SA - England Fourth Test

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SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Tue 19 Jan 2016, 12:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Time to set this one up ?

Lots of SA selection discussions tacked on to the 3rd Test thread...


For England this one presents a chance to take the next step up , I think. In the Ashes series they seemed happy to rest on their laurels and weren't very competitive at The Oval : I am fairly sure Bayliss won't miss the chance to remind them that good teams want to keep winning even when the principal aim has been achieved.

Selection seems to be essentially just a case of who replaces Finn. Woakes or Footitt , I'd imagine (unless Jordan has been doing amazing things in the nets). I know who Olly will pick ...

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Strings Philander on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 10:43 am

kingraf wrote:
Strings Philander wrote:Is there a school of thought that says this is a dead rubber - there will be a target - send Stokes and Hales out to open and see how far they can get towards it in ODI mode?

Would be almost certainly fruitless - but would make for an entertaining few overs and another step in the ongoing "reconnection with the public" exercise?

Could be interesting. I've never seen a team Frak around just because its a dead rubber though. Would certainly help us with Stokes. Need as fresh a ball as possible bowling to him

Yeah - I've never seen it either. And it's not going to happen.
I would like to see it though.
That's as an in-work scoreboard watcher though.
If I was at home I would probably prefer to watch Cook, Compton and Co. perilously trying to kill time.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 10:48 am

Strings Philander wrote:Is there a school of thought that says this is a dead rubber - there will be a target - send Stokes and Hales out to open and see how far they can get towards it in ODI mode?

Would be almost certainly fruitless - but would make for an entertaining few overs and another step in the ongoing "reconnection with the public" exercise?

Interesting idea . But I'd imagine that the target - while steep - will probably be achievable in the sense of time in any case...so not sure that using the big guns hitting first up would be the best tactic.

If SA proceed at the current rate they will require most of the day to attain a 400 lead. With batting not easy but SA a bowler short you'd think AB would want plenty of time to bowl them out so maybe we might see a declaration giving England , say , 350-370 in twenty overs plus tomorrow ? Be tempting to chase that...but maybe more by trying to get a good start , wear down the pace pair , and go hard late tomorrow...the other merit of this more conventional approach Is that if scoring fast proves too difficult you can switch to defending...

Your plan does appeal for Entertainment though !

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Strings Philander on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 10:49 am

dummy_half wrote:Strings

Don't think any target SA set us will require ODI-style batting. Likely to be about 375-400 in just short of 4 sessions unless we get them all out at some point this afternoon (so 325-350 in 140 overs). Either way, the run rate would be manageable with fairly normal batting - the difficulty is batting for 120 overs on a day 4 and day 5 pitch.

Interesting conundrum for SA though, with Abbot carrying an injury and only 2 other front line seamers. Probably means that if they get t0 a position to declare they'll bat a bit longer than would otherwise have been the case, so as to keep Rabada and Morkel's workload lower.

Agreed Dummy.
But I'm thinking of shortening that 120 overs requirement through a quick first 100.
And putting immediate pressure on the bowling unit if they are being knocked about.
If it doesn't work out, revert to traditional methods, knowing you've still got the deep English batting line up to fall back on.

I'm sure there is good reason no-one ever tries this though. Haha.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:15 am

I like Strings' idea - can't see it happening though. Also I am not sure Hales is in the best form, so maybe Stokes and Moeen to open given the latter has opened in ODIs? Or Broad and Jimmy for a laugh

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:55 am

Morning or evening folks,

By normal standards England are having a good day with 3 frontline batsmen falling and the run rate being kept down. However, sadly not good enough in the context of the game. South Africa now leadng by 283. Whether they get that 400 run lead I was banging on about last night remains to be seen but don't think they'll be too far off it, eh Alfie? Smile

Btw, much as I like Strings and have welcomed him to this forum I feel his idea of Stokes opening the batting - as supported by some of you other guys - is barmy. To have any chance of either drawing or winning, we're going to have to start sensibly. Any crash bang wallop stuff can and should be called upon much later on day 5 and only if we have a sniff of victory then.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:56 am

Bavuma brings up the 150...has been a bit of a struggle today for the SA bats , but the tension of the morning session has eased off now as it becomes apparent they aren't going to be rolled cheaply ...at worst they're going to lead by 340 or so , probably rather more ; so they can concentrate on just extending that , and presumably accelerating eventually.
Anderson has bowled another good spell ( rumours of his demise somewhat exaggerated Smile ; pity he didn't get back in this groove first innings !) but Moeen isn't giving them too many anxious moments.

