Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

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Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 31 Oct 2015, 10:27 am

First topic message reminder :

England Team:

Cook, Ali, Bell, root, Taylor, Stokes, Bairstow, Rashid, Broad, TBC, Anderson


Pakistan Team:

TBC




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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:17 pm

VTR wrote:Guildford will love the last 2 paragraphs of this article! And for what its worth I agree. I seem to remember Shaun Udal helping England draw a series in India - seasoned pros can have their uses.....

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2015-16/content/story/936675.html


Thanks, VTR. Very Happy

I particularly liked the comment that not every good ball will take a wicket in Tests but most bad balls will be dispatched.

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:25 pm

Some positives from the series for me;

Cook/Root - establishing themselves as truly world class players - never hurts to have two of them in the side!
Jimmy Taylor - yes only one game, but the his knock in the first innings shows the class and quality he has. I hope he gets the long run he's deserved for many years now
Wood - I was one calling for Finn to be in ahead of him (when both were fit) - obviously that selection was decided for the selectors, but I thought he bowled really well and looked threatening with the reverse swing. It's a shame he's made of glass
Broad/Anderson - Exceptional. Truly exceptional. Please don't break down you guys!

Oh and Imran Khan still not scoring an international run - the biggest positive from the series is this streak is still alive!!

Middle of the road;

Moeen - Failed as an opener (surprise!) - don't think he did too badly with the ball.
Stokes - bowled well before getting injured. Batting still flaky
Rashid - thought about putting him in the negatives, thought that might've been a bit harsh. Far too inconsistent to displace Moeen, but showed he could back him up if needed. Couple of good knocks with the bat. Exceptional spell in the 2nd innings of the 1st test shows the potential he has, but he needs work. Although he got thrown to the Lions and didn't completely crumble mentally (which is a knock on him)

Negatives;
Bell - I don't support the notion he should retire, but he needs to be dropped. Horribly out of form, lets see if he can regain form in the county summer before deciding to cut ties fully.
Bairstow/Buttler - Neither batted well, and both were ok with the gloves. To be honest it's getting to the point where I fully write off Bairstow, he's now come into the side twice in great form for his county and has flopped for England. Kid has the talent, but you gotta produce at some point. Jos is horribly out of nick, which might just save Jonny's place in SA - but if Buttler can get some decent scores in the ODI's and regain confidence I'd expect him back in. I also think Buttler is the better gloveman of the two.
Patel - I'd have chosen Plunkett as I said pre 3rd test, and Samit didn't really do anything to make me go "I was wrong". Such a shame #ansariforengland got injured, he'd have been much better for this role.

All in all, England did much much better than I expected. I thought a 3-0 whooping was on the cards, and really we competed for the majority of every match. Unfortunately the quality of Yasir and Wahab was just too much to overcome. 

I'd expect the side (injury permitting) to look like this for the 1st Test in SA

Cook
Hales
Bell
Root
Taylor
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson

Personally I hope Ballance comes in for Bell (I still think Ballance should've stayed in the side over Bell in the summer). But I don't see that happening this winter.
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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:30 pm

Olly wrote:

I'd expect the side (injury permitting) to look like this for the 1st Test in SA

Cook
Hales
Bell
Root
Taylor
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson

Personally I hope Ballance comes in for Bell (I still think Ballance should've stayed in the side over Bell in the summer). But I don't see that happening this winter.

Replace Bairstow for Buttler and I am sure that will be the side. Bayliss hinting that England need Bell's experience tells me he will keep his place V South Africa.
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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 6:07 pm

Haven't really got anything to add about the pluses and minuses of this tour.  England unlucky to lose the toss three times, and Stokes' injury could well have played a major role in the loss of the third match, considering we entered the match without Wood, considering also how effective Anderson and Broad were and how ineffective our spinners were - compared to Pakistan's.

The way is wide open for an up and coming England spinner and an opener to make a name for themselves. It's not obvious who they might be....!

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by kingraf on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 6:16 pm

To be fair, he was also the third leading English run scorer. I was one of those in favour of dropping KP because I thought his average of 33 over 12 months was too low, but on reflection, given what has come since KP, maybe 33 was just about adequate. Being the (third) best of a bad bunch should still see you keep your place when the rest are tossing up filth. Expecially if age is on your side and you're injury free (fairly certain Bell ticks both boxes)

MFC - Yes, of course players do improve/learn when they make the leap up to Test cricket. They have to, it's a jump, seemingly an enormous one given the travails of New England at scoring runs. That's not what I was saying. What I was saying is that you can't be picked (well, I suppose you can in a team like Australia 1995-2007, where they can afford a prodigious passenger who isn't quite scoring runs - Yes Michael Clarke) because you might have something, and your performances will improve. You need to be picked because you are absolutely the best option for a victory. To this point, I would like to point out I did say you can't pick three spinners for the sake of picking three spinners. These UAE pitches aren't "put it there or thereabouts and the pitch will do the rest" pitches. To be fair, Patel obviously worked in the first innings, but as a whole the three spinners plan didn't work, and more importantly, the two spinners ploy didn't look like it was one spinner short of being a brilliant play.
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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 6:29 pm

Olly - good post.

Not going to die in a ditch over any of your rankings but I would be inclined to tweak as below:

* Wood - harsh from me but, as you say, he's made of glass. That limits his reliability and availability. Down to top pupil in the Middle of the Road class.

* Moeen and Rashid - down to the Negatives. Effort from both but the end results weren't satisfactory. Some of the responsibility for Mo's demotion rests with the selectors getting him to open.

