Ongoing NFL Discussion Thread V

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun 17 Jan 2016, 7:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Time for Carolina to pull out some starters me thinks

by Number-25 Mon 05 Dec 2016, 9:30 am

I'll be surprised if they make the playoffs now - the Bucs are on a roll, the Giants too far ahead although we still have them to play which could help. If the Bucs stay on a roll they might even win the division which would leave Atlanta but they'll be fine I think. Now of course we need to start worrying about Arizona too who are only a game behind and have the tiebreaker. We seem to have lost momentum now and that defense is regressing from what was already a low baseline.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 1:37 pm

skins4ever wrote:
Number-25 wrote:As if it wasn't already obvious, this game has underlined once and for all the fact that the Redskins do not have a playoff defense.

We don't have a defense. Period.

Aside from a couple of good (possibly great) players, we have a lot of 2nd raters/journeymen. Need to draft D almost exclusively this offseason.

Skins are what we thought they were, a wildcard team at best.

What do you guys think about the cousins conundrum?

I don't think you should pay him personally

by **Pr4wn** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 2:26 pm

Who should they go for then? Cousins has played extremely well this season, frequently putting the team on his back. They've won too many games to realistically draft a top-tier talent and who on earth would they be able to sign from free-agency?

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 2:53 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Who should they go for then? Cousins has played extremely well this season, frequently putting the team on his back. They've won too many games to realistically draft a top-tier talent and who on earth would they be able to sign from free-agency?

Cousins for me is very much in the Andy Dalton/Alex Smith category of QB. Won't kill you, but ultimately to win a super bowl you're gonna need build an elite elite supporting cast because they're not gonna win you it either.

I think you gotta go try find your elite QB - and not pay 20 million a year on a average guy

by Number-25 Mon 05 Dec 2016, 2:58 pm

Re Cousins, I don't think we have any option other than to pay him. Pr4wn has summed it up... what are the alternatives?

by Number-25 Mon 05 Dec 2016, 4:27 pm

Sorry Olly, just spotted your other post... the trouble is that there's just so few elite QBs out there. You'd love to get one but you're lucky if you do. How long do you wait? Much like a bad marriage, Cousins and the Redskins will probably settle for each other - they'd probably both like to do better but will realise in the end they're better off together than apart.

by Lowlandbrit Mon 05 Dec 2016, 4:31 pm

Lowlandbrit wrote:Bradley is on 59 now. He has a .237 winning percentage; current worst with at least 60 games is David Shula (Bengals '92-'96) at .268; nobody else is below .300

60 games, 14 wins for .233 now, and there are just enough games left for him to beat Shula's record for fastest to 50 losses if the Jags let him hang around until the end of the season.

by **Pr4wn** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 5:08 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Who should they go for then? Cousins has played extremely well this season, frequently putting the team on his back. They've won too many games to realistically draft a top-tier talent and who on earth would they be able to sign from free-agency?

Cousins for me is very much in the Andy Dalton/Alex Smith category of QB. Won't kill you, but ultimately to win a super bowl you're gonna need build an elite elite supporting cast because they're not gonna win you it either.

I think you gotta go try find your elite QB - and not pay 20 million a year on a average guy

But you're not offering a solution at all. Either the Skins sell out for Romo or they stay with Cousins. They have no other choices.

Also, an average QB can win you a Superbowl. My Bucs are living proof of that and, to a lesser extent, so is Russell Wilson (who I think is massively overrated). I agree that the Skins should prioritise defence and O-line. Cousins is only a minor worry when compared to other areas of the team.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:57 pm

If you look back at the last twenty super bowls, the only real "non elite/very good" QBs to win were Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and you could argue Russell Wilson.

You'll get the odd outlier yes, but to win a super bowl with a Kirk cousins/Andy Dalton type QB you need everything to break perfectly.

I don't know about solutions, I'm not a college scout. But there will be great QBs coming out, and I think you gotta trust yourself to find one. Your ceiling with cousins is what like a wildcard round berth in the playoffs? The floor might not be too low, but I'd rather take a risk and go get someone you like (ala the rams and eagles) than be tied to a mediocre mid range QB like Dalton/Cousins/Smith etc

by **Pr4wn** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 7:35 pm

That's what the Jets did with Geno Smith, that's what the Jags did with Bortles. It doesn't always work out.

And to suggest that you need things to break perfectly is also false. The Buccaneers won because of a dominant defence. Things didn't break perfectly, they just dominated their opponents that year.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 7:55 pm

Pr4wn wrote:That's what the Jets did with Geno Smith, that's what the Jags did with Bortles. It doesn't always work out.

And to suggest that you need things to break perfectly is also false. The Buccaneers won because of a dominant defence. Things didn't break perfectly, they just dominated their opponents that year.

