Yes 53% - No 44% ....Can Sturgeon take advantage and gain independence for Scotland ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Amazing polling figures from Ipsos-Mori (Poller was closest to the result in 2014)....Show a big 9% lead for those that want independence....

All time high !!!!

The question is how does Sturgeon manipulate another vote sooner rather than later to take advantage ??

Let's be honest this SNP bubble won't last !!!!!...........

Much food for thought for the little ball-breaker and her army..............

These figures must be both uplifting and depressing at the same time !!!.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:49 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Actually I have made my points and you have made yours. In your opinion my view is nonsense but that doesn't make it so. Or else do you deny a vow was made by Brown when it had no place whatsoever in the campaign? Do you deny that the question of independence will merely fade away? Do you deny that a 55-45 split is such a narrow majority that it is an unequivocal no especially when support is swelling and not falling.

Jesus wept.... Rolling Eyes

Total Yes votes - 1,617,989
Total No votes - 2,001,926

Number more No votes than Yes votes - 383,937
Percentage more No votes than Yes votes - 24%

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 4:02 pm

In short, yes, I think 55-45 was conclusive enough, as I'm sure you would have it been 49.9-50.1.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 4:54 pm

Toppy - I could learn to quite like you.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 5:08 pm

superflyweight wrote:Toppy - I could learn to quite like you.  

The independence debate: Bringing Scotsmen and Englishmen together since 2015.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 5:29 pm

superflyweight wrote:Toppy - I could learn to quite like you.  

Don't worry, once someone steers this round to refugess/immigrants I'm sure you'll find reason to hate me again Wink

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 5:30 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:In short, yes, I think 55-45 was conclusive enough, as I'm sure you would have it been 49.9-50.1.

Nowhere near conclusive enough to say the matter is closed for evermore is my point.

Take a gander at polls over the last thirty or forty years and you will see a swelling of support for independence. The trend is moving more in favour of independence having moved from 20% yes in the early 80s to 45% now and figures displaying that the younger generation are more pro-independence so that figure shows no sign of abating.
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Post by Rowley on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 5:32 pm

So what is the SNP's policy, we'll keep having the referendum until we get the result we want. Are they going to ask for best of three soon?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 5:41 pm

Rowley wrote:So what is the SNP's policy, we'll keep having the referendum until we get the result we want. Are they going to ask for best of three soon?

No not at all. The question will continue to be asked as long as the support for it continues to be so strong considering where the support for it once was. To totally ignore a figure approaching almost half the population would be foolish.

If the support falls for independence from the public interest will wain as will the call for referendums. Seems perfectly fair to me.
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 6:00 pm

So, by that logic, if 'yes' wins the next referendum, we'll have multiple follow-up referendums on Scotland rejoining the union, because the support for the union would still be almost half the population.

By heaven, it will never end!

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Post by GSC on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 6:01 pm

They'd probably have independence if they demonstrated a clear and logical plan for after the yes vote. Surely this should be the plan rather than blaming Westminster everytime you get pressed on an issue. It can really only be an effective smokescreen for so long.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 6:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:So, by that logic, if 'yes' wins the next referendum, we'll have multiple follow-up referendums on Scotland rejoining the union, because the support for the union would still be almost half the population.

By heaven, it will never end!

Well look at fox hunting. How many times is that revisited even after mutiple knockbacks until it goes through. So do we have mutiple votes on what suits the government?
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 6:10 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So, by that logic, if 'yes' wins the next referendum, we'll have multiple follow-up referendums on Scotland rejoining the union, because the support for the union would still be almost half the population.

By heaven, it will never end!

Well look at fox hunting. How many times is that revisited even after mutiple knockbacks until it goes through. So do we have mutiple votes on what suits the government?

There's only been one vote on that, hasn't there?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 6:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So, by that logic, if 'yes' wins the next referendum, we'll have multiple follow-up referendums on Scotland rejoining the union, because the support for the union would still be almost half the population.

By heaven, it will never end!

