Let's give Europe the Solheim cup !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 9:39 am

Doesn't mean that much to us that we need to stoop so low...

Shameful...

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:05 am

I expected some comments about it. Should have known it would be you.

Sad scenes, yes, but the fact remains the putt was NOT conceded. Maybe it should have been, maybe not. The American commentators insist it was about 18" .. watching it a few times I still think it was maybe 2.5'

The American girl made a basic error and Europe are being blamed for it. As I'm typing this the US captain is being interviewed and she claims it is disrespectful. Disrespectful for not giving a two and half footer to a rookie, who was looking shaky anyway, at a critical point in the match?

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Post by GPB on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:19 am

Dame Laura Davies on Pettersen: "She's let herself down and she has certainly let her team down. I am so glad I am not on that team this time"

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:25 am

Match official who also happened to be American - "After interviewing all 4 players and caddies, no one heard a concession. While it is true that a putt can be conceded, non-verbally - for example just by walking away, I was happy that no concession had been given so the hole was won by Europe"

Incidentally, the referee estimated it was maybe 2 feet.

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Post by Nay on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:29 am

Lee was supposedly warned twice by Pettersson about picking her ball up to early yesterday.

If that is the case as what point does continually breaking the rules constitute not in the spirit of the game.

Her playing partner told her not to pick it up on this occasion. It is the simplest of rules to follow

Not saying i agree, but also not saying i disagree. Im somewhat undecided

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:38 am

Nay Bother wrote:Lee was supposedly warned twice by Pettersson about picking her ball up to early yesterday.



If that is true then the vilification of Petterson is looking more and more unfair. Do you have any references to back that up?

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Post by Nay on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 10:45 am

Other than the secret tour pro on twitter, no links at the moment

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Post by Nay on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:14 am

And in the interest of fairness lincicombe denies this

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:31 am

Hmm, must have a short memory Truss if you're worried about bad sportsmanship. I seem to recall the Americans watching a shot which they didn't seem to care about it until after it was holed. Said the Europeans had played out of turn. Was within the rules but not very sporting at the time.

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Post by beninho on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:32 am

Just seen a replay, the way Hull walks away and the caddies clearly imply a concession. I think it's bad from the euros. These group matches with concessions should be more sporting, if you concede then you should follow that rule to the end of the match.

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:36 am

For clarity, I've not seen what happened but only read about it here and what little was reported by the BBC

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Post by beninho on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:38 am

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/controversy-17-solheim-cup/?cid=twitter-gc-v-controversy-17-solheim-cup-092015

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:43 am

The match referee stated he saw no implied concession. A simple "is that good" would have avoided all that

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Post by GPB on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:49 am

More from Dame Laura Davies

English legend Laura Davies to Sky Sports on concession debacle: "I am disgusted. Suzann has let herself and her team down."

https://twitter.com/EllingYelling/status/645548734051393536

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 11:54 am

Thanks Ben.

From the video it looked like one of the European caddies raised his hand as if to say "why'd she do that?" when Lee picked up the ball

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 12:12 pm

Pantomime Dame Laura also in the same interview said she herself had in the past made an opponent putt out from short distance just to get under their skin. Not sure why she's so disgusted

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Post by Davie on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 12:13 pm

Apparently Lincicombe was also heard telling Lee not to pick the ball up. Now the wagons are being circled and she is denying ever saying it

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Post by Plunky on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 12:28 pm

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Thanks Ben.

From the video it looked like one of the European caddies raised his hand as if to say "why'd she do that?" when Lee picked up the ball

I saw that too when I reran the video. He clearly was expecting Lee to putt. my understanding is that walking off because you expect a putt to be made is not the same as giving a putt. The old solheim US team of Wie and Korda in particular would often bound off giggling to the next tee box leaving the Europeans on the green to finish up. I'm guessing too that once it was established that no concession has been made, that was it. Rules are rules and i don't think at that point Suzanne could have changed her mind. I haven't read anywhere other than here about lee having been warned about picking up the ball too early. Unfortunate incident, but I still remember Annika in tears when she had to replay her shot back in 2000 because the U.S. team suddenly realized she had played out of turn (after she had chipped in). Just hope it doesn't fire up the U.S. team for the singles !

