Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

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Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 3:56 pm

Writing this late in the first half, currently Bath 6 - Toulon 11.
Some strange observations so far:
Both team alternate between crabbing sideways and attempts to go forwards.
No real rhythm to the game.
Both 10s strangely unimpressive:
Ford tries on attack and does add energy, but gave away try on a Ronan O'Gara like tackle - he IS a liability defending.
Cooper just completely invisible.
Nonu seems to be going through motions
James O'Connor has a terrible haircut - almost competing with Rain Man.
Since I started typing both team had chances deep in the other's territory, but screwed it up through poor fundamentals.

Bizarre for teams over their salary caps.................

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by wales606 on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 3:59 pm

Very odd game. Seems both teams are lacking some fluidity

Not really sure which players are doing well or doing badly to be honest.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:02 pm

wales606 wrote:Not really sure which players are doing well or doing badly to be honest.
Good point, mate. Was thinking the same. Weird, eh?
You're right, something is missing.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Heaf on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:23 pm

Bath might be lucky there - that pass looked forwards to me ...

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Heaf on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:34 pm

Having said that if Bath go on to win that will be justice for Wasps being robbed by Mr Owens last week ...

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Heaf on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:36 pm

Denton - what a plonker!

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Bathite on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:39 pm

Another great Denton contribution

Cooper is awful

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:43 pm

Still a weird match. A draw is the most appropriate result since both teams rank high on the stupid-o-meter.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Heaf on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:45 pm

Toulon need to be knocked out - after last week's gift from Owens they don't deserve to go through IMO ...

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:57 pm

Feck sake George Ford! Can Ulster send Paddy Jackson over to take Baths kicks at goal or is that considered bad form Whistle

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 4:59 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Bizarre for teams over their salary caps.................

Euro for euro, Toulon are the worst team in this competition. I mean, they are way better than Treviso or Oyonnax but if those teams had the players they have they would be better than Toulon. Thats my honest opinion!

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Heaf on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:02 pm

Looks like Toulon will be through courtesy of blunders by Owens last week and Denton this week ... probably the least deserving qualifiers ...

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:08 pm

Notch wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Bizarre for teams over their salary caps.................

Euro for euro, Toulon are the worst team in this competition. I mean, they are way better than Treviso or Oyonnax but if those teams had the players they have they would be better than Toulon. Thats my honest opinion!
And pound for pound, Bath? At least Saracens get value for money.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:12 pm

And Ford was poor. This is the incumbent England fly half? Rob Andrew could do better - today.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:13 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Notch wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Bizarre for teams over their salary caps.................

Euro for euro, Toulon are the worst team in this competition. I mean, they are way better than Treviso or Oyonnax but if those teams had the players they have they would be better than Toulon. Thats my honest opinion!
And pound for pound, Bath?  At least Saracens get value for money.

Yeah. I mean, the thing is we know these teams will come good soon. If a mid-tier team has a poor run of form, players get itchy feet. If you can outspend the opposition, results don't affect recruitment. If we at Ulster have a few bad seasons all of sudden there is speculation our best players will be leaving, but at Toulon or Bath...

That for me is the biggest difference.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:19 pm

I get your point.  And agree completely.  
For two teams which spend a lot of money (within or outside agreed maximums), this was, shall we say, bitcoin salary for bitcoin salary, a truly awful match?  Not one player looked above the mess.

Teams like Ulster or Saints and others can't pay their way past these things.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:22 pm

Very frustrating for me as an Ulster fan that we're probably going out, whilst Toulon aren't.

At the end of the day we were a bit unlucky to get Saracens, who I believe would have beaten any other team in the comp, and we fecked up in Oyonnax first half- but on this evidence we're still in better form than blydi Toulon.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:30 pm

Notch wrote:Very frustrating for me as an Ulster fan that we're probably going out, whilst Toulon aren't.

