No prospect of eastern Europe joining in 6 Nations

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 12:24 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-2016-no-prospect-of-eastern-europe-joining-in-best-tournament-a6840196.html#commentsDiv

Way to crush all hope for other nations in Europe. Whats the point in even developing rugby in other European countries?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 1:37 pm

propdavid_london wrote:It perhaps should though.  
As I recall, Italy was admitted to the 6N after they had beaten a number of the original 5 members.  Same with Argentina being admitted to the then Tri-Nations off the back of a number of exceptionally good WC showings.  

Give Georgia a couple of tests against tier 1 nations each season for the next 3yrs (mainly 6N sides) and if they are competitive then there is an argument for inclusion.  

Although 7 Nations doesn't have the same ring to it! I do think there should be a relegation and promotion system with the next tier European competition.

They certainly weren't comparative in their last outing against a Tier 1 nation or lets be honest Scotland are probably Tier 2...

IMO Georgia should get matchups in the AI's with the 6N teams 3 or 4 a season at a minimum.
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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 1:37 pm

Rugger....How could and should Italy have been better supported? Its difficult when so many of their top players play for teams in France! Is it a funding issue for their top sides?

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 1:41 pm

Agree that they should earn the right to be at the 6N. Not just buy a ticket.
It depends on how much stock we want to place on IRB rankings! For me, the issue is resolved by giving them the chance to prove their quality against top level opo. Then we can talk about 6N participation.

Maybe a playoff game with the bottom 6N side!

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 1:42 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Rugger....How could and should Italy have been better supported?  Its difficult when so many of their top players play for teams in France! Is it a funding issue for their top sides?

If I had the answer to that I probably wouldn't be working in my day job.

I want to say something but having typed up a couple of paragraphs and reading it back I realised it was just waffle. Lemme think about it and I'll try and offer a sensible opinion later.

The playing abroad thing shouldn't hold you back. Hogg aside, arguably Scotland's best players all play outside Scotland, Laidlaw, Maitland, Richie Gray, Barclay.

Since Scotland only has 2 pro teams we have to be able to export these players otherwise the next generation will have nowhere to go.
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Post by Sin é on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 2:19 pm

I remember reading an article about rugby in Italy which said that the big problem Italy has is that rugby is not played in schools and poor skills at youth level. To try and address this, they have invested heavily in youth academies (about 12 of them as far as I can recall ) and they have recruited Steve Aboud (formerly of IRFU) as an ''elite youth performance director role whereby he will oversee the training of players and coaches in youth grades up to under 20.''

I suspect it will be a few years before this will bear fruit (which is what Conor O'Shea says).
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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 2:39 pm

Its a tough market to bust into.....perhaps more than any other 6N side. Italy is such a football focused nation that it has barriers that other nations don't.
Yes England is Football dominant, probably same for Scotland - but there has been a rugby base in these countries for a long time that has gradually grown. Ireland has to contend with GAA and football but still has a long standing supporter base of RU.

What are the pro-facilities in Georgia? Is there a side competing in the Amlin? If not then that surely is a start - last few years there have been Romanian sides, Siberian sides, other oddly named Italian teams - So surely that would be a better start point for Georgia other than direct inclusion into the 6N.

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Post by PenfroPete on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 6:19 pm

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Post by international198 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 8:36 pm

If they beat Wales next November then they will deserve to be in the Six Nations, IMO.

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Post by international198 on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 8:54 pm

Allow Georgia and Japan to join the Six Nations to make it the Eight Nations and have no rest weekends.

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Post by Guest on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 9:02 pm

Sin é wrote:I remember reading an article about rugby in Italy which said that the big problem Italy has is that rugby is not played in schools and poor skills at youth level. To try and address this, they have invested heavily in youth academies (about 12 of them as far as I can recall ) and they have recruited Steve Aboud (formerly of IRFU) as an ''elite youth performance director role whereby he will oversee the training of players and coaches in youth grades up to under 20.''

I suspect it will be a few years before this will bear fruit (which is what Conor O'Shea says).  

I believe they said before the Italy v Wales game that there are more youth players in Italy than in Wales. So there are plenty of young players and rugby participation.

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 9:11 pm

Id love to see a comparison of rugby player numbers and developmental set up between Argentina and Italy. Italy have flat lined developmentally while Argentina have threatened the best, especially at RWC. I expect playing in the RC gives them exponential leverage in terms of development, sad that it hasn't done the same for Italy playing in the 6 Nations but then, that is perhaps the reason.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 8:58 am

international198 wrote:If they beat Wales next November then they will deserve to be in the Six Nations, IMO.

No, they won't. One isolated victory against a 6N team isn't enough. Georgia need to consistently beat 6N opposition to be included. Their last outing against 6N opposition was a prison shaming. They have a long way to go.
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Post by Scottrf on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 9:11 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: Georgia need to consistently beat 6N opposition to be included.
But Italy don't?

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 9:20 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
international198 wrote:If they beat Wales next November then they will deserve to be in the Six Nations, IMO.

No, they won't. One isolated victory against a 6N team isn't enough. Georgia need to consistently beat 6N opposition to be included. Their last outing against 6N opposition was a prison shaming. They have a long way to go.

Georgia lost by less away to Scotland than Italy did at home to Ireland (who also lost away in Scotland).

They only lost by 1 more point than Italy lost by when playing Wales, but again Italy were at home.

Without advocating for a straight swap or promotion/relegation, it should be noted that if Georgia aren't strong enough for the Six Nations, than neither are Italy quite frankly.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 9:28 am

Scottrf wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote: Georgia need to consistently beat 6N opposition to be included.
But Italy don't?

In their run up to inclusion in the six nations Italy beat:

Ireland away in 97 22-37
France home in 97 40–32
Scotland home in 97 25-21
England away in 97 narrow loss (23-15) with a Troncon try disallowed.

(thanks wikipedia)

Georgia will have to emulate this sort of feat to merit inclusion. So thats a match with 4 6N teams and win 3 of them. To be honest I'm not sure they would even beat Italy.
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Post by Scottrf on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 9:31 am

Fair enough that was shortly after Rugby Union turned professional. Italy are a long way off that with 17 years of benefit of being in the competition and teams in the Pro 12.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 9:33 am

Scottrf wrote:Fair enough that was shortly after Rugby Union turned professional. Italy are a long way off that with 17 years of benefit of being in the competition and teams in the Pro 12.

I get what you are saying, but surely if the 6N isn't developing Italy, would it not be hubris to think that Georgia would come in and perform any differantly?
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Post by Scottrf on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 9:34 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Fair enough that was shortly after Rugby Union turned professional. Italy are a long way off that with 17 years of benefit of being in the competition and teams in the Pro 12.

I get what you are saying, but surely if the 6N isn't developing Italy, would it not be hubris to think that Georgia would come in and perform any differantly?
I'd prefer 5 Nations.

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