If you're not worried you should be !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 9:32 am

The Government have drawn up a Trade union bill which will mean workers have to opt in rather than opt out to help fund the Labour party.....It's estimated funding will drop from 7.9 million a year to 1.9 million........Considering Labour gets most of it's funding from the Unions it will severely screw the main opposition over (Though they are doing a good job by themselves it has to be said)........added to the fact the Government are busily drawing up boundary changes that will make it nigh impossible for Labour to win a General election anytime soon.......Added to the fact 7/8 of the media are Tory backers including lately it seems the BBC....

They are busy lulling the sleepwalking Brits into a one party state.....

Looking at what has happened over the last five or so years........

* Legal aid cut....So only those that can afford it can seek redress.....

* Public sector pay rises capped at 1%...

* Child poverty increasing.....

* Food bank use gone through the roof..

* Benefits cut for the needy..

* Attempted hammering of low paid workers with tax credit culls...

* Tax breaks for the richest...

* Tribunals only if you've worked for a company two years or more....Yep If you're screwed over by the boss it's tough diddie..

* NHS is up the khyber......

If you don't like the way this Country is heading you have a problem.....

I'm lucky enough to be doing okay !!..........But if you aren't.....

If you're not worried you should be !!!!...

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Post by Guest on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 9:38 am

Public sector pay rises capped at 1%...

Er...I haven't had a pay rise for over three years!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 9:46 am

If it's any consolation to you....I have !!.... thumbsup

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 9:50 am

This bill is probably the most authoritarian and evil piece of legislation that's ever been pushed through in modern Britain. Cameron seeks to squeeze the life out of his opposition while continuing to allow his own fat-cat dodgy donors to give as much as they like.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 9:58 am

THIS>BILL>IS>AMAZING!!!!!

Given ASLEF and RMT have just announced 3 more 24hr screwball thieving bar steward greed based strikes, I only wish the TU bill went further and outlawed their ability to choke the economy like this.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 10:00 am

Pr4wn wrote:This bill is probably the most authoritarian and evil piece of legislation that's ever been pushed through in modern Britain. Cameron seeks to squeeze the life out of his opposition while continuing to allow his own fat-cat dodgy donors to give as much as they like.

I agree....They really are slowly taking a grip on the Country...

Labour really does need to get it's act together.............Seems only the SNP are opposing this lot..

Selling off council homes too aren't they ??.........Great news for slum landlords.......As first time buyers look screwed..


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 10:04 am

And for those suggesting there is scaremogering out there - the real scaremongering is coming from the Left, how the hell does ticking a box (opting in) going to be sooooooo onerous a task that nobody will do it and millions in funding will be 'lost'??

The ACTUAL reality of this, is, Democracy.

At present beligerent bigoted TU dinosaurs use company coffers, filled by members funds, to pay for political lobbying/party support irrespective of whether the members actually support the same.

That's not democratic and it's complete politburo stuff - forced to be a member to keep your job, forced to pay money to stay a member, no choice on how that money is spent or whether it reflects your interests or opinions.

If members DO want their money spent that way, they tick the box, simple.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 10:07 am

I bet Brits have never had it so good......

It's all the left's fault no doubt......blah diddee blah...

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 11:33 am

It's a simple attempt by Cameron to squeeze the life out of his opposition. It's not democracy at all.

Toppy, your arguments about Unions (democratically-run institutions, by the way, with elected leaders) could easily be extended to large corporates (obviously non-democratic) and wealthy private donors. Cameron is perfectly happy to keep the dodgy private money flowing in with no regulation whatsoever. Money from those that lobby, of course, they don't donate out of the kindness of their hearts.

Paint the unions however you want but all they're trying to do is use the law and their rights to secure better pay and working conditions for their members.

This bill is pure evil. There's no other way to describe it.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:52 pm

Pr4wn wrote:It's a simple attempt by Cameron to squeeze the life out of his opposition. It's not democracy at all.

Toppy, your arguments about Unions (democratically-run institutions, by the way, with elected leaders) could easily be extended to large corporates (obviously non-democratic) and wealthy private donors. Cameron is perfectly happy to keep the dodgy private money flowing in with no regulation whatsoever. Money from those that lobby, of course, they don't donate out of the kindness of their hearts.

