PGA Tour: It'll be Windy in the Windy City: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 5:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).For those who like to play their golf in the wind, the so-called "Windy City" of Chicago will be the place to be this week as the Top 70 in FedEx Points contest the BMW Championship at Conway Farms, Chicago.
A spell of perfect autumn weather will disintegrate tomorrow (Thursday) into a transitional day of hot air and high wind (no, Trump's not scheduled); thunderstorms forecast for Friday, cool and windy for Saturday. Could be nice by Sunday!

2).All the Top 70 are expected to come under starters orders for Round 1, points for everyone and a minimum of $15K for all who complete four rounds, not to mention at least $110K from the FedEx bouns pool, whether you play or not. Is it time for Louis Oosthuizen to finally win in the US?

3).Before looking ahead to the "Beemer", let's glance back at an entertaining first tournament of the web.com Tour Finals, WTF's for the uninitiated.
Sweden's Henrik Norlander won with a terrific final flourish of 62, flushing his irons in a way reminiscent of his namesake Stenson. Henrik played his College Golf in Augusta, with Patrick Reed a sometime teammate. He took home $180K and assured himself of a return to the PGA Tour where he was a fixture in 2013. Definitely one to watch for next year.

4).Others to earn enough (I'm guessing $36K across the 4 x WTF events will do it) to guarantee a PGA Tour card for '15/'16 were Michael Thompson, Japan's Iwata and born-with-a-silver-spoon-(or niblick)-in-his-mouth Sam Saunders.
Lahiri contended thru'out, but will have to go again this week while his Presidents Cup opponents play the BMW. Lahiri probably just needs to make the cut to earn his card.

5).Other international golfers who got off to a good start included Grillo, Fritsch and Brian Davis. Europeans, Gonzo and Siem, plus Greg Eason & Seamus Power, still have it all to do, as the second event gets underway Thursday in North Carolina.

6).And so to Conway Farms, a bitter sweet visit for Luke Donald who was instrumental in bringing the Beemer to his home course in 2013.  Luke is heavily involved in clinics etc during the pre-tournament festivities, but failed to qualify to play. He finished strong with a fine weekend and T4 two years ago; others in this week's field who finished well included:
1st: Zach Johnson
2nd: Watney
3rd: Furyk after shooting 59 in Round 2.
T4: Day, Mahan
T8: Matt Jones, Snedeker
T11: Moore, Sabbatini, Walker
T16: Spieth, Bradley.

7).There's sure to be a Hunter Mahan watch as he strives to finish high enough to qualify for next week's Tour Championship, so extending his run of 35 consecutive Play-Off events. This is pgatour.com's arithmetic calculation of what position players need to finish to assure qualification for next week:

http://www.pgatour.com/fedexcup/2015/09/08/bmw-championship-scenarios.html

8).The Ulsterman getting most press this week is not Rory McIlroy but David Feherty as his departure from CBS TV and recruitment by NBC TV is confirmed. NBC doesn't seem to much care for non-American commentators so Feherty looks to have become an American citizen in the nick of time. All US TV Golf commentary teams are ageing and 57-y-o Feherty is no spring chicken. Does he see himself as taking Johnny Miller's seat as "lead analyst"; can't see Miller continuing after his ceremonial return to Birkdale in 2017?

9).The 2013 Solheim Cup was one of the highlights of that golfing year, so hopefully this week's edition will live up to that example.

10).Congrats to the GB&I Walker Cup Team and their record-breaking win at Lytham last weekend.
Some team members are already signed up with agents and will be taking sponsor exemptions into upcoming tournaments before they, presumably, shift their act to Q-School.
And there they might well meet some veterans of past Walker Cup Teams whose game fell upon hard times - I see a couple of those vets are playing Round 1 of European Tour Q-School in Kelso this week.
Their American counterparts will be teeing it up at web.com Q-School early next month after preliminary contests in early September.
Good luck to all in their transition to the Pro game.


Last edited by kwinigolfer on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by pedro on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:54 am

Apparently Woods' surgery went well. He expects full recovery. In a statement he said: "I just need a few more ribs."

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 12:33 pm

py,
Ben Curtis failed to qualify for the web.com Tour Finals, not having finished in the Top 200 on the season's FedEx points list.

Seems a little silliness going on at the Solheim Cup, did she say that's good or didn't she? Too close for comfort as the Singles are being played . . . . . .

EDIT: There have been similar disputes in the past, but strange that the Match Official had to overturn the way he called the hole. Bizarre.

