This Weekend's Citings

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This Weekend's Citings

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 6:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.epcrugby.com/news/32311.php#.Vp0q9vmLTcs wrote:

Viktor Kolelishvili (ASM Clermont Auvergne)

EPCR has received a citing complaint against the ASM Clermont Auvergne flanker, Viktor Kolelishvili (No 7), following the European Rugby Champions Cup Round 5 match against the Ospreys at Liberty Stadium on Friday, 15 January 2016.

Kolelishvili pushed the match referee, Wayne Barnes (England), in the 17th minute of the match in contravention of Law 10.4 (m).

The complaint was made by the match Citing Commissioner, Mike Rafter (England)

David Martin (Ireland) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer for the disciplinary hearing which will take place in Paris on Tuesday, 19 January 2016.

Law 10.4 (m) Physical abuse of match officials
Under World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (m), Physical abuse of a match official, carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 24 weeks; Mid-Range: 48 weeks; Top End: 96+ weeks to life


Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors)

EPCR has received a citing complaint against the Glasgow Warriors flanker, Tim Swinson (No 19), following the European Rugby Champions Cup Round 5 match against Northampton Saints at Franklin's Gardens on Sunday, 17 January 2016.

Swinson is alleged to have punched the Northampton Saints replacement hooker, Mikey Haywood (No 16), in the 74th minute of the match in contravention of Law 10.4 (a). Swinson was shown a yellow card for the incident by match referee, Romain Poite (France).

The complaint was made by the match Citing Commissioner, Jeff Mark (Wales).

Simon Thomas (Wales) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer for the disciplinary hearing which will take place in London on Wednesday (20 January 2016).

Law 10.4 (a) Striking with a hand, arm or fist
Under World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (a), Striking with a hand, arm or fist, carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-Range: 5 weeks; Top End: 8 to 52 weeks.


Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors)

EPCR has received a citing complaint against the Glasgow Warriors flanker, Ryan Wilson (No 6), following the European Rugby Champions Cup Round 5 match against Northampton Saints at Franklin's Gardens on Sunday, 17 January 2016.

Wilson is alleged to have grabbed the testicles of the Northampton Saints scrum half, Lee Dickson (No 9), in the 25th minute of the match in contravention of Law 10.4 (m).

The complaint was made by the match Citing Commissioner, Jeff Mark (Wales).

Simon Thomas (Wales) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer for the disciplinary hearing which will take place in London on Wednesday 20 January 2016.

Law 10.4 (m) Testicle grabbing or twisting or squeezing
Under World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (m), Testicle grabbing or twisting or squeezing carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 12 weeks; Mid-Range: 18 weeks; Top End: 24+ to 208 weeks.

Chris Ashton (Saracens)

EPCR has received a citing complaint against the Saracens wing, Chris Ashton (No 14), following the European Rugby Champions Cup Round 5 match against Ulster Rugby on Saturday, 16 January 2016.

Ashton is alleged to have made contact with the eye(s) and/or eye area of the Ulster centre, Luke Marshall (No 13), in the 16th minute of the match in contravention of Law 10.4 (m).

The complaint was by the match Citing Commissioner, Yves Thieffine (France).

Jean-Noel Couraud (France) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer for the disciplinary hearing which will take place in London on Wednesday 20 January 2016.

Law 10.4 (m) Contact with the eye(s) and/or eye area
Under World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (m), Contact with the eye(s) and/or eye area carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 12 weeks; Mid-Range: 18 weeks; Top End: 24 to 208 weeks.


T Rhys Thomas (Newport Gwent Dragons)

EPCR has received a citing complaint against the Newport Gwent Dragons replacement hooker, T Rhys Thomas (No 16), following the European Rugby Challenge Cup Round 5 match against Castres Olympique on Friday, 15 January 2016.

Rhys Thomas is alleged to have bitten the Castres Olympique back row, Thomas Caballero (No 6), in the 67th minute of the match in contravention of Law 10.4 (m).

The complaint was made by match Citing Commissioner, Dave Guyan (England).

Rod McKenzie (Scotland) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer for the disciplinary hearing which will take place in London on Wednesday 20 January 2016.