Paint the unions however you want but all they're trying to do is use the law and their rights to secure better pay and working conditions for their members.

This bill is pure evil. There's no other way to describe it.

Prawn, the arguments couldn't be extended, in terms of the democracy angle I posted. Wealthy private donors do what they what with their own money and in their own self-interest (maybe some altruism, but not a primary or major motivator). So that's a total red herring.

And the same doesn't extend to corporates either - I don't pay a subscription to be employed by my company. Nobody does that I've heard of. If companies lobby then they are doing that with company capital and are doing so in the interests of the company. That capital has two basic sources - debt (banks) or equity (shareholder). Both of whom have a shared interest in the continued prosperity of the company, the latter of whom specifically is interested in anything that drives profits. Therefore if some of its money is used to lobby/support a government in a way that will improve the prospects of the the company, it's support for such spending is implicit.

What this comes back to, which you and your cronies hate and will never accept, is the simple fact that providing Unions genuinely represent their members' interests (which is exactly what they are meant to do) then the effect on funding will be absolutely nil (save for a small margin) as every member will 'opt in'.

And let's not prat around with 'working conditions'. Strikes are about one thing - money. Pay pay pay pay pay. Ergo - blackmail. They are a crude archaic tool mostly used against the interest of the public therefore causing more harm than good to society. The current junior doctor's strike is about the only example in at least a decade which I can think of that has any real moral currency.


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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:58 pm

I'm not even going to bother responding. I'm done with this section.

Sorry.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:12 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:...The current junior doctor's strike is about the only example in at least a decade which I can think of that has any real moral currency.

Says whom? I'm pretty sure that what all aspiring doctors wrote in their Personal Statements while trying to get into medical school isn't commensurate with this behaviour. It has no more moral currency than many other strikes and less than many given the potential health effects on patients.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:13 pm

Pr4wn wrote:I'm not even going to bother responding. I'm done with this section.

Sorry.
With the greatest of respect, that's pretty lame.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:01 pm

The right to strike should be a fundamental right in any civilized Country...

I see stopping that is on the agenda too...

Fancy.

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Post by Guest on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If it's any consolation to you....I have !!.... thumbsup
It isn't...screw you TRUSSY!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:46 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:...The current junior doctor's strike is about the only example in at least a decade which I can think of that has any real moral currency.

Says whom? I'm pretty sure that what all aspiring doctors wrote in their Personal Statements while trying to get into medical school isn't commensurate with this behaviour. It has no more moral currency than many other strikes and less than many given the potential health effects on patients.

You think being forced to work longer hours, in a job where you're their to focus on saving people's lives, or take a pay cut, having spent 7 years studying and working and being in the elite of your academic cohort, is the same as a unqualified uneducated numpty on £50K pa+ demanding more money and inflation busting pay INCREASES? Or, may favourite RMT strike, one of the few not about blackmailing more pay - striking because one of your colleagues got fired for REPEATEDLY turning up drunk??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:57 pm

Rather have a fit doctor than a tired one looking after my family...

Ipsos mori poll..

66 percent support the junior doctors..
16 percent disagree..
18 percent unsure..

Glad to say public opinion is on my side of the argument..

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Post by Guest on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:08 pm

Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

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Post by seanmichaels on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:14 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

On the plus side it gives jumpers more of an opportunity.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:16 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

Been a while since I saw...American werewolf in London..

Too long..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:55 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

Shift patterns and hours worked unchanged. So this is baloney.

Tube drivers would be in just as fit a state for night tubes. It's just about money, and them being scum.

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Post by Guest on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:57 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

Shift patterns and hours worked unchanged.  So this is baloney.

Tube drivers would be in just as fit a state for night tubes.  It's just about money, and them being scum.
Most shift workers end up being frigged with disorientation...not too bad at ASDA but on the trains it's probably worse. 4am is disaster time.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:57 pm

Plus chuck in a few tiny tech innovations, such as automatic stopping in stations, and the fact tube drivers do as close to f*** all as it is anyway, and it becomes even more of a moot point.

