The great Tax credit joke !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:18 am

Brought in by a Business toadying Blair so that the taxpayers supplement wages so that big business gets away withour paying them a living wage...

Then attempted to be taken away by spoon fed types with no extra cost to big business...

Gotta laugh haven't you..

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Post by Steffan on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:02 am

Tax credits are good for me. My plan is to never earn more that 19K a year so that way I can claim some tax back while also not paying back any student fees. My big fat inheritance will look after me as a pensioner so I have no need to save. First holiday of 2016 starts in January 1st. Berlin baby Cool

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:23 pm

Anyone shocked that Stephanie plans to stay a burden to the state?

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:47 pm

It's a pretty disgraceful attitude, to be honest.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:53 pm

Tax credit reform is still needed, but only alongside employer NI increases (in additional to the substantial recent improvement in NLW).

Tax payers shouldn't be subsidising cheap labour to that degree, but equally, like all benefits, they're too generous and open to abuse. Especially if in any way geared to propensity to procreate.

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Post by BamBam on Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:45 pm

I'm in favour of tax credits remaining in place, but agree that some sort of reform is needed.

However, attitudes like the poster above are unfortunately unsurprising, and I only wish there was away to weed out leeches who act in this manner

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Post by VTR on Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:54 pm

BamBam wrote:
However, attitudes like the poster above are unfortunately unsurprising, and I only wish there was away to weed out leeches who act in this manner

I wouldn't worry about them - if they want to go to Uni to then sit in a menial 19k a year job with their brain rotting for 30+ years they are welcome to it. There won't be many like that, as most would have the gall to realise they could have the inheritance plus more money each year by showing some ambition

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:10 pm

Aye but feckers like him will cry about evil tories when people like him are the problem.

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:11 am

Scottrf wrote:Anyone shocked that Stephanie plans to stay a burden to the state?
It's Steffan thumbsup

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:13 am

VTR wrote:if they want to go to Uni to then sit in a menial 19k a year job
19K a year is a good wage in South Wales so it's hardly classed as 'menial'. Many graduates I know would love to earn that much

I assume you live in a wealthy part of England with that type of snobbery about wages?

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:15 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Aye but feckers like him will cry about evil tories when people like him are the problem.
I hardly ever moan about Tories. If anything I slate Labour more than any other party

Quick to judge you lot are...

And calling me a 'fecker' over the internet doesn't make you hard or clever by the way

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:29 am

This is for Mr 'I wouldn't get out of bed for less than 40K a year' VTR

https://statswales.wales.gov.uk/Catalogue/Business-Economy-and-Labour-Market/People-and-Work/Earnings/averageweeklyearnings-by-ukcountryenglishregion-year

Learn some basic economics and think before you type next time thumbsup

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:40 am

Yeah, before you comment on his sponging, learn to sponge properly yourself.

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:44 am

Pr4wn wrote:Yeah, before you comment on his sponging, learn to sponge properly yourself.
It's not my fault the South Wales job industry is low paid compared to the rest of the UK. Plus I've got a humanities degree and we are hardly the most sort after of employees (although I do have experience working in the finance industry as well)

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:48 am

Still a bad attitude to have though Steffan, you lent the money, you should be paying it back. It is them attitudes on why the system needs reforming (as well as the fees for student which are totally over the top now.)

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:55 am

Derbymanc wrote:Still a bad attitude to have though Steffan, you lent the money, you should be paying it back
I would if I could get a job that hits the 20K threshold. Hardly any jobs in Wales at the moment nevermind well paid jobs. I know many graduates with degrees much more 'meaningful' than mine currently working in call centres or low paid office jobs. Just the way things are. People didn't choose it to be this way

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:58 am

Derbymanc wrote:Still a bad attitude to have though Steffan, you lent the money, you should be paying it back. It is them attitudes on why the system needs reforming (as well as the fees for student which are totally over the top now.)

People get hurt when things get reformed by politicians that have been spoilt all their lives and have no clue how blue collar workers struggle..

I grew up in a house where money was in short supply......

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:17 am

Same here Truss, doesn't mean we shouldn't have reform though and if your going to 'reward' people then surely it should be those working the hardest.

