F1 Italian GP Thread - Spoilers of Qualifying & Race

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Post by Fernando on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 10:17 am

Formula 1 returns to one of its most historic venues for what many will hope is not the final time - the Autodromo Nazionale Monza, home of the Italian Grand Prix. A race with a lineage going back to 1921, at a venue that has stood the test of time - the home race for the mighty Scuderia Ferrari, the most powerful and influential team in the sport. So why, in the wide, wide world of sports, is the Italian Grand Prix in jeopardy of losing its place on the Formula 1 calendar?

True to form, Formula One Group supremo Bernie Ecclestone has publicly dismissed the future of the event while trying to negotiate more money out of the Italian GP organizers. These tactics are crass, and not exactly new - and they're generally effective, even if they come at the expense of the race organizers and the fans who pay to see the events. If these negotiations completely fall through, however, the Italian Grand Prix may move out of Monza, perhaps to Imola, former home of the San Marino Grand Prix. Or worse, it could get removed from the calendar outright.

And for a perennial favorite among drivers, teams, and fans alike, a historic and celebrated event that's been a part of every Formula One championship season - a boast that can't be made by the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa or even the Monaco Grand Prix - its absence would be an unwelcome disappointment, especially given that the German Grand Prix was cancelled this season, the Canadian Grand Prix has been cancelled in recent years for similar reasons, and a French Grand Prix hasn't been held since ITV was the UK's F1 broadcaster.

And Monza isn't the only Italian institution of racing facing an uncertain future in F1. It'd been about two years since multiple blowouts during the British Grand Prix drew skepticism over Pirelli's competence as a tyre manufacturer for F1. Pirelli have come back under the intense scrutiny of the F1 world following two high-speed blowouts during the Belgian Grand Prix weekend. Nico Rosberg avoided a disastrous Friday practice shunt at Blanchimont when his right-rear failed at over 300 km/h. Sebastian Vettel, however, suffered a major blow to his title hopes when his tyre failed exiting Radillon while running in a comfortable third place. A passionate and irate Vettel launched a scathing criticism of Pirelli after the race, out of concerns over the safety and integrity of Formula 1's control tyres. That criticism also launched counter-criticism of whether or not repeated abuses of track limits at Spa accelerated the failures.

Pirelli tyres will be under immense scrutiny again in Monza, the fastest track on the F1 calendar, and how well they're able to handle the load and stress of the circuit's many high-speed corners. To add to the intrigue, Pirelli committed to bringing the soft and medium compounds to Monza, rather than the medium and hard compounds of recent years. Paul Hembrey plans to release the results of the investigation into Vettel's tyre failure this weekend. With Pirelli's current supply contract ending after 2016, this weekend could be critical to their future in the sport.

Last year, Lewis Hamilton emerged victorious in Monza after his Mercedes teammate Nico Rosberg threw away his chances of victory with two botched entries into the first chicane. This year, the Mercedes duo are, as they've been all season, the favorites to win big in Italy. They enjoyed a trouble-free Belgian Grand Prix, their unique low-drag aero package proving effective at Spa-Francorchamps. Many decades ago, Fangio and Moss made the infamous W196 "Type Monza" streamliner a legend around the mythical banked oval at Monza. Today, the current-generation of Mercedes aces look to continue the legacy in their respective bids for the World Championship.

Vettel (pictured above) is starting the Italian GP for the first time in Ferrari red this weekend, but the four-time champion is no stranger to success for Italian teams at Monza. Seven years ago, a 21-year-old Vettel stunned the Formula 1 world when he won his first Grand Prix from pole position driving for Scuderia Toro Rosso - whose lineage extends from that of perennial underdogs Minardi. Now 28 years old and a three-time winner of the Italian GP, Vettel will look to rebound from the disappointment of his Belgian GP weekend and replicate the Monza successes of his hero Michael Schumacher, who won in his first start at Monza for Ferrari back in 1996 - before accumulating a record five victories, all with Ferrari. A great start off the line like the one he had in Budapest will certainly help. Kimi Raikkonen, now under contract through the end of next year, will also be motivated to end the 2015 season on much more competitive terms with his teammate - but he's yet to win at Monza in his storied career.