Poor Woakes will probably get the ball back just as they get ready to start attacking the bowling Smile

Fifty stand for these two clap

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:09 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Morning or evening folks,

By normal standards England are having a good day with 3 frontline batsmen falling and the run rate being kept down. However, sadly not good enough in the context of the game. South Africa now leadng by 283. Whether they get that 400 run lead I was banging on about last night remains to be seen but don't think they'll be too far off it, eh Alfie? Smile

Btw, much as I like Strings and have welcomed him to this forum I feel his idea of Stokes opening the batting - as supported by some of you other guys - is barmy. To have any chance of either drawing or winning, we're going to have to start sensibly. Any crash bang wallop stuff can and should be called upon much later on day 5 and only if we have a sniff of victory then.

If these two keep going they'll be set for 400 lead eventually , sure. They'll need to speed up though or it might arrive rather later than they'd like this evening - which of course may happen as the pressure starts to fall away. Only the locals can tell me when these famous afternoon storms are coming Smile ...but if one arrives today they may regret not being bowled out ; as they quite possibly have enough runs to win already.

Rather a pity that - barring sudden dramatic changes - an England run chase has effectively been killed off as an option. Means that the cricket is going to be a bit ho- hum from now to the eventual declaration...though tomorrow may bring some tense moments.

Incidentally I don't think Strings or anyone actually think they should open with Stokes : just that it might be fun to watch ! Not going to happen - though if it were chasing 200 in twenty five overs it would be a reasonable gamble.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Strings Philander on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:17 pm

No need to disagree so apologetically Guildford. I'm here for the discussion so no worries.

I guess I'm thinking of bums on seats tomorrow. Only because it is a dead rubber.

Put in the context of the history of this fixture though - on second thoughts it may not even be appropriate even as a PR exercise. And I agree of course, it would be a hell of a punt that would undoubtedly fail. Barmy indeed.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:25 pm

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Morning or evening folks,

By normal standards England are having a good day with 3 frontline batsmen falling and the run rate being kept down. However, sadly not good enough in the context of the game. South Africa now leadng by 283. Whether they get that 400 run lead I was banging on about last night remains to be seen but don't think they'll be too far off it, eh Alfie? Smile

Btw, much as I like Strings and have welcomed him to this forum I feel his idea of Stokes opening the batting - as supported by some of you other guys - is barmy. To have any chance of either drawing or winning, we're going to have to start sensibly. Any crash bang wallop stuff can and should be called upon much later on day 5 and only if we have a sniff of victory then.

If these two keep going they'll be set for 400 lead eventually , sure. They'll need to speed up though or it might arrive rather later than they'd like this evening - which of course may happen as the pressure starts to fall away. Only the locals can tell me when these famous afternoon storms are coming Smile ...but if one arrives today they may regret not being bowled out ; as they quite possibly have enough runs to win already.

Rather a pity that - barring sudden dramatic changes - an England run chase has effectively been killed off as an option.  Means that the cricket is going to be a bit ho- hum from now to the eventual declaration...though tomorrow may bring some tense moments.

Incidentally I don't think Strings or anyone actually think they should open with Stokes : just that it might be fun to watch ! Not going to happen - though if it were chasing 200 in twenty five overs it would be a reasonable gamble.

Firstly, sincere apologies then for my monstrous slur on Strings and others, I can only say in my defence that I skimmed today's posts too quickly.

Talk of a storm tomorrow. Told you a draw was on. Wink

Agree with you that an England run chase is looking increasingly unlikely. That will at least give (our) Cook another opportunity to do what he does best and play himself further back into form.