Well look at fox hunting. How many times is that revisited even after mutiple knockbacks until it goes through. So do we have mutiple votes on what suits the government?

There's only been one vote on that, hasn't there?

Well it got banned a decade or so ago but the Tories moved to vote to bring it back but SNP opposition to the bill blocked it but I have no doubt the question will arise again like many such isdues resurface without complaint.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 9:18 pm

GSC wrote:They'd probably have independence if they demonstrated a clear and logical plan for after the yes vote. Surely this should be the plan rather than blaming Westminster everytime you get pressed on an issue. It can really only be an effective smokescreen for so long.

Have a look at the political landscape in Scotland and ask yourself why Labour and Conservative MP's are virtually extinct. The voters in Scotland have had it with Westminster with lies being told to take the country to war, corruption proven to be rife amongst prominent MP's etc etc etc. If you cannot see that being any sort of a problem to people then I despair. Even voters in England are starting to show their contempt as was evident with UKIP taking a larger share of votes at the election. Ask yourself why that is? The same reason - disenchantment of the chief parties in the UK.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 9:22 pm

Also ask yourself why James Corbyn's first port of call (virtually) on becoming Labour leader was Scotland. He realises his party's reputation is in tatters and is trying desperately to rekindle support there. But I suppose that is just a smokescreen and not evidence of how the mighty have fallen in Scotland.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 9:57 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Also ask yourself why James Corbyn's first port of call (virtually) on becoming Labour leader was Scotland. He realises his party's reputation is in tatters and is trying desperately to rekindle support there. But I suppose that is just a smokescreen and not evidence of how the mighty have fallen in Scotland.

He was probably worried people didnt know his name

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 10:34 pm

Just cut through the manure. Sturgeon doesn't want another referendum, she wants independence.

All the while the polls are tight and all the while she can't answer the questions Salmond fumbled through last time around she won't call one.

She is desperately hoping for the UK to exit the EU as a chance to leave pro European no voters no choice it independence.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 2:14 am

Desperation is not the word at all. I would say she is comfortable in the knowledge that as support swells for the SNP and Westminster's governments be they Tory or Labour continue to shoot themselves in the foot that there is no rush as the question is not going away. Granted desperation would set in if there were to be a collapse in the SNP vote share in Scotland and independence polls began showing big falls in support for independence. However, we are nowhere near that stage yet.
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 7:40 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Desperation is not the word at all. I would say she is comfortable in the knowledge that as support swells for the SNP and Westminster's governments be they Tory or Labour continue to shoot themselves in the foot that there is no rush as the question is not going away. Granted desperation would set in if there were to be a collapse in the SNP vote share in Scotland and independence polls began showing big falls in support for independence. However, we are nowhere near that stage yet.

Their support is only swelling because of the absence of impending independence. Despite years of planning Sturgeon and the SNP have no idea how to fund their promises or what currency to use. The Scottish people are daft to support her but they are not daft enough to commit economic suicide.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:06 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:In short, yes, I think 55-45 was conclusive enough, as I'm sure you would have it been 49.9-50.1.

Nowhere near conclusive enough to say the matter is closed for evermore is my point.


And if it had been 49.9:50.1 you would have been happy for Westminster to void the result and say we keep going until we have something more 'conclusive'?

Possibly 100:0 or 0:100 since some Scots apparently never did statistics in school and are too thick to understand how big a margin actually is.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:10 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Rowley wrote:So what is the SNP's policy, we'll keep having the referendum until we get the result we want. Are they going to ask for best of three soon?

No not at all. The question will continue to be asked as long as the support for it continues to be so strong considering where the support for it once was. To totally ignore a figure approaching almost half the population would be foolish.

If the support falls for independence from the public interest will wain as will the call for referendums. Seems perfectly fair to me.

Yay, stats again.

Yes votes: 1.6m
Scottish population: 5.3m
'Yes' as a percentage of population: 30%

To be more fair, Scottish electorate: 4.28m
'Yes' as a percentage of population able to vote: 37%

So, say again how 'almost half' of Scotland voted for independence??

