England squad for tour of South Africa

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England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:28 am

So what do we all make of that?

Bell out, Ballance/Compton in the main headlines in the batting department.

Woakes, Jordan and Footitt in, Plunkett out, Wood/Finn injured.

Samit ahead of Rashid.

Personally not sure what Plunkett ever did wrong bar get injured against India last year, bizarre that he is out. Samit ahead of Rashid also is puzzling.

Otherwise I think all the right moves have been made, happy Ballance is back in and hopefully he gets a shot
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by seanmichaels on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:33 am

Crackers in the bowling department.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by alfie on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:50 am

Ha - I commented on the UAE thread...

But : while I'm not surprised Bell is out I think a recall for Ballance may be a bit early. Don't like his chances at three against Steyn....

Of course Compton may be pencilled in for three. They do have a few batting options ; if not perhaps any that look overly solid.

Bowling though : I am nearly as happy to see Woakes in as Olly (though he really needs to perform if he gets a run) ; but why no Plunkett ? Bit of a lack of real pace in that group , with Wood and Finn ruled out. Jordan ???
Footitt fair enough - he's been on the fringes. Time to have a proper look at him.

They have explained Patel is in as preferred cover , don't want to take Rashid out to travel around carrying drinks...Well , OK - but not sure I agree with that. Certainly didn't think he was going to oust Moeen as number one spin option ; but might have been handy to have up their sleeve.

Cook
Hales
Compton
Root
Taylor
Stokes
Bairstow/Buttler
Moeen
Broad
Anderson
Footit/Woakes ?

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by VTR on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:50 am

Pretty happy with that, probably would have had Plunkett for Jordan, but I don't see either of them ever running through a side so not too fussed there.

Don't mind Samit ahead of Rashid either. The second spinner is very unlikely to play so its better that Rashid goes off and plays some cricket instead

Bell is deservedly dropped, the man who goes missing too often, especially compared to Ballance who had two bad matches and was dropped - Bell has had two bad years at least!

I think most people on here have been calling for Compton for a while

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 11:25 am

I think the squad selection is fair enough, although our back up to Anderson and Broad may be a bit thin.  I could see Footitt playing ahead of Jordan, but it could also be a big opportunity for Woakes.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 11:36 am

The winter of Woakes is upon us folks - and it's gonna be glorious
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by GSC on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 11:55 am

Woakes never struck me as test standard to be honest, closer to the bits and pieces cricketers England have picked before than a genuine bowling option. Suspect he's in as cover for Stokes.

Compton likely insurance for Hales and Ballance. Bell had to go but an untested/flimsy top 3.

Team for the first test for me

Cook
Hales
Ballance
Root
Taylor
Stokes
Bairstow
Moeen
Broad
Jordan
Anderson

Its a fairly risky side, but seems quite a risky squad.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by sirfredperry on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:18 pm

Bell can have few complaints and I agree that Ballance deserves another chance. Not sure if Compton is quite Test class and it shows the dearth of top openers that he has been recalled.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 2:09 pm

I'm fairly comfortable and understanding of what the selectors have done.

Looks like Hales, Compton and Ballance will be fighting it out for two batting places. As Sir Fred says, Bell can have few complaints. However, I did like Bell's tweet about being determined to win back his place. I'm not sure he will but I much prefer players to go out like that than posing for selfies a la Johnson whilst play is in progress.

Impossible to properly judge from this distance but Plunkett seems to have had a raw deal. In the Test and ODI squads in the UAE without getting a game and now discarded for this tour. I'm no fan and am one of the few here who prefers Jordan but it seems odd.

At risk of encouraging Olly further Wink , I wouldn't be surprised to see Woakes get an early opportunity in SA. I've said before that his methodical tidy bowling might be the ying to Stokes' more aggressive wicket taking and expensive yang. I feel that if Woakes is to play Test cricket, he'll be more of a fourth seamer than a third; this could be that chance.

I suspect most (although not Alfie?) would agree that Rashid isn't suited to SA. He would still be a long way off my Test team anywhere but that doesn't belong here. No problem with Patel being included - he did reasonably in his one Test in the UAE. Don't know what the score is with Ansari and his fitness though - hope the selectors are still talking to him.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 2:52 pm

Plunkett has enough pace to worry county batsmen - but does little eles with the ball and test batsmen are too classy for him to have any sustained success.

