Qualification for Europe

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Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:15 am

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Griff on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:22 am

The problem is that without guaranteed entry for at least some Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian sides, it's not really fair as the English and French have guaranteed entry X 6 each. If (big if) the whole English Premiership went to pot and all 12 teams were rubbish they'd still get 6 places (or whatever the number is) regardless. So why not 1 place for us lot. Not much to ask in comparison, is it?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:26 am

But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right


Last edited by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : -)

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:09 am

True Raven wrote:Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality?  Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

This. As if our league wasn't a poor enough product, it awards one of it's bottom teams a place in RCC1

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:16 am

Really which one ???

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:24 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Really which one ???

Whichever Italian team

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:29 am

What competition are you talking about ?
All Pro12 team that don't qualify for the Champions Cup play in the Challenge Cup
same for the Aviva and the Top 14.

No, first XV, Pro12 team plays in a lower competition than that, so the Pro12 is no different in that regard.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by BamBam on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:30 am

This is going to go well...

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:35 am

Just trying to clear up a red Herring before returning to the main event.

Having said that True Ravens 2nd post suggest it could become another - 'qualification by league' verses a 'qualification by Union' debate
Which we have done to death and some - hopefully not

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:41 am

No I meant qualify for the champions cup and I have only been here for a month or so so didn't know its been done to death however after watching scarlets vs Edinburgh and seeing the score between ulster and Glasgow and with ospreys and Munster on Sunday just thought we should reward places in the champions cup to those teams that have earned the right to play in it

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:54 am

geoff999rugby wrote:What competition are you talking about ?
All Pro12 team that don't qualify for the Champions Cup play in the Challenge Cup
same for the Aviva and the Top 14.

No, first XV, Pro12 team plays in a lower competition than that, so the Pro12 is no different in that regard.

I clearly said RCC1, the Champions Cup for the hard of thinking

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 10:56 am

Well for what it is worth we musn't kill all prospects of some countries qualifying and I personally would modify it slightly

Keep the existing rule unless, Scotland, or Italy, have both teams in the bottom three.
In that case that country would not get a Championship Cup place.

This would still guarantee 3 of the 4 countries are represented and would set the bar pretty low for the 4th country.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:00 am

Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:What competition are you talking about ?
All Pro12 team that don't qualify for the Champions Cup play in the Challenge Cup
same for the Aviva and the Top 14.

No, first XV, Pro12 team plays in a lower competition than that, so the Pro12 is no different in that regard.

I clearly said RCC1,  the Champions Cup for the hard of thinking

Well for the hard of understanding that makes you point totally bogus.
The reason is simply because there is no relegation from the Pro12 and is a zero measure of quality

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by VinceWLB on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:07 am

I thought Zebre had turned a corner looking at their results the last few months where they looked a very serious outfit and should have arguably beaten Gloucester and Munster and then came yesterday's result..

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Seagultaf on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:09 am

The changes to the Top level European club competition had nothing to with improving the standard, it was about funnelling more of the available money into the already rich French and English clubs. And it has worked spectacularly well with no Pro 12 teams in the knock out stages this season, meaning all the financial rewards go to English and French rugby. We now effectively have a two tier system, with the rich countries getting richer and the poorer countries getting poorer. How long will it be before this starts to be translated into the international game?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by VinceWLB on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:11 am

Seagultaf wrote:The changes to the Top level European club competition had nothing to with improving the standard, it was about funnelling more of the available money into the already rich French and English clubs. And it has worked spectacularly well with no Pro 12 teams in the knock out stages this season, meaning all the financial rewards go to English and French rugby. We now effectively have a two tier system, with the rich countries getting richer and the poorer countries getting poorer. How long will it be before this starts to be translated into the international game?

I said i will not watch any more second of that crap tournament this season and i hope everyone in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy do the same.