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:12 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So, by that logic, if 'yes' wins the next referendum, we'll have multiple follow-up referendums on Scotland rejoining the union, because the support for the union would still be almost half the population.

By heaven, it will never end!

Well look at fox hunting. How many times is that revisited even after mutiple knockbacks until it goes through. So do we have mutiple votes on what suits the government?

You mean the fox hunting that Sturgeon's SNP said would veto potential Tory attempts to reinstate despite it being legal in Scotland still??

Yep, so honourable that SNP and totally focussed on Scottish issues........ Rolling Eyes

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:13 am

Oh dear. Continuing the insults eh.

Insult all you want but it won't change the fact the independence question still remains highly relevant. Support has been on an upward trend now for four decades so bump your gums as much as you want but we'll be hearing lots more on the independence issue for a very long time yet.
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Post by seanmichaels on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:15 am

They should add a third option if they have another referendum.

Yes
No
Chip on your shoulder

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:16 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Oh dear. Continuing the insults eh.

Insult all you want but it won't change the fact the independence question still remains highly relevant. Support has been on an upward trend now for four decades so bump your gums as much as you want but we'll be hearing lots more on the independence issue for a very long time yet.

As per Pr4wn's request, please refute arguments set out.

Can you?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:17 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So, by that logic, if 'yes' wins the next referendum, we'll have multiple follow-up referendums on Scotland rejoining the union, because the support for the union would still be almost half the population.

By heaven, it will never end!

Well look at fox hunting. How many times is that revisited even after mutiple knockbacks until it goes through. So do we have mutiple votes on what suits the government?

You mean the fox hunting that Sturgeon's SNP said would veto potential Tory attempts to reinstate despite it being legal in Scotland still??

Yep, so honourable that SNP and totally focussed on Scottish issues........ Rolling Eyes

Yup focused on Scottish issues so much more so than Labour and Tories. Why not sneak a look at the political map in Scotland. The SNP have virtually eradicated the tired old Westminster-obsessed parties from Scotland. Why do you think that is I wonder?
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:39 am

Blind ignorance?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:39 am

Also, that example clearly shows hypocrisy and a lack of focus on Scottish issues. Did you just misunderstand..??

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:41 am

If the SNP are genuinely focussing their attentions on the things that really matter day to day in Scotland and which they have control over - Health and Education - and they are not just focussed on political point scoring and constitutional issues - then it's frightening how bad their performance has been.

It really doesn't f*cking matter where your government is based if hospital waiting lists are getting longer, A&E waiting times are getting longer, there's a general under investment in health services, school class sizes are growing, there's teacher shortages, college places are being cut, and children from poor backgrounds are less likely to go to University than those in RUK.

You want to know why the SNP did well in the UK elections? Brilliant PR work and getting their supporters out to vote so that they dominated an otherwise low voter turnout.

They lost the referendum because a healthy majority of the electorate in Scotland (not 5% or even 10% more - 24% more) voted No. They're not winning a referendum any time soon and Sturgeon knows it.

In the meantime - let's focus on improving the things that we can actually do something about!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:45 am

superflyweight wrote:If the SNP are genuinely focussing their attentions on the things that really matter day to day in Scotland and which they have control over - Health and Education - and they are not just focussed on political point scoring and constitutional issues - then it's frightening how bad their performance has been.  


Performance isn't important, apparently, it's solely about whether a party is 'focussed' on Scotland.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:51 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If the SNP are genuinely focussing their attentions on the things that really matter day to day in Scotland and which they have control over - Health and Education - and they are not just focussed on political point scoring and constitutional issues - then it's frightening how bad their performance has been.  


Performance isn't important, apparently, it's solely about whether a party is 'focussed' on Scotland.

That unfortunately is the level of discourse in Scotland at the moment. All they care about is independence and to hell with having to deliver a viable economic plan or showing any competence in governing the country.

