Let's give Europe the Solheim cup !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Sep 2015, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Doesn't mean that much to us that we need to stoop so low...

Shameful...

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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 1:48 pm

SmithersJones wrote:In matchplay you can let rule breaches slide, and to do so would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the tournament was played. That's why she's apologised.

Are you sure about that? Seemed to be a consensus that the match referee was left with no option when Lee picked up. The match referee said so himself. EU captain asked the match referee if anything could be done retrospectively and his reply was that all they could do was conceded the 18th. The 17th hole was over when Lee picked up the ball.

Are you suggesting the match referee was wrong?

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:01 pm

Davie wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:In matchplay you can let rule breaches slide, and to do so would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the tournament was played. That's why she's apologised.

Are you sure about that? Seemed to be a consensus that the match referee was left with no option when Lee picked up. The match referee said so himself. EU captain asked the match referee if anything could be done retrospectively and his reply was that all they could do was conceded the 18th. The 17th hole was over when Lee picked up the ball.

Are you suggesting the match referee was wrong?

No, I'm suggesting that if they hadn't referred it to him, pointing out the lack of a concession, he wouldn't have given the hole to the Europeans.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:04 pm

Davie, it's a bit like if Materazzi hadn't fallen over when Zidane head butted him, no one would have noticed and they all could have just carried on regardless. I think that's what is being suggested should have happened....
Ergo Materazzi completely in the wrong
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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:07 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:Davie, it's a bit like if Materazzi hadn't fallen over when Zidane head butted him, no one would have noticed and they all could have just carried on regardless. I think that's what is being suggested should have happened....

Not quite. If the ref saw the headbutt it would have been his job to react to it and send Zidane off. If this had been strokeplay and a referee say a player pick her ball up, he would have penalised her. In matchplay the referee is there as an arbiter only, so he'd have assumed the concession in exactly the way Lee did. Only when the Europeans decided to make an issue of it could he rule that the hole was Europe's.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:09 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:Davie, it's a bit like if Materazzi hadn't fallen over when Zidane head butted him, no one would have noticed and they all could have just carried on regardless. I think that's what is being suggested should have happened....
Ergo Materazzi completely in the wrong

you do know Materazzi got banned after that incident for his "provocative" comments Wink I get the point you're making, but probably not the best example.

I personally felt the American was, at best, naive to pick up the ball without checking first. In the heat of the moment, you understand why Pettersen reacted the way she did. Having said that, clearly the Americans used it as great motivation, while it somewhat affected the Europeans too. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that...

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:13 pm

You mean Materazzi made a mistake / did something wrong and then Zidane reacted in a way he would not have ordinarily liked? Yes very dissimilar Wink
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:14 pm

SmithersJones wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:Davie, it's a bit like if Materazzi hadn't fallen over when Zidane head butted him, no one would have noticed and they all could have just carried on regardless. I think that's what is being suggested should have happened....

Not quite. If the ref saw the headbutt it would have been his job to react to it and send Zidane off. If this had been strokeplay and a referee say a player pick her ball up, he would have penalised her. In matchplay the referee is there as an arbiter only, so he'd have assumed the concession in exactly the way Lee did. Only when the Europeans decided to make an issue of it could he rule that the hole was Europe's.

The ref didn't see the headbutt, this has been well documented
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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:18 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:You mean Materazzi made a mistake / did something wrong and then Zidane reacted in a way he would not have ordinarily liked? Yes very dissimilar Wink

Hmm but in this case surely everyone agrees the first fault lies with the Americans, who shouldn't have picked the ball up without checking first? The question then becomes whether the Europeans should have let it go or made something of it (as they did). Whereas in the Zidane incident the question is whether Materazzi did anything wrong in the first place (winding up is allowed on a football pitch I think), no one debates that the second person's actions (Zidane's) were wrong (he got a ban too, irrelevant since he retired afterwards, and sent off of course, which was much more relevant) Wink

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:19 pm

Ok ok forget the Materazzi thing

Ps no everyone doesn't agree by the way that Lee did anything wrong by picking the ball up. There are plenty of comments here about why she should have expected to have it conceded and thought it was conceded etc etc
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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:37 pm

I don't think anyone thinks Lee was completely right, clearly by the strict interpretation of the rules she was wrong and that's why she was penalised. The issue isn't whether what she did was right, it's whether the way the Europeans reacted to it was (morally) right. Which it wasn't.
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Post by George1507 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:40 pm

Davie wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:In matchplay you can let rule breaches slide, and to do so would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the tournament was played. That's why she's apologised.

Are you sure about that? Seemed to be a consensus that the match referee was left with no option when Lee picked up. The match referee said so himself. EU captain asked the match referee if anything could be done retrospectively and his reply was that all they could do was conceded the 18th. The 17th hole was over when Lee picked up the ball.

Are you suggesting the match referee was wrong?

If the referee was on top of the situation, he (or she - don't know who it was) - could have stopped the game before the 18th tee, and made Angela Lee replace her ball and putt out. It's allowed in the RoG, and I am sure that it would have been better than what happened.

