Lords votes to let 16yr olds vote in EU referendum !!!..

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Lords votes to let 16yr olds vote in EU referendum !!!.. Empty Lords votes to let 16yr olds vote in EU referendum !!!..

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:18 pm

Interesting that they can vote for a referendum as important as this and yet need to be 18 to vote in a general election.

I think it's a good thing. If you're old enough to join the army then you should be eligible to vote.

Plenty of thick types over 18 voting now..

Government looking to reverse this decision...Majority of 12 though could prove tricky.

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Post by wheelchair1991 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:28 pm

I think they should be able to vote always have

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:37 pm

Poor decision.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:39 pm

Too young in my opinion, some will have the maturity and intelligence to make such a decision but a vast number will be unable to comprehend what they're actually voting for.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:47 pm

Are you any different at 18 than you are at 16 ??...Not sure those 16-18 yrs when you're partying and discovering the back seat of cars and pieces of ass are really that maturing...

Not that I discovered too many back seats and that much ass...I cashed in too quickly.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:49 pm

*Duty mumbles something about being in favour of raising the voting age to 21, something about life experience and maturity; he realises this won't be too popular*

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Post by JDizzle on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:49 pm

Yeah, think it is too young. Certainly from my own experiences, there is a massive growing up process that goes on between 16 and 18 and people are far more ready to understand what they are voting for and how it will affect them at 18.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:58 pm

If you're old enough to fight for your Country..You're old enough to have a say in its future...in my opinion.

Labour, Libs and Greens are for it so I imagine in surveys there is a majority for staying in the EU....with this age group! !.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:00 pm

You can't fight on the frontline until you're 18, though.

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Post by JDizzle on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:03 pm

Meh, joining the Army is a decision you make for yourself and that only really affects yourself, whereas a vote like this has implications for everyone and I think 18 year olds have a better handle on this than at 16.

After some of the stuff that has gone on over the past week, I won't be losing any sleep either way over this though.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:06 pm

The army is willing to accept you though....and it's a big decision..

Front line is irrelevant Duty..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:08 pm

Of course it's relevant.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:18 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The army is willing to accept you though....and it's a big decision..

Front line is irrelevant Duty..

Yeah, but you're not old enough to fight for your country (in Britain, at least) until you're 18.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:22 pm

A lot of important work goes on behind the front line.  Irrelevant.

Besides kids these days grow up quicker in my opinion...They don't get the chance to be kids like my generation. .

Everything seems so darn serious..


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ....)

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Post by Guest on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:37 pm

It seems like gerrymandering.  16 to 17 years old should either be allowed to vote in the general election AND the referendum or neither.

Since 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to have sex and start families perhaps they should be allowed a vote in the general election AND the referendum.

But whatever the decision it should be consistent and not ad hoc.

I am thinking perhaps the age of being allowed to drive on public roads and motorways could be the determining factor. If you could trust a 17 year old to drive then you should be able to trust them to vote. Similarly there could be an argument for allowing 16 year olds to drive. We just need some level of consistency.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 11:34 pm

The idea might also be that a referendum like this will have lasting consequences, whatever the outcome, whereas a general election comes along every few years. Essentially the decision to stay or leave will affect current 16-17 year-olds for much longer than a GE result.

Perhaps not surprising to see Duty would like to see the minimal age raised to 21 given his views on the EU and the way the 16-20 bracket would likely (fairly massively) vote Wink

The question as to at what age we can trust people to make big judgements (like this one - albeit as an academic for me the choice is straightforward) is actually a tricky one.

18 is generally considered the age of legal responsibility, but not for everything. You can drive at a younger age, pretty sure sexual consent is younger (I was brought up in France, where it's 16, but not sure in the UK?), and as mentioned join the army, even if you're not sent to the front. I think you can also get married at a younger age?

Which to me narrows it down to a case of maturity and responsibility rather than a legal one. Ultimately people do mature with age, but at different rates. People probably mature more between ages 25-30 then 16-18 IMO anyway, but not always in a good way in any case. Ultimately I think the young benefit more from being given responsibility than being treated like children who don't understand the world. It could also get more young people involved in Politics, something which is surely desirable.

So ultimately, I'm in favour, and maybe even more generally of lowering the voting age to 16.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 11:46 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Perhaps not surprising to see Duty would like to see the minimal age raised to 21 given his views on the EU and the way the 16-20 bracket would likely (fairly massively) vote Wink.

And for my next trick, I believe only those who oppose the European Union should be given the right to vote. Wink

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Post by Guest on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 11:53 pm

Imagine if the 16 and 17 years olds get a right to vote - the managers for the yes or no campaigns will be chasing Justin Bieber and One Direction for their endorsements.  It could be a big money earner for both Mr Bieber and Mr Styles.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:10 am

JDizzle wrote:Yeah, think it is too young. Certainly from my own experiences, there is a massive growing up process that goes on between 16 and 18 and people are far more ready to understand what they are voting for and how it will affect them at 18.

Agree with this post. Think there's a massive difference in maturity, intelligence, common sense and general 'worldliness' at 18 as opposed to 16.