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Post by GSC on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 10:04 am

Aye someone said about Swinney on this thread I believe that he'd be happy to live in a cave if it meant independence. For me that's an incredibly dangerous viewpoint for a senior politician to hold.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 10:31 am

superflyweight wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If the SNP are genuinely focussing their attentions on the things that really matter day to day in Scotland and which they have control over - Health and Education - and they are not just focussed on political point scoring and constitutional issues - then it's frightening how bad their performance has been.  


Performance isn't important, apparently, it's solely about whether a party is 'focussed' on Scotland.

That unfortunately is the level of discourse in Scotland at the moment.  All they care about is independence and to hell with having to deliver a viable economic plan or showing any competence in governing the country.

Blue face paint must be as thin on the ground as oxygen in the air.....

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 12:53 pm

I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 1:09 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.

I'm not a Unionist and I think it's generally damaging to label ordinary people (i.e. not politicians) with titles like 'Unionist' or 'Separatist'. The damage is demonstrated by the fact that you have dismissed my genuine concerns about the performance of the Scottish government as a typical complaint from a Unionist. I'm not a Unionist - I just wasn't convinced by the case for independence as presented to me by the Yes campaign.

Instead, it would be more helpful if you would point to any inaccuracies in the claims that I've made about the SNP's performance in government. But you can't - they are demonstrable facts.

I've explained above why the SNP returned so many MP's in the last general election and they'll likely do well in next year's Scottish elections, but in the current political climate in Scotland in which independence supporters are the most politically motivated, success for the SNP isn't necessarily an endorsement of performance in government. It's an endorsement from independence supporters of the SNP's desire for independence.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 1:21 pm

Make a good film this thread with Bill Murray in it..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 1:23 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland.

I'm still waiting for you to show a basic understanding of statistics as at the moment you're clearly just making it all up as you go along.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 1:30 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.
 


I've explained above why the SNP returned so many MP's in the last general election and they'll likely do well in next year's Scottish elections, but in the current political climate in Scotland in which independence supporters are the most politically motivated, success for the SNP isn't necessarily an endorsement of performance in government.  It's an endorsement from independence supporters of the SNP's desire for independence.

No that does not tally at all. The SNP has taken seats that were formerly strongholds of Labour and Conservative and it is not just independence backers evidently voting for them. They won seats in areas that a no vote was passed by fair shares so that is just not the case. Voters be they in independence-seeking Scotland or wherever will vote on how they see their MP's are performing in their area and on representing them to a large degree so it is hardly a sign that the SNP are failing to satisfy the voters especially when many held their seats and increased their majority.

The SNP are not flawless on issues - of course they aren't. However, people here should look to the mammoth flaws in Labour and Conservative. If you feel the SNP are not the party to take Scotland forward sobeit but there is no way it can be claimed Labour or Conservative are a bastion of all that is good in politics. As I have said before - the fact that their vote share is shrinking in other parts of the UK as well backs this theory up - they are tired parties that people are tired of taking this country to wars on lies, cash for questions and a string of other failings.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 1:55 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.
 


I've explained above why the SNP returned so many MP's in the last general election and they'll likely do well in next year's Scottish elections, but in the current political climate in Scotland in which independence supporters are the most politically motivated, success for the SNP isn't necessarily an endorsement of performance in government.  It's an endorsement from independence supporters of the SNP's desire for independence.

No that does not tally at all. The SNP has taken seats that were formerly strongholds of Labour and Conservative and it is not just independence backers evidently voting for them. They won seats in areas that a no vote was passed by fair shares so that is just not the case. Voters be they in independence-seeking Scotland or wherever will vote on how they see their MP's are performing in their area and on representing them to a large degree so it is hardly a sign that the SNP are failing to satisfy the voters especially when many held their seats and increased their majority.