Continuing on the thread of uncertain futures in F1, Romain Grosjean swooped in and took a popular third-place finish at Spa for Lotus, his first podium finish in two years, at the site of his lowest point in the sport in 2012. It was a great moment for Grosjean that Sunday in Belgium. But since then, the Enstone-based Lotus F1 Team for whom he drives has had a multitude of setbacks that nearly threatened their chances of even making it to Monza. Impounds, legal actions, withheld sponsorship money, unpaid wages and tyre supply fees - the financial issues that have dogged Lotus for the last two seasons have reared their ugly heads again, just as the team had turned a corner competitively.

It seems a savior is on the horizon, though, as multiple outlets have linked Renault to purchase the constructor back from Genii Capital. It's no Quantum pipedream, but there's still a ways to go before it's finalized - and the sooner a deal can get done, the better it will be for everyone at the Enstone factory - especially Grosjean, who would be a slam dunk to lead a revived Renault F1 Team up the order. Another podium finish at Monza will certainly help matters - the Mercedes-powered E23 has excelled at the high-speed circuits this season, and Monza is the prime example of such a circuit.

Williams finished third and fourth in Monza a year ago, with Felipe Massa standing on the podium in a very popular result for the former Ferrari driver - and he along with Valtteri Bottas will once again be among the "best of the rest" in the slippery, lightning-fast FW36. Nico Hulkenberg will also be one to watch, as he'll look to celebrate his new two-year deal at Force India by breaking through with his first F1 podium finish - at a track where teammate Sergio Perez nearly won three years ago for Sauber.

Worth watching will be how well Red Bull drivers Daniel Ricciardo and Daniil Kvyat can drive through the field at Monza, as the two will take engine change-induced grid penalties before the race. McLaren Honda's slow, painful progression will be of interest as well - it is expected to be another poor outing for a team that is sorely lacking in the power department. There are serious questions over two-time Monza winner Fernando Alonso and teammate Jenson Button, and their futures not just at McLaren, but in Formula 1 as a whole. And another sorry outing for the former champions will only stoke the fires of speculation that now burn as hot as an overheated and underpowered Honda PU.

Everything is still to play for in the Italian Grand Prix, a race that has produced so many memorable moments in its amazing history. Let's hope these aren't the last great moments at Monza we'll be seeing this weekend.


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Post by Fernando on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 10:18 am

Bottas & Massa staying at Williams.

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Post by Guest on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 12:51 pm

Lewis has new blonde hair Laugh

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Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 1:15 pm

Meh. I'm not expecting any surprises unless the Mercs fluff their starts, or it rains.

Business as usual, with the only real interest coming from the midfield battles.



Then again, the last time I said that we got Hungary...


John wrote:
Lewis has new blonde hair Laugh

Sexxxayyyy... Wink He's obviously trying to look more like Nico... Laugh
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Post by Fernando on Fri 04 Sep 2015, 2:34 pm

LIKELY 2016 F1 CALENDAR CHANGE
April 3 - Australia

April 10 - China

April 24 - Bahrain

May 1 - Russia

May 15 - Spain

May 29 - Monaco

June 12 - Canada

June 26 - Britain

July 3 - Austria

July 17 - Europe (Baku)

July 31 - Germany

August 7 - Hungary

August 28 - Belgium (potentially September 4)

September 4 - Italy (potentially September 11)

September 18 - Singapore (potentially September 25)

October 9 - Japan

October 23 - USA
October 30 - Mexico

November 13 - Brazil

November 27 - Abu Dhabi
December 4/11 - Malaysia

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Post by Guest on Fri 04 Sep 2015, 5:48 pm

Abu Dhabi will be the season ending race

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Post by GSC on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:26 am

Mercs further ahead than before, pretty ominous for the rest of the year. Ricciardo on his 3rd engine of the weekend. Said last year the engine rule could get farcical.
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Post by Guest on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:43 am

Knew it was a two horse race anyway, even before this engine upgrade, so nothing has changed.

I think for a competitive 2016, Bernie is pushing for Renault to take over 65% of Lotus. It would then hopefully mean that Renault, formerly Lotus, would use Renault engines for 2016, allowing Red Bull to use Mercedes engines next year. Lewis Hamilton has already stated it would be a huge mistake allowing Red Bull to use Mercedes engines, but for the actual competitive show, it would definitely spice things back up.