Simple fact is tube lines were being built for driverless trains 50+ years ago and we'd all be a damned site better off if they were allowed to become as such.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:58 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

Shift patterns and hours worked unchanged.  So this is baloney.

Tube drivers would be in just as fit a state for night tubes.  It's just about money, and them being scum.
Most shift workers end up being frigged with disorientation...not too bad at ASDA but on the trains it's probably worse. 4am is disaster time.

Been 24 hours the last 5 years (at least) at NYE - any increase in casualties? No. Essentially there is zero evidence to support this pony scare-mongering argument.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 5:01 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:...The current junior doctor's strike is about the only example in at least a decade which I can think of that has any real moral currency.

Says whom? I'm pretty sure that what all aspiring doctors wrote in their Personal Statements while trying to get into medical school isn't commensurate with this behaviour. It has no more moral currency than many other strikes and less than many given the potential health effects on patients.

You think being forced to work longer hours, in a job where you're their to focus on saving people's lives, or take a pay cut, having spent 7 years studying and working and being in the elite of your academic cohort, is the same as a unqualified uneducated numpty on £50K pa+ demanding more money and inflation busting pay INCREASES? Or, may favourite RMT strike, one of the few not about blackmailing more pay - striking because one of your colleagues got fired for REPEATEDLY turning up drunk??
A knee-jerk response based on historical rose-tinted specs re. the medical profession. I'm not saying they don't have any gripes (pretty much the same as most striking workforces I'm sure) but you're getting your info from where exactly? You know even less about the veracity of the issues being discussed than the doctors and too many of them know only what their Union tells them. By all means don't believe what the Government line is but don't go all starry-eyed over what the BMA says just because it's the BMA. The doctors have been political for as long as they've existed.

If they don't want to work more than 48-hour weeks, no-one can force them:

http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/need-to-know/european-working-time-directive

If it's so bad, they could at least work-to-rule instead of f*cking up the care of so many patients and putting them at risk.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Rather have a fit doctor than a tired one looking after my family...

Ipsos mori poll..

66 percent support the junior doctors (simply because it's anti-Government)..
16 percent disagree..
18 percent unsure..

Glad to say public opinion is on my side of the argument..
Corrected one bit.
Also, a missing stat: 95% of the public haven't a clue what the issues are or the truth of what's going on.

DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them
No idea why the Tube isn't 100% automated. Then again, that would need IT and that's always an over-priced f-up.

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

Shift patterns and hours worked unchanged.  So this is baloney.

Tube drivers would be in just as fit a state for night tubes.  It's just about money, and them being scum.
Now you really are showing your class bias. Doctors complaining about 'safety' = good for them. Train drivers complaining about 'safety' = scum! picard
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 5:22 pm

Can we not slum it by stereotyping people in certain vocations as scum..

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 5:24 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:...The current junior doctor's strike is about the only example in at least a decade which I can think of that has any real moral currency.

Says whom? I'm pretty sure that what all aspiring doctors wrote in their Personal Statements while trying to get into medical school isn't commensurate with this behaviour. It has no more moral currency than many other strikes and less than many given the potential health effects on patients.

You think being forced to work longer hours, in a job where you're their to focus on saving people's lives, or take a pay cut, having spent 7 years studying and working and being in the elite of your academic cohort, is the same as a unqualified uneducated numpty on £50K pa+ demanding more money and inflation busting pay INCREASES? Or, may favourite RMT strike, one of the few not about blackmailing more pay - striking because one of your colleagues got fired for REPEATEDLY turning up drunk??
From the BMA's own web site:

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/ewtd

In other words, get the **** back to work.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 5:28 pm

Well fancy that..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 6:04 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:...The current junior doctor's strike is about the only example in at least a decade which I can think of that has any real moral currency.

Says whom? I'm pretty sure that what all aspiring doctors wrote in their Personal Statements while trying to get into medical school isn't commensurate with this behaviour. It has no more moral currency than many other strikes and less than many given the potential health effects on patients.

