Having lots of kids - Is it arrogant?

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Post by Steffan on Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

I grew up with a guy who I am still friends with to this day

He got married and now has 5 kids with his wife

The other day a few pictures came up on Facebook and I just could't help but think "You really must love yourselves to want to supply the world with so many copies of yourself"

Now as a guy who has never wanted kids, never will and quite honestly cannot even grasp the concept of why anyone would want them maybe I am naturally going to be cynical

I appreciate what they do doesn't affect me but I just couldn't help but think "how smug are you"

So is having lots of kids arrogant or do they just like children?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:55 pm

Think that guy in Paris the other day was.....

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:09 pm

Pr4wn wrote:I'm of the opinion that having lots of children is selfish. Nothing personal to those that have them, but increasing the world's population even further just isn't wise, whether you can afford to pay for them or not.

Why is not wise if you can afford it, i'm not going to have another child and move to an area or country where over population is a problem, such a stupid opinion to have.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:30 pm

It's not wise because you have to be masochist to have that many.......Rather have a stretch in HMP than have three more.....

But if you can afford it then good luck to you......You'll probably need it..

Let's cut the red tape for these good people who want to adopt is a more pressing conversation....Disgrace as is !!!...

Give some kids a good home and make some loving couples who can't produce...find that missing something in their lives.......

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:18 am

If you can afford it, go ahead. But this exemplifies the selfish attitude I'm talking about. It's not just about you. It's about the entire planet. We're already running out of food, soon we'll be running out of water. Another four or five mouths to feed is not what the world needs.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:28 pm

Pr4wn wrote:If you can afford it, go ahead. But this exemplifies the selfish attitude I'm talking about. It's not just about you. It's about the entire planet. We're already running out of food, soon we'll be running out of water. Another four or five mouths to feed is not what the world needs.
A little OTT maybe?
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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:48 pm

You think that we can keep producing food and water for everyone with the world's population growing as it is?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:58 pm

Pr4wn wrote:You think that we can keep producing food and water for everyone with the world's population growing as it is?
Your earlier comment suggests imminent doom is upon us whereas I think that's a little exaggerated. As for the above, of course not but it's a question of when it becomes untenable. If parts of the world stopped killing one another, maybe they'd have the time to farm efficiently and produce clean water for their populations. If despots in some of the wealthiest parts of the world actually gave a stuff for their own people, maybe their nation might be able to produce sufficient agricultural output and decent water for once. If resulting life expectancies rose, maybe families would see less of a need to have numerous children in order to survive.

On another topic, maybe the Catholic Church might like to suggest that contraception is actually OK and won't result in eternal damnation. That would probably help quite a bit.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:00 pm

Pr4wn wrote:You think that we can keep producing food and water for everyone with the world's population growing as it is?

It's not a problem the west has to worry about mate....

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:02 pm

Like I said i'm not going up sticks and move to a country where overcrowding, food and water is a problem, these are problems that don't factor into my thinking as they aren't problems to me or anyone else in the developed world truth be told.

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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:56 pm

I'm back with my ex who wants kids. I've told her she will never have them with me and she said that she accepts it and will probably never have any anyway now so it's no longer an issue. At least I have been honest with her from the start. I always tell any woman I get in a relationship with that being a parent doesn't appeal to me and they all seem to think it's a bit of a laugh until further down the line they say...'But I thought you would change your mind'

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Post by Rowley on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:58 pm

This thread is going better than you could have imagined Steffan, you should take up fishing professionally. Robert Shaw would be envious.

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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:01 pm

Rowley wrote:This thread is going better than you could have imagined Steffan, you should take up fishing professionally. Robert Shaw would be envious.
Yeah I know. Dave and Sha's ruthless assassinations on my character just for asking a question their brains couldn't take was a bit like a shark attack

I'm gonna need a bigger boat

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Post by Stella on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:07 pm

Steffan wrote:I'm back with my ex who wants kids. I've told her she will never have them with me and she said that she accepts it and will probably never have any anyway now so it's no longer an issue. At least I have been honest with her from the start. I always tell any woman I get in a relationship with that being a parent doesn't appeal to me and they all seem to think it's a bit of a laugh until further down the line they say...'But I thought you would change your mind'

How old are you, Steffan? No offence meant, just thinking you may change your mind.
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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:13 pm

Stella wrote:
Steffan wrote:I'm back with my ex who wants kids. I've told her she will never have them with me and she said that she accepts it and will probably never have any anyway now so it's no longer an issue. At least I have been honest with her from the start. I always tell any woman I get in a relationship with that being a parent doesn't appeal to me and they all seem to think it's a bit of a laugh until further down the line they say...'But I thought you would change your mind'

How old are you, Steffan? No offence meant, just thinking you may change your mind.
35 next month buddy

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Post by Stella on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:17 pm