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Post by GSC on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:42 pm

Rosberg has to revert back to the pre upgrade spa engine.

So this is over as a contest
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Post by Guest on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:52 pm

Doesn't change much for Nico. He is usually slower than Lewis anyway & will still be the second quickest guy out there. Not necessarily over as a contest, I know they would of tested this new engines reliability, but you never know, until it's survived through a full race. At least Nico knows he's got a reliable engine under him now, whereas Lewis will have a slight doubt. Maybe, I'm wrong.

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Post by GSC on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:25 pm

Verstappen doesn't set a time, which should see him start about 7th on the grid
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Post by Guest on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:56 pm

Actually, now knowing Rosbergs engine has been running since Canada, has put him at a massive disadvantage.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:16 pm

Interesting quali result.

7th consecutive pole for Lewis...not so surprising, but the margin is (just 2 tenths)...especially given Kimi and Vettel are the ones behind him.

Think Rosberg did pretty well to end up 4th and only 3 tenths behind, given he was running an old engine.

Considering Mercedes used up a bunch of development tokens on their engine, you'd have expected Lewis to be a lot more dominant. Is this is the start of the the Ferrari fightback?

Anyway sets things up for an interesting start tomorrow. The famously fast-starting Fezzas could well get the jump on Hamilton and the Mercedes doesn't work so well when it has other cars in front of it.

Ridiculous number of penalties handed out this time round. You have to ask what is the point of awarding 40 or 50-place grid penalties? There has to be a better way of doing this.
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Post by Guest on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:39 pm

Brundle suggested that Mercedes had turned down Lewis' engine for a precaution. I think the two tenths difference probably backs that up, seeing as before Rosberg had an issue, the gap was larger between the Mercedes & Ferrari. Wouldn't surprise me if both Mercedes endure engine problems tomorrow, Rosberg through running his old engine into the ground & Lewis' new engine developing an issue, as its untested in a race scenario.

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Post by GSC on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:13 pm

Coulthard made a good point, if Rosbergs issue wasn't isolated to his engine, they'd have pulled Lewis' too. I wouldn't make engine issues likely for either.
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Post by GSC on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:13 pm

Williams disappearance has been a disappointment this year.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 12:10 am

GSC wrote:Coulthard made a good point, if Rosbergs issue wasn't isolated to his engine, they'd have pulled Lewis' too. I wouldn't make engine issues likely for either.

Last I heard, they hadn't figured out what was causing the problem, so all they can do is tread cautiously with Lewis (and cross their fingers, I'd imagine). Still, its quite common for issues to affect one driver / car and not the other, so I'm not unduly worried about Lewis.


GSC wrote:
Williams disappearance has been a disappointment this year.

Agreed. Last season they looked almost ready to become genuine title contenders. Guess they've just been swamped by the developments made by Ferrari, Lotus and Force India. They still perform well on high-speed / low-downforce tracks, (3rd best behind Ferrari this weekend), but slide further down the grid on slower tracks.
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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 1:05 pm

Kimi picard

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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 1:27 pm

Barring mechanical issues that's race won. Damage control again for Rosberg
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:04 pm

GSC wrote:Barring mechanical issues that's race won. Damage control again for Rosberg

Not so much damage control as the slow, inevitable demise of his title challenge. Sad

Huge gaps between the front 3 and not much in the way of midfield battles either. Total disappointment as a spectacle.

Biggest surprise was seeing George Lucas in the VIP area. Maybe he could show McLaren the ways of The Force...probably the only way they'll make any progress this season.


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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:06 pm

I agree. I still think F1 has a problem, but tyres etc are side issues. We need a two team championship
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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:18 pm

Engine blown for Rosberg

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:20 pm

GSC wrote:I agree. I still think F1 has a problem, but tyres etc are side issues. We need a two team championship

At least. 3 or more would be better.

Poor Nico...engine gives up with 2 laps to go, just as he was catching Vettel.

Wonder what Mercedes were worried about with Lewis' car? Telling him to put in quick laps so they can do a pit stop...
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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:22 pm

If Hamilton makes it to the end, may as well give him the title now
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:28 pm

Toto Wolff not giving anything away in the immediate post-race interview. Lewis wasn't reporting any problems so it could only be something engine / ERS related, hydraulics, or something like that.