You think being forced to work longer hours, in a job where you're their to focus on saving people's lives, or take a pay cut, having spent 7 years studying and working and being in the elite of your academic cohort, is the same as a unqualified uneducated numpty on £50K pa+ demanding more money and inflation busting pay INCREASES? Or, may favourite RMT strike, one of the few not about blackmailing more pay - striking because one of your colleagues got fired for REPEATEDLY turning up drunk??
A knee-jerk response based on historical rose-tinted specs re. the medical profession. I'm not saying they don't have any gripes (pretty much the same as most striking workforces I'm sure) but you're getting your info from where exactly? You know even less about the veracity of the issues being discussed than the doctors and too many of them know only what their Union tells them. By all means don't believe what the Government line is but don't go all starry-eyed over what the BMA says just because it's the BMA. The doctors have been political for as long as they've existed.

If they don't want to work more than 48-hour weeks, no-one can force them:

http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/need-to-know/european-working-time-directive

If it's so bad, they could at least work-to-rule instead of f*cking up the care of so many patients and putting them at risk.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Rather have a fit doctor than a tired one looking after my family...

Ipsos mori poll..

66 percent support the junior doctors (simply because it's anti-Government)..
16 percent disagree..
18 percent unsure..

Glad to say public opinion is on my side of the argument..
Corrected one bit.
Also, a missing stat: 95% of the public haven't a clue what the issues are or the truth of what's going on.

DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them
No idea why the Tube isn't 100% automated. Then again, that would need IT and that's always an over-priced f-up.

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Would have a fit and rested doctor and a fit and rested train driver if I'm honest. Plans to introduce all night tube services have the making of a disaster written all over them

Shift patterns and hours worked unchanged.  So this is baloney.

Tube drivers would be in just as fit a state for night tubes.  It's just about money, and them being scum.
Now you really are showing your class bias. Doctors complaining about 'safety' = good for them. Train drivers complaining about 'safety' = scum! picard

I've already set out how the 'safety' equivalency is absolute bunkum. Total red herring. As is all other comparison to the two situations.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 8:38 pm

On another note. Just noticed that the BMA plan to call a strike on Feb 10th with no emergency cover. Wonder how they'll all sleep at night if they go ahead with that?
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Post by Ent on Wed 13 Jan 2016, 12:27 am

Easy as it will be covered by consultants - they've had months to plan around it.

Ewtd is averaged over 6 months so you can (and regularly do) exceed 48 hour weeks.

Work to rule would be absolutely devastating for patient care and safety, you'd have to ignore sick people to go home on time or take your breaks- one of the most mental suggestions I've ever heard.

Quite franky we as a nation should be proud of the action taken, keeping quiet and just getting on with things is how 100s of people died at mid Staffordshire hospital. The Francis report called for this type of thing.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 13 Jan 2016, 10:00 am

Good article in the Economist:

Blame the British public for the junior doctors’ strike wrote:AT EIGHT this morning junior doctors in England began a 24-hour strike during which they are providing only emergency cover, equivalent to that provided on Christmas Day. Patients have been advised to avoid hospitals if possible, referring themselves to local clinics and pharmacists instead. The first industrial action by doctors for four decades, the strike has meant the cancellation of some 4,000 operations.

The medics (some of whom, despite the term “junior”, are actually quite senior) are angry at Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, over his proposal for a new contract, which he has threatened to impose on them if no agreement is reached. Picket lines are due to go up at hospitals again on January 26th and in February (when a total walkout is planned leaving consultants, nurses and temporary staff alone to treat emergencies). The details of the dispute are fiddly, concerning working hours, basic and top-up rates of pay and working-time rules. But there are two, quite straightforward, main disagreements.

The first is about how much the NHS should bear down on hospitals about doctors’ working time. After withdrawing from negotiations last summer the BMA, their trade union, returned to the table in December. The result was a memorandum of understanding in which the BMA, the Department for Health and NHS Employers agreed on a series of rules on the length of shifts, the frequency of long shifts and rest time between shifts, and on the creation of an independent “guardian” role responsible for policing the enforcement of these rules at each NHS trust. But the BMA contends that this is not enough; that in a hectic hospital environment it can be too easy for doctors to have to work dangerously long hours, especially given the withdrawal of certain penalties for hospitals that exceed these limits. It argues that the rules should go farther (for example, it wants consecutive long shifts to be capped at three rather than the offered five) and wants the guardian role to have more teeth.