Law 10.4 (m) Biting
Under World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (m), Biting, carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 12 weeks; Mid-Range: 18 weeks; Top End: 24+ to 208 weeks.


Red card

Alexandre Bias (Castres Olympique)

The Castres Olympique replacement second row, Alexandre Bias (No 19), was issued with a red card during the European Rugby Challenge Cup, Round 5 match against the Newport Gwent Dragons on Friday, 15 January 2016.

Bias was sent off by referee, Peter Fizgibbon (Ireland), in the 57th minute of the match for an alleged dangerous tackle on the Newport Gwent Dragons player, Phil Price (No 1), in contravention of Law 10.4 (e).

David Martin (Ireland) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer for the disciplinary hearing which will take place in Paris on Tuesday, 19 January 2016.

Law 10.4 (e) Dangerous tackling of an opponent
Under World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (e), Dangerous tackling of an Opponent, carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-Range: 6 weeks; Top End: 10 to 52 weeks.

Notes

(i) Red Cards
a) The case of any player sent off in European Rugby Champions Cup and Challenge Cup games shall be adjudicated by an independent Judicial Officer as soon as is practicable.
b) Until the hearing the player is ineligible to play in any tournament.

(ii) Citing Commissioner
a) Citing Commissioners are appointed by EPCR for all European Rugby Champions Cup and all televised Challenge Cup matches and shall be entitled to cite a player for any act or acts of Foul Play that in the Citing Commissioner's opinion warranted a red card.
b) For such matches, clubs will not have the power to cite a player but may refer incidents to the Citing Commissioner within 26 hours of the start of the match.
c) The Citing Commissioner will have 50 hours from the start of the match to make a citing. In certain circumstances this deadline can be extended.
d) The tournament Disciplinary Officer may forward the submitted citing to a Citing Officer to determine whether there are sufficient grounds for the citing to progress.
e) The Disciplinary Officer will then bring a charge against the cited player.

(iii) Disciplinary Hearing
a) The independent Judicial Officer is chosen by the chairman of the independent Disciplinary Panel, Professor Lorne Crerar.
b) EPCR's Disciplinary Officer presents the case against the player.
c) If a decision is upheld, the independent Judicial Officer will be required to consider the appropriate sanction. Under World Rugby's sanctioning regime, which EPCR is obliged to follow, the Judicial Officer will first assess the seriousness of the player's actions and determine which of the three stipulated entry points (lower end, mid range and top end) is the most appropriate.
d) The Judicial Officer will determine the appropriate entry point based on his/her assessment of a number of particular characteristics of the player's actions, including whether or not they were intentional, whether or not they caused any injuries and whether or not they had any effect on the relevant match.
e) After deciding the entry point, the Judicial Officer will then consider whether the suspension should be increased from the entry point to take account of certain specified aggravating factors, such as a poor disciplinary record or the need for deterrence, and/or decreased from the entry point to take account of certain specified mitigating actions, such as a guilty plea, a good disciplinary record, the player's conduct at the hearing and expressions of remorse.
d) A suspension is a blanket ban from playing rugby union anywhere in the world.
e) Both parties to the hearing (EPCR and the player) have the right to appeal decisions of the independent Disciplinary Hearing. Appeals must be lodged within three (3) working days of receiving the full written decision of the Judicial Officer.
f) The full written decision of the Judicial Officer will be available on www.epcrugby.com/discipline/news.php when the disciplinary process is complete.
g) For World Rugby's Sanctions for Foul Play, found at Appendix 1 to World Rugby Regulation 17, please go to www.worldrugby.org

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Scottrf on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 11:37 am

Well any incidents comparable to the rugby ones? I just find the constant digs at football to be a bit petty.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:00 pm

wayne wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:You cannot intentionally get in any way physical with a referee and that basic and simple area of respect must be maintained at all costs which is why Kolelishvili got such a harsh ban. If we allow respect to be chipped away even slightly eventually we end up with players in refs faces just like soccer so we can never allow any erosion of values.
I agree with you Notch in that the act itself didn't warrant the player being sent off as it wasn't reckless and didn't endanger anyone. The citing commission has sent out a very clear and strong message for a change in protection of the sport's values so bravo to them.

