Madeleine McCann - Met police granted another £2m to continue search !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:29 am

First topic message reminder :

Every parent's worse nightmare and my heart goes out to the MCCann's.... although the thought of leaving my kids in a hotel room and going to dinner is alien to me.....BUT no one is perfect.....

The £2million will bring the running total spent to £12 million and as children get abducted over here every year by people they either know or by strangers one does question the wisdom of spending more resources that could be better used searching for fresher cases......




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Post by President Trump on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:19 pm

Yeah and to think he left his 70k a year job as a top Civil servant to help the McCann's (Some business man footed his wage bill), from what I have read on him he just seems to be a spin doctor brought in to help with their image

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 1:24 pm

He was head of the media monitoring unit for the government.

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/clarence-mitchell/42/46b/587

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 25 Sep 2015, 4:34 pm

The thing about this Tanner sighting is that I'm of the persuasion she must have seen something however relevant or irrelevant.

I mean If my brother came to me and said he'd accidentally killed my neice...I certainly wouldn't be making up a story for him and he's blood..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

Rather than start a new thread I've uploaded this one..

See.....The Portuguese detective who won his appeal against the McCann's has had his win upheld by the High Court......

Seems to be a strange case this one..........My guess is that the dear little girl died on the night she went missing........By person or persons unknown.....

The only good thing to come out of this case is that Parents will hopefully refrain from going out and leaving the kids alone...

Don't believe in much...But I believe in Sod's law..

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 6:37 pm

Indeed, a very strange case.

The Sniffer Dogs certainly think so anyway. It confused the hell out of them that their findings have come to nothing but yawns of disinterest and no charges.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 11:14 am

At present nobody (apart from the killers) know the truth. However, one thing is certain the parents are guilty of gross negligence. What parents in their right mind go out and leave a toddler alone in a strange country so they can bevvy it up?
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Post by SecretFly on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:At present nobody (apart from the killers) know the truth. However, one thing is certain the parents are guilty of gross negligence. What parents in their right mind go out and leave a toddler alone in a strange country so they can bevvy it up?

People don't know the truth because there has been no trial. According to some Portuguese law officials there has always been ample evidence for a trial...but................................. well a good documentary (perhaps the most detailed, methodical and all encompassing) is one by a guy called Richard D. Hall. It's not important as regards any assumptions he might arrive with or end up having but his presentation simply supplies oodles more detail on the case than any I've ever seen.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 1:00 pm

Before there is a trial though there has to be an end product ie a body found etc. Until that happens I can't see how a trial can happen.

I have heard lots of stuff such as traces of Maddie's blood in the flat, sniffer dogs attracted to the boot of the McCann's hired car and no fingerprints on the window at the property apart from the McCann's where the intruder supposedly entered through. All very interesting but the McCann's (from the gullible) have sympathy protecting them.
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Post by SecretFly on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 1:09 pm

There have I think been murder trials (and I think convictions) in the absence of a found body before though.

But even a Negligence trial might throw up all kinds of extra issues that to date have remained beneath the radar.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 1:16 pm

SecretFly wrote:There have I think been murder trials (and I think convictions) in the absence of a found body before though.

But even a Negligence trial might throw up all kinds of extra issues that to date have remained beneath the radar.

I can't see that being possible though as it could be argued (very remote possibility I know) that she is still alive having been illegally adopted or something. In this instance I do think a body is needed unless some new ground-breaking evidence can prove she is dead.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 1:28 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:At present nobody (apart from the killers) know the truth. However, one thing is certain the parents are guilty of gross negligence. What parents in their right mind go out and leave a toddler alone in a strange country so they can bevvy it up?

Parents who know they can get rich and famous by playing the victim card......

I wonder if they were a black couple if they'd have gotten the same government support....
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Post by dummy_half on Sun 19 Feb 2017, 12:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:There have I think been murder trials (and I think convictions) in the absence of a found body before though.

