Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

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Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 10 Feb 2016, 2:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

With Warburton, I can only conclude that they like him as captain because of how he deals with referees. He's very respectful towards them.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 12:51 pm

GavinDragon wrote:But in legal terms what are they? Are they even a business? And if they are, why do the WRU allow all the funds to flow in and out of NRFC accounts?

They are part of the group of companies, so yes they are a business.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RubyGuby on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:25 pm

Griff wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:It was a mistake having the Dragons as a region to begin with no matter who pulls the strings -  the interest, population and history is just not there. The Region should have been a merger with the Capital City and we should have had a Valley Commandos region encompassing great sides with large fan bases from Neath and Pontypridd - Politics prevailed and we are left with the Dragons who do their best and give absolute 100% in front of poor crowds - Just bad planning thumbsup

Not sure I agree with a couple of points.

History? As much or as little as the Ospreys if you mean regional rugby. If you're talking about pre-regional, then Ebbw Vale and Newport RFCs have as much as Neath and Swansea.

Population: Newport is the 3rd most populous town/city, double the size of the 4th place town (Wrexham). The population of Gwent is over 560,000. That's 1/6th of the population of the whole country! It also used to be the case that Gwent was the most densely populated in terms of rugby clubs, with more clubs per head than anywhere else in Wales. Not sure if it's still true.

Llanelli: now there's somewhere that's sparsely populated!!!

Scrap us due to results or lack of suitable investors, sure. But it would be folly to do away with the dragons based on population.

Griff - I'm looking at Rugby Populations and following - Neath and Pontypridd have always had large followings in the towns and I'm sure both would have embraced a Region that meant something to them. Prior to Regionalism these teams were very successful and revered as having a physical and ruthless edge. Ebbw Vale and Newport have rarely challenged since the 60's and as a consequence have produced far less international players. As for the Scarlets, they should have combined with Swansea to form a Region that capitalises on both fan bases. I would love The Dragons to become successful but history suggests that from both a playing perspective and a fan base that is highly unlikely - For me its bad planning. Happy to differ here that's what the board is about thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 1:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:But in legal terms what are they? Are they even a business? And if they are, why do the WRU allow all the funds to flow in and out of NRFC accounts?

They are part of the group of companies, so yes they are a business.

But when one could (?) invest in NRFC, which in effect run the NGD, would one not have total control in real terms? I mean, what power can the WRU yield with their 50%?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:04 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
Griff wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:It was a mistake having the Dragons as a region to begin with no matter who pulls the strings -  the interest, population and history is just not there. The Region should have been a merger with the Capital City and we should have had a Valley Commandos region encompassing great sides with large fan bases from Neath and Pontypridd - Politics prevailed and we are left with the Dragons who do their best and give absolute 100% in front of poor crowds - Just bad planning thumbsup

Not sure I agree with a couple of points.

History? As much or as little as the Ospreys if you mean regional rugby. If you're talking about pre-regional, then Ebbw Vale and Newport RFCs have as much as Neath and Swansea.

Population: Newport is the 3rd most populous town/city, double the size of the 4th place town (Wrexham). The population of Gwent is over 560,000. That's 1/6th of the population of the whole country! It also used to be the case that Gwent was the most densely populated in terms of rugby clubs, with more clubs per head than anywhere else in Wales. Not sure if it's still true.

Llanelli: now there's somewhere that's sparsely populated!!!

Scrap us due to results or lack of suitable investors, sure. But it would be folly to do away with the dragons based on population.

