London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

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London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 01 Oct 2015, 3:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

No, No, No. Why should this lot be allowed in the Pro12 ? Surely RGC1404 should be the next team in the Pro12. London Welsh are not even Welsh, they're English with a Welsh name, anyway here we are:-

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/23951/exclusive-london-welsh-have-initiated-discussions-about-switching-to-pro12/

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:14 am

They don't - just come back in 12 months time to see the same debate recycled

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:40 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

You didn't anser the question, do you find him credible given that he's lied repeatedly in the past

I'll have to be reminded of his quote before I answer that. Can you post it.

Thanks.

You can go back and look up my posts but not his quotes? Talk about avoiding answering

Please post the quote of Bleddyn Phillips you are referring to.

Thanks.

I never mentioned a quote from him, your avoiding answering.


What did Bleddyn Phillips lie about? Can you show me where he lied?

I genuinely don't know which article / quote / statement you are referring to when you say he lied, so if you could point it out then I can answer.

Thanks.

Marty? Where has Bleddyn Phillips lied?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by rodders on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:41 pm

Sounds like Bath are joining the pro12 ... I mean pro13.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:42 pm

Pro 14, saracens will hold their hand. Sorry Pro 15 cos London Welsh are moving any moment.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pro 14, saracens will hold their hand. Sorry Pro 15 cos London Welsh are moving any moment.

I think you mean the Northern Hemisphere Super XV, as Peter Thomas said.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 2:45 pm

Depends if Bath and Saracens get their way otherwise it would be the Super Duper NH League.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Sun 20 Dec 2015, 10:50 am

More reports on 2 London teams joining the Pro12 in today's rugby paper. Cardiff's chairman Peter Thomas getting involved, stating:

"The London market is potentially huge, and it's where the Pro12 should be involved.
The conversations I've had with colleagues in the Welsh regions and in Scotland and Ireland, have been positive, and provided the financial support is there, why not?"

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Dec 2015, 11:03 am

"The London market is potentially huge, and it's where the Pro12 should be involved.
The conversations I've had with colleagues in the Welsh regions and in Scotland and Ireland, have been positive, and provided the financial support is there, why not?"

That is a huge dependency - and where would the money needed come from?

Could WRU and SRU afford to run these teams? Probably not.
Would the TV revenues go up huge amounts? Probably not.
Would there be huge crowds? Probably not.


Then throw in the need for RFU permission and things get more difficult.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 20 Dec 2015, 11:09 am

"Why not."

Because we shouldn't be providing England with two extra fu**ing teams!

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Sun 20 Dec 2015, 1:05 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:"Why not."

Because we shouldn't be providing England with two extra fu**ing teams!

Not to mention that when LW were in the AP, which is apparently a better league with all its riches and better players, they could only draw crowds that were lower than three quarters of the Pro12

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 11:41 am

More news on this today. Guardian reckons that London Scottish and London Welsh will join the Pro12 in 2 seasons time.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by lostinwales on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 11:43 am

marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:"Why not."

Because we shouldn't be providing England with two extra fu**ing teams!

Not to mention that when LW were in the AP, which is apparently a better league with all its riches and better players, they could only draw crowds that were lower than three quarters of the Pro12

Thats because they were sh!te

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 12:57 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:More news on this today. Guardian reckons that London Scottish and London Welsh will join the Pro12 in 2 seasons time.

What does it actually say? ie details behind it.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 12:57 pm

London Polish would fill Twickenham every other week.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:43 pm

You need to sign up to Paul Rees' column in the Guardian. It will be available online at a later date.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:43 pm

So you can't just summarise it?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you can't just summarise it?

In summary London Scottish and London Welsh will join the Pro12 in 2 seasons time Run

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:49 pm

That's not really a summary of the article at all is it Scarlet.

Computer has just caught up to show me the pic now and I reaslise it's a joke!


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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by GavinDragon on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:51 pm

London Welsh have not had much joy on their return to the Championship, although they have at least had a few wins after a season back in the top flight when they lost every match in the league and the European Challenge Cup.

They may not be for much longer in the English system, along with their neighbours London Scottish. The two are being lined up by the Guinness Pro 12, which is anxious to lay down roots in England’s capital as it looks to strengthen itself commercially.

The two clubs would make it the Pro 14. Their entry would not see the two Italian sides, Zebre and Treviso, who as usual are propping up the table, told to take their business elsewhere. With some in Premiership Rugby also seeing the merits of a 14-strong table, all three major leagues in Europe would look the same.