But even a Negligence trial might throw up all kinds of extra issues that to date have remained beneath the radar.

True in the UK - iirc, the legislation was changed about 7 or 8 years ago to allow the CPS to pursue a murder charge even in the absence of a body (or other conclusive forensic evidence of a death). I was actually involved in a case that ended up in this situation (providing specialist services to the Met Police forensics team), and know there was a murder conviction handed down.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Feb 2017, 12:56 pm

dummy_half wrote:
SecretFly wrote:There have I think been murder trials (and I think convictions) in the absence of a found body before though.

But even a Negligence trial might throw up all kinds of extra issues that to date have remained beneath the radar.

True in the UK - iirc, the legislation was changed about 7 or 8 years ago to allow the CPS to pursue a murder charge even in the absence of a body (or other conclusive forensic evidence of a death). I was actually involved in a case that ended up in this situation (providing specialist services to the Met Police forensics team), and know there was a murder conviction handed down.

But I can't see that happening in this case given the circumstances. A British family being charged by Portuguese police without a body being found. Highly unlikely especially when the McCann's have financial clout and sympathy vote from mugs.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 12:18 pm

Can I suggest people in this thread be very careful what they're saying and/or implying...
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 1:03 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Can I suggest people in this thread be very careful what they're saying and/or implying...

Thanks for the warning. On with the legitimate discussion.

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Post by rodders on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 3:46 pm

Anyone who reads up on the publicly available information on this case, can't fail to know with almost 100% certainty what happened.

Dig a bit deeper again and you might find something a lot more sinister but will leave it at that.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 5:32 pm

rodders wrote:Anyone who reads up on the publicly available information on this case, can't fail to know with almost 100% certainty what happened.


Agreed. However, one thing cannot be denied in that they showed gross negligence leaving one 3-year-old and two 2-year-old children alone in a strange country whilst they jollied it up in a pub.
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Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 5:43 pm

Disagree that you can know with anything near certainty what happened.

I do think you can pretty much rule out some of the most popular narratives though.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 7:05 pm

If you can't be close to being certain of any of the narratives then I'm not so certain you can pretty much rule out any of them either.

There are one, two, three or four plausible happenings around the disappearance.  What is clear, the more detail you hear, is that it is/was one weird case with the number of and kinds of people popping in and out of the story.

I wouldn't for a moment say that I could categorically pick one of the versions as the true one - but the kinds of people that became actively involved in the story (proven not speculative) almost from day one suggests the true story is a very convoluted one indeed.

In general, I'm getting tired of mysteries.  So many events now have so many potential versions attached to them that sometimes I feel that's the very purpose of the versions - to blur the truth and almost inevitably lead to a situation where the truth can never be fully extracted from the mess of possibles.  I'd just like to see a few high profile court cases with some of these lingering Who-done-its to clear the air and bring a degree of sanity back to the idea of guilt and innocence.

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Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:47 pm

Of course you can. If you were travelling from A to B and there is no rail route I don't need to know that you walked to rule out you taking the train.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:50 pm

That's a nice hypothetical. Now onto the specifics then. Which versions do you distinctly rule out and why?

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Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:52 pm

I would rule out the burglary theory, and probably the planned kidnapping (with less certainty), for the reasons in my previous post.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:52 pm

Scottrf wrote:Of course you can. If you were travelling from A to B and there is no rail route I don't need to know that you walked to rule out you taking the train.

btw...I'd hope very much that someone trying to evade suspicion wouldn't claim to have taken a train along a route that didn't have one.

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Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:55 pm

P.s. congrats on being the first person on the internet to not take an analogy completely literally.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:57 pm

Scottrf wrote:I would rule out the burglary theory, and probably the planned kidnapping (with less certainty), for the reasons in my previous post.

Yes, but I don't think burglary is a serious theory any longer, if at all (by all means correct me if it still is being discussed seriously) - and I'm not sure that theory lasted too long as a serious possibility immediately after the incident.