Griff - I'm looking at Rugby Populations and following - Neath and Pontypridd have always had large followings in the towns and I'm sure both would have embraced a Region that meant something to them. Prior to Regionalism these teams were very successful and revered as having a physical and ruthless edge. Ebbw Vale and Newport have rarely challenged since the 60's and as a consequence have produced far less international players. As for the Scarlets, they should have combined with Swansea to form a Region that capitalises on both fan bases. I would love The Dragons to become successful but history suggests that from both a playing perspective and a fan base that is highly unlikely - For me its bad planning. Happy to differ here that's what the board is about thumbsup

Is this a wum? Newport challenged for the WP and won the Welsh Cup around the turn of the century. Pontypool were very sucessful in the 80's (granted pre pro era). Poor planning was allowing Llanelli and Cardiff to stand alone - but the WRU didnt have the money to fight the litigation battle that would have followed. Ironically, Pontypridd were part of the group of clubs who initially resisted the WRU's attempts to go provincial/regional - they have reaped what they have sowed in my opinion and there refusal to host Blues LV games a few seasons back was the final nail in their coffin.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RubyGuby on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:23 pm

Neath RFC

Club honours[edit]
Welsh Club Champions: 1909/10, 1910/11, 1928/29, 1933/34, 1934/35, 1946/47, 1966/67, 1986/87, 1988/89, 1989/90
Welsh Premier Division: 1990/91, 1995/96, 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2007/08, 2009/10
Welsh Cup: 1971/72, 1988/89, 1989/90, 2003/04, 2007/08, 2008/09
Welsh Cup Finalists: 1983/84, 1987/88, 1992/93, 1995/96, 2000/01, 2005/06, 2012/13
Snelling Sevens 1964, 1970
Principality Premiership Play Off Champions: 2009/2010



Pontypridd RFC

Club Honours[edit]

Western Mail Welsh Championship Champions – 1962/63, 1975/76, 1977/78, 1978/79
WRU Merit Table Champions – 1975/76
WRU Merit Table Runners Up – 1977/78, 1978/79
Welsh Premier Division Champions – 1996/97, 2011/12, 2012/13, 2013/14, 2014/15
Welsh Premier Division 1st Place - 2010/11 (Play-Off Runners Up)
Welsh Premier Division Runners Up – 1994/95, 1998/99
Welsh Cup Champions – 1995/96, 2001/02, 2005/06, 2010/11, 2012/13, 2013/14
Welsh Cup Runners Up – 1978/79, 1994/95, 2004/05, 2007/08, 2011/12, 2014/15
Champions Challenge Cup Winners – 1996/97
WRU Challenge Trophy Winners - 1997/98
WRU Challenge Trophy Runners-Up - 1998/99
Heineken European Cup Quarter-Finalists - 1998/99
European Rugby Shield Runners Up – 2001/02
European Rugby Shield Semi-Finalists- 2002/03
British & Irish Cup Semi-Finalists - 2010/11, 2013/14
Abercynon 7's Tournament Winners - 2008, 2009, 2010
WRU National 7's Tournament Winners - 2013
WRU National 7's Tournament Runners Up - 2014, 2015


Newport RFC

Club honours[edit]
South Wales Cup 1878, 1879, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1890.[15]
Unofficial Welsh Club Champions; 1894–95; 1895–96; 1902–03; 1909–10; 1911–12; 1919–20; 1922–23; 1950–51; 1955–56; 1961–62; 1968–69;
Snelling Sevens 1954, 1956, 1957, 1959, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1967, 1985.
Welsh Cup 1977, 2001.
Welsh Division One Winners 1990–91[16]
Welsh Premier League Winners 2003–04.

It speaks for itself - Dragons should never have had a region thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:24 pm

Neath have a region. Ponty had one - it wasn't viable because they're no city of Newport.

Smile

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:25 pm

RubyGuby wrote:It was a mistake having the Dragons as a region to begin with no matter who pulls the strings -  the interest, population and history is just not there. The Region should have been a merger with the Capital City and we should have had a Valley Commandos region encompassing great sides with large fan bases from Neath and Pontypridd - Politics prevailed and we are left with the Dragons who do their best and give absolute 100% in front of poor crowds - Just bad planning thumbsup

The history is not there? In Newport? What a claim.

Pontypridd have never had a large fan base. They couldn't sell out a 7.7k capacity stadium in the days when the games had away fans. They also went into administration in 2003, years after Neath went bust. Neither club had a future in professional rugby. Neither could pay their way.

