Saffers - England, 1st test, Durban - match thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Jimmy Anderson officially out, Woakes and Finn expected to be named with Jordan, footitt and ballance missing out.

Joe Root missing training today due to an upset stomach, but should be ok for day one

[Duty281]

And that should be that. Great bowling from Finn at the end.

6 more for a precious 1-0 lead.

[GSC]

Reasonable day for SA, but they were so far behind it wasn't nearly enough. Losing Du Plessis casts a large shadow.

[alfie]

Steyn is a brave shout

He's a tough lad !

136/4

Only thing that went wrong for England was that missed stumping - game would be over if AB had gone . But you'd think six more wickets won't be too hard to collect with a nights rest for the bowlers and a second new ball due shortly after lunch tomorrow .

[guildfordbat]

Thought you'd be in quickly there , guildford

You're right of course : the main function of the keeper is to keep . But England went to Prior (originally an ordinary gloveman ) when they really needed his runs.  Once he lost it they wanted a like for like replacement ...unfortunately neither of those tried has managed to nail both halves of the job. Yet.

I'm sure the keeping debate will rage in the northern summer.  In fact the thread on here may well run to the length of a Pietersen topic

Yep, beat Usain Bolt over the first 10 yards!

Very valuable wicket at the end of the day from Finn - he's having a good Test. Hoping we can wrap things up soon after lunch tomorrow. Always thought SA would struggle to top 250 in the 4th innings and will stay with that.

[alfie]

The pattern of the match has been for sides to lose their later wickets quickly on resuming in the morning...but SA may offer a bit more resistance this time. AB will be hard to shift , and since Steyn is unlikely to be swinging the bat he will have to be prised out - after which there are two more with places to save...

Expect the pitch to give Moeen a bit to work with and I won't be surprised to see him take the majority of the wickets. Will be risky for AB to try and dominate him , so he should be able to settle into a groove and pressure the others.

Finn really bowled well. Actually thought he was better than his figures indicated in the first innings too. And he'd acknowledge his debt to very good catching from Root and Cook.

Woakes was tidy enough but doesn't look likely to destroy batting lineups : suspect his immediate prospects depend on the fitness of Stokes , with Anderson likely to return for Cape Town.

Apart from winning , England will really hope to do the job quickly as there is not much rest time before Test two !

[alfie]

Perfect start for England !

AB gone ...Moeen - and a day five pitch - does the job...

[alfie]

I know there are still those who believe he shouldn't be England's spinner - and he is no Swann - but Moeen continues to take important wickets , and enough of them , to win England matches. Yes he goes for runs sometimes , and bowls a few loose ones ; but his overall reord is pretty handy. Can bat a bit too.
Until the next Laker comes along he will do me...

[alfie]

And there goes an unwanted recent record as Jonny Bairstow - very neatly - stumps Bavuma !

Two for Moeen in 9 balls and SA sinking fast .

[kingraf]

This is pretty bad. As bad as some of the beatings Australia have handed out to us

[Mat]

Never doubt Moeen

[alfie]

Finn rejoins the party and removes Steyn's off stump...

Having a fine spell ...as are England : 3/2 this morning in six overs !

[kingraf]

Not since the first session has anything gone right. Think this is our Ashes 2010-11

[alfie]

This is pretty bad. As bad as some of the beatings Australia have handed out to us

Only game one though , raf. And it is Durban...

But I think the SA batting looks pretty ordinary : surely there are better players around than van Zyl , Bavuma - and , on present form , Faf ?

[kingraf]

This is pretty bad. As bad as some of the beatings Australia have handed out to us

Only game one though , raf. And it is Durban...

But I think the SA batting looks pretty ordinary : surely there are better players around than van Zyl , Bavuma - and , on present form , Faf ?