Good comeback by Kimi after he fluffed his start. Decent results for Williams and Force India. Good drive by Ricciardo to get into the points as well.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:29 pm

Also, Lewis looks terrible with blonde hair! Laugh Maybe thats why he's been keeping it covered up?


Andrew Benson Tweet:


Hamilton wins in Italy despite late scare - but faces stewards inquiry over low tyre pressure

Explains why Mercedes were pushing him to do hot laps. Worried about getting a time penalty I would imagine.


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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:31 pm

Low tyre pressure and under stewards investigation apparently
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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:31 pm

Would assume hes going to get a time.penalty
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:36 pm

Interesting that the BBC are on the ball with this while Sky are clueless.

George Lucas on the podium! Is he going to make Lewis a Jedi Knight?
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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:37 pm

0.25.042 second lead over Vettel. Not sure what the penalty time will be, usually 20 seconds? Rosberg will be be desperate for a punishment.


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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:38 pm

Low at the start. Could get disqualified I guess.
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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:41 pm

Paddy Lowe stating they set the pressure under the observation of the Pirelli tyre guy pre race & was happy with it.


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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:42 pm

Well if they were low at the start, his car was technically illegal. Championships over either way so w/e.

Rosbergs were low as well but irrelevant for him unless his becomes a grid place penalty
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:48 pm

Seems it wasn't just Mercedes either. Could be one or two other teams in some bother.
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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 3:05 pm

Rosberg was 1.1 below, Hamilton was only 0.3 below the lowest recommended pressure. Can see Lewis being DSQ now.

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Post by GSC on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 3:08 pm

Merc knew they had a problem and tried to hide it.
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Post by Fernando on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 3:30 pm

Mercedes been caught with their hands in the cookie jar then, Mitch Evans if GP2 was excluded for low tyre pressures on Friday.

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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 3:33 pm

Surely the Pirelli employee approved both cars for the race, knowing they had both illegal pressures. Therefore, why allow them to race, knowing they're breaching the safety standards, that you as the manufacturer, have set in place. You're basically allowing them risk their drivers potentially, for absolutely no benefit whatsoever & allowing the race to just end up becoming a farse, in terms of end result. Communication could be improved so much to just stop this from unfolding. Agree, Mercedes are in the wrong, but steps should be taken to avoid this messy outcome.

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Post by Fernando on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 3:55 pm

It's an interesting statement, It sounds like Pirelli checked twice which means im guessing that Pirelli would of warned them once and Mercedes ignored so just signed it off & reported them.

Either way ill be surprised if Mercedes get away with it, I suspect it was a lot lower then 0.3 at some point considering how hard Mercedes told him to push.
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Post by Fernando on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 4:03 pm

It appears was an FIA delegate that caught them under supervision of Pirelli.

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Post by Fernando on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 4:56 pm

Mercedes have been cleared.

Well this is gunna be interesting to read the decision.

This is not going to go down well with other teams considering can now just discard Tyre Pressure rules.

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Post by Fernando on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 5:04 pm

Well this is going to be a fun few days now Laugh
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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 5:13 pm

Basically, Rosberg would of been praying that Mercedes' were punished. Now they've been cleared, I can't see him closing a 50+ point deficit.

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Post by nathan on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 7:37 pm

Fernando wrote:Mercedes have been cleared.

Well this is gunna be interesting to read the decision.

This is not going to go down well with other teams considering can now just discard Tyre Pressure rules.

From the statement that was given lots of teams could have been under 19.5 if the tyre blankets had been removed.  But not all teams are tested, it was just Ferrari and Mercedes. What's the betting that the two ferraris were tested first, then Hamilton and then Rosberg. Obviously the two ferraris were ok, Hamilton slightly under and then Romberg even further under.

If any of the other teams that hadn't been tested, was when the tyre blankets had been off for a little while, I presume the tyre pressure would of gone down too.

Personally i think it's a bit of a farce how the whole procedure for testing tyre pressures has been setup, surely someone guessed that tyres lose pressure as they cool and if there is only one tester the last car he gets to will have the coolest tyres and so likely will have lost the most pressure.