Problem is Woakes is no better than a 4th seamer, and Jordan is a very average bowler. Woakes as cover for Stokes makes sense. Plunkett dropped I understand and agree with, but I have to start doubting my eyes as the selection of Jordan baffles me. He has shown bugger all quality so far, and at his age is unlikely to improve. Would rather have seen what either Curran can do instead.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Stella on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 3:01 pm

Footit will hopefully play. As for the squad. Jordan and Samit should count themselves lucky to be going, even if they are there for cover, especially Samit. Hales looks like he may join Cook as opener, with Ballance and Compton battling out for the all important first drop.

Who will keep? They're both ok keeper, with Buttler being slightly ahead, but Bairstow is imo a better batsman. Tight call.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 4:52 pm

At last! Ian Bell is dropped....... Most deservedly so......
And good to see the selectors at last giving up and ending their stubborn stupidity and recalling Nick Compton. As James Taylor is already there in the squad, think the next best batting replacement is Ballance. So fair enough. As for Rashid, there is a solid explanation, I like the fact that they were open about it and made things clear on that front, as such picking Patel is OK, he's not going to play, and Rashid didn't do enough to claim the led spinner role for himself, not that Ali is miles better.......
With Finn and Wood not available, OK in the seam bowling department, but can't understand why they went for Jordan over Plunkett. Between the 2, I rate the latter higher.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by wisden on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 4:53 pm

My view on the squad

Obvious certanities who were gonna be there: Cook,Anderson,Broad,Root,Stokes

Maybe's : Moeen,Bairstow, Buttler. Hales, Jordan, Footitt

Lucky to be there: Ballance, Woakes, Compton, Patel

For me it should be Cook and Hales who will open.. However i doubt they would have taken Compton just to sit on the sidelines, i think he will play and open with Cook, with Root moved up to 3, and Ballance sitting at 4.. which for me again is a strange move, don't see why Ballance has been re-called, didn't score stacks of runs at the back end of the season for Yorkshire, and still not convinced by his front foot movement (or lack of it, so to speak) Taylor should cement that middle order spot, and about time too - class act... Always happier to see Stokes back from injury, IMO a must at 6, balances side well, and plays genuine pace well, so should do well against SA... for me Buttler takes the gloves back...don't have any faith in Bairstow with the bat or gloves..too many technical flaws with the bat, and is a poor keeper... Patel being in the squad baffles me..enough said. Moeen at 8, no suprise there, did well batting at 8, can't see him going well with the ball...AB etc, will go after him.... Broad, Anderson, and Jordan to start series with the ball, but can see Footitt coming in if Jordan struggles with his radar..

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 4:56 pm

Not sure why people think Hales won't play - Whittaker was asked who would open and said Hales has first opportunity and is next in line.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by wisden on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 4:57 pm

For me Hales should open and deserves his oppo..but see earlier post...seems strange that Compton would be taken to sit on the bench...has a solid technique, and should do well on these tracks..

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by sirfredperry on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 5:35 pm

Jordan's batting potential and excellent slip catching has probably got him the nod more than his bowling which aint much to write home about. Some will point to Ballance's technique but temperament is sometimes under-rated. Bell, for example, has wonderful technique, but is staying at home. Trescothick, they said, had poor foot movement. Didn't seem to do him much harm.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 6:18 pm

wisden wrote:For me Hales should open and deserves his oppo..but see earlier post...seems strange that Compton would be taken to sit on the bench...has a solid technique, and should do well on these tracks..

He's competing with Ballance for the #3 slot. Root is 4, Taylor 5, Stokes 6 and one of Buttler/Bairstow is 7
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by JDizzle on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 7:08 pm

Hales absolutely has to play. A top three of Cook, Compton and Ballance would be too slow. I know 'you can't score runs from the pavilion', but we've seen before from this England side how quickly things can unravel if we are scoring at a snails pace. Make the collapse inevitable.

I'd have Ballance at 3 too. Really not convinced by Compton, his last Test Match innings was that bad. And I'm not even sure he's a better option than Bell to be honest. Even the Bell averaging 30/35 in the last two years. Is Compton better than that level? Not convinced. And if neither are starting, I'd rather have Bell around the team as back up.