Fair Do's Steffan, i'm assuming it was a flippant remark by yourself to be fair to you but emotions do tend to run high when it comes to benefits and such and to be totally honest, if you can play the sytem then it's going to get played, it's up to the higher ups to close the loopholes etc but then that would mean closing a lot of them.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:23 am

If I thought they'd do it properly I'd agree.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:24 am

Steffan wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Yeah, before you comment on his sponging, learn to sponge properly yourself.
It's not my fault the South Wales job industry is low paid compared to the rest of the UK. Plus I've got a humanities degree and we are hardly the most sort after of employees (although I do have experience working in the finance industry as well)

Which is entirely your fault.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:25 am

Derbymanc wrote:Still a bad attitude to have though Steffan, you lent the money, you should be paying it back. It is them attitudes on why the system needs reforming (as well as the fees for student which are totally over the top now.)

Quite an oxymoronic point.

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:33 am

Derbymanc wrote:Fair Do's Steffan, i'm assuming it was a flippant remark by yourself to be fair to you but emotions do tend to run high when it comes to benefits and such and to be totally honest, if you can play the sytem then it's going to get played
My comment was indeed flippant and I like how the way the the little fishies swam into the net laughing

It is true though that the government has put education up at a price where people living in area were work is hard to find or the pay is not that high so it's not as easy to walk into a high paid job and start paying back those fees like a good citizen should do

Due to personal circumstances many of us are not in the position to just drop everything to head off to somewhere like London and why should people be excepted to leave the region they call home anyway

We often accuse the politicians of having no idea about the blue collar worker but judging by some of the comments and attitudes on here it clearly isn't limited to politics when judgments are made over things like low pay and lack of ambition

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Post by VTR on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:34 am

Dear Steffan:

a) Can you please find the sentence where I wrote I wouldn't get out of bed for less than 40k

b) I am not berating graduates on 19k, I started on less than that. But you have stated that you intend to sit on that wage for your entire career, I think its fair to say most graduates would be disappointed with that

c) You are quoting average wage stats - can you find me the same figures for graduates not all workers

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:43 am

I dare say £19k in South Wales is quite a bit better than the £23k in Central London I started on a few years ago...

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:44 am

Explain Toppy?

You should have to pay back the money you lent but it doesn't stop the fee's being exorbirant (bit like pay day loan firms)

We're in agreement Truss (again) as I don't think we can trust any government at the moment to do it correctly. bunch of .............................

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Post by Steffan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:52 am

19K in South Wales is not a bad wage to live on. I guess it all comes down to what type of lifestyle you want to live but 19K will certainly pay rent/mortgage and bills plus allow you to have your flatscreen TV and a holidays abroad etc. Other than eating out, travelling and vinyl records I don't really want for much so I could live a decent life no problem on it

As for ambition...I wouldn't really class myself as ambitious but that being said having applied for and got two promotions in my last job I would hardly class myself as your typical apathetic worker. While a bit of cash on the hip is always a good thing I still value a good health, love and social life above "working my way to the top"

We are all different in what we want out of life so there is no blueprint but to quote 'Wall Street':

Bud Fox: What I see is a jealous old machinist who can't stand the fact that his son has become more successful than he has!

Carl Fox: What you see is a guy who never measured a man's success by the size of his WALLET!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:01 am

Derbymanc wrote:Explain Toppy?

You should have to pay back the money you lent but it doesn't stop the fee's being exorbirant (bit like pay day loan firms)

We're in agreement Truss (again) as I don't think we can trust any government at the moment to do it correctly. bunch of .............................

Saying people should pay back what they borrowed to fund their further education but then saying that everyone else should actually pay it for them (i.e. tax payer heavily subsidising any person to do any degree without restriction to the tune of 10's of thousands of pounds per grad per year).

There logic and sense to tax payer subsidising of the best & brightest to studied good worthwhile degrees, especially from a social mobility point of view, there is no sense or logic in hard working tax payers (that might well have no tertiarty education themselves) have money taken from their families dinner tables in order to subsidise some no-hoping waste of space to spend 3 years getting drunk at a former polytechnic for a worthless dougie.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:06 am

Steffan wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Fair Do's Steffan, i'm assuming it was a flippant remark by yourself to be fair to you but emotions do tend to run high when it comes to benefits and such and to be totally honest, if you can play the sytem then it's going to get played
My comment was indeed flippant and I like how the way the the little fishies swam into the net laughing

It is true though that the government has put education up at a price where people living in area were work is hard to find or the pay is not that high so it's not as easy to walk into a high paid job and start paying back those fees like a good citizen should do

Due to personal circumstances many of us are not in the position to just drop everything to head off to somewhere like London and why should people be excepted to leave the region they call home anyway

We often accuse the politicians of having no idea about the blue collar worker but judging by some of the comments and attitudes on here it clearly isn't limited to politics when judgments are made over things like low pay and lack of ambition

If you're happy Steffy then good luck to you...

live and let live..