So it was nothing to do with politics and everything to do with finances. The idea that small towns could sustain pro rugby whilst you tried to merge the Eastern economic 'powerhouses' of Newport and Cardiff is fanciful. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:26 pm

Griff wrote:
Edit:
'Interest' - we're getting similar attendances to The Blues in all fairness.  Just a few hundred in it for the same opponents.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.  But not a great deal of difference.

Really?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:27 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Is this a wum? Newport challenged for the WP and won the Welsh Cup around the turn of the century. Pontypool were very sucessful in the 80's (granted pre pro era). Poor planning was allowing Llanelli and Cardiff to stand alone - but the WRU didnt have the money to fight the litigation battle that would have followed. Ironically, Pontypridd were part of the group of clubs who initially resisted the WRU's attempts to go provincial/regional - they have reaped what they have sowed in my opinion and there refusal to host Blues LV games a few seasons back was the final nail in their coffin.

How was it 'poor planning'? For starters, NO club wanted to merge with Cardiff.

You're right about Pontypridd, however.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:28 pm

GavinDragon wrote:

But when one could (?) invest in NRFC, which in effect run the NGD, would one not have total control in real terms? I mean, what power can the WRU yield with their 50%?

The same power, should they want to, that allowed them to stall Ever 2033 Ltd (Celtic Warriors).

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Griff wrote:
Edit:
'Interest' - we're getting similar attendances to The Blues in all fairness.  Just a few hundred in it for the same opponents.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.  But not a great deal of difference.

Really?

Yes, just looked at the Pro12 website results section.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:43 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Neath RFC

Club honours[edit]
Welsh Club Champions: 1909/10, 1910/11, 1928/29, 1933/34, 1934/35, 1946/47, 1966/67, 1986/87, 1988/89, 1989/90
Welsh Premier Division: 1990/91, 1995/96, 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2007/08, 2009/10
Welsh Cup: 1971/72, 1988/89, 1989/90, 2003/04, 2007/08, 2008/09
Welsh Cup Finalists: 1983/84, 1987/88, 1992/93, 1995/96, 2000/01, 2005/06, 2012/13
Snelling Sevens 1964, 1970
Principality Premiership Play Off Champions: 2009/2010



Pontypridd RFC

Club Honours[edit]

Western Mail Welsh Championship Champions – 1962/63, 1975/76, 1977/78, 1978/79
WRU Merit Table Champions – 1975/76
WRU Merit Table Runners Up – 1977/78, 1978/79
Welsh Premier Division Champions – 1996/97, 2011/12, 2012/13, 2013/14, 2014/15
Welsh Premier Division 1st Place - 2010/11 (Play-Off Runners Up)
Welsh Premier Division Runners Up – 1994/95, 1998/99
Welsh Cup Champions – 1995/96, 2001/02, 2005/06, 2010/11, 2012/13, 2013/14
Welsh Cup Runners Up – 1978/79, 1994/95, 2004/05, 2007/08, 2011/12, 2014/15
Champions Challenge Cup Winners – 1996/97
WRU Challenge Trophy Winners - 1997/98
WRU Challenge Trophy Runners-Up - 1998/99
Heineken European Cup Quarter-Finalists - 1998/99
European Rugby Shield Runners Up – 2001/02
European Rugby Shield Semi-Finalists- 2002/03
British & Irish Cup Semi-Finalists - 2010/11, 2013/14
Abercynon 7's Tournament Winners - 2008, 2009, 2010
WRU National 7's Tournament Winners - 2013
WRU National 7's Tournament Runners Up - 2014, 2015


Newport RFC

Club honours[edit]
South Wales Cup 1878, 1879, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1890.[15]
Unofficial Welsh Club Champions; 1894–95; 1895–96; 1902–03; 1909–10; 1911–12; 1919–20; 1922–23; 1950–51; 1955–56; 1961–62; 1968–69;
Snelling Sevens 1954, 1956, 1957, 1959, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1967, 1985.
Welsh Cup 1977, 2001.
Welsh Division One Winners 1990–91[16]
Welsh Premier League Winners 2003–04.