Meanwhile, Amla looking the hard working and class act he is.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:28 pm

Strings Philander wrote:No need to disagree so apologetically Guildford. I'm here for the discussion so no worries.

I guess I'm thinking of bums on seats tomorrow. Only because it is a dead rubber.

Put in the context of the history of this fixture though - on second thoughts it may not even be appropriate even as a PR exercise. And I agree of course, it would be a hell of a punt that would undoubtedly fail. Barmy indeed.

Hokey doke, Strings. In terms of bums on seats, yes - as for it working, no. So we're actually at one.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:47 pm

This is pretty boring now, as these periods of play always are

Woakes has totally fluffed his lines in this Test though, he was obviously behind Finn in the pecking order, but must now be miles behind Wood as well and probably even Chris Jordan at this rate!

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:54 pm

This part of a Test match - though often necessary - is the one in which I really struggle to maintain interest. I say that whether "my" side is setting the target , or trying todelay it. Yes , there are individual battles taking place , people racking up stats - but we all know from a certain stage that there isn't going to be any major development or twist  : the batting side is going to reach - more or less - a desired figure , and declare , or throw its last few wickets...and until then we are all marking time.  I discount runs made in such circumstances , while admiring the hitting ability displayed by some players...but even that doesn't excite me like agressive play in a "live" situation.

Just grumbling , sorry : I know we have to go through this sometimes.  Cant have five days of drama.  But I'd much rather , today , have seen SA lose a couple more wickets and fight back with some aggressive play - even if we end up in the same place anyway Smile

Fifteen minutes to tea and the lead is 335.   So they'll be batting on into the last session : wonder for how long ?

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Duty281 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:57 pm

If England ever want to nail a 400+ chase, or make up for that timeless test in the 30s, this is their chance.

Weakened South African bowling attack due to injury, a good pitch, and the prospect of a 0-3 win. Add the lot together and what do we get?

We get Cook hitting his 10,000th test run....for a victorious England.

Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the milky way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by kingraf on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:00 pm

It's taken some serious beatings but the team is beginning is to take shape now. We still need a reliable #5, but its probably the first time in history the team ranked #1 finishes a tour they've lost in better shape than they came in
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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:If England ever want to nail a 400+ chase, or make up for that timeless test in the 30s, this is their chance.

Weakened South African bowling attack due to injury, a good pitch, and the prospect of a 0-3 win. Add the lot together and what do we get?

We get Cook hitting his 10,000th test run....for a victorious England.

Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the milky way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.

Admire your boundless optimism , Duty : but it isn't on. The pitch is not a monster ; but neither is it conducive to free scoring under pressure...and the number of balls misbehaving tomorrow might increase. Unless it changes dramatically I think survival for a day might be possible - only three wickets today in 60 odd overs...but scoring at four plus per over throughout ain't going to happen...

And I suspect the weather is going to trim the remaining game time somewhat.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:19 pm

alfie wrote:This part of a Test match - though often necessary - is the one in which I really struggle to maintain interest. I say that whether "my" side is setting the target , or trying todelay it. Yes , there are individual battles taking place , people racking up stats - but we all know from a certain stage that there isn't going to be any major development or twist  : the batting side is going to reach - more or less - a desired figure , and declare , or throw its last few wickets...and until then we are all marking time.  I discount runs made in such circumstances , while admiring the hitting ability displayed by some players...but even that doesn't excite me like agressive play in a "live" situation.

Just grumbling , sorry : I know we have to go through this sometimes.  Cant have five days of drama.  But I'd much rather , today , have seen SA lose a couple more wickets and fight back with some aggressive play - even if we end up in the same place anyway Smile

Fifteen minutes to tea and the lead is 335.   So they'll be batting on into the last session : wonder for how long ?

Assuming the weather looks like holding in this session, I would stick to my view last night - bat for about another 50 minutes pushing on for a lead of 400 and then declare.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:20 pm

kingraf wrote:It's taken some serious beatings but the team is beginning is to take shape now. We still need a reliable #5, but its probably the first time in history the team ranked #1 finishes a tour they've lost in better shape than they came in

Agree with that , raf .