The second is about whether work in evenings and on weekends should command a higher value than that between 7.00 and 19.00, Monday to Friday. If you think the answer to that is “no”, then it is hard to disagree with Mr Hunt when he claims his reforms will leave 99% of junior doctors better, or no worse, paid than they are now. If “yes”, then the conclusion is less certain: though the basic pay for doctors will rise, partly to compensate for the end of automatic increments for seniority, top-up pay for unsocial hours will no longer be paid for Saturdays or weekday evenings between 19.00 and 22.00. Moreover, as this will make it cheaper for hospitals to roster doctors during these hours, more will be working time for which they were previously paid a premium. If the value of their work in this time is indeed greater than during the “normal” working week, it is fair to say that more than 1% will probably lose out.

That the dispute is hard to arbitrate reflects the fact that the factors in contention—the number of hours a doctor can safely work and the stringencies needed to enforce them; the value of time at different points in the day and week—all contain a large qualitative component (though both sides have reams of quantitative studies saying different things). The health service is fleshy and human. Like the body, it runs on a series of delicate balances, not binary switches. Hence the ambiguities and mutual incomprehension that swirl around the dispute and that have made a resolution, thus far, impossible.

As such, blame for the strike is quite diffuse. Mr Hunt’s goal of a seven-day NHS is laudable but he took far too long to realise that the way he was presenting it implied that doctors were not working hard enough. Already at breaking point (many British junior doctors are leaving for the Australian and New Zealand health systems), lots of medics immediately turned against him. Over-simplifying clinical research underlying the case for the reform, documenting higher death rates in the system on weekends, was a similarly unforced error. Thus seeds of resentment were sown that have been nurtured perhaps too enthusiastically by the leadership of the BMA, whose rallies resonate to unfounded claims that Mr Hunt wants to privatise the NHS and to juvenile abuse of a health secretary who—the doctors neglect to acknowledge—has a manifesto commitment to fulfil. The doctors are within their rights to strike (daily tolerating punishing hours and thankless conditions at an hourly pay rate that would insult many in less skilled jobs), yet their decision to do so seems odd after talks at which, even the BMA conceded, progress was made. That the rhetoric surrounding the strike suggests that the very existence of the NHS is at stake, and not just the exact pay and protections of a portion of its staff, perhaps concedes that the details of the matter do not, unembellished, match the scale of the action.

Still, it is hard not to sympathise somewhat with both sides. Doctors have a hard lot and deserve better pay and conditions, not a questionable promise of razor-thin improvements. Mr Hunt, far from wanting to kill off the NHS, rightly intuits that the system only has a future for as long as taxpayers are willing to fund it—and is therefore concentrating heavily on improving patient experiences (reportedly inspired by Eric Topol’s reformist “The Patient Will See You Now” on the future of medicine).

No, if there is one party in the Hunt-doctors dispute that deserves most criticism, it is the British public. This is the electorate that notionally adores the NHS, propels a mushy song by health workers to the top of the Christmas charts, happily accepts the left’s bogus insinuations that the only alternative is an American-style private health-care model, equally happily votes for Tory politicians promising to expand services to weekends and yet, despite all this, shows remarkably little willingness to pay more in tax towards what remains a relatively cheap system. If the BMA really wanted to change things, it would seek to disprove this argument by polling voters to establish where spending should be cut, or taxes raised, to pay for the seven-day NHS for which they have voted.

Otherwise, to remain viable at a time when the average citizen is getting wider and wrinklier, "our NHS" must tighten its belt by £30 billion by 2020, less than a third of which will be met by additional spending. It is in this context that Mr Hunt is trying to expand services to evenings and weekends. If he is straining to convince doctors that they should earn the same for working at these times as during normal hours, it is because he has no pot of cash with which to smooth the process. So pity the well-meaning health secretary, pity the hard-working doctors—and blame the sentimental but hypocritical British public.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 13 Jan 2016, 5:10 pm

Ent wrote:Easy as it will be covered by consultants - they've had months to plan around it.

Ewtd is averaged over 6 months so you can (and regularly do) exceed 48 hour weeks.