Van Zyl is a quality batsman. But he isn't an opener. Bavuma deserved a slot based on the way he batted last season but he hasn't made the grade. Quinton de Kock scored a rock star 100 a few days ago, and Stephn Cook scored a very very good unbeaten ton yesterday. Rilee Russouw is twelfth man for this Test and has an average of around 45, but I'd be worried about picking him because he hasn't played a FC match in two seasons. Colin Ingram has a pretty average looking record but rumour has it that he averages 50 over the last two three years

[guildfordbat]

Just joined in time to see Bavuma being stumped. Far from convinced that makes everything ok behind the stumps but I guess Bairstow can breathe a bit easier.

Haven't seen AB's dismissal yet but it was clearly a massive boost to get him so early. Well done Moeen! I generally echo Alfie's very supportive comments about him. We do though need to watch the balance of the side (this isn't just about Moeen by any means); Moeen, Finn and Stokes can all be expensive which can mean Jimmy and Broad being overbowled. I do feel there's a case for Woakes to (continue to) be included although he hasn't stood out in this Test.

Finn now comes to the morning party with a text book dismissal of nightwatchman Steyn. Finn's continuing to have a good match.

And another for Moeen just before I press send. Abbott clearly lbw. Did say yesterday I didn't feel SA would reach 250. That's still more than 100 off as England need just 2 more.

[king_carlos]

Agreed about balance of the side guildford. I still feel that we need the option of a more controlling seamer (hopefully Woakes can fulfill this) and a more controlling spinner to deal with different surfaces.

Rashid is good option to have as a leg spinner who can bat - I know he isn't on tour but I'm thinking longer term. Dilly can be devastating if allowed to play his natural game, i.e. throw him the ball in the second innings and give him long spells to bowl sides out. I don't think Moeen and him can work consistently as a partnership for turning surfaces where we want 2 spinners though. It almost inevitably relies on asking one (or even both) to play a containing role in the first innings which they aren't suited to.

1.Cook (c)
2.Hales
3.Compton
4.Root
5.Taylor
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Moeen
9.Broad
10.Finn
11.Anderson

I think that is what the selectors view as full strength currently and overall I'm quite happy with it all things considered. However if we play that on a flatter track I fear that as you say Jimmy and Broad will be bowled into the ground in the 1st innings trying to contain things. In order to develop consistency longer term I think we need those containing options to tailor our side to certain surfaces.

[alfie]

Hi guildford

Wouldn't say all wicket keeping issues are solved - but certainly that stumping is a timely confidence booster for Bairstow , who might have been getting a bit twitchy after yesterday and a similar error in UAE. And confidence is a significant factor in keeping , as in all areas - not to suggest it can replace skill of course.

Your second paragraph seems to imply Woakes as an alternative to Stokes for Cape Town ? Can't see it myself unless Stokes has fitness issues. Or are advocating moving Moeen back up the order at the expense of a top order batsman ?

[king_carlos]

Back onto this match however...

Whilst the result should be a foregone conclusion from here this is a little spell of decent cricket just now. Finn and Moeen are both bowling well and Piedt is applying himself sternly. It's good little test to watch.

[kingraf]

Think Piedt has made the right call to deal with the spinner because JP is a walking wicket against them

[LondonTiger]

I do feel there's a case for Woakes to (continue to) be included although he hasn't stood out in this Test.

Surely though you cannot countenance him still being selected as an opening bowler?

[alfie]

This is pretty bad. As bad as some of the beatings Australia have handed out to us

Only game one though , raf.  And it is Durban...

But I think the SA batting looks pretty ordinary : surely there are better players around than van Zyl , Bavuma - and , on present form , Faf ?

Van Zyl is a quality batsman. But he isn't an opener. Bavuma deserved a slot based on the way he batted last season but he hasn't made the grade. Quinton de Kock scored a rock star 100 a few days ago, and Stephn Cook scored a very very good unbeaten ton yesterday. Rilee Russouw is twelfth man for this Test and has an average of around 45, but I'd be worried about picking him because he hasn't played a FC match in two seasons. Colin Ingram has a pretty average looking record but rumour has it that he averages 50 over the last two three years

So bring in Cook to open , move van Zyl down the order - and bring in de Kock ...leave out two of Faf , Bavuma or Duminy ?