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:20 am

Fair play Steff, will be looking at moving to Wales at some point myself, dunno where but want a little farm far away from everyone else Smile

That's why the reform is needed Toppy, I understand the fees are rising to try and stop it being a 3 year holiday but at the same time it is off putting to people that would really struggle to afford it.

Surprisingly (or not) I don't mind some of the taxes going to help subsidise further education, think it has to be measured though and should only be for certain courses.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 am

Derbymanc wrote:Fair play Steff, will be looking at moving to Wales at some point myself, dunno where but want a little farm far away from everyone else Smile

That's why the reform is needed Toppy, I understand the fees are rising to try and stop it being a 3 year holiday but at the same time it is off putting to people that would really struggle to afford it.

Surprisingly (or not) I don't mind some of the taxes going to help subsidise further education, think it has to be measured though and should only be for certain courses.

Am largely in agreement then.

1 thought I've had for a long time is that the student's contribution (which is what the fee is, since even now it's not 100% cover and benefits from partial subsidisation) should be subject to a collar equivalent to the average annual cost of the last 3 or 5 years of education.

Ergo, rich private school kids that have been paying £10-25k pa school fees shouldn't then get 'cheap' degrees for only a few k, or even £9k, per annum.

This would also combat current auto-matic benefits such as for children of divorced parents - friend of mine went to Bedford Boys school but got almost free Uni education as his parents were divorced, despite his dad still earning a mint as a Partner in a law firm. My best mate on the other hand who had a nurse mum and BT engineer dad and same state school education as me had to pay full whack.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:20 am

Derbymanc wrote:Fair play Steff, will be looking at moving to Wales at some point myself, dunno where but want a little farm far away from everyone else Smile

That's why the reform is needed Toppy, I understand the fees are rising to try and stop it being a 3 year holiday but at the same time it is off putting to people that would really struggle to afford it.

Surprisingly (or not) I don't mind some of the taxes going to help subsidise further education, think it has to be measured though and should only be for certain courses.

How are you going to sort out the deserving from the undeserving ???......

I might work my bollox off and struggle through a degree course because I'm not naturally as gifted as a party boy with a photographic memory...

Or maybe I'm from a poor school with crap teachers and scraped into University when some party boy had the luxury of great teaching at a public school..

I got a 2:1 degree in Psychology and I struggled.......I was lucky because to get into Industrial psychology these days employers are looking for a Masters...for the decent jobs anyway..

I was lucky I had a job waiting and you could get into the field with a standard BSC in the early 90s..


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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:34 pm

Cannot believe that, wrote a massive reply out and the fricking internet cut out and has made me log in again wiping the lot, bloody thing.

To try and answer you again Truss, Toppy's got some good ideas above but those deserving means the ones at the top of their class working towards their chosen degree. If you want it paid for then show your willing to put the time in. Other things could be checking against your background so the poorest get more help (public schools over private schools).

Your 2nd comment about the guy with the photographic memory is just tough really, that's the way the world works and if someone can't face up to that in Uni then they're not really ready for the adult world. Harsh but that's how life works out.

On the degrees themselves, my own opinion is that there are too many these days, they need to be stripped back and not have a 'everybody can attain this' policy. A masters etc should be for the cream of the crop and I think this has caused the degrees to be undervalued these days which is why instead of giving you a massive step up for a job they're seen by some as a 3 year party and no great job at the end of it. (BTW this doesn't count for all just some)

Also, spot on for toughing it through yours, it's no mean feat and something you should be proud of for yourself and your family.

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Post by VTR on Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:12 pm

I'm still waiting for some stats to back up the claim 19k is a good long-term graduate salary in South Wales. Perhaps the person spouting off on here is in fact the one without a grasp of basic economics - who'd have thought it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:23 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Cannot believe that, wrote a massive reply out and the fricking internet cut out and has made me log in again wiping the lot, bloody thing.

To try and answer you again Truss, Toppy's got some good ideas above but those deserving means the ones at the top of their class working towards their chosen degree. If you want it paid for then show your willing to put the time in. Other things could be checking against your background so the poorest get more help (public schools over private schools).

Your 2nd comment about the guy with the photographic memory is just tough really, that's the way the world works and if someone can't face up to that in Uni then they're not really ready for the adult world. Harsh but that's how life works out.