I think there are a number of existing possibilities that many people think about now - all of them I think have a very sinister motivation beyond merely a burglary thwarted - from simple kidnapping, to negligence gone wrong, to murder to much more involved and complex sub-plots.

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Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 10:03 pm

It was discussed seriously by all major media less than a year ago. I don't really know what the developments have been since (except the guy on breakfast TV recently who thinks she walked off).

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Feb 2017, 11:05 pm

Well then you're right. I wouldn't believe a burglary tale for a blasted second. Wink

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Post by rodders on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 10:01 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
rodders wrote:Anyone who reads up on the publicly available information on this case, can't fail to know with almost 100% certainty what happened.


Agreed. However, one thing cannot be denied in that they showed gross negligence leaving one 3-year-old and two 2-year-old children alone in a strange country whilst they jollied it up in a pub.

That's not even what I mean. Assuming even the most obvious explanation and the one believed by the Portuguese police leading the investigation, the one that almost all the available evidence points to, as opposed to the popularly promoted one which there is no credible evidence for.

Even if that was what happened, none of that would explain what has followed. The behavior of the McCann's and their party towards the investigation and inconsistent, vague and contradictory (and in some cases bizarre) statements, which are all publicly available. The direct involvement from the UK foreign office and specifically a certain very high profile minister, the role of the media in the UK played. The refusal of the UK to release information under freedom of information around conversations with the Portuguese Government on the case, on grounds of National security.

I'm not going to lead folks with what I personally believe is at the heart of this but all the information is out there to come to a fairly obvious conclusion. A far fetched one but not without precedent.
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Post by Scottrf on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 10:44 am

My point was really even if you think you know who is involved, how can sure be sure of the actual act. For example accident or not?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

rodders wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
rodders wrote:Anyone who reads up on the publicly available information on this case, can't fail to know with almost 100% certainty what happened.


Agreed. However, one thing cannot be denied in that they showed gross negligence leaving one 3-year-old and two 2-year-old children alone in a strange country whilst they jollied it up in a pub.

That's not even what I mean. Assuming even the most obvious explanation and the one believed by the Portuguese police leading the investigation, the one that almost all the available evidence points to, as opposed to the popularly promoted one which there is no credible evidence for.

Even if that was what happened, none of that would explain what has followed. The behavior of the McCann's and their party towards the investigation and inconsistent, vague and contradictory (and in some cases bizarre) statements, which are all publicly available. The direct involvement from the UK foreign office and specifically a certain very high profile minister, the role of the media in the UK played. The refusal of the UK to release information under freedom of information around conversations with the Portuguese Government on the case, on grounds of National security.

I'm not going to lead folks with what I personally believe is at the heart of this but all the information is out there to come to a fairly obvious conclusion. A far fetched one but not without precedent.

I'm a little surprised by that rodders. An unexpected new member of the tin-foil-hat movement? Wink I'll tell Trump. He was annoyed that you weren't coming on board. This will put a bounce in his step.

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Post by rodders on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:00 pm

Whether it was an accident or not is somewhat irrelevant. The weight of evidence points to a fake abduction involving not just the parents but the entire party - and possibly extending far beyond.

If that is the case then, then the real question is why on earth would a group of people, some apparently just casual acquaintances, go to such lengths to frustrate and disrupt an investigation into the apparent and alleged death of 1 young girl, accidental or otherwise.  

These are all wealthy professional people, in the Shannon Mathews case the motive was obviously money. What on earth would motivate all these people, including the parents, to this day to refuse to answer key questions around the night of the disappearance and days leading up to it? To risk being prosecution themselves in attempts to mislead the police?

The answer for me is that they weren't covering up for Gerry and Kate (who are official arguidos in the case in case anyone throws the libel card), they were obviously hiding something else for themselves. That much is obvious to me, the "what" people can come to their own conclusions.
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Post by Scottrf on Sat 25 Feb 2017, 10:42 am

Quite interesting

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/p/theory-english.html?m=1

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Post by rodders on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 9:59 am

Scottrf wrote:Quite interesting

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/p/theory-english.html?m=1

A good stab at what happened for sure.