It speaks for itself - Dragons should never have had a region    thumbsup


Firstly, you forget that Ponty had a region but f***** it up and couldn't sustain it. So you now think that the Dragons should be scrapped so that they can have another go? Odd.

They had a much smaller population and catchment. You think 'The Valleys' is some big happy family. Parochial is the term! In reality only Ponty people would really want to support a Ponty based 'region' playing in ponty colours at Sardis. Would Ebbw Vale people really support them in droves? No, so attendances will be low.

Pre-regional rugby Newport RFC were 2nd, 3rd and 2nd in those 3 preceding years. Ponty were not as good.

Attendances - pre-regional rugby Ponty and Neath were getting low thousands (1500s, 2k 3k, etc). Newport attendances were much better. Look it up. The matches and attendances are all there to be seen.

History - your copy and paste from Wiki is missing lots. You've included runners up stuff for others but not for us. Odd. Selective writing?! thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:45 pm

Griff wrote:

Yes, just looked at the Pro12 website results section.

PrO'12 home average crowd sizes 15/16:

Cardiff = 6,813 after 4 games
NGD = 5,116 after 7 games

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:48 pm

But what is the legal mechanism by which they can exert power on NRFC? If I remember rightly, and please correct me if I am wrong, there are/were three companies NRFC Ltd, RP Ltd and Gwent Dragons Ltd. So which Ltd company does the WRU have 50% ownership of?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:53 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
Is this a wum? Newport challenged for the WP and won the Welsh Cup around the turn of the century. Pontypool were very sucessful in the 80's (granted pre pro era). Poor planning was allowing Llanelli and Cardiff to stand alone - but the WRU didnt have the money to fight the litigation battle that would have followed. Ironically, Pontypridd were part of the group of clubs who initially resisted the WRU's attempts to go provincial/regional - they have reaped what they have sowed in my opinion and there refusal to host Blues LV games a few seasons back was the final nail in their coffin.

How was it 'poor planning'? For starters, NO club wanted to merge with Cardiff.

You're right about Pontypridd, however.

A poor decision then. I doubt any clubs wanted to merge.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:55 pm

GavinDragon wrote:But what is the legal mechanism by which they can exert power on NRFC? If I remember rightly, and please correct me if I am wrong, there are/were three companies NRFC Ltd, RP Ltd and Gwent Dragons Ltd. So which Ltd company does the WRU have 50% ownership of?

Dragons Rugby ltd is the company that heads the group. It is the company into which the WRU pays the money (£3,666,479 in 2014 accounts). Dragons Rugby ltd then passes on that money to NRFC ltd. Dragons Rugby ltd is the company in which the WRU holds 50% of the ordinary shares.

It is in Dragons Rugby ltd that the WRU could (in theory and in practice) put on the brakes before the money is then paid out to the other companies in respect of the jobs they do.

In 2014, Dragons Rugby ltd paid Hazell back £400,000.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:57 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
A poor decision then. I doubt any clubs wanted to merge.

Not true. Swansea did. Neath and Bridgend did, too. Newport were keen to, as well.

All had a moan about the terms of a merger but all, bar Llanelli and Cardiff, knew they had no trading future without merging. All knew that the Loyalty Agreement terms would see them shut.

The anomaly is always Swansea as they took voluntary administration in order to protect Swansea RFC, not because they were skint. Davies and co always wanted a bigger 'Swansea Bay' type team and that's what they have achieved through clever marketing.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 2:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:But what is the legal mechanism by which they can exert power on NRFC? If I remember rightly, and please correct me if I am wrong, there are/were three companies NRFC Ltd, RP Ltd and Gwent Dragons Ltd. So which Ltd company does the WRU have 50% ownership of?

Dragons Rugby ltd is the company that heads the group. It is the company into which the WRU pays the money (£3,666,479 in 2014 accounts). Dragons Rugby ltd then passes on that money to NRFC ltd. Dragons Rugby ltd is the company in which the WRU holds 50% of the ordinary shares.