[king_carlos]

With an average in the low 30s after 32 test JP is one of those guys who you have to ask, how many times...

He's capable of fantastic innings but surely it must reach the point where he has to deliver at some point? Especially when you could accommodate an in form De Kock at his expense and take the gloves away from AB.

[guildfordbat]

I do feel there's a case for Woakes to (continue to) be included although he hasn't stood out in this Test.

Surely though you cannot countenance him still being selected as an opening bowler?

I've never countenanced that. IF Woakes plays, he would primarily be the 4th seamer doing the holding role in my team. That doesn't sound too supportive and it's probably not but I do feel it is a role that may be required, particularly dependent upon playing conditions and strength of opposition batsmen.

[king_carlos]

One of the worst overs he has bowled in the match with a couple of poor balls down the leg side.

That's a deserved wicket over the course of the game for Woakes though.

[alfie]

Woakes on the board at last as he has Piedt caught at short leg...glad to see him get a wicket , has bowled all right as part of a very good team effort

Not long now ...

[guildfordbat]

With an average in the low 30s after 32 test JP is one of those guys who you have to ask, how many times...

He's capable of fantastic innings but surely it must reach the point where he has to deliver at some point? Especially when you could accommodate an in form De Kock at his expense and take the gloves away from AB.

Hi Carlos - I saw his average on tv this morning. I was quite surprised, expecting it to be a fair bit higher. As you suggest, the SA selectors should be putting him under the microscope.

[kingraf]

Hard to say. I don't know if Cook and Quinny can come in. Its a two day turn around and they're out in the highveld so I don't think they'll be called up. But long term yeah. Since the 2014 Australia series Faf has averaged 31 at a Nick Compton esque strike rate of 37. So he's in real danger. If it was me I'd go.

Cook
Elgar
Amla
Abdv
van Zyl
Bavuma/JPD/Faf DuP
Quinny
Piedt
Steyn
Rabada
Morkel

[GSC]

Gonna be comfortable in the end, early in the series but SA have the look of the England team they beat to go to #1. Once AB went, they folded completely.

Only Piedt and Elgar can really walk away thinking they've done themselves justice. Amla and Duminy in particular should come under real pressure. And Steyn has to be a doubt for the next test.

[LondonTiger]

I do feel there's a case for Woakes to (continue to) be included although he hasn't stood out in this Test.

Surely though you cannot countenance him still being selected as an opening bowler?

I've never countenanced that. IF Woakes plays, he would primarily be the 4th seamer doing the holding role in my team. That doesn't sound too supportive and it's probably not but I do feel it is a role that may be required, particularly dependent upon playing conditions and strength of opposition batsmen.

I agree with you, but of course that then means he is competing with Stokes for the 4th seamer spot, and so long as they see Stokes as a number 6 batter Woakes will always struggle to usurp him in the selectors minds.

[guildfordbat]

Hi guildford

Wouldn't say all wicket keeping issues are solved - but certainly that stumping is a timely confidence booster for Bairstow , who might have been getting a bit twitchy after yesterday and a similar error in UAE.  And confidence is a significant factor in keeping , as in all areas - not to suggest it can replace skill of course.

Your second paragraph seems to imply Woakes as an alternative to Stokes for Cape Town ?  Can't see it myself unless Stokes has fitness issues.  Or are advocating moving Moeen back up the order at the expense of a top order batsman ?

Hi Alfie - really just floating thoughts as to the balance of the attack and putting them out there. Definitely wouldn't move Moeen back up the order . We may not fully understand it but Moeen's doing brilliantly atm - leave as is!

Stokes probably has enough credit and is sufficient threat to stay in the team but - and this is perhaps what I was getting at for now - that shouldn't always be an automatic assumption.

I'm inclined to feel that Woakes will and should make way for Jimmy for the second Test assuming all are fit. That's probably the best decision in all the circumstances. However, that doesn't mean the balance is ideal.