Certainly I believe he's correct on several things - namely that whatever happened didn't happen on that night but one of the previous ones and elaborate attempts were made to cover up by the McCann's and the others.

Would someone go to such lengths to cover up an accident, even if it involved alleged neglect?

In my view no - they were covering something far more sinister and if you read much more into this the evidence supports this.
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Post by Scottrf on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 10:20 am

That's my major problem with cover up theories; you're rely on unwavering loyalty from people who on the face of it don't have enough reason to go along with it.

I know what you're implying and while there are worrying pieces of evidence, I don't think there's anything like enough without making big leaps. You'd have to have found the body I think.

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Post by rodders on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 11:01 am

One thing is for sure it one of the scandals of modern times that no one has been charged.

A group of people know exactly what happened on that trip and to that little girl.
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 12:16 pm

A group of people know exactly what happened - yes .  The people who were directly involved.  And it is 'people' and not 'person'.  

But there is also another group of people who have a pretty damn good idea what happened - the big or unusually interested names/organisations that came onboard to obstruct and/or control the 'narrative'.  Rodders alluded to a few of them above earlier.  

And we have yet another group of people who are knowingly or have knowingly taken and made a lot of money pretending there are leads after leads that turn into nothing - and some of those people that were 'leading the investigation', who got paid lovely sums, have their own dubious histories that would challenge any theory about how they could miraculously become involved with parents looking to find out the truth about their daughter.

This occurrence has attracted an ocean full of assorted sharks and sea snakes, all pushing 'misinformation', false and crap 'leads', creating a mess of confusion, and that just does not happen at such an intense level unless big interests are protecting a truth that is bigger than a missing or dead child.

Society itself needs to start demanding that these constant high level cover-ups are not tolerated anymore.  Instead of being asked about Maddie and what she liked and how lovely she was on cosy Morning chatshows, journalists of integrity should be true to their profession, do serious research on the topic at the deeper serious level and put questions about that to the parents.  

Journalists of integrity now need to stand up in many areas and resist the editorial swing of their bosses if they know that swing is being knowingly evasive, is knowingly suppressing information, is knowingly distracting or is knowingly and bluntly deceitful.  In any organisation - in any journalistic organisation (papers, radio, TV, magazines) there must be journalists that are uncomfortable with the in-house editorial angle they are constrained by.  There must be journalists that know they are being complicit in keeping things away from the public so that an 'editorial' position can be maintained by that publication or broadcaster.  Those journalists must begin to question themselves, their conscience and indeed their careers and ask themselves is heavily Editorialised News (that pretends or declares itself to be unbiased) something they really want to be part of.

It's only when journalists of integrity begin to speak out that this culture of oppressive Omerta will be challenged.

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Post by rodders on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 2:13 pm

Good for you fly. protecting a bigger truth is right.

I hope in my lifetime the truth will come out and one of these cretins will grow a conscience and break the silence.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 2:16 pm

My word, we're in full tinfoil territory aren't we? This is a typical example of "We don't know what happened, weren't there and have no actual expertise, but we'll fill in the gaps with all sorts of stuff and peddle it as 'truth'". Not everything without a proven answer is a conspiracy I'm afraid.
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Post by Scottrf on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 2:19 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:My word, we're in full tinfoil territory aren't we? This is a typical example of "We don't know what happened, weren't there and have no actual expertise, but we'll fill in the gaps with all sorts of stuff and peddle it as 'truth'". Not everything without a proven answer is a conspiracy I'm afraid.
I think you're right in certain aspects, but the evidence pointing to it not being an abduction is pretty strong.