Work to rule would be absolutely devastating for patient care and safety, you'd have to ignore sick people to go home on time or take your breaks- one of the most mental suggestions I've ever heard.

Quite franky we as a nation should be proud of the action taken, keeping quiet and just getting on with things is how 100s of people died at mid Staffordshire hospital. The Francis report called for this type of thing.
Excellent! Glad to have you commenting.

Educate me on what's really going on then. What's a typical working week for a foundation doc (be honest)? What, exactly, is being proposed that would have a negative effect on safety? Is there really nothing else that can be done other than put patient safety at risk? Is it really nothing to do with pay?
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 13 Jan 2016, 6:11 pm

Interesting polling re public support for the strike. Overwhelming support with doctors agreeing to provide emergency care.

Removal of emergency support, as the BMA are suggesting for next time, and public support drops like a stone....

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Post by Ent on Wed 13 Jan 2016, 6:16 pm

Actually the time after that full withdrawal of labour, emergency cover will be provided as normal just by the consultant body.

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Post by Ent on Wed 13 Jan 2016, 6:29 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Ent wrote:Easy as it will be covered by consultants - they've had months to plan around it.

Ewtd is averaged over 6 months so you can (and regularly do) exceed 48 hour weeks.

Work to rule would be absolutely devastating for patient care and safety, you'd have to ignore sick people to go home on time or take your breaks- one of the most mental suggestions I've ever heard.

Quite franky we as a nation should be proud of the action taken, keeping quiet and just getting on with things is how 100s of people died at mid Staffordshire hospital. The Francis report called for this type of thing.
Excellent! Glad to have you commenting.

Educate me on what's really going on then. What's a typical working week for a foundation doc (be honest)? What, exactly, is being proposed that would have a negative effect on safety? Is there really nothing else that can be done other than put patient safety at risk? Is it really nothing to do with pay?

Depends on exactly what the job is, not all juniors are foundation doctors either. There are 48000 thousand junior doctors within the NHS so I can't really outline everyone's week.

Main risks to patient safety are removal of safe guards with regards to working hours and risk of brain drain.

Industrial action doesn't put patient safety at risk.

Would have been a strike a long time ago if it was about pay, been a pay freeze for something like 6 years in NHS. Proposed restructuring reduces gross pay by up to 30%, take home even more.

Lots of other contentious points within.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 14 Jan 2016, 1:34 pm

Ent wrote:Depends on exactly what the job is, not all juniors are foundation doctors either. There are 48000 thousand junior doctors within the NHS so I can't really outline everyone's week.

Main risks to patient safety are removal of safe guards with regards to working hours and risk of brain drain.

Industrial action doesn't put patient safety at risk.

Would have been a strike a long time ago if it was about pay, been  a pay freeze for something like 6 years in NHS. Proposed restructuring reduces gross pay by up to 30%, take home even more.

Lots of other contentious points within.
I'm not sure I see how having ~62% of junior docs out on strike can't put patients at risk. I would think that's a default outcome. The level of increased risk might be less that I'd imagine though I guess.

Your 30% gross pay deduction seems a little at odds with what Mr. Hunt is claiming - why is there such a disparity?
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Post by Ent on Thu 14 Jan 2016, 10:51 pm

Because he's a liar.

Consultants can cover all work safely for short periods when warned in advance, if anything it's safer.

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Post by Ent on Thu 14 Jan 2016, 11:37 pm

Sums on pay;

http://www.bishley.com/junior-contract/wp-content/uploads/1970/01/junior-contract-modelling-v1.1-slides.pdf

Another overlooked issue is the future repercussions. Once doctors evenings and Saturdays are rebranded as normal working hours agenda for change will be next.

Agenda for change is the system by which 1 million NHS employees are paid, that is where the real saving comes in.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 15 Jan 2016, 9:09 am

Saturdays should be classed as normal working hours, although I'd prefer to say working X number of hours is normal, anything over is extra pay.