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Post by pyormin on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 2:10 pm

I did mean at the end of 2014 season. He was somewhere around 130x-140x on The Fraudex point.

Scenes if Suzanne's stupidity fires up US team and Euro lose the cup because of that.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:09 pm

Looks like the USA won by playing fantastic golf. Well done to them.

Suzann Pettersen cast as the villain but seems unfair and undeserved.

Still trying to remember precedents, there certainly have been some without today's faux acrimony.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:24 pm

Looking forward to the final round of the WTF series today, but probably won't see much of Irelend's Seamus Power on the leaderboard - ruined a decent tournament by starting out Round 4 with a TEN.

Big day for Brian Davis and he's off to a strong start - -3 in his first four holes; got to keep his foot down now.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 6:56 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Looking forward to the final round of the WTF series today, but probably won't see much of Irelend's Seamus Power on the leaderboard - ruined a decent tournament by starting out Round 4 with a TEN.

Big day for Brian Davis and he's off to a strong start - -3 in his first four holes; got to keep his foot down now.

Never good to put a 10 on your scorecard picard I'm not up to speed on requirements for progression from the web.com to Pgatour, is he goosed or still have a chance?
I did look him up however, mainly out of embarrassment of not knowing anything about him. Another accountant, from Waterford this time, looks to be a quality player too.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 7:24 pm

!!!! Apparently they adjusted Power's TEN to a NINE following intervention from Julie Inkster.
He still gets two more cracks at a sufficiently good result to progress to the PGA Tour. Needs to keep those nines off his card however.

Bad, double bogey, finish from Russell Knox just when he needed a birdie to give him a shot at East Lake and all the collateral bennies. A good season for him, making steady progress every year.

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Post by Shotrock on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 7:46 pm

Day on one impressive run.

Pettersen incident comical ... a pompous, stupid move that backfired and helped the better team win. So fun to watch.

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 7:51 pm

Why was it pompous? Yes it backfired but I think the media and the US team are to blame for that. Making a huge fuss over a schoolgirl error.

Perhaps next time they shouldn't actually play golf at all - just decide it over 3 days of magnanimous gestures

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 7:52 pm

What was comical, pompous or stupid? By Pettersen at least??

I would have thought the gripe should be with the Match Official, not the Europeans. Only fitting that Hull & Pettersen won the 18th making the brouhaha irrelevant.

Superb play by US in the singles, good for them. And good for Stanford, some redemption at last for her.


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Post by Shotrock on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 8:08 pm

18 inches? Doesn't call it good and doesn't have the decency to stay in position if she is going to make the opponent putt out what has been clearly inside the "circle of sportsmanship" all week. Pompous. But, hey the hole ends when the ball is in the cup. I am now surprised she gave ANY putt in her singles matches.

Good for her that she won that battle ... only fitting that she helped lose the event in her singles match.



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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 8:19 pm

Lee said it was "two feet" in the interview I saw. Not surprising "Deflategate" became a national issue . . . . .

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 8:29 pm

The match referee said it was 2 feet. He also asked all four players and caddies if a concession had been given. No one claimed to have heard it.

If she had been taking liberties with gimmes before that already, as previously claimed I wouldn't give her a damn thing either.

The match referee also said he could have considered it a concession if he's seen players walking off. He didn't. TV angles may have made it look this way but I'd take the work of the match official on the spot (and an American at that)

Anyway what does it matter if it was 18 inches or 2 feet or whatever? There is nothing in the rules that says a putt should be conceded. Even pantomime dame laura said she'd made opponents putt out in later stages of a match, just to get under the skin of the opponent.

Give concessions early, make them putt out late .. surely a mantra for any savvy matchplayer

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 9:30 pm

We can add a few more certainties to retrieve, or earn for the first time, their 2015/16 Tour Card:
Notables (sort of) only: Chez Reavie, Grillo, Ricky Barnes, Lahiri, Kyle Stanley.

Jason Day not playing his best; will that carry forward to next week? Shame Rory is still not firing on all cylinders . . . . no electricity to the afternoon's golf, none at all.

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Post by McLaren on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 9:45 pm

I am pretty sure Hull thought the Putt was conceded given the way she turned and walked to the next tee. But really, why is golf so obsessed with the whole etiquette thing?
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Post by SmithersJones on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 9:57 pm

Hull and Petterson both moved off, there's no way they expected her to hole out. If you aren't happy that it's a gimme you stay put. Poopie retrospective call from Petterson prompted it seems by her caddie. The gesture got what it deserved.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:07 pm

Its not even a controversy

Are you obliged to give your opponent everything within 2 feet? No!
Is it some kind of bad sportsmanship to make someone hole one that might look tricky? Of course not!
Should you pick up your ball without being sure it's given? Of course not!