Steffan wrote:
Stella wrote:
Steffan wrote:I'm back with my ex who wants kids. I've told her she will never have them with me and she said that she accepts it and will probably never have any anyway now so it's no longer an issue. At least I have been honest with her from the start. I always tell any woman I get in a relationship with that being a parent doesn't appeal to me and they all seem to think it's a bit of a laugh until further down the line they say...'But I thought you would change your mind'

How old are you, Steffan? No offence meant, just thinking you may change your mind.
35 next month buddy

Oh, maybe not then. I always wanted kids, and thankfully have a couple. Not for everyone though OK
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Post by Rowley on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:20 pm

I haven't got any and both me and the TSMR are past the age were we will change or minds. Got to be honest the constant pressure to have them does get on my wick a little. I would never dream of criticising anyone for having them or the number they so not too sure why the same courtesy cannot be extended in reverse. Should be a matter of personal choice between a couple.

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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:22 pm

Stella wrote:
Steffan wrote:
Stella wrote:
Steffan wrote:I'm back with my ex who wants kids. I've told her she will never have them with me and she said that she accepts it and will probably never have any anyway now so it's no longer an issue. At least I have been honest with her from the start. I always tell any woman I get in a relationship with that being a parent doesn't appeal to me and they all seem to think it's a bit of a laugh until further down the line they say...'But I thought you would change your mind'

How old are you, Steffan? No offence meant, just thinking you may change your mind.
35 next month buddy

Oh, maybe not then. I always wanted kids, and thankfully have a couple. Not for everyone though OK
Yep I agree OK

Each to their own. I personally have never wanted them but my mate who I was best man for always wanted them and is having his fourth this year

Nothing wrong with his seed Laugh

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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:28 pm

Rowley wrote:I haven't got any and both me and the TSMR are past the age were we will change or minds. Got to be honest the constant pressure to have them does get on my wick a little. I would never dream of criticising anyone for having them or the number they so not too sure why the same courtesy cannot be extended in reverse. Should be a matter of personal choice between a couple.
I was on a works do once and one of the girls who was normally a nice enough person asked me how many kids I wanted. When I said none she looked like I had suddenly made five extra heads appear and they decided to tell everyone on the table individually that 'You're never gonna believe this but Steffan does't want kids how odd is that etc'. Thankfully some of the people told her to drop the subject

I've also had the usual macho types say 'What kind of man doesn't want a son of his own etc' attitude

I used to get a bit sick of the whole 'You don't want kids so therefore are a bad person or an oddball' attitude but thankfully as I have hit my 30s people don't seem to say much anymore especially as I now live in the city where being 30+ and having no family is quite normal to many people

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:30 pm

A girl comes up to you out of the blue and asks you how many kids you want ??

strange...

You protest too much Steffan...

My guess is you envy your mate....

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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:37 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:A girl comes up to you out of the blue and asks you how many kids you want ??

strange...

You protest too much Steffan...

My guess is you envy your mate....
She didn't come up to me Truss it was on a works meal at a table

Your guess is wrong my friend

Funnily he says in jest that he envies me

My mate who is on a 60K a a job year and is seeing a hot Japanese girl...now I envy him

To be honest I was just putting the question out there. I expect there are many people who have lots of kids just because they love kids. I'm sure there are a quite a few Boris Johnson types though who think 'Come on darling, the world needs more of us'

Thanks to all the good responses though and the debate

Apologies to everyone for Dave and Sha's behaviour. Some people are just not capable of of a constructive debate without turning to insults sadly

Thanks again though and here's to many more Smile

Regards

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:18 pm

It's only my opinion and why care what I think...

Nothing wrong with not having kids my friend...If Jo hadn't of wanted a kid I wouldn't have been bothered...Our second wasn't planned.

See the world and enjoy yourself...

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Post by Steffan on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:24 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's only my opinion and why care what I think...

Nothing wrong with not having kids my friend...If Jo hadn't of wanted a kid I wouldn't have been bothered...Our second wasn't planned.

See the world and enjoy yourself...
Aye travelling is my passion. Just come back from Berlin and had a lovely time

Already booking now to go visit my mate in Tbilisi. He is an English foreign language teacher out there. I have a TEFL certificate myself but I found the teaching was a lot harder than I thought it would be. Think I'd rather just work in a bar to be honest

Funnily enough the mrs who is working towards her PGCE is now on about going to Spain to teach English for a while. Her brother is already living in Barcelona. Not sure where this has come from but definitely one of her better ideas

Happy New Year by the way Truss OK

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Post by huw on Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:33 am

Arrogance is a strange choice of words.

I have had three kids and there was no thought of wanting loads of little me's running around.

I love kids and had a pretty rough upbringing which led to some poor choices on my part but kids are the best thing I have ever done. They are my pride and joy, it is like cultivating my own little organ farm for when mine start to fail.....