It is in Dragons Rugby ltd that the WRU could (in theory and in practice) put on the brakes before the money is then paid out to the other companies in respect of the jobs they do.

In 2014, Dragons Rugby ltd paid Hazell back £400,000.

Thanks. So why do all the major transactions, player wages etc go through NRFC accounts. And as all the money flows through NRFC Ltd anyway, why do they bother with Dragons Rugby Ltd? Surely Dragons Rugby Ltd doesn't own NRFC Ltd? Apologies if I am being dim when it comes to company law here.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:00 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Griff wrote:

Yes, just looked at the Pro12 website results section.

PrO'12 home average crowd sizes 15/16:

Cardiff = 6,813 after 4 games
NGD = 5,116 after 7 games

Why not look at the opposition faced? Much better and more accurate measure. Difficult to do after so few games agains the same opposition though. Couldn't find attendances for Dragons last nights game v Connacht so have divided by 6 rather than 7.

Blues:
Zebre 3658
Glasgow 5704
Connacht 5824
Scarlets 11,720
=

Dragons:
Zebre 4159
Treviso 4940
Ulster 4483
Munster 5579
Blues 8226
Leinster 4303
= 5281 average.

So you're buoyed a bit by a bumper derby. As our ground can only hold some 9k after the redevelopment it's hard to compare, but I don't think there's a great deal in it. As the line that's always pulled out on here goes: "like 2 bald men fighting over a comb!"



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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
A poor decision then. I doubt any clubs wanted to merge.

Not true. Swansea did. Neath and Bridgend did, too. Newport were keen to, as well.

All had a moan about the terms of a merger but all, bar Llanelli and Cardiff, knew they had no trading future without merging. All knew that the Loyalty Agreement terms would see them shut.

The anomaly is always Swansea as they took voluntary administration in order to protect Swansea RFC, not because they were skint. Davies and co always wanted a bigger 'Swansea Bay' type team and that's what they have achieved through clever marketing.

I won't ask you to explain the mechanics of that, unless you have ample time on your hands.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:03 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Thanks. So why do all the major transactions, player wages etc go through NRFC accounts. And as all the money flows through NRFC Ltd anyway, why do they bother with Dragons Rugby Ltd? Surely Dragons Rugby Ltd doesn't own NRFC Ltd? Apologies if I am being dim when it comes to company law here.

In effect, it's easier (probably) to make one lump sum from Dragons Rugby to NRFC instead of charging things back and forth between the two companies. For instance, Dragons Rugby doesn't pay any rent to NRFC to use the ground. NRFC doesn't charge for admin staff or groundsmen etc.

Running it through NRFC allows NRFC to 'control' without having to have the WRU micro manage or agree the expenditure. It allows the WRU to be sleeping partners.

Of course, as they did with CW, the WRU could change that if they wanted to.

What should happen is that the WRU share of DR ltd should be up for sale. It would make sense for NRFC to buy it, or the Directors of NRFC to buy it. And, if I were NRFC shareholders, I would be looking to sell the NRFC share in DR Ltd too.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:08 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
I won't ask you to explain the mechanics of that, unless you have ample time on your hands.

Costs were rising in the game as wages grew. Clubs were already carrying debts, Neath had already gone through. Caerphilly had decided to be strictly 'semi-pro'.

The Loyalty Agreement allowed a minimum payment to the clubs based on things like league position and TV money. The smaller clubs knew that the minimum they were guaranteed wasn't enough to see them compete with the wealthier clubs like Cardiff. Look at Pontypridd's league positions in the years running up to 2003 - they couldn't even qualify for the HEC.

In short, the Loyalty Agreement would have seen the smaller clubs sent on a starvation mission, the mismatches would have got larger and, at the end of the LA, the WRU would have done whatever it wanted to do.

And that would have been basing domestic rugby in the four centres it is presently based, so the smaller clubs knew they had to merge in order to be able to just have a slice of pro rugby. What then happened, of course, is that Pontypridd went into administration, Ebbw Vale couldn't afford to run Gwent Dragons so bombed out, Caerphilly remained out of it, Neath was sold to Cuddy and Hawkes.