Thankfully higher standard super rugby will be on by then.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Notch on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:19 am

True Raven wrote:No I meant qualify for the champions cup and I have only been here for a month or so so didn't know its been done to death however after watching scarlets vs Edinburgh and seeing the score between ulster and Glasgow and with ospreys and Munster on Sunday just thought we should reward places in the champions cup to those teams that have earned the right to play in it

Probably agree. It's just frustrating- I believe that the Italians should be included in the 6N, in the Champions Cup and developed as it is in the best interests of global rugby. But they simply aren't making progress. We're right to continue to invest in Italian Rugby but it would really assuage my doubts if they took the opportunities they're being given.

Mind you, if Glasgow or Munster do manage to finish outside the Top 6 they'll have no-one to blame but themselves. Next weekends game between those two is huge...

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:33 am

Seagultaf wrote:The changes to the Top level European club competition had nothing to with improving the standard, it was about funnelling more of the available money into the already rich French and English clubs. And it has worked spectacularly well with no Pro 12 teams in the knock out stages this season, meaning all the financial rewards go to English and French rugby. We now effectively have a two tier system, with the rich countries getting richer and the poorer countries getting poorer. How long will it be before this starts to be translated into the international game?

How exactly would this have come into effect so quickly and how have we seen it?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:56 am

Notch wrote:
True Raven wrote:No I meant qualify for the champions cup and I have only been here for a month or so so didn't know its been done to death however after watching scarlets vs Edinburgh and seeing the score between ulster and Glasgow and with ospreys and Munster on Sunday just thought we should reward places in the champions cup to those teams that have earned the right to play in it

Probably agree. It's just frustrating- I believe that the Italians should be included in the 6N, in the Champions Cup and developed as it is in the best interests of global rugby. But they simply aren't making progress. We're right to continue to invest in Italian Rugby but it would really assuage my doubts if they took the opportunities they're being given.

Mind you, if Glasgow or Munster do manage to finish outside the Top 6 they'll have no-one to blame but themselves. Next weekends game between those two is huge...

Yes you could include the ospreys in that as well considering we made the playoffs last year but i don't think playing in the challenge cup harms these teams though.

The dragons haven't finished in the top half of the table for the last ten years but have made back to back quarter finals in the challenge cup. The fans get to see the team challenge for a trophy and the young guns in the team get to play attacking rugby instead of defensive rugby. The young talent there are developing nicely (Amos,Morgan,Hewitt) and they just need a couple of top signings to challenge for the top 7

Compare this to Treviso who's fans watch them get pummelled in the champions cup. Its not a bad thing to be in the challenge cup if its a trophy you can compete in

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 11:59 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:What competition are you talking about ?
All Pro12 team that don't qualify for the Champions Cup play in the Challenge Cup
same for the Aviva and the Top 14.

No, first XV, Pro12 team plays in a lower competition than that, so the Pro12 is no different in that regard.

I clearly said RCC1,  the Champions Cup for the hard of thinking

Well for the hard of understanding that makes you point totally bogus.
The reason is simply because there is no relegation from the Pro12 and is a zero measure of quality

Rightio. So because I think the better teams in the league should be rewarded that makes me hard of understanding.

You should be the next guy in charge of the PrO'12. If anyone can breathe some life into this moribund product it's you.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 12:13 pm

'As if our league wasn't a poor enough product, it awards one of it's bottom teams a place in RCC1'

The RCC is there to guarantee a place, for all teams, from the 3 senior leagues European competitions.
The quality of the Pro12 as a product is such that those teams not in the Championship Cup are still amongst the best of the rest, and that includes the team finishing bottom.

Those teams should be there because the teams from other European leagues are not as good.
As such it is reasonably accurate of the quality available for a second tier competition - the team finishing bottom of the Pro12 are in the 25th to 48th best team in Europe group

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 12:20 pm

VinceWLB wrote:I thought Zebre had turned a corner looking at their results the last few months where they looked a very serious outfit and should have arguably beaten Gloucester and Munster and then came yesterday's result..
Zebre were missing 13 players and the Italians have always been sh1te away from home. They are becoming a competitive team at home though.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 12:24 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:I thought Zebre had turned a corner looking at their results the last few months where they looked a very serious outfit and should have arguably beaten Gloucester and Munster and then came yesterday's result..
Zebre were missing 13 players and the Italians have always been sh1te away from home. They are becoming a competitive team at home though.

