Yes 53% - No 44% ....Can Sturgeon take advantage and gain independence for Scotland ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Amazing polling figures from Ipsos-Mori (Poller was closest to the result in 2014)....Show a big 9% lead for those that want independence....

All time high !!!!

The question is how does Sturgeon manipulate another vote sooner rather than later to take advantage ??

Let's be honest this SNP bubble won't last !!!!!...........

Much food for thought for the little ball-breaker and her army..............

These figures must be both uplifting and depressing at the same time !!!.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:20 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:No it isn't! Who is to say that the Tories are any better than anybody else?

Sure, you clearly think so but others might not.

Personally, I think that any party that lets such an incompetent as Iain Duncan Smith anywhere near power needs to look at themselves. The Scots simply want to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs. That's not rose-tinted, illogical or wrong.

In fact, it's perfectly logical.

As Super has relentlessly pointed out, on the two major devolved powers of health and education, SNP performance north of the border has been significantly worse than Lab/LD/Con performance south of it.

Saying you'd prefer to be run by the person actively doing the worse job on the same issue off the same footing is not logical. Or are you saying that Scots wanting " to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs" is their way of saying their thick unhealthy slobs who don't care about education and healthcare.....?? Because that seems to be the only way you could rationalise poor performance with shared beliefs/interests.

The NHS isn't exactly thriving over here is it ???.......

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:22 pm

Saying something is so doesn't make it so. Why are so many English students heading over the border to Scotland if the education on offer there is inferior? And walk around Edinburgh and students with English accents are clearly prevalent. That does not quite to education in Scotland being inferior.
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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:29 pm

You're missing the point entirely.

Firstly, comparing a devolved power whose purse strings are controlled by a government elsewhere and that government itself is not comparing like-for-like.

Secondly, wanting a government that is in tune with your own beliefs is a perfectly understandable sentiment. You surely have to concede that. I'm not saying that preferring to be run by someone less competent is logical, please don't put words into my mouth. All I'm saying that feeling the Scots feeling distant from the current government is perfectly understandable.

The Scots generally don't believe that prosperity for the few should be achieved by allowing the many to suffer. The Tories do, as their cuts clearly illustrate. Therefore the feeling of disenfranchisement is perfectly logical, despite you not agreeing with it.

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:29 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Saying something is so doesn't make it so. Why are so many English students heading over the border to Scotland if the education on offer there is inferior? And walk around Edinburgh and students with English accents are clearly prevalent.  That does not quite to education in Scotland being inferior.

Big difference between university education and school education systems. The standard of education and the curriculum at a University is ultimately determined by the University itself - the standard of education and the curriculum at school is ultimately determined by the government.

Why so many English at Scottish universities - the tuition fees are cheaper (although not free to RUK residents as free tuition is reserved for Scots and EU residents), living costs are cheaper than London, and Scottish universities offer 4 year undergraduate degrees.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:No it isn't! Who is to say that the Tories are any better than anybody else?

Sure, you clearly think so but others might not.

Personally, I think that any party that lets such an incompetent as Iain Duncan Smith anywhere near power needs to look at themselves. The Scots simply want to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs. That's not rose-tinted, illogical or wrong.

In fact, it's perfectly logical.

As Super has relentlessly pointed out, on the two major devolved powers of health and education, SNP performance north of the border has been significantly worse than Lab/LD/Con performance south of it.

Saying you'd prefer to be run by the person actively doing the worse job on the same issue off the same footing is not logical. Or are you saying that Scots wanting " to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs" is their way of saying their thick unhealthy slobs who don't care about education and healthcare.....?? Because that seems to be the only way you could rationalise poor performance with shared beliefs/interests.

The NHS isn't exactly thriving over here is it ???.......

Performing better than in Scotland though, please read what Superfly has posted on the matter.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:31 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Saying something is so doesn't make it so.

Ironic comment.

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:32 pm

Pr4wn wrote:You're missing the point entirely.

Firstly, comparing a devolved power whose purse strings are controlled by a government elsewhere and that government itself is not comparing like-for-like.

Secondly, wanting a government that is in tune with your own beliefs is a perfectly understandable sentiment. You surely have to concede that. I'm not saying that preferring to be run by someone less competent is logical, please don't put words into my mouth. All I'm saying that feeling the Scots feeling distant from the current government is perfectly understandable.