I think that this ban is really harsh, Barnes is an experienced referee but he was standing in a position where he was obstructing the first defender. There are probably better ways for telling the ref to get out of the way, but I think that Barnes caused this problem by obstructing the defence. AWJ has it right get on with the game and keep out of the way of the defence.

I think to send the right message Kolelishvili should get a token one week ban.................and two weeks ban for Barnes!

Absolutely wrong!
You can tell the ref he's blocking you all you want but you cannot get physical with officials. There cannot be any grey areas here, it's very simple, you do not touch an official. Let one player away with it and that would open a can of worms we'd never close.
Leave the abuse of officials to the soccer fraternity, Rugby must be defended from to maintain the mutual respect that proudly keeps our sport the way it is.
You are quite right Pete, I thought it very funny on the highlights show on Sky on Sunday night, that they mentioned that Neil Back agreed with Barnes assessment, considering he did the same thing and got a 6 month ban, he wants standards to slip, I do not.

The Back incident was very different. For starters he claimed he mistook the ref for his opposite number in the melee an confusion at the end of the game (which apparently the panel agreed). The six month ban was given as it was meant to cover the entire summer and start of the following season. Hence the ban handed out to the Clermont flanker is actually in keeping with previous.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:05 pm

Scottrf wrote:Well any incidents comparable to the rugby ones? I just find the constant digs at football to be a bit petty.

I mentioned soccer once or twice (hardly constant digs) in relation to the treatment of officials.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:26 pm

Maybe Kolelishvili should have just waited for play to start and taken the rugby league approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwKrnzXx9xs

If he had done similar, then that would have been fine.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by wayne on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:31 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:You cannot intentionally get in any way physical with a referee and that basic and simple area of respect must be maintained at all costs which is why Kolelishvili got such a harsh ban. If we allow respect to be chipped away even slightly eventually we end up with players in refs faces just like soccer so we can never allow any erosion of values.
I agree with you Notch in that the act itself didn't warrant the player being sent off as it wasn't reckless and didn't endanger anyone. The citing commission has sent out a very clear and strong message for a change in protection of the sport's values so bravo to them.

I think that this ban is really harsh, Barnes is an experienced referee but he was standing in a position where he was obstructing the first defender. There are probably better ways for telling the ref to get out of the way, but I think that Barnes caused this problem by obstructing the defence. AWJ has it right get on with the game and keep out of the way of the defence.

I think to send the right message Kolelishvili should get a token one week ban.................and two weeks ban for Barnes!

Absolutely wrong!
You can tell the ref he's blocking you all you want but you cannot get physical with officials. There cannot be any grey areas here, it's very simple, you do not touch an official. Let one player away with it and that would open a can of worms we'd never close.
Leave the abuse of officials to the soccer fraternity, Rugby must be defended from to maintain the mutual respect that proudly keeps our sport the way it is.
You are quite right Pete, I thought it very funny on the highlights show on Sky on Sunday night, that they mentioned that Neil Back agreed with Barnes assessment, considering he did the same thing and got a 6 month ban, he wants standards to slip, I do not.

The Back incident was very different. For starters he claimed he mistook the ref for his opposite number in the melee an confusion at the end of the game (which apparently the panel agreed). The six month ban was given as it was meant to cover the entire summer and start of the following season. Hence the ban handed out to the Clermont flanker is actually in keeping with previous.
I personally don't give a shoite what Back says, and the panel agreed, if they agreed why was he given a 6 month ban, and to suggest a 6 month ban covers the summer months and starts the following summer is crap, the season ends in late April and begins in early September, so basically 4 months, and what you mean by the last sentence is beyond me.
The man got off lightly, you don't touch an official in an aggressive manner, you just ask him to move.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Notch on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 1:42 pm

Ashton banned for 10 weeks after being found guilty of contact with the eye area. Free to play again on the 28th March. So he will miss the entirety of the Six Nations but be available for the European Quarter-Final.

If the guy who replaces him does particularly well he may just have blown his one chance to resurrect his test career.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Notch on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 1:45 pm

He could appeal but as it stands thats a huge blow to his career you'd think.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 1:56 pm

Not a great start to a great opportunity to kick start your career again.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by HammerofThunor on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:00 pm

If he made contact that sounds reasonable and consistent for reckless, unintentional contact.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:11 pm

Id like to cite Nigel Owens for missing a blatant knock on leading to the last gasp Toulon try & denying Wasps a famous victory.