And fair play to them, let's hope the improvement continues but despite the improvement they shouldn't be guaranteed a spot in the champions cup next season when there are better teams above them

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 12:27 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:'As if our league wasn't a poor enough product, it awards one of it's bottom teams a place in RCC1'

The RCC is there to guarantee a place, for all teams, from the 3 senior leagues European competitions.
The quality of the Pro12 as a product is such that those teams not in the Championship Cup are still amongst the best of the rest, and that includes the team finishing bottom.

Those teams should be there because the teams from other European leagues are not as good.
As such it is reasonably accurate of the quality available for a second tier competition - the team finishing bottom of the Pro12 are in the 25th to 48th best team in Europe group

Treviso/Zebre should get an automatic spot regardless of league position, yes or no?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 12:31 pm

If the 2 competitions are 24 strong each then yes because they are 2 of the best 48 teams in Europe.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 12:34 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:If the 2 competitions are 24 strong each then yes because they are 2 of the best 48 teams in Europe.

Well done champ, you shift those goalposts

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 1:55 pm

You really are a rude individual - in what way have I shifted the goalposts?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 3:26 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:You really are a rude individual - in what way have I shifted the goalposts?

Ignoring the point of the OP in favour of making some vapid argument about the number of teams that participate in the two competitions.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Cardiff Dave on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:46 pm

Griff wrote:The problem is that without guaranteed entry for at least some Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian sides, it's not really fair as the English and French have guaranteed entry X 6 each. If (big if) the whole English Premiership went to pot and all 12 teams were rubbish they'd still get 6 places (or whatever the number is) regardless. So why not 1 place for us lot. Not much to ask in comparison, is it?

Out of the 3 leagues, the top finishers from each should qualify for the top Euro cup comp and the rest should chuck it/kick it about in the Bic Biro. That's how it should be. If supporters don't like it then they should nag their club to make sure their team play better.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 10:31 am

Looking at the Pro12 at the moment, we could well see the side in 6th place slipping out of the top tier euro comp. At the moment (taking games in hand etc into account) is feasible that it could end up the top 5, and then best Scottish and best Italian sides qualifying.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Notch on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:40 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Looking at the Pro12 at the moment,  we could well see the side in 6th place slipping out of the top tier euro comp.  At the moment (taking games in hand etc into account) is feasible that it could end up the top 5, and then best Scottish and best Italian sides qualifying.

You're right, it is possible. I think Glasgow will make a late charge however. Definitely see them in the Top 6. Was genuinely upset we gifted them that losing bonus point.

Munster could be in big trouble though.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Kingshu on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 3:02 pm

True Raven wrote:But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right

You could then say the top league in Italy should get at least one place then, would you really rather see the National Championship of Excellence Champions get into RCC or one of Zebra or Treviso?


It goes back to what the RCC is?

Is the RCC supposed to be the best teams of each Union playing the best teams of others Union?

Its easy for Unions to decide on their best teams to enter through domestic league positions in relation to each other.

Or is it supposed to be the best teams in Europe v the best teams in Europe?
Who decides who the best team in Europe are then?
Some Italians may feel Rugby Calvisano are one of the best teams in Europe as Italian champions, should they be allowed in, the FIR feel however finishes higher in the Pro 12 Zebra or Treviso is better.
Some may feel the Italians do not have any teams good enough to enter?
Really it boils done to who decides which teams are best?

Why top 6 from each League? Who's to say 6th in England is better than 7th in France?

Anyone remember the old rankings someone used to do (like the international rankings) where it took all your games in the League and Europe and ranked teams based on this.

Surly if you want the best in Europe v the best you have to use a table like this rather than Leagues v Leagues which we currently have?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by marty2086 on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 3:23 pm

Kingshu wrote:
True Raven wrote:But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right

You could then say the top league in Italy should get at least one place then, would you really rather see the National Championship of Excellence Champions get into RCC or one of Zebra or Treviso?