The Scots generally don't believe that prosperity for the few should be achieved by allowing the many to suffer. The Tories do, as their cuts clearly illustrate. Therefore the feeling of disenfranchisement is perfectly logical, despite you not agreeing with it.

Not really a valid point I'm afraid, Scots government underspent their budget and invested less on education and health per capita when compared against rUK.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:33 pm

Pr4wn wrote:You're missing the point entirely.

Firstly, comparing a devolved power whose purse strings are controlled by a government elsewhere and that government itself is not comparing like-for-like.

Secondly, wanting a government that is in tune with your own beliefs is a perfectly understandable sentiment. You surely have to concede that. I'm not saying that preferring to be run by someone less competent is logical, please don't put words into my mouth. All I'm saying that feeling the Scots feeling distant from the current government is perfectly understandable.

The Scots generally don't believe that prosperity for the few should be achieved by allowing the many to suffer. The Tories do, as their cuts clearly illustrate. Therefore the feeling of disenfranchisement is perfectly logical, despite you not agreeing with it.

Those purse strings are lose enough to fund free tertiary education and free prescriptions.....there's penty of cash their obviously, ergo it's how the Scots gov't is spending it that's the issue, not how much Westminster is bunging it.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:34 pm

Neither country's government deserves any control over education anyway...

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:34 pm

Super beat me to it......

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:35 pm

I wasn't comparing them.......

But the British NHS is suffering from chronic lack of beds, underfunding, closures and an all round lack of morale......It's nothing to be proud of..

and stop being so obtuse it's like debating a spoilt teenager..

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:36 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:

As Super has relentlessly pointed out, on the two major devolved powers of health and education, SNP performance north of the border has been significantly worse than Lab/LD/Con performance south of it.

Saying you'd prefer to be run by the person actively doing the worse job on the same issue off the same footing is not logical. Or are you saying that Scots wanting " to be governed by people whose beliefs are more in tune with theirs" is their way of saying their thick unhealthy slobs who don't care about education and healthcare.....?? Because that seems to be the only way you could rationalise poor performance with shared beliefs/interests.

North of the border is a devolved Government.  South of the border is the straight up UK government (not an English devolved one, a Welsh devolved one, a Northern Irish devolved one or the Scottish one) the British one - with most of the keys to the financial kingdom, if you use a metaphor that might seem suitable.  

Devolved Powers aren't enough to create an Independent Nation that could fully integrate tax, health, education, agriculture, tourism etc into a more cohesive whole.  Thus the cry for Nationhood... to acquire such power to combine all under one roof.  At the moment it is only strands of 'self-governance', heavily influenced by the foibles (and political intentions) of a Larger Branch of Governance elsewhere.  
Think GB v Europe debate.  A very similar one it is too.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I wasn't comparing them.......


You were, implicitly, whilst simultaneously ignoring the point that was being made.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:39 pm

I see unemployment has gone up for the third month in a row.........

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 2:01 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Saying something is so doesn't make it so. Why are so many English students heading over the border to Scotland if the education on offer there is inferior? And walk around Edinburgh and students with English accents are clearly prevalent.  That does not quite to education in Scotland being inferior.

Big difference between university education and school education systems.  The standard of education and the curriculum at a University is ultimately determined by the University itself - the standard of education and the curriculum at school is ultimately determined by the government.

Why so many English at Scottish universities - the tuition fees are cheaper (although not free to RUK residents as free tuition is reserved for Scots and EU residents), living costs are cheaper than London, and Scottish universities offer 4 year undergraduate degrees.  

But is the education they get worse than south of the border? Any students aiming for degrees will not go to universities offering lesser chance of obtaining their degree regardless of cost. Well some will but certainly some will not.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 2:07 pm

I think you'd be surprised, Craig.

I wouldn't be judging standards of education on universities, anyway.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 2:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see unemployment has gone up for the third month in a row.........

Is that a contribution to this thread?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 2:12 pm

It's my thread....Just thought you might be interested.....

Don't be so sensitive...

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 2:12 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Saying something is so doesn't make it so. Why are so many English students heading over the border to Scotland if the education on offer there is inferior? And walk around Edinburgh and students with English accents are clearly prevalent.  That does not quite to education in Scotland being inferior.