Still think your batting needs to demonstrate consistent ability under pressure ; but Cook looks a serious opener for the next year or two and Bavuma is showing promise. And of course Rabada is a fine addition to your pace bowling stocks.
Am glad to see this : was afraid England would end up being damned with faint praise for this series win on the grounds that "SA are a basket case".

Think there's life in them yet , even if they are no longer undisputed number one. Next series with Australia will ba an interesting one.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:37 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:This part of a Test match - though often necessary - is the one in which I really struggle to maintain interest. I say that whether "my" side is setting the target , or trying todelay it. Yes , there are individual battles taking place , people racking up stats - but we all know from a certain stage that there isn't going to be any major development or twist  : the batting side is going to reach - more or less - a desired figure , and declare , or throw its last few wickets...and until then we are all marking time.  I discount runs made in such circumstances , while admiring the hitting ability displayed by some players...but even that doesn't excite me like agressive play in a "live" situation.

Just grumbling , sorry : I know we have to go through this sometimes.  Cant have five days of drama.  But I'd much rather , today , have seen SA lose a couple more wickets and fight back with some aggressive play - even if we end up in the same place anyway Smile

Fifteen minutes to tea and the lead is 335.   So they'll be batting on into the last session : wonder for how long ?

Assuming the weather looks like holding in this session, I would stick to my view last night - bat for about another 50 minutes pushing on for a lead of 400 and then declare.

Yes . With Abbott unlikely to bowl he will probably want 400 ...though I'm not sure they need that many. I think you fancied the draw from that scenario , guildford ? Could be right.
Though a lot may depend on the weather ...it is just starting to rain now...

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:41 pm

Amla gone for 96 ...bad luck in missing the hundred but he's done the job for SA - they can't lose from here.

Since he decided to quit the captaincy his old fluency has returned...while the yips seem to have transferred to AB Smile

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 1:44 pm

Bavuma has the message : big six off Anderson before adding insult to injury with a French cut for four : Jimmy won't be happy Smile

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:07 pm

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:This part of a Test match - though often necessary - is the one in which I really struggle to maintain interest. I say that whether "my" side is setting the target , or trying todelay it. Yes , there are individual battles taking place , people racking up stats - but we all know from a certain stage that there isn't going to be any major development or twist  : the batting side is going to reach - more or less - a desired figure , and declare , or throw its last few wickets...and until then we are all marking time.  I discount runs made in such circumstances , while admiring the hitting ability displayed by some players...but even that doesn't excite me like agressive play in a "live" situation.

Just grumbling , sorry : I know we have to go through this sometimes.  Cant have five days of drama.  But I'd much rather , today , have seen SA lose a couple more wickets and fight back with some aggressive play - even if we end up in the same place anyway Smile

Fifteen minutes to tea and the lead is 335.   So they'll be batting on into the last session : wonder for how long ?

Assuming the weather looks like holding in this session, I would stick to my view last night - bat for about another 50 minutes pushing on for a lead of 400 and then declare.



Yes . With Abbott unlikely to bowl he will probably want 400 ...though I'm not sure they need that many.  I think you fancied the draw from that scenario , guildford ?  Could be right.
Though a lot may depend on the weather ...it is just starting to rain now...

Yeah, I did fancy the draw, particularly influenced by South Africa appearing to have one of their four frontline bowlers crocked. That made things tricky for AB. Hussan was critical during the tea interval that SA's batsmen hadn't cracked on more but I think that was ignoring the limited bowling resources AB will have at his disposal. Assuming the weather holds (and you can't really expect AB to plan much for rain), SA will probably bowl us out and win the match in 3 sessions or not at all. Giving SA four whole sessions to bowl us out with only three main bowlers wouldn't have been that much help to SA and might just have permitted a Strings/Stokes miracle finish!

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:07 pm

So off we go for rain and light...will they get back on today ?

If not , SA may have missed the bus. With a lead of 380 they're safe ; but bowling England out in less than a day might be difficult ...