[GSC]

I just don't see Woakes as more than a "bits and pieces" cricketer in test cricket, dont really think he gets picked on either his batting or bowling. Dont see how he's going to get many people out at test level.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I like the idea of Woakes in the side instead of Stokes, move the keeper upto 6, Moeen at 7 and Woakes at 8.

My Moeen top wicket taker tip looking good so far!

[GSC]

There's no way in my mind Woakes would ever make a test side over Ben Stokes.

[king_carlos]

With Moeen a County Championship number 3 and Woakes having an appreciably higher First Class average than Stokes I would hope that the selectors would consider rotating him out if it best suited the side for the surface.

I can't see it happening myself as Stokes is viewed as a linchpin in the side. I think he's talented enough to perform that role but until he is showing consistency with either bat or ball (let alone both) I wouldn't be at all adverse to him being rotated out when required.

[guildfordbat]

I do feel there's a case for Woakes to (continue to) be included although he hasn't stood out in this Test.

Surely though you cannot countenance him still being selected as an opening bowler?

I've never countenanced that. IF Woakes plays, he would primarily be the 4th seamer doing the holding role in my team. That doesn't sound too supportive and it's probably not but I do feel it is a role that may be required, particularly dependent upon playing conditions and strength of opposition batsmen.

I agree with you, but of course that then means he is competing with Stokes for the 4th seamer spot, and so long as they see Stokes as a number 6 batter Woakes will always struggle to usurp him in the selectors minds.

As well as competing with Stokes for a spot, Woakes could in the future also challenge Finn for a place in the side. Finn's had a very good Test here but his past record for fitness and reliability suggest his place won't always be nailed on.

[guildfordbat]

I like the idea of Woakes in the side instead of Stokes, move the keeper upto 6, Moeen at 7 and Woakes at 8.

My Moeen top wicket taker tip looking good so far!

Yes but how's Ballance doing as top run scorer?

Unfair I know, as that last prediction of your's was for last summer. Great leveller though for all this game!

[kingraf]

Well Game over. Herschelle Gibbs reckons the Newlands track will be similar to this one so there's that

[alfie]

Appropriate finish with Broad pinning Morkel...

He'd be my MoTM for his decisive first innings bowling - and valuable runs. Though you could make a case for Moeen or Compton.

Thumping win for England . And relatively short last day - important if they lose the toss at Newlands.

[kingraf]

Well Game over. Herschelle Gibbs reckons the Newlands track will be similar to this one so there's that

[guildfordbat]

With Moeen a County Championship number 3 and Woakes having an appreciably higher First Class average than Stokes I would hope that the selectors would consider rotating him out if it best suited the side for the surface.

I can't see it happening myself as Stokes is viewed as a linchpin in the side. I think he's talented enough to perform that role but until he is showing consistency with either bat or ball (let alone both) I wouldn't be at all adverse to him being rotated out when required.

Just to repeat some past praise for Moeen - feel he's earned it. Saw him make an excellent attacking century batting at number 3 for Worcs against Surrey at the Oval in 2014. Really got after Batty and (another of Olly's pin ups) Ansari. Anyway, soon after he was out, there was no resting on his laurels during the lunch interval. He was straightaway back on the outfield and practising his bowling. Never the most naturally gifted bowler but an extremely dedicated one.

[LondonTiger]

My England Ratings:

Cook 4 - 0/5 as batter, 4/5 as skipper
Hales 2 - Got himself out once set in second innings. Not a good debut, but some signs he may settle.
Compton 8 - Good comeback
Root 6 - Twice pretty much got himself out when set, Was angry that he had missed out on another ton. Important runs in second innings and helped see off the new ball in first.
Taylor 7 - important first innings runs, and decent knock in second.
Stokes 4 - Solid in role as 4th seamer, little significant contribution with bat.
Bairstow 6 - 4/5 as batter, 2/5 as keeper (missed a catch that a decent keeper should get plus a stumping that really only the best keepers make)
Ali 7 - Struggled in the first portions of SA inning (2nd and 4th days) but excellent in second portions.
Woakes 4 - (Harsh but based on being given the new ball, woudl have been higher if he had not been selected as an opening bowler)
Broad 7 - Key wickets in first innings set the standard. His tail end runs also proved vital in Englands first innings.
Finn 7 - His first spell pretty much removed any chance SA had in their second innings.