Big difference between university education and school education systems.  The standard of education and the curriculum at a University is ultimately determined by the University itself - the standard of education and the curriculum at school is ultimately determined by the government.

Why so many English at Scottish universities - the tuition fees are cheaper (although not free to RUK residents as free tuition is reserved for Scots and EU residents), living costs are cheaper than London, and Scottish universities offer 4 year undergraduate degrees.  

But is the education they get worse than south of the border? Any students aiming for degrees will not go to universities offering lesser chance of obtaining their degree regardless of cost. Well some will but certainly some will not.

Jesus wept..... Rolling Eyes

What's the point??!!

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 2:14 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Saying something is so doesn't make it so. Why are so many English students heading over the border to Scotland if the education on offer there is inferior? And walk around Edinburgh and students with English accents are clearly prevalent.  That does not quite to education in Scotland being inferior.

Big difference between university education and school education systems.  The standard of education and the curriculum at a University is ultimately determined by the University itself - the standard of education and the curriculum at school is ultimately determined by the government.

Why so many English at Scottish universities - the tuition fees are cheaper (although not free to RUK residents as free tuition is reserved for Scots and EU residents), living costs are cheaper than London, and Scottish universities offer 4 year undergraduate degrees.  

But is the education they get worse than south of the border? Any students aiming for degrees will not go to universities offering lesser chance of obtaining their degree regardless of cost. Well some will but certainly some will not.

I'm really not sure what your point is. I haven't criticised the standard of university education in Scotland anywhere. The criticism is of the system which cuts college places, increases school class sizes and which has a detrimental effect on the number of people from poor backgrounds going to University.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 6:28 pm

So who do we credit for the university system being not being up for criticism then? Is that a thumbs up for something the SNP have got right then?
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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 6:47 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:So who do we credit for the university system being not being up for criticism then? Is that a thumbs up for something the SNP have got right then?

laughing

CC - This post is akin to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nifdpFOY1FQ

at 1:55 onwards.

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 9:53 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:So who do we credit for the university system being not being up for criticism then? Is that a thumbs up for something the SNP have got right then?

As I've said above, the University education system has very little to do with the government (albeit the SNP are worryingly having a bloody good go at politicizing University appointments) and the success of individual Universities tends to be down to that University.

By your rationale, the UK government would be taking credit for the success of Cambridge (ranked third best university in the world) and Oxford (ranked 5th) - by comparison the highest ranked Scottish university is Edinburgh at 17th - when in actual fact, the UK government and the Scottish governments have negligible impact on the success of those universities.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 10:29 pm

I wonder where Prince William and Harry were educated? St Andrews I do believe. And saying we have a University ranked 17th best on the planet is hardly a disgrace for a country some here (sorry many here) see not capable of making independence work. I would hazard a guess there are many independent countries in the world without a University ranked as high as Scotland so I would say that shines favourably in our favour.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 10:58 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11481010/SNPs-whopping-exaggeration-on-oil-revenues-laid-bare.html

Certainly not capable of making independence work with the SNP doing the planning!

"In one of the biggest calumnies ever attempted in British politics they overestimated the value of Scotland’s black gold by a whopping THIRTEEN times."

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 11:22 pm

And right from a unionist newspaper article I see.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 11:32 pm

The Independent Office of Budget Responsibility.

Originally constituted in shadow form by the Conservatives as opposition in 2009.

Chairman: Robert Chote, onetime columnist at The Independent.




Maybe it's the definition of the word 'Independent' that people are having difficulty with?

Because there is one thing the OBR isn't, when you look through its history and working structures, and that is 'Independent'. Wink

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 11:51 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:And right from a unionist newspaper article I see.

"because as the independent Office of Budget Responsibility now tells us..."

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 1:10 am

I notice that the Guardian doesn't look at the potential elsewhere though. Scotland supplies 25% of all of Europe's wind energy I do believe and a similar amount from wave energy. Oil is not all that Scotland has. The whisky trade, textiles, medical research among the very best in the world, one of the biggest festivals in the world, very popular tourist destination and a heck of a lot more.
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 1:15 am

No one is saying that oil is all that Scotland has, but a 7 billion shortfall is rather a large hole in the projected finances of an independent Scotland.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 1:51 am

Ah so the oil (prior to the referendum) and it's importance was being downplayed by the no sayers but now that the bottom has fallen out of the oil price market then oil becomes a big issue.