The SNP are not flawless on issues - of course they aren't. However, people here should look to the mammoth flaws in Labour and Conservative. If you feel the SNP are not the party to take Scotland forward sobeit but there is no way it can be claimed Labour or Conservative are a bastion of all that is good in politics. As I have said before - the fact that their vote share is shrinking in other parts of the UK as well backs this theory up - they are tired parties that people are tired of taking this country to wars on lies, cash for questions and a string of other failings.

You're thinking about this in very binary terms.  

Firstly, the referendum and the general election were two very different things.  There was a massive voter turnout in the referendum as opposed to a low turnout in the general election.  Yes voters turned out in the general election and their votes gathered behind the SNP.  No voters turned out in lower numbers and their votes were spread out amongst all of the parties (including the SNP).  

Secondly, just because Tories/Labour = bad, doesn't mean SNP = good.  I'm criticising the SNP because they are the party in government and their record has been poor - demonstrably poorer than Scottish Labour's record in government.  I'll happily criticise Scottish labour's performance in opposition - they're a joke.  The Scottish Conservatives are well run by Ruth Davidson, but I don't agree with many of their policies and they'll struggle to get a serious foothold in Scotland because of their association with their Westminster counterparts.

Criticism of the party in government is what generally happens - it's called political opposition and it's a good thing.  You should try it sometime instead of blind, unthinking allegiance.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 2:07 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.
 


I've explained above why the SNP returned so many MP's in the last general election and they'll likely do well in next year's Scottish elections, but in the current political climate in Scotland in which independence supporters are the most politically motivated, success for the SNP isn't necessarily an endorsement of performance in government.  It's an endorsement from independence supporters of the SNP's desire for independence.

No that does not tally at all. The SNP has taken seats that were formerly strongholds of Labour and Conservative and it is not just independence backers evidently voting for them. They won seats in areas that a no vote was passed by fair shares so that is just not the case. Voters be they in independence-seeking Scotland or wherever will vote on how they see their MP's are performing in their area and on representing them to a large degree so it is hardly a sign that the SNP are failing to satisfy the voters especially when many held their seats and increased their majority.

The SNP are not flawless on issues - of course they aren't. However, people here should look to the mammoth flaws in Labour and Conservative. If you feel the SNP are not the party to take Scotland forward sobeit but there is no way it can be claimed Labour or Conservative are a bastion of all that is good in politics. As I have said before - the fact that their vote share is shrinking in other parts of the UK as well backs this theory up - they are tired parties that people are tired of taking this country to wars on lies, cash for questions and a string of other failings.

Criticism of the party in government is what generally happens - it's called political opposition and it's a good thing.  You should try it sometime instead of blind, unthinking allegiance.

That's not how jingoism works.....

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 3:35 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.
 


I've explained above why the SNP returned so many MP's in the last general election and they'll likely do well in next year's Scottish elections, but in the current political climate in Scotland in which independence supporters are the most politically motivated, success for the SNP isn't necessarily an endorsement of performance in government.  It's an endorsement from independence supporters of the SNP's desire for independence.

No that does not tally at all. The SNP has taken seats that were formerly strongholds of Labour and Conservative and it is not just independence backers evidently voting for them. They won seats in areas that a no vote was passed by fair shares so that is just not the case. Voters be they in independence-seeking Scotland or wherever will vote on how they see their MP's are performing in their area and on representing them to a large degree so it is hardly a sign that the SNP are failing to satisfy the voters especially when many held their seats and increased their majority.

The SNP are not flawless on issues - of course they aren't. However, people here should look to the mammoth flaws in Labour and Conservative. If you feel the SNP are not the party to take Scotland forward sobeit but there is no way it can be claimed Labour or Conservative are a bastion of all that is good in politics. As I have said before - the fact that their vote share is shrinking in other parts of the UK as well backs this theory up - they are tired parties that people are tired of taking this country to wars on lies, cash for questions and a string of other failings.

You're thinking about this in very binary terms.  

Firstly, the referendum and the general election were two very different things.  There was a massive voter turnout in the referendum as opposed to a low turnout in the general election.  Yes voters turned out in the general election and their votes gathered behind the SNP.  No voters turned out in lower numbers and their votes were spread out amongst all of the parties (including the SNP).  