At the end of the day we were a bit unlucky to get Saracens, who I believe would have beaten any other team in the comp, and we fecked up in Oyonnax first half- but on this evidence we're still in better form than blydi Toulon.
I think teams like ours don't have the depth to simply grind out wins over and over.  Bath are a middling team this season so outlasting them is not a great accomplishment. But across a whole season it takes a certain amount of depth to keep grinding.  For reasons known only to their respective heads of Finance, both Saracens and Toulon appear to have sufficient high caliber player depth to grind all season long if necessary.  Ours don't.  This is why I keep beating the drum about transparency/enforcement in salary cap reporting and even the inconsistencies between the business models in France, England and each of the Pro12 nations.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:38 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Notch wrote:Very frustrating for me as an Ulster fan that we're probably going out, whilst Toulon aren't.

At the end of the day we were a bit unlucky to get Saracens, who I believe would have beaten any other team in the comp, and we fecked up in Oyonnax first half- but on this evidence we're still in better form than blydi Toulon.
I think teams like ours don't have the depth to simply grind out wins over and over.  Bath are a middling team this season so outlasting them is not a great accomplishment. But across a whole season it takes a certain amount of depth to keep grinding.  For reasons known only to their respective heads of Finance, both Saracens and Toulon appear to have sufficient high caliber player depth to grind all season long if necessary.  Ours don't.  This is why I keep beating the drum about transparency/enforcement in salary cap reporting and even the inconsistencies between the business models in France, England and each of the Pro12 nations.

Exactly right doc, due to injuries we had to go to Oyonnax and rest Ruan Pienaar, Paddy Jackson and Nick Williams picked up a niggle. So the spine of our team was missing in the first half and we went around 23-0 down. We brought on the cavalry and won the game 24-23 but getting just one more try in that match would almost definitely have put us through today.

I criticise the coaches for their selection in that game, but those halfbacks can't play every week in both competitions. Sometimes they need a break, and we can't sign quality halfbacks to sit on the bench most of the season, so not much we can do really.

In any event... I can't really support Saints today because one of us is definitely going out, but you can bet that if Saints end up playing Sarries in the playoffs or anything I'll be a Saint for the day!

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:43 pm

What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

Pretty shocking considering they have 17 players in the Ireland squad. Most of the same players who have been humiliated against Wasps have been the key players in Ireland winning the last two Six Nations.

Thats honestly what I think is the problem for them. They have been carrying the Ireland national team and all those international call-ups are taking too much out of the squad. It's often said that teams can almost never win the European Cup and their league. Well, for Leinster they have to try and win their league, European Cup- and the Six Nations because often 11 or 12 of our 23-man match day squad in the Six Nations are all Leinster, and all of their leaders and key players play every Ireland test they are fit for.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:53 pm

Yeah that's why it is a bit of a shock to me. It could just be a bad season but the jobs for the boys didn't help either IMO.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:54 pm

Notch wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Notch wrote:Very frustrating for me as an Ulster fan that we're probably going out, whilst Toulon aren't.

At the end of the day we were a bit unlucky to get Saracens, who I believe would have beaten any other team in the comp, and we fecked up in Oyonnax first half- but on this evidence we're still in better form than blydi Toulon.
I think teams like ours don't have the depth to simply grind out wins over and over.  Bath are a middling team this season so outlasting them is not a great accomplishment. But across a whole season it takes a certain amount of depth to keep grinding.  For reasons known only to their respective heads of Finance, both Saracens and Toulon appear to have sufficient high caliber player depth to grind all season long if necessary.  Ours don't.  This is why I keep beating the drum about transparency/enforcement in salary cap reporting and even the inconsistencies between the business models in France, England and each of the Pro12 nations.

Exactly right doc, due to injuries we had to go to Oyonnax and rest Ruan Pienaar, Paddy Jackson and Nick Williams picked up a niggle. So the spine of our team was missing in the first half and we went around 23-0 down. We brought on the cavalry and won the game 24-23 but getting just one more try in that match would almost definitely have put us through today.