The whole thing was totally unnecessary.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:46 pm

The voice of sanity!
Thanks George, Completely agree.

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Post by LadyPutt on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 2:50 pm

In matchplay, unless I'm told to "pick it up" or "that's good" or something to that effect, I have always putted out, even if it's a six-inch tiddler as it was once in a club friendly match when my playing partner looked at me with a quizzical look, I returned the look and shrugged my shoulders but still tapped the ball in the hole. We assumed our opponents didn't quite understand the rules about conceding putts in matchplay which turned out to be true when we pointedly gave a putt at the next hole and were asked "Oh, can you do that?". Doh

But in this case these are professional golfers and all four of them should know better. I didn't see it but it sounds to me as if it was all a bit of gamesmanship on both sides. As it was, Europe did what so many European sides in both Solheim and Ryder Cups have done in the past and that's prove that they can't play singles! An 8½ to 3½ trouncing is what lost the Cup, not a conceded putt (or not).
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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 3:07 pm

George1507 wrote:
Davie wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:In matchplay you can let rule breaches slide, and to do so would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the tournament was played. That's why she's apologised.

Are you sure about that? Seemed to be a consensus that the match referee was left with no option when Lee picked up. The match referee said so himself. EU captain asked the match referee if anything could be done retrospectively and his reply was that all they could do was conceded the 18th. The 17th hole was over when Lee picked up the ball.

Are you suggesting the match referee was wrong?

If the referee was on top of the situation, he (or she - don't know who it was) - could have stopped the game before the 18th tee, and made Angela Lee replace her ball and putt out. It's allowed in the RoG, and I am sure that it would have been better than what happened.

The whole thing was totally unnecessary.

Which rule of golf is that? As soon as she lifted the ball without marking it was a one stroke penalty and hence loss of hole.

There is a decision apparently that states they could do that if there had been some verbal communication that was misinterpreted but according to the match official this wasn't the case here. He stated (before the 18th hole was started) that Europe had no options other than to concede 18

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 3:25 pm

No option to retrospectively reverse their decision to claim the hole . They shouldn't have claimed it in the first place.
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Post by George1507 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:19 pm

Davie wrote:
George1507 wrote:
Davie wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:In matchplay you can let rule breaches slide, and to do so would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the tournament was played. That's why she's apologised.

Are you sure about that? Seemed to be a consensus that the match referee was left with no option when Lee picked up. The match referee said so himself. EU captain asked the match referee if anything could be done retrospectively and his reply was that all they could do was conceded the 18th. The 17th hole was over when Lee picked up the ball.

Are you suggesting the match referee was wrong?

If the referee was on top of the situation, he (or she - don't know who it was) - could have stopped the game before the 18th tee, and made Angela Lee replace her ball and putt out. It's allowed in the RoG, and I am sure that it would have been better than what happened.

The whole thing was totally unnecessary.

Which rule of golf is that? As soon as she lifted the ball without marking it was a one stroke penalty and hence loss of hole.

There is a decision apparently that states they could do that if there had been some verbal communication that was misinterpreted but according to the match official this wasn't the case here. He stated (before the 18th hole was started) that Europe had no options other than to concede 18

Decisions 2-4/3 and 2-4/3.5 cover a situation where a player thinks he has been told that a putt is conceded - where it isn't, and where a caddie concedes a putt, which he can't do. It seems the caddie was involved in this fiasco, so they could have invoked either.

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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 4:24 pm

I posted the decision on the other thread. It's not applicable here

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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:54 pm

You have to admit Davie, if you were in Lee's shoes in that exact same instant, you would assume by Hull, one of your opponents, and her caddie, walking off "in the direction" of the next tee,bearing in mind Pettersson is out of view, that the putt was conceded?

Yes, like most of us wise old battle hardened match play experienced golfers, you may well have looked round to check, but I can say that if I'd been made to putt that after they had walked off like that, my response would have been "ok, but next time can you all remain where you are until I've finished up, as per golfing etiquette?"

Hull, whether she admits it or not, gave the impression the putt was conceded, I would guess that's probably why she was so upset.

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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 5:57 pm

Actually, I wouldn't have said anything, they would've just got "the glare" haha

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Post by Davie on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 7:42 pm

gw wrote:You have to admit Davie, if you were in Lee's shoes in that exact same instant, you would assume by Hull, one of your opponents, and her caddie, walking off "in the direction" of the next tee,bearing in mind Pettersson is out of view, that the putt was conceded?  

but that is exactly my point. She was out of view of the cameras .. not of the players. If someone came up with a camera shot that showed SP was also marching off to the next tee I would probably change my opinion. But I've not seen any such footage

All along I've posed questions .. not made any statements of fact (as others have done) which were really just opinions.