Secondly, just because Tories/Labour = bad, doesn't mean SNP = good.  I'm criticising the SNP because they are the party in government and their record has been poor - demonstrably poorer than Scottish Labour's record in government.  I'll happily criticise Scottish labour's performance in opposition - they're a joke.  The Scottish Conservatives are well run by Ruth Davidson, but I don't agree with many of their policies and they'll struggle to get a serious foothold in Scotland because of their association with their Westminster counterparts.

Criticism of the party in government is what generally happens - it's called political opposition and it's a good thing.  You should try it sometime instead of blind, unthinking allegiance.

Firstly, there was a high turn out in both the referendum AND the general election - perhaps a 10 to 20% lower turnout than the referendum granted but many seats won by the SNP saw swings higher than that percentage that didn't vote in the general election so even if all those who hadn't voted had turned out and voted for Labour or Conservative (in many seats) would not have made a difference to the seats won. As for your claim no voters turned out in lower numbers can you provide evidence please and evidence on whether yes voters also did not vote. Quite irrelevant though as, like I said, winning margins in so many seats were so large it would have made inconsequential difference to the landside result.

As for how poor the SNP have been that is in your opinion and not shared by the majority if we go by the results as those SNP seats that were held then ask why they held their seat if voters are disenchanted with what the SNP are doing. This was a general election and not an independence vote so if disenchantment with the SNP's performance in government was so rife believe you me the SNP vote would have shrunk but it most certainly did not - it grew. They had MP's who held their seat so have been representing their constituents for five years and upwards so that does not show disenchantment with SNP performance either.

Tories and Labour have not just been bad they have been god damn awful. And where have I said that equates to the SNP equalling good? I haven't. They are merely a better option which the public seem to agree with as well. We are in agreement with Labour and Conservatives failings. They are two parties more interested in towing the party line in Westminster - passing bills etc as it is what the bigwigs want rather than voting for what is best for Scotland. That is Labour and Conservatives massive failing and people have had enough hence their vote share dropping like a stone in Scotland.

Of course governments come in for criticism and that is fair enough. However, the alternatives to SNP have been proven in recent years as totally inept hence why Scots won't touch them with a barge pole - if you like, their failings are the SNP's gain. From here on in though we shall see how things go. However, lets not beat around the bush it is now up to Labour and Conservative to have a massive rethink on how they are seen in Scotland or else they will not return to power in Scotland for a very long time.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 3:44 pm

If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling? Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 3:54 pm

superflyweight wrote:If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling?  Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.  

And is the situation any better in England? This suggests not:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949

I am not saying everything is hunky-dory by the way but like I said earlier the alternatives fill me with even less confidence.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:02 pm

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Sorry - was just smashing my head off the keyboard.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:10 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am still awaiting the explanation of the political landscape in Scotland. Multiple digs at the party that virtually own every seat in Scotland just does not add up. If the SNP is so awful as unionists claim then gee whizz the Labour and Tory parties (on performance in the election) evidently are seen as so much worse in Scotland. If people here are so one-eyed about the union and are desperate to maintain it I suggest you look to Labour and Tories gross failing in Scotland. Even members of their own parties have openly admitted they have let Scotland down and must refocus to win back faith. It is common knowledge those parties Mp's that once represented Scotland were mere puppets for the Westminster cause as in would tow the party line first and foremost rather than stand up for what Scots are interested in. The total disillusionment in those parties speak for itself in the election result.

Was it a freak result? No as many SNP seats held their seats from the last election and strengthened their vote share so if those SNP MP's were being seen to being found such an awful job this just would not have happened.

It was no flash in the pan as the SNP's vote share and elected MP's have been consistently growing in numbers year on year for the last decade or so.

These are all pertinent facts that cannot be shrugged off or rubbished no matter how many on here try to do so.
 