I criticise the coaches for their selection in that game, but those halfbacks can't play every week in both competitions. Sometimes they need a break, and we can't sign quality halfbacks to sit on the bench most of the season, so not much we can do really.

In any event... I can't really support Saints today because one of us is definitely going out, but you can bet that if Saints end up playing Sarries in the playoffs or anything I'll be a Saint for the day!
You will find yourself pleasantly surprised how good one looks wearing Green, Gold, and Black.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:57 pm

That's why Rory Best is such a smart choice for Ireland captain. Leinster players are struggling to balance Ireland and provincial rugby, having yet another Leinster player be Captain would just increase the pressure on them in the Pro12. Ulster have just 7 Ireland players and leaders in the team who are not Ireland internationals

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 5:59 pm

Notch wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

Pretty shocking considering they have 17 players in the Ireland squad. Most of the same players who have been humiliated against Wasps have been the key players in Ireland winning the last two Six Nations.

Thats honestly what I think is the problem for them. They have been carrying the Ireland national team and all those international call-ups are taking too much out of the squad. It's often said that teams can almost never win the European Cup and their league.
Except for the aforementioned Toulon, and for reasons we have already discussed.  To me, THIS is the ultimate problem which could undermine Rugby.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 6:05 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Notch wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

Pretty shocking considering they have 17 players in the Ireland squad. Most of the same players who have been humiliated against Wasps have been the key players in Ireland winning the last two Six Nations.

Thats honestly what I think is the problem for them. They have been carrying the Ireland national team and all those international call-ups are taking too much out of the squad. It's often said that teams can almost never win the European Cup and their league.
Except for the aforementioned Toulon, and for reasons we have already discussed.  To me, THIS is the ultimate problem which could undermine Rugby.

Well it is. It is happening and I don't think it can really be stopped. The IRFU tried to take a stand against them when the argument over the future of this tournament came up, and the debate over Pro12 qualification, but so profound is the influence of the likes of Boudjellal and Craig they were able to change the qualification rules and fundamental structure of a tournament they aren't even involved in. Just think about that for a second.

I mean, even if we had less games it wouldn't matter as much. It would be about the best 15 players not the best 30 players, and it would be way better than for players future welfare- I seriously worry about what this current generation of players will be like health-wise in the sixties and seventies. But once again, the big club owners want to push the system to breaking point to maximise revenue.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 9:30 pm

Notch wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Notch wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

Pretty shocking considering they have 17 players in the Ireland squad. Most of the same players who have been humiliated against Wasps have been the key players in Ireland winning the last two Six Nations.

Thats honestly what I think is the problem for them. They have been carrying the Ireland national team and all those international call-ups are taking too much out of the squad. It's often said that teams can almost never win the European Cup and their league.
Except for the aforementioned Toulon, and for reasons we have already discussed.  To me, THIS is the ultimate problem which could undermine Rugby.

Well it is. It is happening and I don't think it can really be stopped. The IRFU tried to take a stand against them when the argument over the future of this tournament came up, and the debate over Pro12 qualification, but so profound is the influence of the likes of Boudjellal and Craig they were able to change the qualification rules and fundamental structure of a tournament they aren't even involved in. Just think about that for a second.

I mean, even if we had less games it wouldn't matter as much. It would be about the best 15 players not the best 30 players, and it would be way better than for players future welfare- I seriously worry about what this current generation of players will be like health-wise in the sixties and seventies. But once again, the big club owners want to push the system to breaking point to maximise revenue.
Well, I'm not sure we want to re-open the Euro discussions, partially because I believe they missed the real point - the rogue owners.  In my opinion the 'Toulon Situation' would still exist today whether anything happened or not, and regardless of structure.  