Root and Taylor, nailed on 4 and 5.

Stokes, if fit is your 6.

Buttler is just better than Bairstow for me. If he carries on his from his last knock, I'd have no hesitation giving him the gloves back. Really unconvinced by Jonny, and he's hardly smashed the door down.

Moeen, Broad and Jimmy - yep. 3rd seamer... I agree with Tiger that Plunkett really isn't much at Int level. He isn't quick enough and doesn't have the skiddy awkwardness and swing that Wood has. Woakes is a 4th seamer at best, swinging it from the hand isn't good enough at test level. Take a punt on Footit - Stokes bowled with a lot more control in the UAE so I'd take a punt on the WC!

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by jimbohammers on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 8:49 pm

Some surprises in the squad. Not convinced by Compton. Not sure what Ballance has done to earn a recall. Rashid rightly left out, shouldn't spin in South Africa and he's hardly taken his chance in recent games to be selected. Confused by Jordan's inclusion over Plunkett. Just don't know what he adds.






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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by alfie on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:26 am

Don't think there is any doubt Hales will start - as JD says , Cook-Compton-Ballance would be just too passive. How he'll do is another matter...
Do not much like a suggestion above that Root move to three : he is doing so well where he is I'd be reluctant to move him at this stage. Later , if and when a solid opening pair and a reliable five are locked in , maybe. But it all looks a bit fragile at present , so let us not mess with the strong points.
(By the way although I am not shocked at Bell's omission , I am neither rejoicing at his departure nor assuming he is now done. I think he probably needs this clean break to (a) Settle in his own mind if he really has the desire to get back into the team and start performing like the player we know he can be - or used to be , if you prefer. And (b) If so , get some form and confidence back away from the limelight.
No guarantee of either . Some of his recent comments suggest ambivalence - fatal to a sportsman at elite level ; and it may just be that his reflexes have slipped. But at least this will force him to face the end or show that he can delay it. And force England to address life without him in the meantime and see if he is replaceable in the short term)

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by alfie on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:27 am

I am less critical of Plunkett than some. Don't think he is a superstar ; but he can generate decent pace and lift - I'd have thought he might be useful in SA , and seems unlucky to be passed over for Jordan. But maybe not a lot in it. I do hope Footitt gets a try - a fast left arm bowler would be handy , if good enough. Woakes (sorry Olly) is a reasonable back up ; but I think he has a bit to prove at Test level yet !
As for Rashid ( and I'm far from a big fan ) : not sure why people are saying wrist spinners can't be effective in SA - a certain Mr Warne did rather well there Smile
Sure he is hardly comparable - and unlikely to oust Moeen. And Patel is a "safer" backup option. But , just suppose , England's batting stood up well , and the series was level with one to play ... and they wanted a "wild card" to try and force a win...

OK , unlikely I guess - and you can see why they don't want him as permanent drink waiter. But frankly , if Moeen were injured I'd as soon settle for Root to bowl the spin than Patel ; so I'm not sure it would have hurt to keep Rashid in the "bubble".
Never mind. Generally a fair enough selection , I think. Let us hope they all stay fit.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by KP_fan on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 7:46 am

Finally, Eventually and in the End...they didn't cut their nose to spite their face...
brought back Compton and Ballance Shocked OK


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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 10:20 am

probably a coupleof years late on Compton but glad the selectors have finaly seen sense and not put everything on Hales who is still at a point of establishing himself as an ODI opener let alone a test one. The Ali experiment was another waste in the same proportion of Trott... the only saving grace of that was it did allow a deeper bowling line up. But theres no way you can risk a part timer in SA, the top 3 really needed an injection.
Dropping Bell..many would argue they have missed the boat on that, KP is pooing feathers over it. Apparently England need his experience and Taylor is too short.

I still find it a little odd that England have Willey pegged as a mainstay of the ODI side, but he cant even make the test tour side when 2 other guys are injured. Instead theres a bunch of guys who have failed previously or Footit who maybe "deserves a go" but is Willey really so much of a limited over specialist? I supose theres the argument that they dont want to over flog individuals and are trying to devleop that a test/limited overs split for players but I cant help feeling its an odd call.