Of course it may clear up ; but it looks a bit black in parts so I'm not sure there'll be much more play today.

Good night everyone .

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:12 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:This part of a Test match - though often necessary - is the one in which I really struggle to maintain interest. I say that whether "my" side is setting the target , or trying todelay it. Yes , there are individual battles taking place , people racking up stats - but we all know from a certain stage that there isn't going to be any major development or twist  : the batting side is going to reach - more or less - a desired figure , and declare , or throw its last few wickets...and until then we are all marking time.  I discount runs made in such circumstances , while admiring the hitting ability displayed by some players...but even that doesn't excite me like agressive play in a "live" situation.

Just grumbling , sorry : I know we have to go through this sometimes.  Cant have five days of drama.  But I'd much rather , today , have seen SA lose a couple more wickets and fight back with some aggressive play - even if we end up in the same place anyway Smile

Fifteen minutes to tea and the lead is 335.   So they'll be batting on into the last session : wonder for how long ?

Assuming the weather looks like holding in this session, I would stick to my view last night - bat for about another 50 minutes pushing on for a lead of 400 and then declare.



Yes . With Abbott unlikely to bowl he will probably want 400 ...though I'm not sure they need that many.  I think you fancied the draw from that scenario , guildford ?  Could be right.
Though a lot may depend on the weather ...it is just starting to rain now...

Yeah, I did fancy the draw, particularly influenced by South Africa appearing to have one of their four frontline bowlers crocked. That made things tricky for AB. Hussan was critical during the tea interval that SA's batsmen hadn't cracked on more but I think that was ignoring the limited bowling resources AB will have at his disposal. Assuming the weather holds (and you can't really expect AB to plan much for rain), SA will probably bowl us out and win the match  in 3 sessions or not at all. Giving SA four whole sessions to bowl us out with only three main bowlers wouldn't have been that much help to SA and might just have permitted a Strings/Stokes miracle finish!

Yeah good point ..just two pace men on deck , fielding over more than ninety overs and the bowling might have ended up a bit ragged. Whether they can take ten wickets in under ninety is another matter : only four have fallen today , even with batsmen wanting to get on with it.

Good summary , guildford. We will see tomorrow.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:14 pm

Hi all. Due to some happy personal circumstances (my much better half finally getting her visa), I haven't been watching much of this game so far. Can't be bothered to scroll back through the posts, but it is nice to see a new face on here, so here's a warm welcome to Strings Bubbly

Watched a bit of the cricket post lunch and Amla and Bavuma played very nicely, but can't help feeling they could/should have been slightly more proactive in the hour before tea, and the session since. Am also a bit surprised De Villiers hasn't declared yet, don't think England will have any intention of chasing these down. With rain forecast for tomorrow (?) and today looking all over I just feel SA have been a bit overly cautious... I read somewhere that Abbott is unlikely to bowl? so that may have something to do with it too: the pitch doesn't seem to be doing all that much for the spinners, though it has misbehaved at times for the seamers (all in all, not a bad pitch you'd have to say).

Even as an England fan, can't help but feel pleased that Amla has his form back, such a good player to watch when in full flow. With Cook scoring runs at the top, Bavuma confirming his promise, SA do look like they have a stronger backbone, but... it wasn't that long ago they were knocked over for 80-odd, so let's not rush to proclaim that they're back quite yet.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:14 pm

Night, Alfie.

Some may be looking for us to go at 5 or 6 an over tomorrow in between any bits of rain for victory but I'll take Cook, Compton & Co boring us senseless for the draw! Very Happy

As said before, an opportunity for Hales to add a bit of glue to his place tomorrow (assuming they get out there).