Besides how many independent countries across the globe do just fine without having any oil?
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Post by superflyweight on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 10:05 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wonder where Prince William and Harry were educated? St Andrews I do believe. And saying we have a University ranked 17th best on the planet is hardly a disgrace for a country some here (sorry many here) see not capable of making independence work. I would hazard a guess there are many independent countries in the world without a University ranked as high as Scotland so I would say that shines favourably in our favour.

You're either missing the point entirely or being deliberately obtuse.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 10:15 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Ah so the oil  (prior to the referendum) and it's importance was being downplayed by the no sayers but now that the bottom has fallen out of the oil price market then oil becomes a big issue.

Besides how many independent countries across the globe  do just fine without having any oil?

No - the No campaign simply pointed out that the Yes campaign were being overly generous in their estimates on the value of oil and that oil is a volatile commodity. This has subsequently been proven to be entirely true.

Yes, Scotland could do well without oil, but not following the SNP economic models (which placed oil as a key cornerstone of the economy). We also have the problem that the less profitable the oil industry is, the greater the impact of eventual decommissioning becomes (the cost of decommissioning will be in the billions).

As I've said in a previous post, Scotland could be a successful independent country, but there has to be a realisation that the current economic basis (as put forward by the SNP) doesn't add up and that there is a need for an honest examination of what the country would look like post independence.

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 10:33 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wonder where Prince William and Harry were educated?

At the risk of rubbishing the last credible bit of guff you have come out with, Prince Harry went to Sandhurst after his Eton education.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 11:03 am

See Corbyn has had to back down on Trident due to Trade Union pressure. Exactly as predicted.

Corbyn is more principalled (not being facetious or critical here) than any SNP bod and he's had to face the harsh reality of protecting tens of thousands of jobs. Just another issue the SNP are happy to over-look whilst drumming up support among the blue-painted knuckle-draggers.


Super - how's the head? Or, more accurately, how's that brick wall looking which you've been banging it at relenlessly??

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 11:12 am

At the end of the day as passionate as Caledonian Craig is he doesn't have to put up with the consequences.

I live in Scotland. It is our local services that are suffering while the SNP muck about with new indy ref proposals.

They preach about food banks and Westmisnter Austerity whilst paying money hand over fist to keep things like T in the Park going?

http://www.scotsman.com/what-s-on/music/taxpayer-funding-kept-t-in-the-park-in-scotland-1-3901311

So T in the park gets subsidiezed by the Scottish Tax Payer whilst Police Scotland gets underfunded so badly that people bleed out in car crashes at the side of the road and vulnerable old ladies go missing in the streets of Glasgow?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33480569

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34354999

Our services are being eroded left right and center all the while paying money hand over fist to build a Scottish Space port?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/science-technology/nicola-sturgeon-says-spaceport-proposal-4616917

And lets not forget Dundee's V&A Museum, another project spiraling out of control being funded by the Tax Payer whilst people are starving....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-30981350

The SNP are ruining Scotland, whilst blaming Westminster. They are using their money on pointless projects whilst food banks are helping thousands of Scots.

I wonder why? Perhaps food banks are the most effective weapon they can use on Westminster?

They are the worst kind of politicians. Whinging about the reduction of the Barnett Formula whilst not using their own tax raising powers they have themselves.
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Post by superflyweight on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 1:36 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:See Corbyn has had to back down on Trident due to Trade Union pressure.  Exactly as predicted.

Corbyn is more principalled (not being facetious or critical here) than any SNP bod and he's had to face the harsh reality of protecting tens of thousands of jobs.  Just another issue the SNP are happy to over-look whilst drumming up support among the blue-painted knuckle-draggers.


Super - how's the head? Or, more accurately, how's that brick wall looking which you've been banging it at relenlessly??

It's not looking good and its starting to look like it might affect the value of my property. Michelle Thomson (Google her) will be along to make an offer soon.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 2:03 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Ah so the oil  (prior to the referendum) and it's importance was being downplayed by the no sayers but now that the bottom has fallen out of the oil price market then oil becomes a big issue.

Besides how many independent countries across the globe  do just fine without having any oil?

No - the No campaign simply pointed out that the Yes campaign were being overly generous in their estimates on the value of oil and that oil is a volatile commodity.  This has subsequently been proven to be entirely true.  

