Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

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Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by McLaren on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 7:07 pm

http://scottishgolfpodcast.com/mike-keiser-course/


Ru MacDonald wrote:At the same time Mike Keiser was losing patience with the Oregon State for a planned sixth course at Bandon Dunes he was hatching plans for his first course in Scotland in one of golf’s famous towns.

The Embo site earmarked for development sits on the edge of the famous golfing town of Dornoch in the Scottish Highlands, the birthplace of Donald Ross no less and home to one of Scotland’s great links courses Royal Dornoch which will celebrate 400 years of golf next year.

In an interview with Golf.com’s Alan Shipnuck Keiser admits the project remains very much in the feasibility stage of development with several environmental factors to overcome. In the candid interview it was clear that Scotland has made a big impression on Keiser who recalls spending countless summers enjoying the delights of the Scottish links,

“Having watched tour buses pour out avid American golfers for the last 20/30 years in a very remote place. I felt if Dornoch works then Bandon will work.”

Our first look of the site certainly whetted our appetite. While not the gigantic and imposing dunes of Trump Scotland the subtle dune scape that you find in the north region is blessed with natural humps and bumps so synonyms with the game of golf found on Scottish links.

Embo Estate, the site of a new golf course near Dornoch The proposed site of Mike Keiser’s course near Dornoch.
So what will this mean for Dornoch? Well lets not forget that Dornoch already receives in excess of 7,000 visitor rounds a year making it one of the busiest venues in Scottish golf tourism. The town is very much reliant on the huge numbers of golfers which pass through every summer. Away from Dornoch courses like Tain, Golspie and Brora are popular tracks but there is no doubt the addition of another notable links course in the area can replicate what we’ve seen with other modern course developments such as Castle Stuart & Trump Scotland. Each venue has halted the procession of tour buses that race round the country and instead provide a base from which golfers can explore the region and discover the amazing ‘hidden gems’ which they would have otherwise have driven past.

Mike Keiser's proposed new golf course next to Royal Dornoch
Embo Estate’s close proximity to Royal Dornoch Golf Club.
We’ll watch on in hope this project gets off the ground in the coming months. No doubt that Mr Keiser will run into some issues along the way, most notably the environmental constraints but if anything can be learned from Donald Trump’s project three hours south in Aberdeen it’s the fact that us Scots appreciate compromise and morality.

Good luck.



Sounds nice and I doubt he will be as much of an ass hole as Trump, but I don't think we need to destroy anymore links land in Scotland.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:23 pm

Mike Keiser's projects in Nova Scotia are supposed to be fabulous as well.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by Shotrock on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 8:27 pm

Dornoch, Golspie, Brora, Tain ... and now this ... reason to visit the Highlands!

(Golspie doesn't get much attention, but it's a course I would hardly every tire of.)

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 9:24 pm

Why do you care Mac? By your own admission you've rarely been north of Edinburgh

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by McLaren on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 9:47 pm

Super

What an odd way to think about things. I haven't been to the artic but I don't want the ice cap to melt.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Wed 28 Oct 2015, 10:09 pm

Comparing a spit of land to an entire continent is a bit silly Mac, especially as you can't do a thing to stop it melting or getting thicker), but the comparison to yourself and a rent-a-protester is perfectly reasonable.

Scotland has over 6000 miles of coastline, and about 550 courses. If about 25% are links, we're not exactly going to run out of coastline any time soon, so stick that up your jacksy.

I can imagine if this was Trump, you'd have a real cob on, but because it isn't, you're synthetic outrage is only turned up a notch or two, not the 11 it might be if it was wiggy.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by Bob_the_Job on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 11:19 am

If a new course can be built, make money and not put other courses out of businesses then it's obviously needed. If it puts other courses out of business then they should have upped their game. Basic economics. From the article it would seem Keiser thinks there is a good business case in tapping into the golf tourists that are already making their way to the area. Hard to fault the logic. It's not an area I've played, but given how far north it is, I imagine it's quite a short season.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 11:38 am

Sounds more like it's consolidating the region as a tourist hub for golf. Dornoch, Castle Stewart, Nairn and this, not a bad portfolio.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by McLaren on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 3:31 pm

Super, it is a pretty basic concept to accept that people can prefer the continued existence of natural spaces without ever actually visiting them.