Worlds best? Nah.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:12 pm

So 10 weeks...Happy with that.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:26 pm

wayne wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:You cannot intentionally get in any way physical with a referee and that basic and simple area of respect must be maintained at all costs which is why Kolelishvili got such a harsh ban. If we allow respect to be chipped away even slightly eventually we end up with players in refs faces just like soccer so we can never allow any erosion of values.
I agree with you Notch in that the act itself didn't warrant the player being sent off as it wasn't reckless and didn't endanger anyone. The citing commission has sent out a very clear and strong message for a change in protection of the sport's values so bravo to them.

I think that this ban is really harsh, Barnes is an experienced referee but he was standing in a position where he was obstructing the first defender. There are probably better ways for telling the ref to get out of the way, but I think that Barnes caused this problem by obstructing the defence. AWJ has it right get on with the game and keep out of the way of the defence.

I think to send the right message Kolelishvili should get a token one week ban.................and two weeks ban for Barnes!

Absolutely wrong!
You can tell the ref he's blocking you all you want but you cannot get physical with officials. There cannot be any grey areas here, it's very simple, you do not touch an official. Let one player away with it and that would open a can of worms we'd never close.
Leave the abuse of officials to the soccer fraternity, Rugby must be defended from to maintain the mutual respect that proudly keeps our sport the way it is.
You are quite right Pete, I thought it very funny on the highlights show on Sky on Sunday night, that they mentioned that Neil Back agreed with Barnes assessment, considering he did the same thing and got a 6 month ban, he wants standards to slip, I do not.

The Back incident was very different. For starters he claimed he mistook the ref for his opposite number in the melee an confusion at the end of the game (which apparently the panel agreed). The six month ban was given as it was meant to cover the entire summer and start of the following season. Hence the ban handed out to the Clermont flanker is actually in keeping with previous.
I personally don't give a shoite what Back says, and the panel agreed, if they agreed why was he given a 6 month ban, and to suggest a 6 month ban covers the summer months and starts the following summer is crap, the season ends in late April and begins in early September, so basically 4 months, and what you mean by the last sentence is beyond me.
The man got off lightly, you don't touch an official in an aggressive manner, you just ask him to move.

By the time you've factored in the summer months when Back wasn't playing he effectively got a ban of similar length to the Clermont flanker. Hence the six month ban is in keeping with previous rulings of pushing the referee and there's been no lightening of the law.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:26 pm

Already players realise that if they block the officials' view in certain situations it can help their set plays. Referees who get close to the action so they have a better view are being 'accidentally' blocked by players or even nudged to shift them farther away.

Deliberately and purposefully pushing a referee cannot be condoned, and Barnes should have issued a yellow as an objective referee. Kolelishvili's lack of knowledge of the Laws is not a mitigating factor and Barnes was wrong to be lenient. The incident undoubtedly affected Barnes positioning, or at least his awareness of it for the rest of the game, when he should have had unfettered attention on the action. It probably also affected his view of the player, because any decision against Kolelishvili becomes subjectivised in the context of the personal contact between them.

Interference with the officials is not allowed in the Laws and Barnes' responsibility to the wider game demanded that he issue a card. Barnes also had a responsibility to the particular game, that despite there being 'no real harm done' the infringement was serious and should have had a material affect on the game, as the yellow subsequently issued would then have been red.

It is frankly unacceptable that a professional player (however green) is allowed to take the field at all if they are so ignorant of the Laws. Barnes got it wrong, but at least Kolelishvili will have some time to learn how to behave himself before taking the field again.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:38 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Id like to cite Nigel Owens for missing a blatant knock on leading to the last gasp Toulon try & denying Wasps a famous victory.

Worlds best? Nah.

I spotted that knock-on but then again I have spotted many, many knock-ons missed by various referees and will continue to spot such knock-ons unless every try is automatically referred to a TMO who will then spend 5 minutes rerunning the footage to find something that may have been missed.