Yes, Scotland could do well without oil, but not following the SNP economic models (which placed oil as a key cornerstone of the economy).  We also have the problem that the less profitable the oil industry is, the greater the impact of eventual decommissioning becomes (the cost of decommissioning will be in the billions).

As I've said in a previous post, Scotland could be a successful independent country, but there has to be a realisation that the current economic basis (as put forward by the SNP) doesn't add up and that there is a need for an honest examination of what the country would look like post independence.

If people here wonder what my beef is here and why I continue the debate it is quite simple really.

For people to adamantly claim Scotland could not survive and thrive as an independent country is a hurtful standpoint. It is a blatant way of labelling Scots in general as a bunch of imbeciles it really is. I have pinpointed what Scotland has and it has more to offer than many already independent countries doing alright for themselves. Look back through history and the innovations and inventions to come out of Scotland and it tells you there are many very smart articulate people in the country. It has had many politicians who have been prominent and respected and still does so you will never ever convince me independence couldn't work.

I have also made my point before about Westminster governments killing our own soldiers by taking them into phoney wars. As for trident debate - do me a favour? Our nuclear deterrent is so inconsequential it really is as if a nuclear war occurred in no way shape or form would trident come to our rescue. We have so few and it is so less powerful it is akin to a pea shooter compared to other countries arsenal. Once one bomb hits the ground mankind is finished regardless of trident.

Many here are solely using the SNP as a reason to rule out independence. Fair enough but that is thinking very short-term. The SNP was solely formed for one purpose - to gain independence. If that is achieved the party will be disbanded and new parties formed from the fall-out and perhaps then what was Scottish Labour and Conservative parties may wake up and realise their duty is to serve the Scottish people and not be Westminster puppets. In short the SNP will either have one short term in an independent country before setting a general election and disbanding. Therefore painting what SNP envisages for Scotland is just wrong as aside from a few months new Scotland would be governed by other parties with their own ideals.

As I said we here on this thread will never agree. Many enjoy living under the thumb whilst me, we'll I envisage Scotland being able to stand proud as an independent country able to government itself and stand for its own ideals tether than serving a cause that is out-dated and run its course.
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 2:24 pm

"For people to adamantly claim Scotland could not survive and thrive as an independent country is a hurtful standpoint. It is a blatant way of labelling Scots in general as a bunch of imbeciles it really is."

No, I'm labeling the SNP as a bunch of imbeciles, not Scots in general.

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Post by GSC on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 2:41 pm

At this point I'm beginning to wonder if he's missing the point intentionally.

People aren't saying they couldn't go Independent and thrive. They're saying this SNP government has not demonstrated the competency to govern effectively (certainly no more than the demons in Westminster), nor the ability to lay out plans that make sense as to how Scotland will thrive.

As for the we'll swan off when we've forced through independence. Is that not the most dangerous part of all. Says to me that they couldn't care less about what independent country they create, as long as its independent.

And from your posts and that I begin to get the sense that its independence at all costs, which is great if you live in London, or Los Angeles etc, probably not so much when you live in Scotland and your livelihood and living standards on the line.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 2:44 pm

superflyweight wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:See Corbyn has had to back down on Trident due to Trade Union pressure.  Exactly as predicted.

Corbyn is more principalled (not being facetious or critical here) than any SNP bod and he's had to face the harsh reality of protecting tens of thousands of jobs.  Just another issue the SNP are happy to over-look whilst drumming up support among the blue-painted knuckle-draggers.


Super - how's the head? Or, more accurately, how's that brick wall looking which you've been banging it at relenlessly??

It's not looking good and its starting to look like it might affect the value of my property.  Michelle Thomson (Google her) will be along to make an offer soon.  

She the SNP MP that said one thing but built a career and lifestyle doing the opposite (scewing the hard up out of their homes)??

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 3:33 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:See Corbyn has had to back down on Trident due to Trade Union pressure.  Exactly as predicted.

Corbyn is more principalled (not being facetious or critical here) than any SNP bod and he's had to face the harsh reality of protecting tens of thousands of jobs.  Just another issue the SNP are happy to over-look whilst drumming up support among the blue-painted knuckle-draggers.


Super - how's the head? Or, more accurately, how's that brick wall looking which you've been banging it at relenlessly??