When i'm at work, i'm on call 24/7 for 4 months I don't get extra and haven't had any decent pay rise for god knows how many years, in fact our whole grading has just been restructured and most people get a pay drop.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 15 Jan 2016, 9:42 am

Ent wrote:Sums on pay;

http://www.bishley.com/junior-contract/wp-content/uploads/1970/01/junior-contract-modelling-v1.1-slides.pdf

Another overlooked issue is the future repercussions. Once doctors evenings and Saturdays are rebranded as normal working hours agenda for change will be next.

Agenda for change is the system by which 1 million NHS employees are paid, that is where the real saving comes in.
Thanks for the link - that's exactly what I was after. Does seem harsh, although that article says nothing about safety, which is the major media tag line the BMA etc put out. I guess that's politics though. I'm still not sure I agree, at all, with refusing to cover ED/critical care later in February - what additional point is being made?
That Economist article posted earlier probably makes a good point in that we, the public, should be paying more but I guess that's deemed to be politically untenable. I wouldn't mind a good national discussion over that and would be reasonably happy with some ring-fenced increases to what I put in, always assuming additional monies weren't simply trousered by doctors as increased pay and pensions.
They could also look at things such as free prescriptions - I was gobsmacked at the % that don't pay. For example, my wife, who's diabetic, gets free prescriptions for everything - not just diabetes-related stuff, such as insulin. Even she thinks that's bonkers. I'm sure there's a lot more that could be looked at as well.
Maybe this is the time for a complete re-think of a lot of things that're NHS-related because if it isn't, the service will be gone in 10-20 years if the doctors I know well are to be believed....
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Post by Ent on Fri 15 Jan 2016, 11:45 am

It's a pay calculator, it's linked from other statements from various groups re safety.

Emergency care will be fine, however in order to provide consultant cover elective work will have to be rescheduled.

More money is needed and it all can't come from efficiency savings. The NHS is a behemoth, worlds 4th biggest employer - never going to 100% efficient despite savings being available. Uk has one of the best most efficient health care services in the world but one of the lowest no of Doctors per head of population.

More gov money and increasing the private element under strict provisions is required. Demoralising staff and causing a brain drain isn't.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 12:37 pm

Ent wrote:Because he's a liar.

Consultants can cover all work safely for short periods when warned in advance, if anything it's safer.

Which would suggest an oversupply in junior doctors, if anything.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 12:38 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Ent wrote:Because he's a liar.

Consultants can cover all work safely for short periods when warned in advance, if anything it's safer.

Which would suggest an oversupply in junior doctors, if anything.

Ridiculous statement.

Consultants that would have been working the routine operations that were postponed. Very simple.

But go ahead, twist it to fit your ridiculous narrative, if you like.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 12:43 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Ent wrote:Because he's a liar.

Consultants can cover all work safely for short periods when warned in advance, if anything it's safer.

Which would suggest an oversupply in junior doctors, if anything.

Ridiculous statement.

Consultants that would have been working the routine operations that were postponed. Very simple.

But go ahead, twist it to fit your ridiculous narrative, if you like.

Don't get wound up.......

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 12:44 pm

It's not my narrative. I was marginally in support of the strike, if you cared to actually read the thread.

It was a critique of the rhetoric being farmed out by the Drs/BMA side.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 12:54 pm

Rhetoric which I clearly explained above. There isn't an over-supply of junior doctors.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 1:52 pm

It still points to the fact that, if the strike has sooooooo little impact, the neccessity of those junior doctors is undermined.

Look at the difference when there's a tube driver strike.

My actual inference, is that the Drs are important and seriously needed and that the impact of their strike (especially the BMA mooted total down-tools) is greater than admitted to.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 1:57 pm

Right = Good..

Left = Bad.

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Post by Ent on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 11:35 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:It still points to the fact that, if the strike has sooooooo little impact, the neccessity of those junior doctors is undermined.  

Look at the difference when there's a tube driver strike.

My actual inference, is that the Drs are important and seriously needed and that the impact of their strike (especially the BMA mooted total down-tools) is greater than admitted to.


The tube drivers unions or tfl make no provisions for a strike, the NHS does as the impact would have slightly dofferent consequences as opposed to being late or not getting to work.

Juniors are in training, they are needed to be the consultants of the future. They provide a lot of service in the NHS compared to other health care systems.

The strikes have impact, just not on safety for the acutely unwell.

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