What we now have is the four old big clubs of Wales running the show. The Turks and Cardiff stood alone, NRFC run the NGD and the Swansea boys vastly outnumber Cuddy and the new shareholders of the Os (their larger Swansea Bay team).

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:10 pm

Griff wrote:

So you're buoyed a bit by a bumper derby.  As our ground can only hold some 9k after the redevelopment it's hard to compare, but I don't think there's a great deal in it.  As the line that's always pulled out on here goes: "like 2 bald men fighting over a comb!"



You've ignored the Connacht crowd from your figures. That attendance makes the NGD average 5,116. It's 1700 short of Cardiff's average. Only one of Cardiff's games, the first of the season, is below the NGD average.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RubyGuby on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:24 pm

For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:26 pm

RubyGuby wrote:For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

13 years of viability proves that the arbitrary figure of 10k is a complete fabrication. You've just chosen 10k as you know Rodney Parade isn't large enough.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:29 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Griff wrote:

So you're buoyed a bit by a bumper derby.  As our ground can only hold some 9k after the redevelopment it's hard to compare, but I don't think there's a great deal in it.  As the line that's always pulled out on here goes: "like 2 bald men fighting over a comb!"



You've ignored the Connacht crowd from your figures. That attendance makes the NGD average 5,116. It's 1700 short of Cardiff's average. Only one of Cardiff's games, the first of the season, is below the NGD average.

I didn't ignore it.  I clearly stated I couldn't find it.  I looked on the Pro12 site, the bbc article and Sky.  None of them has it.  What is it, out of interest?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/35541409
http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php#BcxBHuFUKtLXIfAk.97
http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/dragons-vs-connacht/preview/75713


Last edited by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:30 pm

RubyGuby wrote:For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

You need to scrap them all then. Right now. thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RiscaGame on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:33 pm

The attendance was 4100 or so. It's on the Argus report usually

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RiscaGame on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:41 pm

4128

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 3:53 pm

Griff wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Griff wrote:

So you're buoyed a bit by a bumper derby.  As our ground can only hold some 9k after the redevelopment it's hard to compare, but I don't think there's a great deal in it.  As the line that's always pulled out on here goes: "like 2 bald men fighting over a comb!"



You've ignored the Connacht crowd from your figures. That attendance makes the NGD average 5,116. It's 1700 short of Cardiff's average. Only one of Cardiff's games, the first of the season, is below the NGD average.

I didn't ignore it.  I clearly stated I couldn't find it.  I looked on the Pro12 site, the bbc article and Sky.  None of them has it.  What is it, out of interest?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/35541409
http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php#BcxBHuFUKtLXIfAk.97
http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/dragons-vs-connacht/preview/75713

4128
Source = NGD website

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:00 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
Thanks. So why do all the major transactions, player wages etc go through NRFC accounts. And as all the money flows through NRFC Ltd anyway, why do they bother with Dragons Rugby Ltd? Surely Dragons Rugby Ltd doesn't own NRFC Ltd? Apologies if I am being dim when it comes to company law here.

In effect, it's easier (probably) to make one lump sum from Dragons Rugby to NRFC instead of charging things back and forth between the two companies. For instance, Dragons Rugby doesn't pay any rent to NRFC to use the ground. NRFC doesn't charge for admin staff or groundsmen etc.

Running it through NRFC allows NRFC to 'control' without having to have the WRU micro manage or agree the expenditure. It allows the WRU to be sleeping partners.

Of course, as they did with CW, the WRU could change that if they wanted to.

What should happen is that the WRU share of DR ltd should be up for sale. It would make sense for NRFC to buy it, or the Directors of NRFC to buy it. And, if I were NRFC shareholders, I would be looking to sell the NRFC share in DR Ltd too.

If NRFC bought the WRU's share in DR Ltd, they could dissolve the company couldn't they?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:17 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
If NRFC bought the WRU's share in DR Ltd, they could dissolve the company couldn't they?