There is still a way to go for London Welsh and London Scottish, not least because there are so many unions involved: the four who make up the Pro 12 and Twickenham, who would need to give permission for the two clubs to play outside its jurisdiction. And then World Rugby could get involved.

There is no doubt that the move is being considered because a recent story in the Rugby Paper was put verbatim on the London Welsh website recently. It quoted the club’s chairman, Bleddyn Phillips, as saying that the move was being considered but that “things were delicate”.

He added that discussions had been held with various parties but that it was a process that would take some time. “It has been interesting and constructive and we hope it will come to fruition.” The Cardiff Blues’ chairman was quoted giving his support to the pair, saying that if the financial support were in place, why not bring them in.

“The conversations I have had with colleagues in Wales, Scotland and Ireland have been positive,” he said. “I am sure the London market is commercially huge and that is where the Pro 12 should be. Given two or three years, I am sure they would be successful and I don’t think the RFU should stand in their way. If there are barriers, let’s kick them down.”

There would be one advantage for London Welsh, who would have to decide whether to remain at Old Deer Park, go back to Oxford or find somewhere else: there would be no relegation.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:55 pm

Cheers. Seems the same issues are there with no movement from that?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by lostinwales on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 3:03 pm

LW pee'd off a lot of people with their general attitude couple with ineptitude on the pitch in the AP. If they do join the Pro12 I really hope they don't cause similar problems


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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 3:12 pm

GavinDragon wrote:London Welsh have not had much joy on their return to the Championship, although they have at least had a few wins after a season back in the top flight when they lost every match in the league and the European Challenge Cup.

They may not be for much longer in the English system, along with their neighbours London Scottish. The two are being lined up by the Guinness Pro 12, which is anxious to lay down roots in England’s capital as it looks to strengthen itself commercially.

The two clubs would make it the Pro 14. Their entry would not see the two Italian sides, Zebre and Treviso, who as usual are propping up the table, told to take their business elsewhere. With some in Premiership Rugby also seeing the merits of a 14-strong table, all three major leagues in Europe would look the same.

There is still a way to go for London Welsh and London Scottish, not least because there are so many unions involved: the four who make up the Pro 12 and Twickenham, who would need to give permission for the two clubs to play outside its jurisdiction. And then World Rugby could get involved.

There is no doubt that the move is being considered because a recent story in the Rugby Paper was put verbatim on the London Welsh website recently. It quoted the club’s chairman, Bleddyn Phillips, as saying that the move was being considered but that “things were delicate”.

He added that discussions had been held with various parties but that it was a process that would take some time. “It has been interesting and constructive and we hope it will come to fruition.” The Cardiff Blues’ chairman was quoted giving his support to the pair, saying that if the financial support were in place, why not bring them in.

“The conversations I have had with colleagues in Wales, Scotland and Ireland have been positive,” he said. “I am sure the London market is commercially huge and that is where the Pro 12 should be. Given two or three years, I am sure they would be successful and I don’t think the RFU should stand in their way. If there are barriers, let’s kick them down.”

There would be one advantage for London Welsh, who would have to decide whether to remain at Old Deer Park, go back to Oxford or find somewhere else: there would be no relegation.

Not sure that's the article I've been told about. Where's it from? and when?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 3:18 pm

Makes sense why you couldn't add in any detail at least.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by HammerofThunor on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 4:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense why you couldn't add in any detail at least.
Laugh

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by GavinDragon on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 5:01 pm

From 'The Breakdown' emailed through to me today.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 12:30 pm

GavinDragon wrote:London Welsh have not had much joy on their return to the Championship, although they have at least had a few wins after a season back in the top flight when they lost every match in the league and the European Challenge Cup.

They may not be for much longer in the English system, along with their neighbours London Scottish. The two are being lined up by the Guinness Pro 12, which is anxious to lay down roots in England’s capital as it looks to strengthen itself commercially.

The two clubs would make it the Pro 14. Their entry would not see the two Italian sides, Zebre and Treviso, who as usual are propping up the table, told to take their business elsewhere. With some in Premiership Rugby also seeing the merits of a 14-strong table, all three major leagues in Europe would look the same.

There is still a way to go for London Welsh and London Scottish, not least because there are so many unions involved: the four who make up the Pro 12 and Twickenham, who would need to give permission for the two clubs to play outside its jurisdiction. And then World Rugby could get involved.

There is no doubt that the move is being considered because a recent story in the Rugby Paper was put verbatim on the London Welsh website recently. It quoted the club’s chairman, Bleddyn Phillips, as saying that the move was being considered but that “things were delicate”.