Should it happen? Nah.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by wayne on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 2:59 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
wayne wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:You cannot intentionally get in any way physical with a referee and that basic and simple area of respect must be maintained at all costs which is why Kolelishvili got such a harsh ban. If we allow respect to be chipped away even slightly eventually we end up with players in refs faces just like soccer so we can never allow any erosion of values.
I agree with you Notch in that the act itself didn't warrant the player being sent off as it wasn't reckless and didn't endanger anyone. The citing commission has sent out a very clear and strong message for a change in protection of the sport's values so bravo to them.

I think that this ban is really harsh, Barnes is an experienced referee but he was standing in a position where he was obstructing the first defender. There are probably better ways for telling the ref to get out of the way, but I think that Barnes caused this problem by obstructing the defence. AWJ has it right get on with the game and keep out of the way of the defence.

I think to send the right message Kolelishvili should get a token one week ban.................and two weeks ban for Barnes!

Absolutely wrong!
You can tell the ref he's blocking you all you want but you cannot get physical with officials. There cannot be any grey areas here, it's very simple, you do not touch an official. Let one player away with it and that would open a can of worms we'd never close.
Leave the abuse of officials to the soccer fraternity, Rugby must be defended from to maintain the mutual respect that proudly keeps our sport the way it is.
You are quite right Pete, I thought it very funny on the highlights show on Sky on Sunday night, that they mentioned that Neil Back agreed with Barnes assessment, considering he did the same thing and got a 6 month ban, he wants standards to slip, I do not.

The Back incident was very different. For starters he claimed he mistook the ref for his opposite number in the melee an confusion at the end of the game (which apparently the panel agreed). The six month ban was given as it was meant to cover the entire summer and start of the following season. Hence the ban handed out to the Clermont flanker is actually in keeping with previous.
I personally don't give a shoite what Back says, and the panel agreed, if they agreed why was he given a 6 month ban, and to suggest a 6 month ban covers the summer months and starts the following summer is crap, the season ends in late April and begins in early September, so basically 4 months, and what you mean by the last sentence is beyond me.
The man got off lightly, you don't touch an official in an aggressive manner, you just ask him to move.

By the time you've factored in the summer months when Back wasn't playing he effectively got a ban of similar length to the Clermont flanker. Hence the six month ban is in keeping with previous rulings of pushing the referee and there's been no lightening of the law.
Percy Montgomery also got 6 months for pushing a touch judge, how is that in keeping with previous and future rulings

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 5:38 pm

Perfectly given Montgomery was red carded in May and suspended across the summer in a similar way to Back.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 5:46 pm

Thomas' case dismissed and Swinson given one week ban.

Just Wilson now?

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by luvtotup on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 6:17 pm

Wilson- case dismissed, free to play.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 6:37 pm

luvtotup wrote:Wilson- case dismissed, free to play.
hmm


As the Judicial Officer was not satisfied to the required standard that the act of foul play as alleged had been committed, the citing complaint was dismissed and Wilson is therefore free to play.

Feels like differing standards of proof required by different Judicial Officers.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 8:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
luvtotup wrote:Wilson- case dismissed, free to play.
hmm


As the Judicial Officer was not satisfied to the required standard that the act of foul play as alleged had been committed, the citing complaint was dismissed and Wilson is therefore free to play.

Feels like differing standards of proof required by different Judicial Officers.
The Swinson ban is the most outrageous. He punched a player in the face who was in a maul and unable to defend himself.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by VinceWLB on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 9:33 pm

Wilson and Thomas very very lucky boys as it's obvious what happened despite the clear evidence.

Swinson should have gotten more for a clear punch, it's not like Glasgow would have missed him and at least we would have been safe from seeing him in a Scottish shirt.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by TJ on Wed 20 Jan 2016, 10:18 pm

Swinson should have got more. I hope he is dropped by Glasgow and Scotland.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Heaf on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 1:15 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Id like to cite Nigel Owens for missing a blatant knock on leading to the last gasp Toulon try & denying Wasps a famous victory.

Worlds best? Nah.

I spotted that knock-on but then again I have spotted many, many knock-ons missed by various referees and will continue to spot such knock-ons unless every try is automatically referred to a TMO who will then spend 5 minutes rerunning the footage to find something that may have been missed.

Should it happen? Nah.
But he also missed an obvious high tackle and possible YC ...