Rashid being left out ...well I gues that shows just how much the selectors still hate him. Especially for fricking Patel (how is he still only 30?). Holding spinner? Hmm. The draing choice wouldve been to drop Ali and go with their best wicket taking spin option if they were that desperate to have a "safe" second choice in the squad. That said it wouldve been harsh on Ali who arguably has suffered more through being asked to bat in a role he never should have been given.

All in though with Ballance coming back in as well ( what exactly has he done to deserve the recall if he deserved dropping in the first place?) it does smack of shuffling deck chairs, a lack of joined up thinking and an admitance of previous errors (not a bad thing in itself).

Its a tough gig for Compton and Balance to come back in the top 3 against "the best side in the world" on their home turf, especially given they got dropped following facing "the worlds best seam attack" on their home turf. Quality pace bowling will find anyone out.


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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by VTR on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 10:53 am

I think people are getting in a bit of a muddle over the whole Rashid thing - he is not in the squad so he can spend the winter playing competitive cricket. That has got to be good for him surely?

If Moeen was to get injured it doesn't automatically mean Patel plays, Rashid could be called in as a replacement

Makes a lot of sense to me

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by VTR on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 11:05 am

Everything you need to know about KPs comments regarding Bell in the following sentence from cricinfo:

".......and he [KP] is a director of the management company that looks after Bell's interests"

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 11:52 am

To be honest I'd have selected Bell. Need his experience. Plus like it or not he is still by some way your third best bat
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by GSC on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 12:02 pm

I wouldn't have had a problem with taking Bell, would've had a problem with him playing.

Just hope Hales is allowed to play his natural game atop the order. England need to be patient with him.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Stella on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 12:25 pm

kingraf wrote:To be honest I'd have selected Bell. Need his experience. Plus like it or not he is still by some way your third best bat

At his best he is, but he hasn't been for a while.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 2:40 pm

He was in the Pakistan tour and the Ashes and the Windies tour
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Stella on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:32 pm

kingraf wrote:He was in the Pakistan tour and the Ashes and the Windies tour

He was nowhere near his best.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 2:26 pm

Stella wrote:
kingraf wrote:He was in the Pakistan tour and the Ashes and the Windies tour

He was nowhere near his best.

i suspect he was suggesting that Bell was Englands 3rd best batsman in those series. As he was probably 3rd highest run scorer in all 3 their may be a valid point.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Stella on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 3:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Stella wrote:
kingraf wrote:He was in the Pakistan tour and the Ashes and the Windies tour

He was nowhere near his best.

i suspect he was suggesting that Bell was Englands 3rd best batsman in those series. As he was probably 3rd highest run scorer in all 3 their may be a valid point.

I can see Kingraf's point but Bell is a middle order player, who the selectors obviously feel is not to up to batting in the top three, wanting a Compton or Ballance instead, therefore Bell is up against Taylor and Root, making his place in the squad redundant. He may feel a little aggrieved but the truth is, he's struggled to score runs of late.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 26 Nov 2015, 3:18 pm

For too long now Bell has been surviving on one big innings a series and averaging 25 over the last year or two. It just isn't good enough and being well into his 30s now it is an ideal time to look at other options. I think even his most ardent fans would agree that he has been given every chance (and more) to shake off this poor run of form so him being axed is no travesty of justice certainly.

The timing of him being axed did surprise me though as Bayliss did come out saying Bell still had a part to play in the side (or words to that effect) following the end of the UAE Test tour. His words made me feel sure Bell would be going to South Africa but that has proven not to be the case.

As for the other call-ups and omissions then I am slightly surprised Rashid has been axed in favour of Patel. Surely, if Rashid is No.2 spinner after Ali then best place for him is in the squad where spin experts can work with him to iron out his problem of one long hop delivery an over. I am a little surprised Ballance has been recalled so soon if I am being honest but good to see Compton get another chance and Footitt perhaps being blooded for the future. Although Jordan's inclusion is a little unimaginative for me.
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:23 am

As expected Finn added to squad.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by sirfredperry on Mon 14 Dec 2015, 6:14 pm

Finn's addition to the squad is good news. He has real pace and is a wicket taker. Yes, he can be expensive at times. But his Test average is lower than either Anderson's or Broad's (admittedly from far fewer Tests).
You can see him playing a part at some stage of the series.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by alfie on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 4:25 am

Rather a lot of quick bowlers sitting around and carrying drinks - but yes I am glad to see Finn added. He may struggle to feature , given the lack of non-Test match practice available (this abandonment of serious match practice for touring sides - everywhere - really needs addressing ) ; but he provides an option with a bit of difference. Imagine he will certainly be in action in the limited over stuff , at least.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 8:29 am

Well, five overs into the first (of two) three day warm up games.