It's not looking good and its starting to look like it might affect the value of my property.  Michelle Thomson (Google her) will be along to make an offer soon.  

She the SNP MP that said one thing but built a career and lifestyle doing the opposite (scewing the hard up out of their homes)??

Yep - before she was an MP am sure she was also a spokeswoman for "Business For Scotland" who were quite vocally pro-independence during the referendum. A lot of their output was utter guff.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 3:48 pm

GSC wrote:At this point I'm beginning to wonder if he's missing the point intentionally.

People aren't saying they couldn't go Independent and thrive. They're saying this SNP government has not demonstrated the competency to govern effectively (certainly no more than the demons in Westminster), nor the ability to lay out plans that make sense as to how Scotland will thrive.

As for the we'll swan off when we've forced through independence. Is that not the most dangerous part of all. Says to me that they couldn't care less about what independent country they create, as long as its independent.

And from your posts and that I begin to get the sense that its independence at all costs, which is great if you live in London, or Los Angeles etc, probably not so much when you live in Scotland and your livelihood and living standards on the line.

Home is where the heart is so with the greatest respects leave off as I can categorically day that sometime in the coming months I shall return home to live in Scotland.

As for the SNP it is in their mandate that they will be disbanded. Either way even if you want to be ultra-sceptical and say they will renege on that then elections will still take place. If, as so many on here are sure it is the case, that SNP only get so much support for pushing for independence that cause will be gone. Therefore voters will desert and vote for new formed Labour or Conservative or such-like with their own plans on how to govern an independent Scotland.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 4:09 pm

No, home is way your tax bill lands.

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Post by GSC on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 4:10 pm

So the SNPs plan for post independence is to slink off into the sunset.

Sounds like the responsible and far thinking party id want leading the case for independence. "Well... Good Luck".
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 5:09 pm

What evidence is there, out of curiosity, that the SNP plan to disband after independence (if achieved)?

The nearest I can find is this:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13086603.SNP_denies_it_will_disband_after_independence_poll/

It's the SNP denying rumours that they will disband after independence; the link is from a few years ago.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 5:28 pm

I've been reluctant to comment on this point duty as I'm not entirely sure what their stated position is. I know they were initially a single issue party and that the intention was that they would disband on achieving independence, but things have moved on considerably since then and they are now a party of government and I'm not sure that they would not disband.

If they were to achieve independence and did disband, I don't see any of their current major players disappearing off into the sunset and would imagine that at the least they would form a new party and that new party would (riding the crest of the independence wave) sweep to power.

Longer term could be more interesting as the SNP are a fairly diverse bunch ranging from "Tartan Tories" on the right, to the social democrats currently at the head of the party in the middle and outright socialists on the left. Would be a difficult party to control once the common goal of independence has been achieved.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 30 Sep 2015, 11:27 pm

The point is superflyweight people would choose who they wanted to vote for via election. Now throughout this thread all we have heard from most about incompetence of the SNP and that people now only vote for them due to the push for independence then people here should have no fear as they'd lose the pulling power of independence as that would already be achieved.

The crux here is people who want independence for Scotland - the only way that will ever happen is through voting for the SNP. Labour and Conservative will in no way ever give Scotland independence. So there you have the choices. Vote SNP for independence for Scotland and then wait for the elections and Scots can vote for whoever they want after that. Failing that live under the thumb of Westminster by a government feathering it's own nest and looking at Scottish issues as trivialities whilst being told you are not fit for independence.
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Post by seanmichaels on Thu 01 Oct 2015, 10:20 am

CaledonianCraig wrote: Labour and Conservative will in no way ever give Scotland independence. So there you have the choices. Vote SNP for independence for Scotland and then wait for the elections and Scots can vote for whoever they want after that.

I am sorry but you are either ignorant or stupid, or both. The conservatives gave Scotland the right to Independence barely a year ago.

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Post by GSC on Thu 01 Oct 2015, 10:21 am

Independence at cost sounds great. Until you actually have to deal with the fallout and it's your job under threat, taxes going up, welfare going down, erosion of standard of public services etc because the SNP didn't have a cohesive plan, nor are they actually competent in government, for how to grow an independent Scotland.

If a party puts forward such a cohesive and clear plan then Scotland should vote for independence. But the SNP has not done that and the heart cant overrule the head on such a momentous decision.
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