Lee even said someone in the crowd may have said it. If you know you're in a situation where the crowd is vocal why would you pick up a putt without making sure?!

On top of that if it is true that Lee had picked up a few and had been warned then the whole 'she could have given her a chance and walked on' sportsmanship argument goes out the window as she already done that.

Next match I play I'll just take someone round with me who can yell 'that's good' on every putt and I'll pick them all up. I might even break the course record. If my opponent gets fed up with it I'll just have a whinge about how unsportsmanlike he's being. Ha
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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:23 pm

News flash:
In an extraordinary turn of events Jordan Spieth has retrospectively given Dustin Johnson his tiddler at Chambers Bay and there'll be an 18-hole play-off on Monday to determine the US Open winner.

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Post by GPB on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:26 am

Haven't seen verification of Pettersen warning Alison Lee about picking up putts.

"Secret Tour Pro" can't have much credibility if he can't even reveal his identity.

As I said in the LOCKED thread, IMO, Pettersen was angle shooting the young rookie.  Just waiting to ambush her if she made a mistake.  Again IMO, if Lee had marked the ball, Pettersen would have given the putt.

and if the putt was not conceded, a honorable player would have spoken up that the putt was "Not Good" and warned her to not pick it up.

Again IMO, Pettersen is no better than a golf hustler taking advantage of an inexperienced opponent.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:37 am

Sorry GPB but that's just rubbish.
I watched a lot of the Solheim and there are no other examples of Petterson waiting for anyone to mark their ball before giving a putt, in that match or any other.

In your matches, if you're not going to give a putt, you make a point of saying 'oh that's not given' do you? Or if not you ensure you're eagle eyed to help out your opponent if it looks like they're making a mistake right? Yeah sure
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Post by GPB on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:58 am

Its my opinion.

Hull walking off the green after Lee's 1st putt missed is body language of a conceded putt.  Her claim, 7 hours later, that she was walking towards Pettersen does not hold weight with me.  IMO, It was SPIN. Hull was balling her eyes out right after the controversy.  Pettersen was the alpha player (and I wouldn't be surprised she was being coached by Sorenstam_

When I played with my buddies, heckling was expected when a putt was not conceded

"There's some chicken left on that bone"
"That's in the vomit zone"

That's the way I see it.  Yes I am partial towards the USA and I suspect that if Michelle Wie had done something similarly she would be flamed on this board.  In fact she did something similar two years ago in Colorado.  My search skills on this board is about a 36 handicap level so I can't find evidence.  But I would not be surprised if it is there.

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Post by Shotrock on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:05 am

I get my news flashes from the BBC (ok, sometimes the Onion), and if Ian Carter claims 18", well there you have it ...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/golf/34308640

Smither - Glad to see the "fog" lifted for more than a few.

Her hustle backfired. Probably cost the Euros the cup. She'll get 'em in Iowa I'm sure.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:56 am

There is no such thing as the body language of a conceded putt. It's verbal or it doesn't exist.

As to whether Lee had been previously warned is central to this for me, we'll probably never find out.

The shame of this is its overshadowing the credit that the US team should be getting for their performance in the singles, which was incredible
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Post by GPB on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:14 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:

As to whether Lee had been previously warned is central to this for me, we'll probably never find out.


And what other source, besides a tweet from Secret Tour Pro, says that Lee had been warned?

Source other than someone quoting Secret Tour Pro's tweet, because I have seen the tweet referenced in other blogs.  

If it is true, then I think some reputable media reporter would have reported it.

Its incredible to me that anyone would think the tweet is credible, without some sort of corroboration.  

Brittany Lincicome tweeted to Secret Tour Pro:  


Brittany Lincicome in a tweet wrote:that's a big fat lie!  Where do you come up with this???


https://twitter.com/secrettourpro/status/645511704529477632

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:17 am

I don't have any other sources GPB. I was just commenting on that from someone else who brought it up, it's not my allegation. It could be as baseless as the allegation Petterson was hussling Lee for all I know.

The point I was trying to make is I don't see what Petterson did wrong. All this is a fuss because she chose not to give a putt and the opponent had a tantrum, which actually would be considered terrible etiquette in itself by any golfer I've ever played with. You try it next time you play a match (not with your mates) and see what the reaction is.