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:20 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Hi all. Due to some happy personal circumstances (my much better half finally getting her visa), I haven't been watching much of this game so far. Can't be bothered to scroll back through the posts, but it is nice to see a new face on here, so here's a warm welcome to Strings Bubbly

Watched a bit of the cricket post lunch and Amla and Bavuma played very nicely, but can't help feeling they could/should have been slightly more proactive in the hour before tea, and the session since. Am also a bit surprised De Villiers hasn't declared yet, don't think England will have any intention of chasing these down. With rain forecast for tomorrow (?) and today looking all over I just feel SA have been a bit overly cautious... I read somewhere that Abbott is unlikely to bowl? so that may have something to do with it too: the pitch doesn't seem to be doing all that much for the spinners, though it has misbehaved at times for the seamers (all in all, not a bad pitch you'd have to say).

Even as an England fan, can't help but feel pleased that Amla has his form back, such a good player to watch when in full flow. With Cook scoring runs at the top, Bavuma confirming his promise, SA do look like they have a stronger backbone, but... it wasn't that long ago they were knocked over for 80-odd, so let's not rush to proclaim that they're back quite yet.

Correct, MfC, but on the other hand the obituaries were being written too soon.

Unless the weather forecast was as near certain as it can be, I can understand AB's approach - explained in posts above.

Btw, congrats re your much better half! thumbsup

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:34 pm

Cheers guildford, been a long wait (two and a half months) so a huge relief it's all sorted.

Agree with you actually about the obituaries, I think a realistic assessment is that SA are still very much at the rebuilding stage. They've got a solid core around which to build, but also some fairly substantial question marks, such as:
- second opener. Good that Cook seized his chance, and SA will be hoping he'll go on from there.
- number 5. Don't see Duminy as being the solution TBH, who are the middle-order players coming through?
- spinner. Can Piedt nail down his spot? Think there's enough there to work with, but SA need to back him now.
- concerns over Steyn's long-term fitness. Rabada's stepped up handsomely so far but Morkel has been disappointing, and it's asking a lot of a 20 year old to lead the attack. Obviously they're missing Philander too, so probably not too much concern over this one.
- balance. four bowlers or five?

Re weather and declaration, I've always said you can't captain by forecast, but neither should you completely ignore it. If Abbott really can't bowl though, then I understand AB's caution. The pitch seems to be doing more for the seamers, and we saw SA score easily off the spinners, and could see England doing the same. If Piedt and Duminy/Elgar say had to bowl 60+ overs between them - say with England set 360 off 115 overs or so - there was a conceivable chance England could have won IMO.

All looks a bit academic now. AB will declare tomorrow morning and try to bowl England out in a full day's play (presumably extended to 98 overs). Don't think England will even think about getting the runs, although if they reach tea in a comfortable position and it's still on they might give it a go in the last session...

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by kingraf on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:53 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Cheers guildford, been a long wait (two and a half months) so a huge relief it's all sorted.

Agree with you actually about the obituaries, I think a realistic assessment is that SA are still very much at the rebuilding stage. They've got a solid core around which to build, but also some fairly substantial question marks, such as:
- second opener. Good that Cook seized his chance, and SA will be hoping he'll go on from there.
- number 5. Don't see Duminy as being the solution TBH, who are the middle-order players coming through?
- spinner. Can Piedt nail down his spot? Think there's enough there to work with, but SA need to back him now.
- concerns over Steyn's long-term fitness. Rabada's stepped up handsomely so far but Morkel has been disappointing, and it's asking a lot of a 20 year old to lead the attack. Obviously they're missing Philander too, so probably not too much concern over this one.
- balance. four bowlers or five?

Re weather and declaration, I've always said you can't captain by forecast, but neither should you completely ignore it. If Abbott really can't bowl though, then I understand AB's caution. The pitch seems to be doing more for the seamers, and we saw SA score easily off the spinners, and could see England doing the same. If Piedt and Duminy/Elgar say had to bowl 60+ overs between them - say with England set 360 off 115 overs or so - there was a conceivable chance England could have won IMO.

All looks a bit academic now. AB will declare tomorrow morning and try to bowl England out in a full day's play (presumably extended to 98 overs). Don't think England will even think about getting the runs, although if they reach tea in a comfortable position and it's still on they might give it a go in the last session...

There'a also the fact that no team has ever chased 300 on this ground or lasted 100 overs.
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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by banbrotam on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:57 pm

The mutterings by the media about AB declaring earlier are very easy for them / us to say.