Yep, after moving its assets.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RubyGuby on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:23 pm

Griff wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

You need to scrap them all then.  Right now. thumbsup

Joking aside there might be some merit in that although the Ospreys seem to be settled although poorly supported I agree. All I want Griff is what's best for welsh rugby and at the moment I'm not convinced we have it right - Maybe there should only be 3 Regions and a developmental Region - Not sure what the answer is although sustained success at any region will bring in the crowds

thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
If NRFC bought the WRU's share in DR Ltd, they could dissolve the company couldn't they?

Yep, after moving its assets.

What assets?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:31 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
If NRFC bought the WRU's share in DR Ltd, they could dissolve the company couldn't they?

Yep, after moving its assets.

What assets?

Specifically the 25% share of PRW and, I assume, the shareholding in EPRC

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:34 pm

Easily enough done I guess. So, if there was someone or a number of people willing and able to buy the Dragons, would the WRU sell?


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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:36 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
Griff wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

You need to scrap them all then.  Right now. thumbsup

Joking aside there might be some merit in that although the Ospreys seem to be settled although poorly supported I agree. All I want Griff is what's best for welsh rugby and at the moment I'm not convinced we have it right - Maybe there should only be 3 Regions and a developmental Region - Not sure what the answer is although sustained success at any region will bring in the crowds

thumbsup

We already have this in all but name

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:38 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Easily enough done I guess. So, if there was someone or a number of people willing and able to buy the Dragons, would the WRU sell?


Who knows? The WRU changed on November 1st, 2015.

The question is: why isn't that shareholding permanently up for sale?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:Easily enough done I guess. So, if there was someone or a number of people willing and able to buy the Dragons, would the WRU sell?


Who knows? The WRU changed on November 1st, 2015.

The question is: why isn't that shareholding permanently up for sale?

Who knows? But my perception since the WRU changed is that they would be unlikely to want to sell it to an entity which may wish to drop all pretence of a region (i.e Gwent from the name).

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:44 pm

GavinDragon wrote:

Who knows? But my perception since the WRU changed is that they would be unlikely to want to sell it to an entity which may wish to drop all pretence of a region (i.e Gwent from the name).

I'm not sure that I agree. I think that Phillips knows full well that the only 'regional' bit is the development pathway and that the pro game must do whatever it needs to get the cash in.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:45 pm

Time may tell I suppose, But I suppose if I think that and you think that then he is an excellent politician.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by PhilBB on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 4:49 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Time may tell I suppose, But I suppose if I think that and you think that then he is an excellent politician.

No idea of the basis for your opinion, but you know the basis of mine.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Griff on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 5:07 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
Griff wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

You need to scrap them all then.  Right now. thumbsup

Joking aside there might be some merit in that although the Ospreys seem to be settled although poorly supported I agree. All I want Griff is what's best for welsh rugby and at the moment I'm not convinced we have it right - Maybe there should only be 3 Regions and a developmental Region - Not sure what the answer is although sustained success at any region will bring in the crowds

thumbsup

Maybe, but certainly it makes no sense to me to close the dragons and instead give it to Ponty or Neath based on population, 'history' or interest, as was the original discussion. As was already pointed out, Newport trumps Neath and Ponty on population and catchment, trumped them on attendances pre-regional rugby and weren't exactly a weak team in Wales. They were one of our best of the Welsh teams over the last few decades. If you want to bring up history, like what happens in the 70's is some sort of indicator that a team should get regional status, then we beat the All Blacks so that beats winning the Welsh 7s cup! Plus, no f*cker at Ponty or Neath would be willing to bankroll this would they? That's the 4th ingredient - funding.