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Post by Shotrock on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 1:16 pm

Laura Davies is right.

I hope Petterson has a 20 footer to win the cup and I hope the US concede it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 2:02 pm

Looking like that point could be crucial...

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 2:31 pm

What a load of sour grapes!

It seems fairly certain that in no way was a concession definitely given, just assumed.
Should you pick up your ball without checking if a concession has been given? Err, no.

The argument seems to be about whether was right to not concede. Of course she was! I've seen shorter not conceded and have had to putt shorter myself.

What exactly is Petterson meant to have done wrong here??
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Post by Shotrock on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:05 pm

Well done USA!


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:05 pm

Did someone say sour grapes..??

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Post by GPB on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:11 pm

IMO:

If Alison Lee had put a coin down, Suzann would have given her the putt.  No doubt about it.

But since Alison was inexperienced, Suzann gave her an opportunity to make an error.  And Alison did.

I don't think that is honorable.  Its something I would expect a hustler to do.  Its not something I would expect a golf professional to do.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:12 pm

Seem to invigorate a bunch of sleepwalkers...

Wasn't worth it....

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:19 pm

What nonsense GPB.
Would have given her the putt no doubt about it. On what evidence?! None?

If it is true that she had been 'taking' putts that weren't given and had been warned then I'm afraid a piece of US cheating has cost Europe the cup. The change in mentality obviously having affected the players
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:24 pm

You wrote that with a straight face ??

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:25 pm

Coming from a clown?
Forgive me if I ignore that question
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:27 pm

I forgive you..

I'm having too good a time !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:36 pm

Michelle Wie what a legend....Gave the European hard-wall the stuffing of her life....Take a bow...

What a performance.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:37 pm

All your Christmas's at once I'm sure
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 3:39 pm

Coming from a clown...

You won't mind If I ignore you...

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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:05 pm

I'm glad USA won, after that incident. Okay Lee made a mistake, but Pettersson should have left it. What happened to that spirit that Jack Nicklaus displayed when he conceded Jacklin's putt??

Well done USA.


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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:25 pm

gw wrote:I'm glad USA won, after that incident. Okay Lee made a mistake, but Pettersson should have left it. What happened to that spirit that Jack Nicklaus displayed when he conceded Jacklin's putt??

Well done USA.


here, here
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:35 pm

Let's bear in mind that Nicklaus's gesture was at a point where it was certain the US were taking the cup home. He definitely would not have conceded the putt if it had meant Europe would win the competition. Make no mistake there.

The incident this week happened on the 17th hole in a match where everything was still up for grabs.

To say Pettersen should have acted like Nicklaus is comparing apples and orange in my view
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Post by hend085 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:45 pm

i vaguely recall paul mcginley giving a generous gimme on 18th for a half at some point?
was there a streaker involved?
... i hope that wasnt a dream actually now that i think about it.

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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:46 pm

Fair point mustputt.

From the video it's obvious to everyone the putt has been given, everyone walks off, if you intend for opponent to hole the putt you stay where you are.....if that had happened then Europe would have had a case.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:50 pm

As I said on Kwini's thread, yes it would be nice if they'd all stand still and watch everyone's putt. But match play is full of gamesmanship. Walking off doesn't equal conceded putt. Lee made a mistake. An innocent one but still a mistake. And then everyone on the US side had a tantrum and Pettersen has been vilified. Yes she could have been 'nicer' but I don't think she did anything wrong
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Post by McLaren on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:01 pm

gw wrote:Fair point mustputt.

From the video it's obvious to everyone the putt has been given, everyone walks off, if you intend for opponent to hole the putt you stay where you are.....if that had happened then Europe would have had a case.

