Some wise words from the late Tony Benn

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Post by McLaren on Tue 08 Sep 2015, 10:27 am

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Tony Benn wrote:The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it.
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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 2:31 pm

Because Lebanon and Turkey haven't taken in any refugees at all.

Get your nose out of the Daily Mail and into the real world.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:03 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Funny that the countries that these immigrants/refugees (s.t. determination) would much more easily assimilate into (causing less lifestyle upheaval for families in particular), that also happen to be nearer and richer, are not taking a single one.....

At least we can't say we weren't warned, repeatedly.

Now now, TopHat.

I hear Saudi Arabia are offering to build 200 mosques in Germany, what's not to like?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:08 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Because Lebanon and Turkey haven't taken in any refugees at all.

Get your nose out of the Daily Mail and into the real world.

Are they both richer?

No.

Presume you aren't genuinely that thick, just being a pr!ck to avoid acknowledging that wealthy Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have not taken a single refugee in.

To be defined as a refugee you must be fleeing persecution under/for "XYZ". When XYZ is no longer there, you are no longer being persecuted. Plenty of places they could go but apparently only Western Europe will do?

It's BS and it's exactly what ISIS said it would do 6 months ago.

All this because we got over-excited about an 'Arab Spring' and wistful western hopes for democracy in lands it'll never settle in preventing us just supporting the governments that kept sh!t in line.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:17 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Because Lebanon and Turkey haven't taken in any refugees at all.

Get your nose out of the Daily Mail and into the real world.

Are they both richer?

No.

Presume you aren't genuinely that thick, just being a pr!ck to avoid acknowledging that wealthy Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have not taken a single refugee in.

To be defined as a refugee you must be fleeing persecution under/for "XYZ".  When XYZ is no longer there, you are no longer being persecuted. Plenty of places they could go but apparently only Western Europe will do?

It's BS and it's exactly what ISIS said it would do 6 months ago.

All this because we got over-excited about an 'Arab Spring' and wistful western hopes for democracy in lands it'll never settle in preventing us just supporting the governments that kept sh!t in line.

Calm down, boy.

Just because the Arab states aren't taking anybody in, doesn't mean that we should stoop to their level. They're Sh!ts. And so are we for trading with them. Hell, we pump so much money through Saudi with arms and oil and plenty of IS is from there in the first place. It's all really murky and full of awful people and dirty money.

But these people have been persecuted, bombed, tortured, abused, been made homeless and now they need somewhere to live. Lebanon has increased their population by a quarter taking in refugees and I agree that more should be done to help countries like Lebanon out. They really are struggling.

But this Little Englander attitude is pretty awful. Dehumanising these people and acting like they're all coming for Britain (they're really not) is beyond contempt.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:22 pm

Are, the little englander comment, classic. clap Rolling Eyes

I fully agree with aiding Lebanon, significant financial assistance since we're a root cuase of the problem. But no, that does not mean we should blindly accept 100,000 phoney refugees, especially ones from a culture that's already shown to cause significant friction and a refusal to integrate.

Doubly especially when this is exactly what a terrorist army/state said it would do to attack us from the inside.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:31 pm

Take the tin foil top hat off.

You know nothing about these people, absolutely nothing. You have no idea what they've been through. Have you seen the figures of how many homes have been destroyed in Syria? Have you seen how many of these people have travelled from Afghanistan? A country that we as a nation have helped to destroy? To just categorise them has "phoney (sic) refugees" is moronic and it blindly ignores all of the data that is presented to you. It also shows a total lack of empathy.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:36 pm

The standard 'Little Englander' comment the moment somebody doesn't like an alternative view and the moment the number of homeless British serviceman reaches zero we can then start caring for the rest of the world.

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Post by Rowley on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:37 pm

If everyone had been so concerned by the homeless in this country prior to this refugee crisis we would not have any homeless people in this country.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:38 pm

If the Tories had been so concerned about the homeless in this country then they wouldn't have created policies that have made London into a socially-cleansed money laundering machine.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:41 pm

Rowley wrote:If everyone had been so concerned by the homeless in this country prior to this refugee crisis we would not have any homeless people in this country.

No need for yet another generalisation, I myself give a lot of money to charities involved in the welfare of ex serviceman whether it's help for heroes or personally paying for accommodation.

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Post by Rowley on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:45 pm

Wasn't particularly targetted at you, I have no way of knowing what you do or don't do for charity, and care even less. However, you only need to spend a reasonable amount of time on social media to see that there seems to have been a remarkable spike in concern over our homeless or ex servicemen in the last fortnight or so. Seems an unlikely coincidence.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:47 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Take the tin foil top hat off.