Well if it always worked out the NFL would be pretty boring! I'd rather my team went and tried to get someone like that, than just accept mid range meh. If they flake out, they flake out and you restart again like the Jags/Browns will have to do. I still can't believe Cleveland traded out of picking a QB this past season. You only have to look at the Bucs/Titans to see what finding that QB can do to your franchise

by **Pr4wn** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 8:04 pm

Cousins has shown steady improvement since he started playing for the Skins. There really is no alternative at the moment other than letting him go and purposefully tanking to get to the top of the draft.

by Number-25 Mon 05 Dec 2016, 8:28 pm

There's a couple of QBs missing from your list Olly... the only person who has ever called Eli Manning elite is Eli himself - he has won 2 Superbowls and if you add the 2015/16 version of his brother then that takes your tally to 7 out of 20 Superbowls being won by non-elite QBs which isn't too bad a return rate and suggests that if you put a really good team around a solid QB then you can go all the way.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 8:49 pm

Number-25 wrote:There's a couple of QBs missing from your list Olly... the only person who has ever called Eli Manning elite is Eli himself - he has won 2 Superbowls and if you add the 2015/16 version of his brother then that takes your tally to 7 out of 20 Superbowls being won by non-elite QBs which isn't too bad a return rate and suggests that if you put a really good team around a solid QB then you can go all the way.

Rather unsurprisingly as a Pats fan, I rather dislike Eli - but he was elite back then imo. Forgot Peyton tbf, so 5 out of 20 for me.

I just don't get why a team would settle for middling 16-20 ranked type QB. Would rather they took a risk and tried to get a top 10 guy, even if that went wrong he turned out to be bottom 5 (ala Bortles, Manziel etc).

Each to their own I suppose. I certainly can't see Cousins ever lifting the Lombardi

by Lowlandbrit Mon 05 Dec 2016, 9:15 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I still can't believe Cleveland traded out of picking a QB this past season. You only have to look at the Bucs/Titans to see what finding that QB can do to your franchise

Get it to around .500? Also, which of Goff and Wentz would have saved Cleveland exactly?

by Number-25 Mon 05 Dec 2016, 9:31 pm

I reckon you're playing Devil's Advocate here Olly.... you know the only option the Redskins have is to pay Cousins. I'd love it if we could find a Brady in the draft... but it's a lot more likely that if you go down that route that you'll end up with a Brady Quinn than a Tom Brady.

by skins4ever Mon 05 Dec 2016, 10:52 pm

I'm not inclined to leap to Cousins defence, but you have to be fair and look at his numbers. Of QB's with over 50 att he's ranked 10 (by rating), 3rd in yards, 3rd ypg, 10th in TD's, 15th in INT, 8th in Comp %. In every meaningful stat, he's in the top 10 QB's. Regardless of how you cut it, that's productive in my book. On top of that, look at the scenarios he's been faced with pretty much every week; no solid running game to lean on, no elite receiver (though arguably Reed is in the top 5 TE's, if not top 3), a kicker that has slumped, and a defense that can't protect a lead (in fact can't even keep the team in with a chance on too many occasions). He's had to carry the team far too much this season, but in plenty of games he's done just that. Plenty of teams out there would take a QB with his numbers over what they have right now, and I'd go as far as saying over 50% of teams would take him.

His weakness is in the red zone, but aside from Reed he has no real RZ target (thank you Doctson), and again the aforementioned lack of a run game is no help. He also makes bone head plays every now and then, though he's far from alone in that.

I have to say I see nobody in the draft, and definitely nobody in FA I'd take over him right now. I'd pay him and look at drafting the replacement next year or the year after. We need to draft D and even then I can't see them improving the D enough in one year to fully turn it around. In 2 years we should be challenging for the division consistently, and then we should be looking at a rookie to build on.

He's not a franchise QB, but he's far removed from a one and done failure. As has been said, plenty of teams have found success with less.

Oh, and to help him they need to sack Barry. Talent is an issue, but his scheme has exposed every weakness we have instead of trying to disguise it.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 05 Dec 2016, 11:20 pm

Lowlandbrit wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I still can't believe Cleveland traded out of picking a QB this past season. You only have to look at the Bucs/Titans to see what finding that QB can do to your franchise
Get it to around .500? Also, which of Goff and Wentz would have saved Cleveland exactly?

Well both Tampa and Tennessee are tied for the division lead and Winston/Mariota have been great...

Wentz is pretty good (he is throwing to literally nobody), and I'm inclined to go easy on Goff considering the rams are making even Todd Gurley look bad this year.

I'm not playing devils advocate on Cousins - it's how I see it. For me Washington would be making an error paying him long term big money.

by GSC Mon 05 Dec 2016, 11:33 pm

The problem with Cousins is I feel he's completely dependent on his teammates overpowering the opposition. always felt he's fine when conditions are in his favour, but he won't lead the Skins past a better team too often.

If you can build a roster that does that regularly, you can win with him. harder to do that when he's eating a large chunk of cap space though

by JDizzle Tue 06 Dec 2016, 6:30 pm

Looking at that Redskins offence, they have a very decent receiving corps with Jackson, Garcon and Crowder, as well as Jordan Reed who is a top 5 TE. Then you have Williams, a top 5 LT, a top 5 pick at Guard and Moses has been sold at RT.