They forget that this is a team in the middle of a losing / not winning streak. 3-0 would be a disaster. 2-0, when you can say you had the better of the two draws is far more palatable

I'm also not certain I'd be willing to give any sniff, not when you've got Stokes, Bairstow and Ali, capable of scoring a 100 between them in no time

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by seanmichaels on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 2:59 pm

England have been criticised over the years for a dour pragmatic approach to sport. SA are really taking that mantel in this series. Given they've won 3/4 tosses and lucked on favourable conditions bar one session, they've really played some negative cricket here.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:01 pm

Small sample though isn't it? Looks like only 11 fourth innings have been played at this ground. One was the Cronje match so make that 10.

5 of those were won chasing targets up to 226, so that leaves the other 5 which isn't a lot of matches to go off

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by kingraf on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:06 pm

VTR wrote:Small sample though isn't it? Looks like only 11 fourth innings have been played at this ground. One was the Cronje match so make that 10.

5 of those were won chasing targets up to 226, so that leaves the other 5 which isn't a lot of matches to go off

If you look at the other games which have generally been inning thrashings meted out. Even then only one team has crossed 300 batting last. More often than not its 150 AO
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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:17 pm

Fair point - I didn't look at third innings scores

Anyway, I don't blame SA for not setting England something stupid like 350 in 120 overs. The way the game is played now that's more than a carrot

Should add, even if England win from here it would be a hollow victory, as I like to see a team take 20 wickets to win a match

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:21 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Cheers guildford, been a long wait (two and a half months) so a huge relief it's all sorted.

Agree with you actually about the obituaries, I think a realistic assessment is that SA are still very much at the rebuilding stage. They've got a solid core around which to build, but also some fairly substantial question marks, such as:
- second opener. Good that Cook seized his chance, and SA will be hoping he'll go on from there.
- number 5. Don't see Duminy as being the solution TBH, who are the middle-order players coming through?
- spinner. Can Piedt nail down his spot? Think there's enough there to work with, but SA need to back him now.
- concerns over Steyn's long-term fitness. Rabada's stepped up handsomely so far but Morkel has been disappointing, and it's asking a lot of a 20 year old to lead the attack. Obviously they're missing Philander too, so probably not too much concern over this one.
- balance. four bowlers or five?

Re weather and declaration, I've always said you can't captain by forecast, but neither should you completely ignore it. If Abbott really can't bowl though, then I understand AB's caution. The pitch seems to be doing more for the seamers, and we saw SA score easily off the spinners, and could see England doing the same. If Piedt and Duminy/Elgar say had to bowl 60+ overs between them - say with England set 360 off 115 overs or so - there was a conceivable chance England could have won IMO.

All looks a bit academic now. AB will declare tomorrow morning and try to bowl England out in a full day's play (presumably extended to 98 overs). Don't think England will even think about getting the runs, although if they reach tea in a comfortable position and it's still on they might give it a go in the last session...

Cheers also, Mfc.

Strings has been trying to sell tickets on the basis there might be fireworks on the last day! Wink  Sorry to be a damp squib but I think if we're safe by tea that will be because Cook and/or Compton dropped anchor from much earlier and we'll be too far behind the rate then to go for it at all. Not ignoring Raf's history post either.

All assuming it doesn't just chuck it down! Smile  

On South Africa's team, Duminy potentially has a really important role but just doesn't seem good enough with either bat or ball.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:38 pm

Two out already - no chance England are saving this. 4 down tonight I reckon

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:38 pm

Jaysus wept, I had a little hope but now its all down to the possible rain tomorrow although England wont deserve a draw from rain.
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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Strings Philander on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:52 pm

My gameplan is redundant - Stokes will be in in a minute and as good as opening anyway. Haha

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:54 pm

This really is very poor. Hales, Compton and Taylor have been so unconvincing they are even building a case for the public to demand the return of Ian Bell!

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:55 pm

Strings Philander wrote:My gameplan is redundant - Stokes will be in in a minute and as good as opening anyway. Haha

So will Moeen who I said could open with him!!