I'm also slightly annoyed that the tyres were reported not safe at the beginning of the race and yet the cars were allowed to continue in a  supposed danger to others

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Post by Guest on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 8:24 pm

Mercedes did not break the technical limits as indicated by the letter Fernando attached.  

They were not -0.3 PSI below the limit for Hamilton.  They were not -1.1 PSI below the limit for Rosberg.  There was no breaking of the safety margin.

The failure was in the on track inspection - they measured the pressure at a temperature below the minimum regulation temperature.  As Guillaume Amontons discovered around 1700: the pressure of air at fixed mass and fixed volume is directly proportional to the air's absolute temperature.  That is pressure is directly proportional to temperature for a fixed mass and volume of air.  The on track inspector should have corrected the pressure to the regulation temperature.  Once the tyres were warmed up to race temperature the pressure would have been within the declared safety margins. This is the reason why they have the warm up lap before the start of the race and why you see the racing drivers moving energetically from side to side during it.

Not taking this into account could lead to overpressure in the tyres at race temperature, meaning less grip, and less safe cars.

Temperature they should have been measured at 110 C (= 383 Kelvin).
Hamilton's tyre measured at 19.2 PSI at a temperature of 101 C.  Temperature corrected (110 C) pressure = 19.66 PSI
Rosberg's tyre measured at 18.4 PSI at a temperature of 84 C.  Temperature corrected (110 C) pressure = 19.74 PSI.
Hence Mercedes were within the prescribed safety margin.

Fun & Games
Tyre pressure of 19.7 PSI at 110 C: measured at 25 C, pressure = 15.3 PSI
Tyre pressure of 19.7 PSI at 25 C: measured at 110 C, pressure = 25.3 PSI

Conclusion
The only people at fault were the FIA for demonstrating a basic lack of understanding of tyre physics.

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Post by dummy_half on Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:12 am

Nore

I suspect it's slightly more complex than you have it there - I assume that the tyre surface temperature is measured either with a surface probe (thermocouple) or by some type of IR thermal imager. The temperature of the gas inside the tyre may be in equilibrium with the tyre surface if left in the blankets for sufficiently long (although I understand that there is a limit to how long the tyres can be warmed for before the compound gets damaged), but will not drop as rapidly as the tyre surface temperature because of the insulating effect of the tyre carcass (noting that the tyre surface will be additionally cooled by any air movement over the surface). Of course it is not practically possible to measure the temperature of the gas within the tyre unless there is a temperature sensor already inside - the temperature of the gas coming from the valve will change simply from the pressure change of letting it through the valve...

I suspect through that your basic premise is correct - Merc inflated the tyres to 19.5PSI at 110 deg and Pirelli verified this in the garage. Subsequent start line test was on tyres of poorly controlled temperature and that had consequently lost a small amount of pressure with the decreasing temperature.

Since Pirelli had signed them off as OK in the pits, the FIA were in no position to impose a penalty because their measurements were less well controlled.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 07 Sep 2015, 1:08 pm

Oy! What a mess-up! picard
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Post by Guest on Mon 07 Sep 2015, 4:41 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:What a mess-up! picard

Plenty of those going on in F1. The sorry state of affairs at McLaren is really unfolding now. Looks like the relationship with Honda is in complete tatters. Alonso has revealed to the media how dog awful the car really is, JB looks like retiring or being forced out, Boullier/Neale's relationship with Honda boss Yasuhisa Arai is over & apparently McLaren now want the Honda boss to resign, over this complete embarrassment of an engine. Also been murmurings of some financial woes at McLaren being possible further down the line & finishing ninth in the constructors this year, with no major sponsor, is going to hurt them sooner, rather than later. I can't see them being back among the front runners for a number of years.

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Post by GSC on Tue 08 Sep 2015, 11:08 am

Sounds like Red Bull and Toro Rosso will go back to Ferrari engines.
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Post by Guest on Tue 08 Sep 2015, 11:22 am

I couldn't never envisage Mercedes' providing Red Bull an engine. Ferrari seem more open & willing to embrace the competition, so fair play. Would mean Ferrari supplying Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Sauber & Haas next season & then Mercedes would supply Manor.

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