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:45 am

huw wrote:Arrogance is a strange choice of words.

I have had three kids and there was no thought of wanting loads of little me's running around.

I love kids and had a pretty rough upbringing which led to some poor choices on my part but kids are the best thing I have ever done. They are my pride and joy, it is like cultivating my own little organ farm for when mine start to fail.....

Yewtree cometh

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Post by huw on Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:15 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
huw wrote:Arrogance is a strange choice of words.

I have had three kids and there was no thought of wanting loads of little me's running around.

I love kids and had a pretty rough upbringing which led to some poor choices on my part but kids are the best thing I have ever done. They are my pride and joy, it is like cultivating my own little organ farm for when mine start to fail.....

Yewtree cometh

I'm getting old, anyone under 30 is a kid as far as I'm concerned. Also I would like to point out I have NEVER worked for the BBC...

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Post by Mochyn du on Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:57 pm

Interesting topic. I personally think no-one should be allowed to have more than 2 children. The world, (even this country) is becoming unpleasantly overcrowded. How many more billions must we have on this planet before world governments say "enough is enough" and impose strict quotas on its people. Famine, droughts, conflicts, genocide, racism can all be linked to too many people being around in one area.

It is especially irritating to see people who have multiple children but not have the means to pay for and raise them on their own without government interventions. Hate to sound a bit of a eugenicist but I think the time has come for the UN to come together and stop people having so many kids. No-one needs more than two kids!

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:58 pm

I say have as many kids as you want...provided you have the means to support them.

What I really hate are career benefit claimants who have litters of sprogs, simply because they know they can claim more benefits.

I'm sort of with the OP in that I've never wished to have kids and don't particularly understand those who delight in parenthood. I had to help look after my younger siblings and while I didn't hate it, its not something I ever wanted to do for myself.
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Post by Mochyn du on Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:15 pm

I admire you and the OP for choosing not to have kids. But I think it's too simplistic to say that if you have the means have as many as you like.

The fact is, living space is becoming ever more squeezed, public services are ever more stretched, people keep getting older and roads keep getting busier. There'll come a time when living standards will start to decrease and I do not agree that we should all embrace a future where our kids will have to live in box like properties to accommodate an ever swelling world population.

Everyone should be entitled to experience parenthood and I embrace treatments for infertility for those who struggle but wish to have a child. But the problem lies with selfish people wanting to have four, five, six or more kids. These people are contributing to a future of over crowded desolation and dystopia and it's time governments woke up and started dealing with this controversial but extremely important subject matter.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:14 pm

Surely you would look at people who live in huge houses before people having more than 2 kids?

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:32 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Surely you would look at people who live in huge houses before people having more than 2 kids?

Hard to do that and tug the forelock at the same time.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:47 pm

Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:50 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?
Depends, Toppy could eat a whole country for breatfast

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:00 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

Doesnt really affect overcrowding though?

Not to be a Duty on this, but does immigration control not come before limiting the amount of children people are allowed?

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:03 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

Doesnt really affect overcrowding though?

Not to be a Duty on this, but does immigration control not come before limiting the amount of children people are allowed?
Just allow immigrant children in, those who want kids could take them in and give them the life their parents hoped for them when they sent them to England

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:05 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

Doesnt really affect overcrowding though?

Not to be a Duty on this, but does immigration control not come before limiting the amount of children people are allowed?

We'd have to sort out the pensions first

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:06 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

Doesnt really affect overcrowding though?

Not to be a Duty on this, but does immigration control not come before limiting the amount of children people are allowed?
Just allow immigrant children in, those who want kids could take them in and give them the life their parents hoped for them when they sent them to England

Id agree to some extent except;

Are we taking kids from refugee parents?
People have a right to want to have their own children.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:06 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

Doesnt really affect overcrowding though?

Not to be a Duty on this, but does immigration control not come before limiting the amount of children people are allowed?

We'd have to sort out the pensions first

Old buggers living longer is the problem as it is!

We should be sorting out education and the NHS first anyway

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:16 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?

Doesnt really affect overcrowding though?

Not to be a Duty on this, but does immigration control not come before limiting the amount of children people are allowed?

We'd have to sort out the pensions first

Old buggers living longer is the problem as it is!

We should be sorting out education and the NHS first anyway

That's what I meant, immigration is a necessity because white English people are having less kids essentially. This leads to a necessity of labour from supplied elsewhere to work and fill the treasury coffers to pay off existing pensions. The same problem as Germany had but on a smaller scale as the immigration here has been steadily high so we didn't need to resort to the desperate measure that Germany did in letting so many in at once. If immigration is your main bugbear (not directed at you Adolph) then you'd be better off making babies at a rate of knots.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:25 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Surely you would look at people who live in huge houses before people having more than 2 kids?