On the degrees themselves, my own opinion is that there are too many these days, they need to be stripped back and not have a 'everybody can attain this' policy. A masters etc should be for the cream of the crop and I think this has caused the degrees to be undervalued these days which is why instead of giving you a massive step up for a job they're seen by some as a 3 year party and no great job at the end of it. (BTW this doesn't count for all just some)

Also, spot on for toughing it through yours, it's no mean feat and something you should be proud of for yourself and your family.

It doesn't address my argument that time in doesn't always equal just reward...Some people aren't as gifted but work harder than those that are !!

I thought we were meant to reward hard work !!.

Not proud of myself I've had more luck and breaks than most..


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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:19 pm

I'm not sure I mentioned time in Truss, although doesn't each degree have a time on it (ie 3 years) in which case if you don't/can't pass in that time then a degree isn't for you (no shame in that, I have 1 NVQ in further education and realised i'd rather work)

Hard work should be rewarded but if you work really hard but are still crap then that's just a fact of life and you need to move to something else.

Just because you've had lucky breaks, doesn't mean you shouldn't be proud of yourself bud. I've got a few members of my family that started off as wrong 'uns and due to a couple of lucky breaks have really made something of themselves. Am chuffed with both that they managed to do that.

Or to put it another way, someone may have offered you the break but it's you that makes the most of it.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:...I thought we were meant to reward hard work !!....
Don't be daft. Why would you think that ever has, or ever will, happen?

To go back to Uni fees. Laudable aim to get 50% through Uni but, actually, pretty silly. Too many waste their time thinking that they have to get a degree. Employers are too dumb to realise it's often not worth insisting on a degree etc either. Not a sensible idea to pay for out of general taxation either with that number whereas in the 80s, you could make a good case for funding out of taxation. £9k fees isn't enough for most STEM subject degrees either; not any more, so expect them to be going up soon.

I understand where Steffan is coming from in that he can, so he plans to, play the system. Pretty scummy though IMO. I guess some people weren't raised with any sense of pride or a decent moral compass.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:42 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I'm not sure I mentioned time in Truss, although doesn't each degree have a time on it (ie 3 years) in which case if you don't/can't pass in that time then a degree isn't for you (no shame in that, I have 1 NVQ in further education and realised i'd rather work)

Hard work should be rewarded but if you work really hard but are still crap then that's just a fact of life and you need to move to something else.

Just because you've had lucky breaks, doesn't mean you shouldn't be proud of yourself bud. I've got a few members of my family that started off as wrong 'uns and due to a couple of lucky breaks have really made something of themselves. Am chuffed with both that they managed to do that.

Or to put it another way, someone may have offered you the break but it's you that makes the most of it.

You don't get money for repeat study..............At least you didn't when I was there many moons ago.

If this hasn't changed then your point is irrelevant.

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:46 pm

I didn't make a point on time, Truss, you did.

I think there's too much funding for all and sundry to do degrees and people are being pushed into a route they may not want to go down but feel they have too.

There are too many degrees being handed out which undervalues the degree itself (same thing happened to NVW's (equivalent to A levels my butt.)

If you have to work hard for it then so be it, if it all comes naturally and you fly through it well that's just tough cookies for the geezer/ess that had to work harder.


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:56 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I didn't make a point on time, Truss, you did.

I think there's too much funding for all and sundry to do degrees and people are being pushed into a route they may not want to go down but feel they have too.

There are too many degrees being handed out which undervalues the degree itself (same thing happened to NVW's (equivalent to A levels my butt.)

If you have to work hard for it then so be it, if it all comes naturally and you fly through it well that's just tough cookies for the geezer/ess that had to work harder.


Exactly. How are you setting someone up for the 'real world' by saying, "you're not very bright but you tried really hard to we'll give you a good degree all the same and you'll get a good job, possibly better than someone that actually outperformed you". 9 months later you're made redundant because you've also underperformed in that job whilst other, perhaps smarter, people have over-taken you.

Meanwhile you may have closed a number of doors to yourself for other careers in which you could've excelled with the appropriate training and experience, not a phoney 3 year degree.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:59 pm

The whole education system is geared around dragging up the masses (who largely aren't trying to learn) rather than stretching the best.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:28 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I didn't make a point on time, Truss, you did.

I think there's too much funding for all and sundry to do degrees and people are being pushed into a route they may not want to go down but feel they have too.

There are too many degrees being handed out which undervalues the degree itself (same thing happened to NVW's (equivalent to A levels my butt.)