He added that discussions had been held with various parties but that it was a process that would take some time. “It has been interesting and constructive and we hope it will come to fruition.” The Cardiff Blues’ chairman was quoted giving his support to the pair, saying that if the financial support were in place, why not bring them in.

“The conversations I have had with colleagues in Wales, Scotland and Ireland have been positive,” he said. “I am sure the London market is commercially huge and that is where the Pro 12 should be. Given two or three years, I am sure they would be successful and I don’t think the RFU should stand in their way. If there are barriers, let’s kick them down.”

There would be one advantage for London Welsh, who would have to decide whether to remain at Old Deer Park, go back to Oxford or find somewhere else: there would be no relegation.
Can anyone think of a single reason the RFU would go along with this? The RFU are in talks with the Premiership clubs about a new framework agreement. The RFU will have things they want e.g. enhanced player access. The clubs will have things they want e.g. fourteen teams and no relegation. I cannot see that new commercial competitors to two of the AP clubs are on either sides' agendas.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 12:36 pm

GavinDragon wrote:From 'The Breakdown' emailed through to me today.

cheers

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 12:39 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Can anyone think of a single reason the RFU would go along with this?  The RFU are in talks with the Premiership clubs about a new framework agreement.  The RFU will have things they want e.g. enhanced player access. The clubs will have things they want e.g. fourteen teams and no relegation.  I cannot see that new commercial competitors to two of the AP clubs are on either sides' agendas.  

AP clubs? It would possibly benefit the RFU and PRL to have them out of the way, not have to pay them compensation when the AP is ringfenced, and have 2 less clubs whinging about lack of promotion.


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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 12:50 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Can anyone think of a single reason the RFU would go along with this?  The RFU are in talks with the Premiership clubs about a new framework agreement.  The RFU will have things they want e.g. enhanced player access. The clubs will have things they want e.g. fourteen teams and no relegation.  I cannot see that new commercial competitors to two of the AP clubs are on either sides' agendas.  

AP clubs? It would possibly benefit the RFU and PRL to have them out of the way, not have to pay them compensation when the AP is ringfenced, and have 2 less clubs whinging about lack of promotion.

Will clubs whinge? Apart from Bristol and Yorkshire Carnegie which clubs actually want promotion? I am sure most know they do not have the finance or infrastructure to be promoted.

Who would want to do a London Welsh - go up, move grounds to a different city, take a beating every week, become a laughing stock and then go back to where you started.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 12:52 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Can anyone think of a single reason the RFU would go along with this?  The RFU are in talks with the Premiership clubs about a new framework agreement.  The RFU will have things they want e.g. enhanced player access. The clubs will have things they want e.g. fourteen teams and no relegation.  I cannot see that new commercial competitors to two of the AP clubs are on either sides' agendas.  

AP clubs? It would possibly benefit the RFU and PRL to have them out of the way, not have to pay them compensation when the AP is ringfenced, and have 2 less clubs whinging about lack of promotion.

Will clubs whinge? Apart from Bristol and Yorkshire Carnegie which clubs actually want promotion? I am sure most know they do not have the finance or infrastructure to be promoted.

Who would want to do a London Welsh - go up, move grounds to a different city, take a beating every week, become a laughing stock and then go back to where you started.

If they are not bothered, then why do they want millions in compensation from PRL and RFU?

I'll make it clear though, I'm not bothered about these 2 teams joining the Pro12. You can't polish a turd.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 12:56 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Can anyone think of a single reason the RFU would go along with this?  The RFU are in talks with the Premiership clubs about a new framework agreement.  The RFU will have things they want e.g. enhanced player access. The clubs will have things they want e.g. fourteen teams and no relegation.  I cannot see that new commercial competitors to two of the AP clubs are on either sides' agendas.  

AP clubs? It would possibly benefit the RFU and PRL to have them out of the way, not have to pay them compensation when the AP is ringfenced, and have 2 less clubs whinging about lack of promotion.

Will clubs whinge? Apart from Bristol and Yorkshire Carnegie which clubs actually want promotion? I am sure most know they do not have the finance or infrastructure to be promoted.

Who would want to do a London Welsh - go up, move grounds to a different city, take a beating every week, become a laughing stock and then go back to where you started.

If they are not bothered, then why do they want millions in compensation from PRL and RFU?

I'll make it clear though, I'm not bothered about these 2 teams joining the Pro12. You can't polish a turd.

Then why keep going on about it, you don't like or want the Pro 12 so how about just making it a non subject?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Then why keep going on about it, you don't like or want the Pro 12 so how about just making it a non subject?