But what is a development region anyway? Just a place for kids to play? Our pro12 partners, TV and competition funders might have something to say about that. And what's the point? Better for players to develop playing and training with grown ups than in a team of kids. They graduate from academies where they do that. Why stick them altogether again? What will they learn from drubbings? And before you say it, the Dragons don't get many drubbings! thumbsup thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RubyGuby on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 5:33 pm

I can't agree that Newport have been one of the best welsh teams over the last 4-5 decades but am happy to differ here - thumbsup

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Stone Motif on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 5:50 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
I actually don't think we are fit enough. Yes the replacement props gave away the penalties which lead to their tries, but our kicking was due to the fact we were blowing out of our arses and having to work hard and commit numbers just to retain the ball, so when we did retain it we didn't have enough players on their feet in decent positions to attack. Also, from 60 minutes on we started losing our shape in defence and basic errors crept in.

Yes I am sure Connacht have  bigger budget than us and they do have some good players now in Aki and Ah you etc. But fitness is the one thing that any coach can instill in a professional team and it should not be a differentiator  between teams at this level. Sadly, from what I hear, we have a coach who is still delivering from a 90's playbook and tbh it shows!

Dee Hewitt and Warren were excellent again (How long until the first two are prised away from us?) and Phil Price won 3 penalties at the scrum Vince ;-)

Not sure I buy this. Our first choice players have an enormous workload for pro rugby players, in many cases there is simply no credible alternative. Many of them are kids/small for pro players, Nic Cudd is probably fit as a butcher's dog but collisions will inevitably be taxing for him as a smaller player who rarely gets adequate rest and rotation. Consider Carl Froch - an absolute machine - versus David Haye.... equally well conditioned but you would see the smaller man tire quickest. Not so sure elite 'fitness' is such a universally achievable target either, particularly in what is becoming a sport for genetic freaks at the top level.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Stone Motif on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

RubyGuby wrote:For Regional rugby to be sustainable we need to attract attendances of 10k plus - That's not going to happen in Newport - The others have the potential to achieve that and build on it but Newport doesn't IMO. I love the Dragons but as a region it makes no sense to me and their history and lack of "success" as a Region would support that. thumbsup

No, the amount of people in the stadium is an irrelevance. TV and digital incomes are the biggest game in town. Pre-clusterfwc Newport were by far and away closer to your finger in the air break even attendance than most

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Cardiff Dave on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 8:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:The NGD chose to play this Thursday.

What else was on offer?

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by bedfordwelsh on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 6:46 am

Living over the wrong side of the bridge for my sins there are people on here who have a far better knowledge and understanding of the day to day goings on but at age and schools level I know the Dragons do a hell of a lot within the wider Gwent Region.

I have said for a long time now that all Regions should concentrate on the next generations of supporters and fans and the kids are that generation.

They have little or no understanding of the old club system other than what sometimes bitter relatives have told them, all they want to do is go and watch their current Welsh heroes play.

There is a very good long standing friend of mine back home in Ebbw who sweared black and blue he would never step foot inside RP to watch the Dragons play. Until his grandson was selected along with the RTBs U11s to be flag bearers at one of our home games against Leinster few seasons ago and its normally my mate he takes his grandson to all the rugby.

He went and through gritted teeth admitted he actually enjoyed it but what made it for him was the way his grandson enjoyed it and the wya the kids were treated by the coaches and team in general, he couldn't praise them enough.

So whatever old codgers like us may or may not think and despite performances on the pitch they are doing certain things right and that level.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by RiscaGame on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:44 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The NGD chose to play this Thursday.

What else was on offer?

Friday or Sunday. It's not as if we were dictated to play Thursday by tv. We chose Thursday as it gave us the best chance of protecting the pitch with County playing today (so that ruled out yesterday). We could have feasibly done a double header with the RFC again too, but it probably wasn't worth the hassle nor ideal having two games on the same day at this time of year.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

Post by Cardiff Dave on Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:07 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The NGD chose to play this Thursday.

What else was on offer?

Friday or Sunday. It's not as if we were dictated to play Thursday by tv. We chose Thursday as it gave us the best chance of protecting the pitch with County playing today (so that ruled out yesterday). We could have feasibly done a double header with the RFC again too, but it probably wasn't worth the hassle nor ideal having two games on the same day at this time of year.

I see.
Listened to a bit of the game on the radio. Was stated that there was no TMO. How refreshing.

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Re: Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

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