Also as I've said all along though - a simple "is that good" would have avoided all this and we would be talking about the great comeback instead of this bitter episode


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Post by gw on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:39 pm

Yes Pettersson is out of view, she's behind Lee, all Lee can see is Hull, her caddie and even her own teams caddies all move, so that's where I believe the problem is, Hull gave the impression the putt was good by walking off.

Oh well, enough of this one.....at least it worked out for the best in the end.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 8:31 am

Davie

The next time you are the left alone on a green while the rest of your foursomes group are standing on the following tee will you be putting out?
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Post by Davie on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 8:43 am

No Mac I will already have made my putt

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Post by JAS on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 7:41 am

Stayed out of this one until I'd seen the incident, now I have

1. Pettersen did absolutely nothing wrong within the rules of golf
2. Lee made a clear rookie mistake
3. In retrospect you have to question the benefit or otherwise. Was it worth it given the singles results...probably not. Fair play to Inkster who clearly used it to fire up the Americans for the singles and well done to them.

Regarding the ruling. Unless you clearly hear a concession it's NOT a concession. It's up to your opponent(s) to consider if a putt is good, not you, not a caddie, not your captain, not your teammate, not the referee. A concession should take the form of "yep that's good" or similar, maybe your opponent will pick up for you etc. What is NOT indicative of a concession is your opponent not looking at you or indeed walking away. In the absence of "Yep pick it up" you have to assume they want you to putt out.

Sportsmanship, etiquette, yes it's part of the game and the bigger picture but here's the thing...it's not 100% mandatory, sometimes in high stakes contests it intermingles with gamesmanship. You can look back through Ryder Cup archives and see lots of  similar incidents.

The aftermath...despite winning overall I suspect s section of the American golf watching public will have it in for Pettersen. The same ones bleating on about poor sportsmanship will be the same ones who will turn up at LPGA tour events to heckle and boo her. Hope I'm wrong but I'd be pleasantly surprised if that doesn't happen.

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Post by gw on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 8:00 am

I dont think anyone disagrees with that JAS, it's not a concession going by the rules, but the few Ryder Cups and Volvo Matchplay's I've been to, walking off to the next tee without saying anything was common place, which I must admit I thought was strange when I first witnessed it.

I think it's time the rules for competition matchplay are updated to make it mandatory to hole out.

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Post by golfermartin on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 9:33 am

I would totally disagree with making it mandatory to hole out in matchplay. The "gimme" is a legitimate tactic in matchplay. Giving "knee knockers" early on and not when crucial all adds to the mental test. We have people at our club who give nothing. This is well known and when you play them you know what to expect. It doesn't stop me giving them putts though.

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Post by Shotrock on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 1:08 pm

JAS - I would bet dollars to donuts that Pettersen (and Hull) - by not conceding that short putt and bolting off the green - just bought her self plenty of "that's good" from vocal minority in upcoming play on US soil.

Bad sportsmanship on her part will breed bad sportsmanship for a bunch of US yahoos.

That's unfortunate, but don't forget that Pettersen can avoid any clash by not competing here in the states. I suspect she's unlikely to do that for a multitude of reasons.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:19 pm

You don't give a putt in a match play comp and in return can expect vitriol from a vocal minority.
Or alternatively 'go play with your own ball'
Say no more about sportsmanship.........
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Post by George1507 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:35 pm

JAS wrote:Stayed out of this one until I'd seen the incident, now I have

1. Pettersen did absolutely nothing wrong within the rules of golf
2. Lee made a clear rookie mistake
3. In retrospect you have to question the benefit or otherwise. Was it worth it given the singles results...probably not. Fair play to Inkster who clearly used it to fire up the Americans for the singles and well done to them.

Regarding the ruling. Unless you clearly hear a concession it's NOT a concession. It's up to your opponent(s) to consider if a putt is good, not you, not a caddie, not your captain, not your teammate, not the referee. A concession should take the form of "yep that's good" or similar, maybe your opponent will pick up for you etc. What is NOT indicative of a concession is your opponent not looking at you or indeed walking away. In the absence of "Yep pick it up" you have to assume they want you to putt out.


Petterson may not have done anything outside of the rules, but she was clearly guilty of breaching the spirit. And somebody did say that the putt was good, it may have been one of the European caddies. Now it wasn't either Hull or Petterson, but someone did say something, because the referee was in the process of announcing the hole as a half when the Europeans stopped him. It was an error by Angela Lee to pick the ball up - and someone needs to explain to her that caddies can't concede putts.

Contrition on Petterson's part now is too late. She's going to be a target for all sorts of vitriol now. Something that happened in a split second is now going to come back to haunt her.

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Post by Davie on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 4:10 pm

George1507 wrote:And somebody did say that the putt was good, it may have been one of the European caddies. Now it wasn't either Hull or Petterson, but someone did say something, because the referee was in the process of announcing the hole as a half when the Europeans stopped him.

I don't know how you jumped the that conclusion that someone said it was good. The referee when interviewed afterwards said he'd spoken to all 4 players and caddies and no one had said "good".

He may have made a mistake himself by starting to announce the hole as a half, but he clearly said no one had said "good"

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