In addition, IF the comment re her having been warned is true then what she did is actually commendable. No one respects that person who won't pull someone up for cheating just because they don't want to speak up. I reiterate that's an IF
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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:22 am

There is an interesting video here - http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/20/solheim-cup-2015-players-tears-row - which shows a camera angle I hadn't previously seen.

From this is DOES look at first sight as if Charley Hull was walking away - but what I can't tell from the video is where Petterson was standing.

Charley Hull has claimed she was walking towards Petterson to discuss the situation and not walking off the green as claimed.

I don't know the answer but it does illustrate that what some people are claiming as fact could just be an impression from the original camera shot. The caddies don't seem to be moving

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Post by beninho on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:51 am

I still think the way Hull and her caddie walk off seems to imply a concession. As mentioned somewhere you can give it by walking away. Personally I don't like giving the concession then not giving it. Play one or the other rule. But we'll done to the usa team great fightback though easily the better team.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 8:13 am

You cannot give a concession by walking away
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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:23 am

If she wanted to ask Petterson she didn't need to march off like that, and her caddie certainly didn't need to follow her. Petterson's caddie does hang back, but it's really got fa to do with him. The fact that Hull was in tears too suggests to me that she was upset with what went on, and as has been suggested she's telling people what she's been told to tell them about going over to Petterson. She may be only 19 or whatever it is but she's played enough golf to know that you either stay put and watch them hole out or you move on to the next hole.
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Post by McLaren on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:29 am

"Hull walking off the green after Lee's 1st putt missed is body language of a conceded putt"

I agree, Hull was subservient to Pettersen when it come to handing out the concessions and that putt was such an obvious gimmie that Hull assumed her master (Pettersen) would give the putt. Hence why she turned and walked away like ever other partner in the history of golf after their partner had ok'ed a concession.

Hull was in tears because she knows that she, like everyone other than Pettersen, around that green assumed the putt was given.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:40 am

There are a lot of excuses being thrown about to justify the poor reaction of the US side here.

What the caddies did is irrelevant and a red herring.
What the 'body language' was is a red herring.
Yes it would be nice to watch all your opponents putts but match play is full of gamesmanship and whether anyone walks away or not is a red herring.

Q. Was the putt given?
A. No. Consensus view. No one disputes this. The referee agrees it wasn't given. Even Lee said she heard something but isn't certain it was Hull or Petterson.

Q. You have a putt that hasn't been given, can you just give it to yourself and scoop it up?
A. No.

Lee was crying because she made a mistake. Hull was crying because she was caught up in something she didn't want to be and, as she said, she felt bad for Lee. They're both young. Surely that's not hard to believe.  

Still no one can actually tell me what Petterson did wrong? Apart from 'she could have let her off'.....

If I did the same as Lee and got pulled up on it in a match at my club, and then if I went into the bar after having a tantrum about it, telling everyone it was 'BS', I would be a laughing stock
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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:46 am

What Petterson should have done is shrug it off and give her the warning @selfimportanttourpro claimed she had already given.
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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:47 am

It needs another camera angle showing exactly what Petterson was doing. Hull walked off towards where Petterson was (presumably) standing. Purposefully or not, that is inconclusive. You can see Petterson's caddy gesture to where Petterson is presumably standing, looking like he is asking if the putt was given. The camera angles I've seen don't show Petterson at the crucial moment.

I'd also assume Lee has played enough golf to know you don't just assume a gimme

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 9:50 am

SJ why should she? it was the 17th hole... I'll remember this when I'm on the 18th next with a tricky one to half the match. Just pick it up. I'll just get a freebie warning. Handy

If you're being generous what she could have done is said 'put it back down and putt it' but I don't think not doing so is 'wrong'
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Post by beninho on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:14 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:You cannot give a concession by walking away

In Davies post on the closed thread, the Match referee said that you can concede the putt non verbally, by walking away.

What we need to know, is what was different to any other conceded putt given by the Euros. Did they walk away from the green in a similar manner. If so, then you can see why the Americans would have thought it was conceded.


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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:17 am

If your opponent has wandered off towards the first tee, suggesting he thinks the match has gone to extra holes then yes, you can. If he turns round and says he didn't give it, tell him you holed it when he wasn't looking.
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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:19 am

beninho wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:You cannot give a concession by walking away

In Davies post on the closed thread, the Match referee said that you can concede the putt non verbally, by walking away.

What we need to know, is what was different to any other conceded putt given by the Euros. Did they walk away from the green in a similar manner. If so, then you can see why the Americans would have thought it was conceded.