How does the cost of THEIR 'huge house' negatively impact the rest of society??

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:26 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?
Depends, Toppy could eat a whole country for breatfast

Have done. Fooking epic.

Off to Sri Lanka in a week, curry for breakfast every day I'm hoping....

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Post by Mochyn du on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:27 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Surely you would look at people who live in huge houses before people having more than 2 kids?

Why? If you live in a huge house then it's your right as you've earned it. I know it's simplistic but living in a mansion with several acres of land should be something to aspire to not be something for other folk to resent. I know the rich should pay more taxes but that's another matter to be discussed. Some rich are parasites and some create wealth for others. But this isn't about rich and poor it's about too many people.

We should live in a world where we're free to be ambitious, have wealth but have the very basics of space and freedom. Our space and freedom is being gradually eroded away, and we're increasingly being shunted into ever smaller properties in ever crowded towns and cities and this will eventually lead to mass destruction and suffering if governments don't sort it out and tackle it. Immigration is just one control to ease population growth but the other solution is to stop people breeding so much, or to terminate the old at a particular age. I think the third one most would say is unpalatable.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:27 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Surely you would look at people who live in huge houses before people having more than 2 kids?

How does the cost of THEIR 'huge house' negatively impact the rest of society??

I don't think the cost is the issue, it's the inefficient use of space. Although I agree with your point.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:29 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?
Depends, Toppy could eat a whole country for breatfast

Have done. Fooking epic.

Off to Sri Lanka in a week, curry for breakfast every day I'm hoping....

The moment Ceylon becomes So long.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:33 pm

So, essentially, its fine for people to have big houses they have earned when there is overcrowding but I shouldn't have 4 kids even though I could afford it?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:30 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Not really. A house is a house but how much does one human consume throughout a lifetime?
Depends, Toppy could eat a whole country for breatfast

Have done. Fooking epic.

Off to Sri Lanka in a week, curry for breakfast every day I'm hoping....

The moment Ceylon becomes So long.

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh clap

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So, essentially, its fine for people to have big houses they have earned when there is overcrowding but I shouldn't have 4 kids even though I could afford it?

No. It's fine for someone to be ambitious and successful and enjoy the corresponding rewards. It's also fine for someone to have as many children as they want providing the don't create a burden to the State or society.

If you have 4 kids, accommodated in your own 4 bed house, and send them all to private school/are a higher rate tax payer that contributes enough into the system to balance your kids' drain on education on healthcare - how can anyone complain?

Though, as per the earlier poster, a large empty house could also be said to not contribute to a drain on natural resources, whereas a large family certainly could.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:45 pm

Glad to see you've regained your good humour Toppy. I was expecting accusations of conspiring with CS to reform in his words the "soveit onion".

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:50 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So, essentially, its fine for people to have big houses they have earned when there is overcrowding but I shouldn't have 4 kids even though I could afford it?

No. It's fine for someone to be ambitious and successful and enjoy the corresponding rewards. It's also fine for someone to have as many children as they want providing the don't create a burden to the State or society.

If you have 4 kids, accommodated in your own 4 bed house, and send them all to private school/are a higher rate tax payer that contributes enough into the system to balance your kids' drain on education on healthcare - how can anyone complain?

Though, as per the earlier poster, a large empty house could also be said to not contribute to a drain on natural resources, whereas a large family certainly could.

Agree with you Toppy, just seems interesting to have someone (not thou) thought we should have a 2 kids limit

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Post by Mochyn du on Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:39 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So, essentially, its fine for people to have big houses they have earned when there is overcrowding but I shouldn't have 4 kids even though I could afford it?

No. It's fine for someone to be ambitious and successful and enjoy the corresponding rewards. It's also fine for someone to have as many children as they want providing the don't create a burden to the State or society.

If you have 4 kids, accommodated in your own 4 bed house, and send them all to private school/are a higher rate tax payer that contributes enough into the system to balance your kids' drain on education on healthcare - how can anyone complain?

Though, as per the earlier poster, a large empty house could also be said to not contribute to a drain on natural resources, whereas a large family certainly could.

This is not about being able to pay for your kids it's about overcrowding and decreasing living space, conurbations constantly being eroded away by more and more urbanisation and general overcrowding everywhere. Breeding self sufficient children not reliant on welfare when they grow up doesn't solve the issue of the planet's population constantly increasing. When will it reach a breaking point?

Check out the Mars trilogy. Either we sanction a limit on the amount of breeding we do or we find new planets to live on.

Happy Friday. I'm off to sample some fine Belgian and German beers!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:43 pm

Your two arguments are at odds with each other.

An example would be someone with a home big enough to house say 5 children, they have the means to send them to private school and private healthcare but they're only allowed to have two because they'll be a burden on society, how?

The overcrowding argument is nonsensical.

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