[GSC]

Just read SA haven't had a 100 partnership this year.

Moeen would be my pick for MotM. Broad, Compton and Taylor also played well Imo.

[guildfordbat]

Appropriate finish with Broad pinning Morkel...

He'd be my MoTM for his decisive first innings bowling - and valuable runs. Though you could make a case for Moeen or Compton.

Thumping win for England . And relatively short last day - important if they lose the toss at Newlands.

For the leftest of left field choices, how about a nomination for Cook? The way he led the team and being symbolic of a near perfect team performance.

[GSC]

Probably a tad light on runs I suspect.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Appropriate finish with Broad pinning Morkel...

He'd be my MoTM for his decisive first innings bowling - and valuable runs. Though you could make a case for Moeen or Compton.

Thumping win for England . And relatively short last day - important if they lose the toss at Newlands.

For the leftest of left field choices, how about a nomination for Cook? The way he led the team and being symbolic of a near perfect team performance.

I seem to remember a Test match back in the late 90's between SA and the WI where MOTM went to the entire SA team for a complete performance. Would have felt reasonably appropriate here IMO as everyone in the England team contributed something to the win.

See Moeen actually got it. Fair enough really...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I like the idea of Woakes in the side instead of Stokes, move the keeper upto 6, Moeen at 7 and Woakes at 8.

My Moeen top wicket taker tip looking good so far!

Yes but how's Ballance doing as top run scorer?

Unfair I know, as that last prediction of your's was for last summer. Great leveller though for all this game!

If they'd dropped the right person Gary B would've stormed the final tests

Great stuff from England, really good win. Best away win since India 2012 or Melbourne 2010?

[GSC]

Have we had an away win since then?

[Stella]

Good win but south africa looked poor, carrying on from their woeful play in India. Good to see most of our players chipped in, thus meaning form is good. Anderson for Woakes, or Stokes, if he's fit.

[alfie]

Yeah fair enough Moeen ...agree it really was a whole team performance.

Re Woakes : yes I can see him as a useful squad member , there may be situations where he will be the appropriate selection : but I think he is going to miss out , correctly , at Newlands. Fast bowlers get injured ; so he will have other chances.

[guildfordbat]

Appropriate finish with Broad pinning Morkel...

He'd be my MoTM for his decisive first innings bowling - and valuable runs. Though you could make a case for Moeen or Compton.

Thumping win for England . And relatively short last day - important if they lose the toss at Newlands.

For the leftest of left field choices, how about a nomination for Cook? The way he led the team and being symbolic of a near perfect team performance.

I seem to remember a Test match back in the late 90's between SA and the WI where MOTM went to the entire SA team for a complete performance. Would have felt reasonably appropriate here IMO as everyone in the England team contributed something to the win.

See Moeen actually got it. Fair enough really...

Hi MfC - I didn't know that about the SA team in the late '90's but do recall Lancs' skipper Jack Abrahams getting MOTM when his side won a Lord's domestic one day final in the early to mid '80s. He was staggered to get the award as he had got a duck and hadn't bowled (he was only an occasional bowler). The decision was made (? by Peter May) for Lancs' all round excellent fielding and teamwork. It attracted a lot of surprise although I considered it fair and understandable at the time.

Here, I'm actually quite happy to see Moeen get it. Did his primary job admirably and consistently through the two SA innings. Not only 7 match wickets but also a low economy rate (under 2.3) in his 51 overs. That last part was particularly valuable and helped keep the seamers fresh.

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