If, as we all assume, Toulon 's salary structure is above the French cap, which is above the English cap, and I'm sure is above the Pro12 team's various salary structures, then the threat exists regardless of the competition.  These teams (Bath? Toulon? Sarries? Toulouse? Etc.) will have their way until we develop a common accounting structure and common salary rules so all teams can be reduced to the same financial baseline and caps.  On the other hand, I doubt these guys will volunteer to put into, in their mind, a financial straight-jacket.  So, to me, that's the real battle-line, and a fight which will be very difficult.  It's almost as if the league and competitions don't matter if these types cannot be brought under control.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by TJ on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 9:38 pm

Notch wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

Pretty shocking considering they have 17 players in the Ireland squad. Most of the same players who have been humiliated against Wasps have been the key players in Ireland winning the last two Six Nations.

Thats honestly what I think is the problem for them. They have been carrying the Ireland national team and all those international call-ups are taking too much out of the squad. It's often said that teams can almost never win the European Cup and their league. Well, for Leinster they have to try and win their league, European Cup- and the Six Nations because often 11 or 12 of our 23-man match day squad in the Six Nations are all Leinster, and all of their leaders and key players play every Ireland test they are fit for.

Glasgow are in the same position -= 16 players in the scotland squad, 21 players at the WC

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Exiledinborders on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 10:33 pm

Notch wrote:Well it is. It is happening and I don't think it can really be stopped. The IRFU tried to take a stand against them when the argument over the future of this tournament came up, and the debate over Pro12 qualification, but so profound is the influence of the likes of Boudjellal and Craig they were able to change the qualification rules and fundamental structure of a tournament they aren't even involved in. Just think about that for a second.
They changed the qualification rules for the European champions Cup which they are involved in. They did not change the qualification rules for the Pro12 if only because there are none. The did not change the structure of the Pro12. The play off system is still the same.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 10:36 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Notch wrote:Well it is. It is happening and I don't think it can really be stopped. The IRFU tried to take a stand against them when the argument over the future of this tournament came up, and the debate over Pro12 qualification, but so profound is the influence of the likes of Boudjellal and Craig they were able to change the qualification rules and fundamental structure of a tournament they aren't even involved in. Just think about that for a second.

They changed the qualification rules for the European champions Cup which they are involved in. They did not change the qualification rules for the Pro12 if only because there are none. The did not change the structure of the Pro12. The play off system is still the same.

Well I think thats absolute nonsense and double speak, but I can't be bothered arguing the point, so you win this round of Internet Arguments.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

Post by Notch on Sat 23 Jan 2016, 10:44 pm

TJ wrote:
Notch wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What about Leinster though, what sort of world do we live in when they have over 50 points put on them!

Pretty shocking considering they have 17 players in the Ireland squad. Most of the same players who have been humiliated against Wasps have been the key players in Ireland winning the last two Six Nations.

Thats honestly what I think is the problem for them. They have been carrying the Ireland national team and all those international call-ups are taking too much out of the squad. It's often said that teams can almost never win the European Cup and their league. Well, for Leinster they have to try and win their league, European Cup- and the Six Nations because often 11 or 12 of our 23-man match day squad in the Six Nations are all Leinster, and all of their leaders and key players play every Ireland test they are fit for.

Glasgow are in the same position -= 16 players in the scotland squad, 21 players at the WC

No surprise in a RWC year that Glasgow are in mid-table though. Truth is, that might cost Glasgow a playoff spot altogether but I'm quietly expecting them to make it into the Top 4 despite the odds being against them.

Who else do I think will be there? Ulster, Leinster and one other team. Those three teams may have started quite poorly but the further away we get from the World Cup the more and more they'll improve. Europe was a bridge too far for all of them but the title will be decided by who performs best in April and May and Glasgow and Leinster have a record of managing their squad to peak in those months. Ulster on the other hand tend to peak earlier in the season, around this time of year. Hope that changes.

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Re: Anyone Watching Bath-Toulon?

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