As someone who claims to be in the geology field you should know that the proportion of the Scottish coastline which is considered links land is pretty small. According to Robert price in "Scotlands Golf courses" blown sand forming coastal dunes/links land occupies only 300 miles out of Scotlands 7500 miles of coastline.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 3:57 pm

and how many tears do you shed when someone builds a supermarket or a housing estate or an industrial estate? None.

You seems to think you are some sort of guardian of where and when a golf course can be built, as if only you know best and only you have the ability to tell when it is a good idea.

As you've never really traveled around your own country, it's clear you have no understanding of how much of the coastal environment could be used for links golf, and as usual you refer to your first hastily googled source as your citation.

Anyone who has ever been around the coast would know that much more than the 0.04% (you claim as suitable links land) of Scotlands coastline could be used for links. What is actually more likely is that 0.04% of Scotland's coastline is links golf courses.

It's also clear that when visiting your Holy Land TOC, it's completely escaped your attention that the dune system has continued to grow OUTWARDS from the courses, thus still maintaining a dune system rather than destroying it, you can see this along the Lothian coast, Dornoch, Lossiemouth etc too and just as it will do at Trump, which is actually one of the fast agrading areas in the UK.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by Bob_the_Job on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 4:11 pm

The main jist of what you're saying is sound, but ummm 300 out of 7,500 is 4%
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by McLaren on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 4:11 pm

Super

300/7500 is 4%.

The point is that you need very specific sea level changes, marine platform heights, raised beach heights, wind speed and types of vegetation to produce the type of land known as links land.  Due to these specific factors only 4% of Scotlands coastline is considered "links".

Given the short supply of links land maybe it would be better to stop building golf courses on it and try and fill the tee times on the courses already in existence.


If a supermarket was built in a rare or special type of land form then I would of course be troubled by that?

I don't understand what you are proposing as an alternative?  Are you suggesting we shouldn't care how we treat landscapes/natural features? I always suspected you had the touch of a nihilist about you and this conversation only seems to confirm those suspicions.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 4:18 pm

Fair enough, I got the % wrong. Hands up.

Mac, you seem to think that dune systems are constant. Dune systems are part of a succession process. They do not remain the same and are constantly maturing. They do not remain sand dunes at the specific point they exist forever.
TOC was built on a mature sand dune system, yet guess what, the process continued and there is still a working dune system there.

Do you not realise these are dynamic environments? THey react to change. If I colonise the area with something else , the system starts again on bare ground, it's why we have the ground for the Jubilee course, it's why there are dunes between the Jubilee and the coast now.

I'm not being a nihilist, I'm simply someone who understands the environment, have worked in it, have surveyed it and actually seen it in action. You demonstrably know nothing about it and seem to think if you build on it, then you destroy it and it's gone forever. It doesn't work that way.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by McLaren on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 5:02 pm

Super

The current links land in Scotland has formed over the last 6500 years as sea levels have fallen. I am sure at each site the dunes/sand area extends somewhat year to year but if we destroy all the links/dune systems with golf courses we do not have the initial conditions I outlined about for large scale links land. As you now accept only 4% of the coastline had the required conditions to produce links land. If we destroy the 300 miles of current links land it is not the case that links land will eventually materialize on the remaining 7200 miles of coastline.

For example the type of vegetation needed to slow the wind and deposit the sand in a way that forms links land is removed when a golf course is constructed.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Thu 29 Oct 2015, 6:51 pm

Mac, you are a buffoon. Sand dunes do not require changes in sea level in order to begin. For a start, post Ice Age, sea levels in the UK have actually been rising faster than the isostatic uplift of the land mass, yet dune systems developed over that time. The formation of dunes causes them to rise out of lower ground due to sediment deposition, they do not require changes in sea level.