If you pay Cousins, how do you keep that together?

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 08 Dec 2016, 10:55 pm

Pats signed Griff Whalen to replace Danny Amendola

Fairly sure Bill is just trolling at this point

by skins4ever Sat 10 Dec 2016, 2:34 pm

London expands to 4 games. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop - welcome to your new franchise, the London Browns!

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:24 pm

The Giants alerted the NFL that the Steelers deflated footballs last week

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:16 pm

Darren Sproles just caught a fade for a TD

by Number-25 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:27 pm

Redskins defense has become laughably bad

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:39 pm

Dominating the game 2 FGs and a pick from redzone drives, just wiped out a return with a penalty, this has all the hallmarks of an 4 point loss

by Number-25 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:53 pm

Don't underestimate the ability of the Redskins' to bail you out GSC by making their own mistakes.

That's us had DJax's obligatory "come back to haunt you" big play.... just a question now of which team can get out of their own way long enough to go on and win. My money is on Philly.

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:29 pm

The Eagles looked like they'd blown it but Captain Kirk managed to throw a pick 6 to Leodis McKelvin

by Number-25 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:32 pm

'Course he did... I refer you back to my previous comment about not underestimating the power of the Redskins to make enough mistakes to beat themselves.

Ugly game.... two very ordinary teams.

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:33 pm

Rather than risking a Darren Sproles return, the Skins level him before the ball arrives.

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:34 pm

I'm amazed that wasnt an ejection

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:40 pm

Down to the 3rd string long snapper which somehow still isn't the starting center

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:46 pm

The 3rd string TE wins an impromptu LS contest

by Number-25 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:47 pm

I thought the Eagles would go for it there on 4th and 1... against our defense I really liked their chances of converting it and it would have drained the clock.

by GSC Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:49 pm

You shouldve rooted for it because we'd have stalled in the redzone and lost

by Number-25 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 9:04 pm

Plenty of time for the Eagles to snatch the win here.

by Lowlandbrit Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:45 pm

Jeff Fisher must really want that record.

by Number-25 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:30 am

Remember when we had a debate about whether Seattle was the best team in the NFC....

Also, why does Jeff Fisher have a job?

by skins4ever Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:34 am

GSC wrote:Down to the 3rd string long snapper which somehow still isn't the starting center

Different physical skillset. Center is primarily a blocker who's longest snap is normally 5 yards. A long snapper has to snap 7 and 15 yards with speed and accuracy. It's usually guys with a damn sight more flexibility than the center.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:03 am

Lowlandbrit wrote:Jeff Fisher must really want that record.

I've never seen a start to the game like the Rams. Just utterly hilariously bad

by GSC Mon 12 Dec 2016, 9:24 am

GSC wrote:You shouldve rooted for it because we'd have stalled in the redzone and lost

Called it

by Number-25 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:24 am

Yeah, must admit, I didn't see the strip-sack coming. Had the feel of yet another late game concession by the Redskins defense.... was expecting the Eagles to out-Redskins us.

by GSC Mon 12 Dec 2016, 2:17 pm

At least Wentz is awesome, I can settle for that until the roster is rebuilt.

I don't see how Jeff Fisher can return next year. likewise Chip Kelly.

by Number-25 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 3:10 pm

Sorry, have just spotted a typo in my last post... should have said WASN'T expecting the Eagles to out-Redskins us!! Hope you didn't take it the wrong way and was thinking I was having a dig at the Eagles - genuinely was expecting to you get the TD from the moment Thompson scored for us.

Yeah, Wentz is going to be fine - there was too much hype around him early in the season but he's going to have a good career once he gets some decent WRs and a starting O-Line.

I hope you don't get DeSean in the off-season though... really interesting decision coming up for the Redskins on what to do with him, Garcon and of course, Cousins.

by GSC Mon 12 Dec 2016, 4:14 pm

DeSeans on a charm offensive. Howie gave him his big deal here and seems to like Pederson.

Sounds like he's the odd man out at the moment.

by **Pr4wn** Mon 12 Dec 2016, 4:29 pm

Tampa held the league's number 1 offense to no touchdowns and three picks. We haven't won five in a row since 2002.

by GSC Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:03 pm

Sneaky good SNF next week.

Dallas might only have a half game lead next week

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:41 pm

I can't see Tampa going into Dallas and keeping it close - Dallas are such a better home team than road team

Had some good primetime matchups after some stinkers to start the season - Baltimore/Pats tonight should be a real good one. Honestly can't call which way it'll go

by Lowlandbrit Mon 12 Dec 2016, 6:09 pm

GSC wrote:I don't see how Jeff Fisher can return next year.

What if he wins out for some 7-9 bs?

by **Pr4wn** Mon 12 Dec 2016, 6:10 pm

Tampa is a far better road team than home team. In our five game win streak we've beaten KC in Arrowhead.

Not saying we're going to pull it off for sure, but Tampa continues to be underrated.

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