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 7:38 am

Heaf wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Id like to cite Nigel Owens for missing a blatant knock on leading to the last gasp Toulon try & denying Wasps a famous victory.

Worlds best? Nah.

I spotted that knock-on but then again I have spotted many, many knock-ons missed by various referees and will continue to spot such knock-ons unless every try is automatically referred to a TMO who will then spend 5 minutes rerunning the footage to find something that may have been missed.

Should it happen? Nah.
But he also missed an obvious high tackle and possible YC ...

Right in front of his assistant. You can understand Owens missing that but his assistant should have helped him out.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:56 am

VinceWLB wrote:Wilson and Thomas very very lucky boys as it's obvious what happened despite the clear evidence.

Swinson should have gotten more for a clear punch, it's not like Glasgow would have missed him and at least we would have been safe from seeing him in a Scottish shirt.

How can you say definitively that TRT bit that Castres player? You must have some conclusive evidence

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 1:03 pm

Ashton puts his hand round the face, no intent and no damage just stupid - 8 weeks. I didn't realise stupidity was a punishable offence.

Swinton lands a deliberate punch on a player unable to defend himself that causes his eye to swell up like a balloon and is potentially more dangerous as the head was not in a position to move backwards and therefore had to absorb the full force of the punch and he gets one week, obviously stupidity and viciousness are not punishable offences as he didn't get punished for either.

Hartley touches his head to another player, no hurt, no damage and in slow motion and gets 8 weeks, what would he have got if he had actually butted George and broke his nose, a lifetime ban.

Wilson grabs Dickson by his testicles and walks away unpunished, well they probably thought that a punishment would lead to an appeal from Wilson on the grounds of him just being friendly and a punishment would be appealed on the grounds of sexual orientation

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by Munchkin on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 1:38 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Ashton puts his hand round the face, no intent and no damage just stupid - 8 weeks. I didn't realise stupidity was a punishable offence.

Swinton lands a deliberate punch on a player unable to defend himself that causes his eye to swell up like a balloon and is potentially more dangerous as the head was not in a position to move backwards and therefore had to absorb the full force of the punch and he gets one week, obviously stupidity and viciousness are not punishable offences as he didn't get punished for either.

Hartley touches his head to another player, no hurt, no damage and in slow motion and gets 8 weeks, what would he have got if he had actually butted George and broke his nose, a lifetime ban.

Wilson grabs Dickson by his testicles and walks away unpunished, well they probably thought that a punishment would lead to an appeal from Wilson on the grounds of him just being friendly and a punishment would be appealed on the grounds of sexual orientation

With Ashton, I believe there was intent, and yes, stupidity is most often punished.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by beshocked on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 2:27 pm

Don't mind Ashton being punished as he deserved it but agree with well past it. How on earth did Wilson and Swinton not get punished?

I don't think with Ashton there was intent, just stupidity.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 8:39 am

Sounds like the Wilson citing was a bit of a farce

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/glasgow-warriors/glasgow-warriors-anger-over-ryan-wilson-citing-1-4009196

Despite no conclusive evidence and having not spoken to Dickson to ask his side of things Wilson was dragged to a citing panel.

Apparently it was a very short process because Dickson said over the phone that nothing actually happened!

picard

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by VinceWLB on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 9:27 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sounds like the Wilson citing was a bit of a farce

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/glasgow-warriors/glasgow-warriors-anger-over-ryan-wilson-citing-1-4009196

Despite no conclusive evidence and having not spoken to Dickson to ask his side of things Wilson was dragged to a citing panel.

Apparently it was a very short process because Dickson said over the phone that nothing actually happened!

picard

Really? They must have got a nice beer after the game together with Saints motm Swinson too.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by HammerofThunor on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:01 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sounds like the Wilson citing was a bit of a farce

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/glasgow-warriors/glasgow-warriors-anger-over-ryan-wilson-citing-1-4009196

Despite no conclusive evidence and having not spoken to Dickson to ask his side of things Wilson was dragged to a citing panel.

Apparently it was a very short process because Dickson said over the phone that nothing actually happened!

picard

Citing are done when there are suspicions. I don' think I've ever heard of people being questioned before the hearing. So not really a farce. It seems the quickly realised nothing happened and chucked it other.