If you have to work hard for it then so be it, if it all comes naturally and you fly through it well that's just tough cookies for the geezer/ess that had to work harder.


I'm not arguing that there aren't too many degrees about.......I'm arguing that for some people education comes easier than others.....

If a kid is willing to put the hours in for a second or a third instead of chucking it all in and working in a factory...Then good luck to him..

Doesn't mean that they are party boys because they aren't performing as well as Percival who has had all the advantages..

You can't always factor in that hard work = top of the class.....It's not that simple..

Anyone who tries to improve their lives and is willing to work his butt off and over-achieve deserves support...

Overachieving for some maybe a third class degree....Underachieving for others maybe a second..

No size fits all..

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Post by Steffan on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:26 am

navyblueshorts wrote:I understand where Steffan is coming from in that he can, so he plans to, play the system. Pretty scummy though IMO. I guess some people weren't raised with any sense of pride or a decent moral compass.
No...I was raised by a man (and his wife) who worked his way up from the depths of poverty to go on to be a successful person who always provided well for me and my brothers and supported us and encouraged us to get on in life

Say what you like about me I don't care...but don't slate the people who raised me (my parents) when you have NO IDEA about where they came from, how hard they worked and what pride, morals and decency they apparently didn't teach. I expect this kind of post from a moron but as a moderator posting this I find it rather offensive actually

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:29 am

Agree with you............Try finding a successful businessman and politician that has a decent moral compass...

All of us on this board have got away with something we thought was dodgy at one time or another..

All of us..

Remember just after I came over I crashed my girlfriend's car into a parked car and drove off...........When I got to her house and showed her the damage... I said someone must have crashed into her pride and joy when I was out shopping !!.

My catholic upbringing didn't tell me to do that !!

By the way it's been nearly 25 years but I'd like to apologise to whoever owned the car !!... thumbsup


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ....)

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Post by Steffan on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:39 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Agree with you............Try finding a successful businessman and politician that has a decent moral compass...

All of us on this board have got away with something we thought was dodgy at one time or another..

All of us..
I know Truss. There really are some apparent high and mighty people on this forum (mods included) who seem to be quite happy to judge others on backgrounds, morals and so called lack of ambition

Quite absurd really considering none of us have ever met each other or know what messed up things really gone on in anyone's life...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:47 am

Everybody judges people........Appearance, the way they speak,where they live and where they go to school...I'm guilty of it.

Try getting into a top University if you're from a state school when you have the same grades as someone who has been privately educated....

They are being judged.....

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Post by Steffan on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:05 am

I could of actually gone to UCL to do a Masters. I think it was more the 9K fees and London living cost mind that put a stop to it rather than my broad Welsh accent (identical to Rhod Gilbert apparently) and the fact that I went to one of the most violent and underachieving schools in the whole of South Wales Laugh

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:10 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Try getting into a top University if you're from a state school when you have the same grades as someone who has been privately educated....


Other way round these days....

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:16 am

Steffan wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I understand where Steffan is coming from in that he can, so he plans to, play the system. Pretty scummy though IMO. I guess some people weren't raised with any sense of pride or a decent moral compass.
No...I was raised by a man (and his wife) who worked his way up from the depths of poverty to go on to be a successful person who always provided well for me and my brothers and supported us and encouraged us to get on in life

Say what you like about me I don't care...but don't slate the people who raised me (my parents) when you have NO IDEA about where they came from, how hard they worked and what pride, morals and decency they apparently didn't teach. I expect this kind of post from a moron but as a moderator posting this I find it rather offensive actually
Ahh. The "subtle" insults. I wasn't posting as a moderator. My apologies if I slighted your parents - they may well have been decent people but clearly your attitude is something all of your own. Your morals etc re. this issue are clear from your recent post history. You clearly have no compunction in taking a loan (presumably with the intent of bettering yourself and maybe earning more as a result?) while having no intent whatsoever to pay it back to those who lent it to you. As I said, pretty scummy.
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Post by Pr4wn on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:16 am

seanmichaels wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Try getting into a top University if you're from a state school when you have the same grades as someone who has been privately educated....


Other way round these days....

Lol, behave.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:18 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Everybody judges people........Appearance, the way they speak,where they live and where they go to school...I'm guilty of it.

Try getting into a top University if you're from a state school when you have the same grades as someone who has been privately educated....

They are being judged.....
Sorry. You're talking nonsense and basing opinion on ancient history. What do you mean by "top University"? Even Oxford/Cambridge don't behave the way you're suggesting any more.
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