I've explained above why the SNP returned so many MP's in the last general election and they'll likely do well in next year's Scottish elections, but in the current political climate in Scotland in which independence supporters are the most politically motivated, success for the SNP isn't necessarily an endorsement of performance in government.  It's an endorsement from independence supporters of the SNP's desire for independence.

No that does not tally at all. The SNP has taken seats that were formerly strongholds of Labour and Conservative and it is not just independence backers evidently voting for them. They won seats in areas that a no vote was passed by fair shares so that is just not the case. Voters be they in independence-seeking Scotland or wherever will vote on how they see their MP's are performing in their area and on representing them to a large degree so it is hardly a sign that the SNP are failing to satisfy the voters especially when many held their seats and increased their majority.

The SNP are not flawless on issues - of course they aren't. However, people here should look to the mammoth flaws in Labour and Conservative. If you feel the SNP are not the party to take Scotland forward sobeit but there is no way it can be claimed Labour or Conservative are a bastion of all that is good in politics. As I have said before - the fact that their vote share is shrinking in other parts of the UK as well backs this theory up - they are tired parties that people are tired of taking this country to wars on lies, cash for questions and a string of other failings.

You're thinking about this in very binary terms.  

Firstly, the referendum and the general election were two very different things.  There was a massive voter turnout in the referendum as opposed to a low turnout in the general election.  Yes voters turned out in the general election and their votes gathered behind the SNP.  No voters turned out in lower numbers and their votes were spread out amongst all of the parties (including the SNP).  

Secondly, just because Tories/Labour = bad, doesn't mean SNP = good.  I'm criticising the SNP because they are the party in government and their record has been poor - demonstrably poorer than Scottish Labour's record in government.  I'll happily criticise Scottish labour's performance in opposition - they're a joke.  The Scottish Conservatives are well run by Ruth Davidson, but I don't agree with many of their policies and they'll struggle to get a serious foothold in Scotland because of their association with their Westminster counterparts.

Criticism of the party in government is what generally happens - it's called political opposition and it's a good thing.  You should try it sometime instead of blind, unthinking allegiance.

Firstly, there was a high turn out in both the referendum AND the general election - perhaps a 10 to 20% lower turnout than the referendum

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:11 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling?  Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.  

And is the situation any better in England? This suggests not:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949

I am not saying everything is hunky-dory by the way but like I said earlier the alternatives fill me with even less confidence.

The ones performing better, you mean?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:14 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling?  Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.  

And is the situation any better in England? This suggests not:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949

I am not saying everything is hunky-dory by the way but like I said earlier the alternatives fill me with even less confidence.

The ones performing better, you mean?

Laugh
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Post by Rowley on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:19 pm

I don't care if our health service and education system is being mismanaged as long as the mismanagement is being done by a Scottish person.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:21 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:If they are doing so well why are the health and education standards falling?  Genuinely interested to know where you think the blame lies for that.  

And is the situation any better in England? This suggests not:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949

I am not saying everything is hunky-dory by the way but like I said earlier the alternatives fill me with even less confidence.

The ones performing better, you mean?

Laugh

Can you explain or justify your response? (TIP: don't use numbers or percentages, you're really struggling there lad)

As Super has pointed out, SNP performance on health and education are far worse north of the border than the Tory/Lab/LD or whatever ones south of the border.

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Post by Rowley on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 4:26 pm

I’m not a particularly nationalist person, I think the idea of taking pride in something as arbitrary as where you fell out of a fanny is, as George Carlin put it, as ridiculous as taking pride in being 6ft 1. However I could only really understand this desire for independence if there was demonstrable evidence things would be better by pursuing this route. Reading this thread there appears to be little evidence to support such a theory. From what I can gather the health service and education system are not particularly great, and there appears to be an £8billion gap in the SNP’s maths nobody seems willing to acknowledge. Throw into this no coherent line about what currency will be used post independence, no real idea about what businesses and employers would leave the country as a consequence of a yes vote and it does kind of strike me as independence for the sake of it rather than on the back of sound economic reasoning.

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