And if he doesn't want to get citing he should not cheat at the scrum by grabbing at the scrum half. If he hadn't done that there wouldn't have even been suspicions.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:10 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Sounds like the Wilson citing was a bit of a farce

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/glasgow-warriors/glasgow-warriors-anger-over-ryan-wilson-citing-1-4009196

Despite no conclusive evidence and having not spoken to Dickson to ask his side of things Wilson was dragged to a citing panel.

Apparently it was a very short process because Dickson said over the phone that nothing actually happened!

picard

Citing are done when there are suspicions. I don' think I've ever heard of people being questioned before the hearing. So not really a farce. It seems the quickly realised nothing happened and chucked it other.

And if he doesn't want to get citing he should not cheat at the scrum by grabbing at the scrum half. If he hadn't done that there wouldn't have even been suspicions.

I think it is farcical because he was dragged down to London on the basis of something with very little evidence. Dickson barely flinched and didn't complain to the ref, and the tv angle was very inconclusive.

There would be a lot of citings if that was used as the baseline of evidence required!

As for your last point - there would be every flanker on the pitch cited every game if you think grabbing a scrum half is dirty play!

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:24 am

And I think it is quite common for the 'victim' to come out in defence of the accused.

When Wilson was cited in the world cup the person who struck with his boot defended him saying he was holding him off the ball illegally in the first place do shouldn't get a ban.

Indeed Ross Ford and Jonny Gray's defence team used testimony from the Samoan player who said that there was nothing wrong with their ruck clear out and that he asked for them not to be banned!

And rightly so - what if the video evidence in the case suggested something had happened and he was banned, and because you couldn't use player testimony Dickson wouldn't have been able to get his point across and he would have been banned incorrectly?

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by HammerofThunor on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:31 am

Player testimony is to find out what happened, not if it was ok. If Dickson had said "he grabbed my balls but it was ok. Happens all the time" Wilson would have been banned.

Players, I think would generally prefer it all to stay on the pitch. Similar with (the supposedly) Richard Cockerill stance of not reporting anything. Doesn't mean that gels with the view of the unions/World Rugby.

And if flankers keep grabbing scrum halves by the front of the shorts, then yes they should all be cited unless their is a camera angle that shows exactly what they did. In fact I would cite them anyway for bad sportsmanship and give out the warnings that cumulate into bans. Same goes for people holding onto legs etc.

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:54 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Player testimony is to find out what happened, not if it was ok. If Dickson had said "he grabbed my balls but it was ok. Happens all the time" Wilson would have been banned.

Players, I think would generally prefer it all to stay on the pitch. Similar with (the supposedly) Richard Cockerill stance of not reporting anything. Doesn't mean that gels with the view of the unions/World Rugby.

And if flankers keep grabbing scrum halves by the front of the shorts, then yes they should all be cited unless their is a camera angle that shows exactly what they did.  In fact I would cite them anyway for bad sportsmanship and give out the warnings that cumulate into bans.  Same goes for people holding onto legs etc.

Well Dickson's testimony was 'nothing actually happened' so if that had been asked pre-citing then none of this would have happened! Wilson has lost his place this weekend and I wouldn't be surprised if missing training sessions for a trip to London was part of the reason why!

I just don't see why you're singling out Wilson for the short grabbing when it happens all the time. Just like holding someone off the ball or holding someone in the ruck. Doesn't mage it right, but everything can't be cited!


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Re: This Weekend's Citings

Post by BigGee on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 2:48 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:

I just don't see why you're singling out Wilson for the short grabbing when it happens all the time. Just like holding someone off the ball or holding someone in the ruck. Doesn't mage it right, but everything can't be cited!


This sort of thing has been going in since rugby was invented, no point looking at sepia tinted spectacles about it. Players have always grabbed shirts, shorts, held players down and generally cheated when they could get away with it. The only difference was that in the amateur era was that you were pretty much allowed to punch or kick someone back when they did it to you! All these things were sorted out on the pitch back then, if you grabbed someone's balls, you could be pretty sure that yours would be getting a tug as well at some stage.

It is part of the game, it always has been. The only trick is not to get caught!

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Re: This Weekend's Citings

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