Saying 'well you can join the army' or 'well you can have a family/drive a car' are straw man arguments. You can join the army - but is that 16 year old army cadet the same person and with the same decision making capability as the when he/she turns 18? Is the young guy/girl that starts a family (note the this isn't often the case a genuine decision) at 16 going to make the same decisions & choices when they're 18 with 2 years parenting experience?

You can drive a car at 17, but not many pass that young, and those that do face sky high insurance premiums because they are not considered a safe mature pair of hands - so why would those hands suddenly be safe enough to make a decision that could potentially affect the whole country and last for decades?

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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:32 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote: ... Saying 'well you can join the army' or 'well you can have a family/drive a car' are straw man arguments.  ...
If those are straw man arguments isn't the argument for 18 also a straw man argument (compared to say 19 or 20 or 21 age thresholds)?  You still have to decide on thresholds.  So we have a threshold for sex, driving a motorised vehicle on public roads, voting at a general election and now a threshold set by the House of Lords for the EU referendum.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 3:39 pm

Nore Staat wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote: ... Saying 'well you can join the army' or 'well you can have a family/drive a car' are straw man arguments.  ...
If those are straw man arguments isn't the argument for 18 also a straw man argument (compared to say 19 or 20 or 21 age thresholds)?  You still have to decide on thresholds.  So we have a threshold for sex, driving a motorised vehicle on public roads, voting at a general election and now a threshold set by the House of Lords for the EU referendum.

Well The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that 18 is the legal age of becoming an adult and is adopted by most major countries across the world. So no, I don't think 18 is exactly arbitrary nor can I see how it is a strawman.

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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 4:12 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote: ... Saying 'well you can join the army' or 'well you can have a family/drive a car' are straw man arguments.  ...
If those are straw man arguments isn't the argument for 18 also a straw man argument (compared to say 19 or 20 or 21 age thresholds)?  You still have to decide on thresholds.  So we have a threshold for sex, driving a motorised vehicle on public roads, voting at a general election and now a threshold set by the House of Lords for the EU referendum.

Well The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that 18 is the legal age of becoming an adult and is adopted by most major countries across the world.  So no, I don't think 18 is exactly arbitrary nor can I see how it is a strawman.
There is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. So by the UN Convention 16 and 17 year olds are legally children and 18 year olds are legally adults? If that is the case then in the UK children are having sex and driving on the motorways.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 5:07 pm

We've just had 16 yr olds voting on Scottish independence ....So it's a pretty good straw man argument..

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 5:15 pm

I'm not quite sure I agree that 16 year olds should be allowed to join the army.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 5:25 pm

Nore Staat wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote: ... Saying 'well you can join the army' or 'well you can have a family/drive a car' are straw man arguments.  ...
If those are straw man arguments isn't the argument for 18 also a straw man argument (compared to say 19 or 20 or 21 age thresholds)?  You still have to decide on thresholds.  So we have a threshold for sex, driving a motorised vehicle on public roads, voting at a general election and now a threshold set by the House of Lords for the EU referendum.

Well The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that 18 is the legal age of becoming an adult and is adopted by most major countries across the world.  So no, I don't think 18 is exactly arbitrary nor can I see how it is a strawman.
There is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority.  So by the UN Convention 16 and 17 year olds are legally children and 18 year olds are legally adults?  If that is the case then in the UK children are having sex and driving on the motorways.

So I guess the question becomes, therefore, are we happy for non-adults to vote in General Elections in the same we are for sexual consent and driving?

And I personally would say no. Being emotionally mature enough to have sex (a decision affecting soley oneself on one occassion) is very different to having the maturity to make a balanced reasoned decision that could affect 60 million people for 5 years.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 5:34 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I'm not quite sure I agree that 16 year olds should be allowed to join the army.

Not sure I do but If they are deemed old enough to do that....They should be allowed to vote..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 11:37 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I'm not quite sure I agree that 16 year olds should be allowed to join the army.

They aren't allowed to fight though, are they? Basically administrative functions and support work. About as risky as a paper round on a council estate.

Can see the argument that if you fight for your country you should be able to vote for it. But they don't.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 2:36 pm

Let us stop this front line garbage...

If you're old enough to help fight for your Country....

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Post by Guest on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:18 pm

If you're old enough to work full time and pay taxes ... If you're old enough to have sex and mother and father children ... If you're old enough to drive a vehicle at 30 mph and 40 mph alongside pavements containing adults and children, and drive at 70 mph on motorways containing other adults and children, and have adults and children as passengers ... then ...

In terms of biology when is a human being adult? Are humans the only creature to be biologically an adult but classed socially as a child? Discuss.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:40 pm

Adulthood is determined as a matter of law. A matter in which the UK has adopted the UN definition of 18.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:13 pm

They were old enough to help decide the Scottish independence question..

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:19 am

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-mps-reject-house-lords-proposal-allow-voting-rights-16-year-olds-1532450

Rejected by the democratic chamber.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:22 am

No rejected by people with an interest in keeping them out..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:03 am

Duty281 wrote:http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-mps-reject-house-lords-proposal-allow-voting-rights-16-year-olds-1532450

Rejected by the democratic chamber.

Good democracy there.

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