I did make a mention of that, after I saw the match referee interviewed. I can't remember word for word what he said but he did imply that to be the case. HOWEVER, he went on to say that the walking off on Sunday wsn't enough, or in a manner, to suggest to him the concession was made. Goes back again to camera angles and not knowing if Hull really walked off or walked over to Petterson

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:24 am

beninho wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:You cannot give a concession by walking away

In Davies post on the closed thread, the Match referee said that you can concede the putt non verbally, by walking away

Yet the rules of golf say you can't
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:43 am

Pettersen obviously feels bad about it now -

http://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/suzann-pettersen-issues-apology
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Post by Nay on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:07 am

I am assuming there will be a similar statement from Lee for cheating and starting this whole issue.

Because lets be honest here, just picking up a putt because you do want to hole it is basically cheating.

But it seems if you have had a tough week then you don't have to follow the same rules as everyobe else.

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:21 am

Where do we get the idea that she didn't want to hole it? She assumed it had been given because her opponent walked away, having been watching intently while she made her attempt at winning the hole. The spirit in which these types of matches are usually played would suggest that the putt was conceded, and Petterson's apology recognises that.
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Post by Nay on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:35 am

Firstly This spirit of the game is quite frankly BS. The spirit of the game should be to everything within your power to win, within the rules. Pettersson did this.

Thats the key she just assumed, regardless of the circumstances its cheating. Or are you saying if its an assumption its acceptable.

Because by that logic i could be a mutch better golfer.

The simple matter of fact is Pettersson used an age old match play tactic, Lee thought she was above putting from that distance and picked up without a concession. She should have made sure of the concession but didnt.




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Post by beninho on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:16 pm

"Lee thought she was above putting from that distance" - and you are having a go at someone else for making an assumption. At least her assumption was based on the fact that her team had been given similar length putts during the round. You, unfortunately are just making things up, with no basis on anything. Which you can do, but it does not help your argument.

It seems that this was an unfortunate occurrence, someone made a mistake and it was picked up and probably taken to far.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:29 pm

Pettersen has rejected the idea that Lee had had prior warnings so the incident on the 17th was a one off. That being the case I don't think it was a deliberate attempt at cheating. Lee made a mistake though, no doubt about that.
I am surprised that Pettersen has issued an apology in truth but if she feels she should have acted differently and hopes this will help then good for her. I'm still not sure she did anything wrong but she clearly wishes she'd done it differently.
Hopefully the Americans will get some credit now for their singles performance
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Post by Nay on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:39 pm

As everyone is assuming that Hull had decided it was to he conceded and she was not walking to speak with Pettersson.

I also think its an unfortunate incident, im merely trying to point out that at best (for Lee) she is 50% responsible for this.

Yet no one blames her for what is, regardless of circumstances and whether she meant it, an act of cheating.

Dustin Johnson was vilified for assuming and not checking whether he was in a bunker on 18th at whistling straights (i think). Yet Pettersson is to take full blame because Lee assumes with the general consensus she shoukd be let off with it.

So why not the same treatment of Dustin as he assumed and made a genuine error.

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:14 pm

Matchplay vs strokeplay, very different rules. In strokeplay if you allow a fellow competitor to break the rules you are both disqualified. In matchplay if you let your opponent break the rules that's up to you.
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Post by Shotrock on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:51 pm

I am surprised she issued an apology, too. She did not cheat. She had no trouble using the "strict rules of the game" on Sunday morning, so why backpeddle?

It was a calculated, cagey move. The US team were hustled. Good for Europe.

Unfortunately for her, it backfired (IMO and plenty of others, of course). It added significant motivation for the Yanks the rest of that day and now has obviously left poor Pettersen begging for forgiveness. (Methinks, however, an agent had something to do with her change of heart.)

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:01 pm

The whole thing definitely backfired, that is for certain!
And good for the Americans. As mentioned earlier, it's a shame the turnover is being overshadowed
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Post by GPB on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:20 pm

SmithersJones wrote:Matchplay vs strokeplay, very different rules. In strokeplay if you allow a fellow competitor to break the rules you are both disqualified. In matchplay if you let your opponent break the rules that's up to you.

{emphasis mine}

Huh?

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:39 pm

GPB wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:Matchplay vs strokeplay, very different rules. In strokeplay if you allow a fellow competitor to break the rules you are both disqualified. In matchplay if you let your opponent break the rules that's up to you.

{emphasis mine}

Huh?

If you see someone cheat and don't pull them up on it, you are both liable to disqualification. Did you not know that?
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