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Post by rodders on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 2:41 pm

Scottrf wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:My word, we're in full tinfoil territory aren't we? This is a typical example of "We don't know what happened, weren't there and have no actual expertise, but we'll fill in the gaps with all sorts of stuff and peddle it as 'truth'". Not everything without a proven answer is a conspiracy I'm afraid.
I think you're right in certain aspects, but the evidence pointing to it not being an abduction is pretty strong.

I'd go further and say the evidence pointing to it being an abduction is non-existent and the evidence pointing to a staged abduction overwhelming.

I'd also heard somewhere an expert on child abduction/trafficking stating that there has been no known case in history were an abductor would take the oldest child and leave the 2 younger ones, who would have less memory of their parents. They also said it was impossible that they could have entered the window and left no trace of DNA.

There were also no DNA traces of Madeline in the apartment despite being there for a week, Gerry had to fly home and bring a toothbrush back to get a sample. This points to a deep clean - Kate even washed the soft toy. So rather than immediately search and call the police, the first thing they did after they noticed she was "gone" was make the bed and clean the apartment?  

The Portuguese Police were on to them straight away it was so obvious.
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 2:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:My word, we're in full tinfoil territory aren't we? This is a typical example of "We don't know what happened, weren't there and have no actual expertise, but we'll fill in the gaps with all sorts of stuff and peddle it as 'truth'". Not everything without a proven answer is a conspiracy I'm afraid.

What the hell is a 'conspiracy', navy? Any angle you're afraid of you drop a 'conspiracy' sticker onto.  

I'm talking about a simple case of a missing or dead child
- millions made, millions passed around, millions made by newspapers covering the lovey-dovey stuff and the 'gosh, OMG could this be Maddie? crap,
tons of proven weird British Government involvement,
special investigators that are known to be dubious characters/criminals getting money from the Maddie campaign and wasting it on private lifestyle,
no real leads by any real super resourced intelligence agencies in Britain, (did any of them even care or invest any time in it?)
.... and no child and no body remotely close to being found after so many years.

You call that what you want.  You're a repeat 'tin-foil-hat' soldier when anything questioning official clap-trap comes up.  You believe the 'nobody knows where Maddie is, was or got to' schmaltz if that gives you comfort - and I'll continue to say journalists that think they have any integrity left need to grow a set of balls and prove it.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 3:41 pm

Tumbleweed
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 3:46 pm

Yeah... I'm happy with that response. Thanks.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:39 am

SecretFly wrote:Yeah... I'm happy with that response.  Thanks.
How about:

Spoiler:


and/or:

Spoiler:

No good?
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Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:43 am

Not the official line so much be conspiracy nonsense. No wonder governments can get away with whatever they want.

How about actually looking at the facts of the case?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:50 am

Wonder with some of the McCann are guilty brigade whether the likeability factor comes in...She seems to have the emotional range of a dead fish.

We had that Philpott guy crying every 5 seconds at his press conference and he was vile.

Some people are very organised emotionally but can be lovely people.

Best not to take at face value me thinks.


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Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:53 am

Likeability will impact perceptions, but bigger than that is that the focus of their statements is on exonerating themselves not helping the police find Madeleine. The focus of the people they hired is control of the media and legal side, not a search.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:57 am

I agree......

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Post by rodders on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:50 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Wonder with some of the McCann are guilty brigade whether the likeability factor comes in...She seems to have the emotional range of a dead fish.


Nope - one look at the unanswered questions in the police interview will do it. Once you realize that is just the tip of the ice berg there can be no doubt.

As said previously it is the extent of the alleged cover up, and who is involved, that is the real story here.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:10 am

rodders wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Wonder with some of the McCann are guilty brigade whether the likeability factor comes in...She seems to have the emotional range of a dead fish.


Nope - one look at the unanswered questions in the police interview will do it. Once you realize that is just the tip of the ice berg there can be no doubt.

As said previously it is the extent of the alleged cover up, and who is involved, that is the real story here.

Wasn't referring to you...........I was thinking of people who haven't dug into the case....

Body language is important in a digital age........

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