I didn't say I accepted that only 4% of the coastline was suitable for links, I conceded I got the % wrong based on your stats, as you well know plenty "links" courses exist on non-links land (Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, The Castle etc).

Furthermore, the existing links courses in Britain and NI are perfect examples of exactly HOW sand dune environments ARE NOT destroyed. Look at St. Andrews, Muirfield, Lytham etc, the sand dunes have continued to grow OUTWARD to the sea, they are SURROUNDED by dune systems as they continue to develop AFTER construction, leaving the courses, built on mature links land to now be more inland than the point they were laid out.

Dune systems can begin in any number of conditions, sea level change is merely one of many.

What you don't seem to understand is that building courses on a dune system (they are built on the mature areas of a dune system anyway) has NO BEARING on the sections which are more exposed, vulnerable and which you see as a sand dune system,  they have lower organic matter, grass varieties, sand stability, and no one would build on those parts anyway as turf couldn't possibly take hold.

No course is built on the embryo, fore, or yellow dune areas of a dune system, and those are the parts that you are getting your knickers in a twist about.

Name ANY links course which is at the MHWS. You can't.

As usual, you have proven that you know nothing.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by McLaren on Fri 30 Oct 2015, 12:03 pm

Super


At no point did I claim the older links courses were built on the sand dunes themselves. Althoug trump has tried this. As far as I can tell courses are usually built on the flat area beyond the new and older dunes.

Also if a course was built at MHWS wouldn't be under water at some point and be on the beach? But again, no claim was made about building courses at MHWS.
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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by super_realist on Fri 30 Oct 2015, 12:28 pm

McLaren wrote:Super


At no point did I claim the older links courses were built on the sand dunes themselves. Althoug trump has tried this.  As far as I can tell courses are usually built on the flat area beyond the new and older dunes.

Also if a course was built at MHWS wouldn't be under water at some point and be on the beach? But again, no claim was made about building courses at MHWS.

So what's your problem then? Left alone, those mature areas ultimately change into different types of land such as heathland/forest, so what exactly is being ruined? A golf course is simply changing the land use of an evolving piece of land, land which is distinct and detached from the shoreface dune area processes. The majority (and most importantly the shifting/wind blown element) of the dune system remains and continues to develop as usual regardless of what lies inland.

Your inference from your synthetic outrage (as well as your direct quote) is that  dune systems are completely destroyed by golf courses, yet, you can't name a single course in the UK where an entire system has been destroyed or doesn't continue to exist alongside the golf course.

Also, you've again demonstrated your ignorance if you think Trump has built much on the actual sensitive part of the dunes. If you wouldn't get a nose bleed, perhaps you get hop on the bus on a day return and go and walk the course and see actually how little the impact of that course has on the system there.

If your argument is that you'd rather leave land untouched as some sort of wilderness, then fair enough, just as I expect you to have the same level of disdain when other natural formations are turned into parks or other leisure activities, but you could make that argument for every type of environment in Britain and yet you don't.

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by Shotrock on Fri 30 Oct 2015, 3:06 pm

If the success of the Bandon resort is any indication, I suspect this effort will do very well.

I have not played at Bandon. But I know a lot who have and, without exception, they rave about the experience. Wonderful golf, accommodations, food/drink, atmosphere. In fact, the golf club I belong to arranges for two trips a year to Bandon and it sells out. On my bucket list.

(The reason I have not played there yet is because I'm in a Rota with some friends from the UK and Ireland. They prefer to stay on the East Coast when they travel to the states.)

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Re: Mike Keiser (of Bandon fame) Possibly building Scottish Course in Dornoch.

Post by JAS on Sat 31 Oct 2015, 8:04 am

Bandon is quite high up my bucket list too. To have a taster of what it would be like over here would be great. Having another great course in that area would further boost tourism which can't be a bad thing, Gives the Inverness area (within an hour's drive), a real top class portfolio of courses.

You would rather it was just left as untouched links land Mac? So people could walk their dogs on it, take pictures of it from the beach and just generally marvel at the wildlife scratching around in the vast nothingness? Hell that would be so popular they should build an extra airport to get all the tourists in :-p

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