You know nothing about these people, absolutely nothing. You have no idea what they've been through. Have you seen the figures of how many homes have been destroyed in Syria? Have you seen how many of these people have travelled from Afghanistan? A country that we as a nation have helped to destroy? To just categorise them has "phoney (sic) refugees" is moronic and it blindly ignores all of the data that is presented to you. It also shows a total lack of empathy.

Ok Ygritte Rolling Eyes

All because your life is sh!t, doesn't mean you're a refugee. That's the whole f*cking reason refugee is a legally defined term, so champagne-socialist hyocrits like you can't force every hard-up story to be foisted on the rest of us.  

I do actually empathise a lot for their situation, which does look truly terrible, but that doesn't mean our doors should be opened and we should ignore all the risks involved in the mass acceptance of hundreds of thousands of un-vetted unknowns.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:47 pm

Pr4wn wrote:If the Tories had been so concerned about the homeless in this country then they wouldn't have created policies that have made London into a socially-cleansed money laundering machine.

He says from that bastion of righteousness, tax haven Jersey..... Rolling Eyes

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 3:53 pm

There has been and it's unfortunate that such faux concern will not result in any of them doing anything about it, very easy to sit behind a computer and say we should do this or that. If you or anyone else wants to help Syrian refugees then that is your want and all power to you but I feel we have an individual right to help who we feel needs help. In an ideal world we would all be equal with no war or famine or pestilence or early death but we don't but we do all have the right to our individual opinions.

I feel as i'm sure Toppy does that any view held on here that doesn't adhere to the middle left is belittled or met with a level of abuse that doesn't further debate.

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Post by coolpixel on Fri 11 Sep 2015, 4:02 pm

imo the western world is strangely reluctant to force a negotiation with the wealthy Arab states and convince them to take on refugees.

for whatever reason Europe is far too ready to take on the burden of guilt and moral activist.

yes the Syrians have a destroyed country and millions of them have undergone unspeakable horrors. yes the western world is responsible in part for this.

but this happens EVERYDAY in whole swathes of Africa. has been going on for decades. I don't see western world rushing to take on refugees from there - not in a converted effort.

so what makes Syrian refugees more important.

the likes of Bob Geldof and several celebrities and thousands of ordinary people have promised to shelter these refugees.

I applaud their generosity but where is it when hundreds of British service personnel are homeless? since when were the needs of the native population secondary to the needs of a foreign?

where is that generosity when Afghan translators will be killed inevitably if they aren't offered refuge by Britain?

it is easy to become emotional about this and accuse those less involved of being cold and heartless but everything in the world comes down to economics.

and the economic fact, however unpalatable, is that we can't take in refugees in hundred thousands. I think the number the government has proposed sounds reasonable though on first hearing it I thought it was too high.


and again how will these thousands of refugees become part of the mainstream?


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Post by Pr4wn on Sat 12 Sep 2015, 11:13 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:If the Tories had been so concerned about the homeless in this country then they wouldn't have created policies that have made London into a socially-cleansed money laundering machine.

He says from that bastion of righteousness, tax haven Jersey..... Rolling Eyes

Ha, this was where I was born, genius. But don't worry, heavily involved in politics here. Appreciate you looking, though.

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Post by Guest on Sun 13 Sep 2015, 7:43 am

I have looked around the comments sections on the BBC and the papers and it is quite clear that Jeremy Corbyn has a very high level of support amongst them.  Even the Daily Mail readership seem to be overwhelmingly in favour of him following his election.  Things may change of course.  Corbyn has thirty years of anti-establishment activism behind him - and he is engaging with a group of people who feel left out by the (global) political system and a world that seems harsh and foreboding.  This is especially the case for young people in which student debt, high rents, unaffordable housing, uncertain job market and media saturation of a nasty world forms their reality.  

Personally I feel we are entering a period of uncertainty similar to that experienced in the interwar years of the 1920s and early 1930s.  History does repeat itself but in different guises.  With Corbyn's labour I am expecting a lot more activism: more demonstrations, more marches, more disruption.  It is what Corbyn knows and has done in the past thirty years.  It will engage people, they will have the sense of being part of something, but it will also further divide people.  To be frank there are tensions that have built up in society and these tensions have to be released one way or another...

Things can change very suddenly in politics and society ... one just needs to look at what happened in the last general election in Scotland.

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