Need to raise awareness.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:42 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Then why keep going on about it, you don't like or want the Pro 12 so how about just making it a non subject?

Need to raise awareness.

That you don't like the league?

Im pretty sure the world is aware

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Griff on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Then why keep going on about it, you don't like or want the Pro 12 so how about just making it a non subject?

Need to raise awareness.

That you don't like the league?

Im pretty sure the world is aware

Or perhaps more like 50-100 blokes on the internet Wink

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:47 pm

Griff wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Then why keep going on about it, you don't like or want the Pro 12 so how about just making it a non subject?

Need to raise awareness.

That you don't like the league?

Im pretty sure the world is aware

Or perhaps more like 50-100 blokes on the internet Wink

Since hes been writing to Celtic Rugby I doubt it stops there, Im betting Tom Jones has been getting letters too with skid marked jocks begging him to save Welsh rugby from the hands of the evil Irish Shocked

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Then why keep going on about it, you don't like or want the Pro 12 so how about just making it a non subject?

Need to raise awareness.

That you don't like the league?

Im pretty sure the world is aware

No, that the league is defective when compared to the other pro leagues in the Northern Hemisphere.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:52 pm

Why is it defective/lame though?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it defective/lame though?

Because he said so

He sees the league should be doing one thing when it was actually set up for a different reason and fulfilling its purpose and can't grasp that its still growing and evolving especially since its still in its infancy compared to the other leagues in the NH. Small minds do fail to grasp these things though.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 1:55 pm

I like the league, even as someone who doesn't have a team in it. Prefer it to the French.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it defective/lame though?

Because it doesn't provide the teams, with enough resources to compete with the teams in the other pro leagues in the Northern Hemisphere.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:05 pm

Really? But the only way you can really compare is in Europe where for the last 12 years the Pro 12 teams have competed very well.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:05 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it defective/lame though?

Because it doesn't provide the teams, with enough resources to compete with the teams in the other pro leagues in the Northern Hemisphere.

Despite the clubs from the Pro12 showing they can beat the top teams from the Top14 and AP and sign some of the top players but other than that yeah they can't compete

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it defective/lame though?

Because it doesn't provide the teams, with enough resources to compete with the teams in the other pro leagues in the Northern Hemisphere.

Despite the clubs from the Pro12 showing they can beat the top teams from the Top14 and AP and sign some of the top players but other than that yeah they can't compete

As I've said previously, if you're happy with your trophy record, good for you.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:10 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it defective/lame though?

Because it doesn't provide the teams, with enough resources to compete with the teams in the other pro leagues in the Northern Hemisphere.

Despite the clubs from the Pro12 showing they can beat the top teams from the Top14 and AP and sign some of the top players but other than that yeah they can't compete

As I've said previously, if you're happy with your trophy record, good for you.

Only one team can win a competition every year so someone will lose out somewhere it doesn't mean the leagues defective

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:11 pm

If you go by the winners alone and ignore the ability to compete ie actual games and how they've gone, surely it's the English leage which is defective?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you go by the winners alone and ignore the ability to compete ie actual games and how they've gone, surely it's the English leage which is defective?

Do you think the English league is defective? I don't. Great product. Greatr viewwing. Great players, generates lots of income.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:14 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If you go by the winners alone and ignore the ability to compete ie actual games and how they've gone, surely it's the English leage which is defective?

Do you think the English league is defective? I don't. Great product. Greatr viewwing. Great players, generates lots of income.

So now its about quality, income, and the players and not competiveness? Which one is it?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:15 pm

You've just said the Pro 12 is defective as it can't compete with the other leagues; in the only comparison available it's doing much better than competing or winning as you changed it to than the Aviva so how can you think the Pro 12 is defective but the Aviva isn't?

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If you go by the winners alone and ignore the ability to compete ie actual games and how they've gone, surely it's the English leage which is defective?

Do you think the English league is defective? I don't. Great product. Greatr viewwing. Great players, generates lots of income.

So now its about quality, income, and the players and not competiveness? Which one is it?

All of them. I've posted this tens of times. And you've responded tens of times.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

Post by Chunky Norwich on Fri 08 Jan 2016, 2:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've just said the Pro 12 is defective as it can't compete with the other leagues; in the only comparison available it's doing much better than competing or winning as you changed it to than the Aviva so how can you think the Pro 12 is defective but the Aviva isn't?

That's just 1 reason. There are many others which we've spoken about before. The best way of illustrating the Pro12's incompetence is the value it's stakeholders place in it. Which, as I keep saying is £30m behind it's nearest rival.

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Re: London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

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