Exactly.
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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:07 pm

McLaren wrote:
gw wrote:Fair point mustputt.

From the video it's obvious to everyone the putt has been given, everyone walks off, if you intend for opponent to hole the putt you stay where you are.....if that had happened then Europe would have had a case.

Exactly.

Exactly how?

Just because gw puts "obviously" in his post it would seem that makes it a fact and not speculation.

I've mentioned more than once now about different camera angles. One "appears" to show CH marching off to what looks like the next tee, with caddy following. Another "appears" to show CH walking to where Petterson is (presumably) standing. I've yet to see a camera angle that shows what Petterson was doing at the crucial moment.

To say *everyone* walks off just isn't true. One of the caddies remains and seems to call to someone off camera "was that given". If Petterson really was marching to the next tee, who was he talking to? I know it's not up to the caddies to "give" putts but he was clearly questioning something - to someone.

So it's really NOT "obvious" to everyone

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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:17 pm

Well it looks pretty obvious to me then, Davie. Just ask yourself, if you were in Lee's shoes, and everyone takes off to the next tee, except 2 people ( which I don't know if she can see, and even the the caddie motions to walk away) would you think you're required to hole the putt?

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:21 pm

And you've been given putts of that length all day, and it's up to that point not been the sort of game or tournament where you're expected to hole everything, and you're 20 years old and a rookie and a professional who doesn't expect to have fellow professionals play snide hustler tricks on her on a world stage?
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:22 pm

Honestly, being 100% genuine, if I was playing something important, singles final say, and that happened to me I would 100% be saying 'is that ok?' before picking it up. Without any doubt
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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:23 pm

You are still saying they are taking off to the next tee. I repeat (again) - camera angles are inconclusive. Unless you've seen a camera shot that shows Petterson at the crucial moment?

But even in the scenario as you describe it, I would still ask "is that good".

And what does it matter if they'd been given all day to that point? Surely you're not so naive to know that it is fairly standard matchplay tactic (not "hustling") to give putts early then ask to see them when the pressure is on

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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:28 pm

No I said all but 2 people, where were they going then? To get a bwtter angle for the next putt? I don't think so.

No I'm not naive as far as matchplay tactics are concerned, if seen them all. But if you want your opponent to hole you , your partner and caddies stay where you are standing to see out the putt.

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Post by hogie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:29 pm

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Hmm, must have a short memory Truss if you're worried about bad sportsmanship. I seem to recall the Americans watching a shot which they didn't seem to care about it until after it was holed.  Said the Europeans had played out of turn. Was within the rules but not very sporting at the time.

Yep, that was Sorenstam chipping in and the Americans made her replay the shot.

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:36 pm

It's easy to understand why Lee thought they'd given her the putt, as gw says, if you want to see it in you stay exactly where you are. Nonetheless, what we're criticising Petterson for is not letting it slide. Was Lee wrong to pick it up? Yes, but Petterson was totally out of order for claiming it. In matchplay you can let rule breaches slide, and to do so would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the tournament was played. That's why she's apologised.
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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:40 pm

To be honest if it had happened to me, I'd have loved it, that would be all the motivation I needed....just as the Americans did. I like nothing better than a bit of needle in matchplay.

I bet Inkster couldn't believe her luck, that's her motivational speach done for her right there......her team neededicated firing up!

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:41 pm

She's apologised because she now feels like she's the sort of person who would have acted more charitably.

That's not the same as it being wrong not to let it slide. It was the 17th hole. She has a responsibility to her team. In the heat of the moment it is completely justifiable to not let it slide.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:47 pm

Still don't understand why Pettersen is getting castigated and Lee is getting any sympathy.

But then I don't understand why Dustin Johnson was portrayed as a dufus at Whistling Straits either.

Where are the officials in all this? Motivational or not, the Americans outplayed Europe in the singles but who cares about that (he said rhetorically), much prefer to concentrate on misguided allegations of bad sportsmanship?

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