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Duty281 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:55 pm

Might as well have a swing now! Can't rely on the rain.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Duty281 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:56 pm

VTR wrote:This really is very poor. Hales, Compton and Taylor have been so unconvincing they are even building a case for the public to demand the return of Ian Bell!

And Ravi Bopara...Whistle

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:59 pm

Duty281 wrote:
VTR wrote:This really is very poor. Hales, Compton and Taylor have been so unconvincing they are even building a case for the public to demand the return of Ian Bell!

And Ravi Bopara...Whistle

Ravi can turn his arm over as well, bet he could have bagged a few nibbling it round on this deck

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by banbrotam on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 4:41 pm

VTR wrote:This really is very poor. Hales, Compton and Taylor have been so unconvincing they are even building a case for the public to demand the return of Ian Bell!

I think Taylor's alright and would give him the summer

Compton, was also one of the unsung heroes at Durban and we do need a defensive type somewhere in the top order

I don't think Hales has a hope of becoming a test batsman and thought it was a daft choice in the first place

They should have gone for Cook and Compton, with Balance at No.3 or even Bell to continue

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 5:00 pm

VTR wrote:This really is very poor. Hales, Compton and Taylor have been so unconvincing they are even building a case for the public to demand the return of Ian Bell!

Hales looks like he needs some time to go work out kinks in his game.

I can't make up my mind about Compton. Only averaging 30 across the series isn't good, but it isn't bad either.

Taylor just looks out of touch to me - think he's worth sticking with for a while longer yet. Hopefully he'll kick on to score some valuable runs tomorrow
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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by VTR on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 5:23 pm

Yeah, I wouldn't ditch all of them. Not ideal but would try Compton to open, Taylor stays and Ballance back in

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 6:03 pm

Didn't see any of England's second innings but it seems we made a right Horlicks of things. Almost certainly going to need help from the weather to get away with this one.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Strings Philander on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 6:08 pm

From the Beeb;

Jonny Bairstow became the first England wicketkeeper to have 20 dismissals in a four-match series

Interestingly....

Does this suggest a consistency that is being masked by highly scrutinised mistakes?

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by msp83 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 6:42 pm

Another impressive set of performances from Temba Bavuma and Kagiso Rabada. The much maligned transformation policy of CSA producing some results?
People are talking about South African team crossing a corner at last. But we should also remember that this is a side with 5 changes from the previous game. It is partly about them at last acting with basic common sense in selections. Stephen Cook at the top of the order has made a world of difference. And so has de Kock at 7. Those 2 should have been there from the word go....... Raf may be able to tell us something about possible middle order choices other than Duminy, du Plessis and Rossouw. Not really convinced about any one of them actually. and please, no reinventing van Zyl as a middle order bat!
any other exciting and promising young batsmen coming through the system? Preferably someone who can bowl a bit too?

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:43 pm

banbrotam wrote:
VTR wrote:This really is very poor. Hales, Compton and Taylor have been so unconvincing they are even building a case for the public to demand the return of Ian Bell!

I think Taylor's alright and would give him the summer

Compton, was also one of the unsung heroes at Durban and we do need a defensive type somewhere in the top order

I don't think Hales has a hope of becoming a test batsman and thought it was a daft choice in the first place

They should have gone for Cook and Compton, with Balance at No.3 or even Bell to continue

We have the quintessential defensive opener in Cook, that top three looks horrendous and would be putting too much pressure on Root and Taylor to up the rate, something the latter needs to tone down a bit, he goes for the big shots far too early.

Hales was never going to cut it and seemed to be given a chance just for the sake of being next in line and the lack of alternatives.

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Re: SA - England Fourth Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:44 pm

Strings Philander wrote:From the Beeb;

Jonny Bairstow became the first England wicketkeeper to have 20 dismissals in a four-match series

Interestingly....

Does this suggest a consistency that is being masked by highly scrutinised mistakes?

Lets be honest it's not the wicketkeeper who makes the dismissals happen but rather the bowler, it's a stat that means very little as far as actual keeping goes.

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