* Patel - possibly generous on my part but I would (just) elevate him to Middle of the Road. Agree he doesn't cry out to be picked but he had a reasonable Test. A good and valuable 40+ first dig and, but for a sitter dropped by Jimmy, would have had a couple of wickets in both innings.

I reckon you're on or near to the money with the XI for the 1st Test in SA. I don't know though how Finn is getting on - would be good to have him back in contention.

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by Gregers on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 8:57 pm

Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I do think that England need to go back to basics with the wicket keeping role. Get the best wicket keeper in and work on his batting later instead of plumping for a jack of all trades and master of none.

I'd argue Buttler is the best glove man personally.

Anyways I think I've seen enough of Jonny Bairstow for a little while. Just not upto it

Sorry Olly but have you seen Buttler keep? He's worse than Prior who wasn't a great gloveman (coming from a Sussex fan who loves Prior)

Best pure wickie in the country is Michael Bates, his batting is really not particularly good but glovewise he is superb (and no I would not pick Bates for england just using his glovework as a comparison for the best glove work). Buttler also doesn't have the ability for test batting in my opinion, ODI and T20 definitely but not Test. Bairstow is also poor with the gloves

Billings would be worth a shot in tests but not thrown in the deep end against South Africa, we have to stick with Bairstow/Buttler for that series at least

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 10:44 pm

Buttler is on the whole a good keeper, in particular standing back. Has good footwork and has excellent agility. Standing up he is developing, but he wouldn't have done too much of that in county cricket, due to the general nature of English cricket.

I think he'll be a fine fine glove man given time
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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by JDizzle on Sat 07 Nov 2015, 1:43 am

You can learn keeping. Just look at Prior, and Buttler where is now to where he was a few years ago. Hence why I'd always lean towards picking the best batsman, unless said player is pretty much Monty with the gloves - as there is always room to improve keeping quickly. And from what I have seen of both Bairstow and Buttler with the bat at international (not necessarily Tests) level, Buttler is far ahead in the potential stakes. And given there is no-one knocking the door down, I'd get him back in for SA.

Hales to open, the selectors thought he was the second best opener in the country and picked him on this tour (Moeen not an opener) and I can't think anything will have changed between now and then.

Bell has to bat three I think. Otherwise a 2-3-4-5-6-7 of Hales, Ballance/Vince, Root, Taylor, Stokes, Buttler... I don't think you want that lining up come first Test time.

Moeen still well ahead of Rashid for the lone spinner role. Interesting shout for Ansari from Bob Willis though. The thought being he offers more control with the ball than both whilst still being able to bat 8. Still Moeen for me though.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Finn get the nod over Wood either, if fit. Probably worth the gamble in a 5 man attack if he is fully fit as, cliche, he offers something different and is, cliche again, a wicket taker.

As an aside, Broad and Anderson now have 741 Test wickets between them. Got to be up there in the all-time English bowling partnerships, even on longevity alone?

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sat 07 Nov 2015, 11:00 am

Going to agree with JD and Olly on this one. It's far easier to be a good batsman and turn yourself into a good Test level keeper than the other way round. As a keeper myself, I wish it weren't so, but all the evidence points that way. See guys like Buttler, Prior, even Gerraint Jones became an accomplised keeper by the end of his England career (albeit his batting fell off a cliff). Contrast to superior keepers like Foster or Read, whose batting never was quite good enough for international level...

I love Michael Bates's wicket-keeping, he's got such wonderful hands and natural ability, but his batting isn't good enough for internationals, and never will be.

Also agree with Olly's support of Buttler's keeping. I did a small piece on him in the other "England in the UAE" thread. His keeping to pace bowlers is very good indeed, and he's pretty decent to the spinners. Bairstow of course missed a couple of half-chances of Hafeez in the last Test, which proved to be pretty important, though in general he kept pretty well, better than I expected TBH. Would still prefer Buttler long term though, just needs a score to get his batting confidence back, hopefully in the ODIs/T20s?

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 07 Nov 2015, 5:20 pm

I don't violently disagree but I'm not so much with JD as MfC. Perhaps not too surprising as I feel it's partly a generational thing. I don't quite go back a century when it was far from unknown for the keeper to bat at 11 in our county game but growing up in the '60s and '70s it was always a specialised position with the keeper often batting in the late middle order in England and abroad. A particular example from that era was Pakistan's Wasim Bari - an excellent, unfussy keeper who played in 80 odd Tests over 17 years but normally batted around number 9 and averaged less than 16.

I'm therefore always very keen to go into a Test with a proven established and reliable keeper. I guess the question then is - how established and reliable? For me, Buttler just about ticks those boxes now but Bairstow doesn't [MfC has previously emphasised Buttler's greater strengths]. That said and unlike many here, I wanted England to go back to Read when Prior finished. I thought Read would do a decent holding job (excuse possible pun) for a year or so whilst allowing Buttler or any other candidate to gain valuable experience at county level. Anyway, that didn't happen as we know and I would now be reluctant to cast Buttler aside with him certainly having improved with the gloves.

Alec Stewart touched on this subject when speaking at a Surrey members' forum back in the summer albeit he was answering a question about his own career. On his batting and keeping in Tests, Stewart was critical of the then selectors (he often is - those then and now!) referring to him being preferred to Russell behind the stumps as ''a panic measure'' to bring in an extra batsman rather than it being any sort of carefully thought out plan. Furthermore, Stewart acknowledged that Russell was the better keeper and that his own batting wasn't so good when he was also keeping. He summed it up as - ''By trying to solve a problem, we created another problem.'' I think those were wise words for his playing time and today.

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Re: Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

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