13 men a side for this one with Hales getting first dibs to open, Stokes fit to play, Bairstow wearing the keeper gloves and Woakes and Foottitt having first chance to seal the 3rd seamer spot.


With cook and Hales already out, Compton and Root get their chance to practice "digging us out of a hole".

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 12:46 pm

Compton, Taylor and Stokes having a good workout. 235 - 4 at tea.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 12:48 pm

Jimmy Taylor fast becoming my fave England player
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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 1:13 pm

Just checked the odds for the upcoming test series - England 3/1 to win. Laugh

How much money does one want to print this time? England should have this series nailed as a comfortable victory.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by msp83 on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 3:19 pm

Will Compton's and Hales' performance have any impact on the test selection? Hales doesn't look test class to me. Compton for sure isn't a candidate for the greatest England opener ever, but think Cook can do a lot worse than picking Compton over Hales for that first test to partner him at the top.
And as for the squad, think now that Finn's back, and the competitions are all inexperienced or untested or rather unsuitable for South African conditions, he has to be the 3rd seamer....... Particularly as Wood isn't there.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 3:47 pm

Don't think Finn is expected to come into consideration for the first Test. Looking at today, looks like they currently favour Woakes. Interesting that they've given Bairstow first go ahead of Buttler, does that suggest they see him as first choice at the moment? Also seems like they fancy Compton for the number three position at the moment, with Ballance as back-up.

Good knocks from Stokes and Taylor today, and Compton also doing his chances no harm. England will hope Hales delivers second time around.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 3:51 pm

Also, a teaser. Root today scored all of his runs (28) in boundaries. What's the highest score - say in Tests or ODIs, take your pick - where that has occurred?

I have no idea BTW...

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by VTR on Tue 15 Dec 2015, 4:14 pm

Bairstow was confirmed by Bayliss as WK for the First Test before this match. Not so sure on Hales, cricinfo say he is a definite starter but I have not seen any interviews that confirm it

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 11:35 am

Sadly it seems that the quality of players in the SA Inv XI are not up to much.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 12:09 pm

alfie wrote:Rather a lot of quick bowlers sitting around and carrying drinks  - but yes I am glad to see Finn added.  He may struggle to feature , given the lack of non-Test match practice available (this abandonment of serious match practice for touring sides - everywhere - really needs addressing ) ; but he provides an option with a bit of difference.   Imagine he will certainly be in action in the limited over stuff , at least.

Hi Alfie et al - yep, that was what really struck me about Finn's call up. I'm not against him or his inclusion per se but it does give a lopsided look to the squad with the four of him, Woakes, Jordan and Footitt appearing to be competing for just one place. That's too many and not right.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 12:56 pm

It is really just 3 fighting for one spot for the first test.

After that, fitness permitting, Finn will be in.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 2:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:It is really just 3 fighting for one spot for the first test.

After that, fitness permitting, Finn will be in.

Tiger - go along with your first sentence.

However, if the seamer who comes in for the first Test (let's say Woakes to keep Olly happy! Very Happy ) does reasonably well or even better, Finn will be likely to be kicking his heels for longer still. Whichever way you look at it, it's hard to see - in this example, anyway - Jordan and Footitt getting much game time. That we have too many on the sidelines was essentially my point before.

I suppose the position could change with injuries but that shouldn't be the basis of squad selection.

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by wisden on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 5:42 pm

Finn should arguably have been left at home..im not sure he will be 100% fit to be honest...also if im honest, would like to see Footitt get a go in this series..

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

Post by VTR on Thu 17 Dec 2015, 9:53 am

Good to see England are practicing their batting collapses today - its a key part of their Test match strategy so its nice to hone it in the warm up games

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Re: England squad for tour of South Africa

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