It goes back to what the RCC is?

Is the RCC supposed to be the best teams of each Union playing the best teams of others Union?

Its easy for Unions to decide on their best teams to enter through domestic league positions in relation to each other.

Or is it supposed to be the best teams in Europe v the best teams in Europe?
Who decides who the best team in Europe are then?
Some Italians may feel Rugby Calvisano are one of the best teams in Europe as Italian champions, should they be allowed in, the FIR feel however finishes higher in the Pro 12 Zebra or Treviso is better.
Some may feel the Italians do not have any teams good enough to enter?
Really it boils done to who decides which teams are best?

Why top 6 from each League? Who's to say 6th in England is better than 7th in France?

Anyone remember the old rankings someone used to do (like the international rankings) where it took all your games in the League and Europe and ranked teams based on this.

Surly if you want the best in Europe v the best you have to use a table like this rather than Leagues v Leagues which we currently have?

What about those performing well in the RCC? Should the quarter/semi finalists receive automatic qualification the following season given that they have outperformed some of the top teams from across Europe?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 3:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
True Raven wrote:But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right

You could then say the top league in Italy should get at least one place then, would you really rather see the National Championship of Excellence Champions get into RCC or one of Zebra or Treviso?


It goes back to what the RCC is?

Is the RCC supposed to be the best teams of each Union playing the best teams of others Union?

Its easy for Unions to decide on their best teams to enter through domestic league positions in relation to each other.

Or is it supposed to be the best teams in Europe v the best teams in Europe?
Who decides who the best team in Europe are then?
Some Italians may feel Rugby Calvisano are one of the best teams in Europe as Italian champions, should they be allowed in, the FIR feel however finishes higher in the Pro 12 Zebra or Treviso is better.
Some may feel the Italians do not have any teams good enough to enter?
Really it boils done to who decides which teams are best?

Why top 6 from each League? Who's to say 6th in England is better than 7th in France?

Anyone remember the old rankings someone used to do (like the international rankings) where it took all your games in the League and Europe and ranked teams based on this.

Surly if you want the best in Europe v the best you have to use a table like this rather than Leagues v Leagues which we currently have?

What about those performing well in the RCC? Should the quarter/semi finalists receive automatic qualification the following season given that they have outperformed some of the top teams from across Europe?

No one should decide who enters the champions cup, that's the point. The teams that enter it should be the teams that deserve to be there by finishing in a qualifying position in the league.

If the Ospreys fail to automatically qualify, we shouldn't be handed a 'pity spot' to have a token welsh team in becasue we don't deserve to be competing in the cup.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by marty2086 on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 4:24 pm

True Raven wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
True Raven wrote:But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right

You could then say the top league in Italy should get at least one place then, would you really rather see the National Championship of Excellence Champions get into RCC or one of Zebra or Treviso?


It goes back to what the RCC is?

Is the RCC supposed to be the best teams of each Union playing the best teams of others Union?

Its easy for Unions to decide on their best teams to enter through domestic league positions in relation to each other.

Or is it supposed to be the best teams in Europe v the best teams in Europe?
Who decides who the best team in Europe are then?
Some Italians may feel Rugby Calvisano are one of the best teams in Europe as Italian champions, should they be allowed in, the FIR feel however finishes higher in the Pro 12 Zebra or Treviso is better.
Some may feel the Italians do not have any teams good enough to enter?
Really it boils done to who decides which teams are best?

Why top 6 from each League? Who's to say 6th in England is better than 7th in France?

Anyone remember the old rankings someone used to do (like the international rankings) where it took all your games in the League and Europe and ranked teams based on this.

Surly if you want the best in Europe v the best you have to use a table like this rather than Leagues v Leagues which we currently have?

What about those performing well in the RCC? Should the quarter/semi finalists receive automatic qualification the following season given that they have outperformed some of the top teams from across Europe?

No one should decide who enters the champions cup, that's the point.  The teams that enter it should be the teams that deserve to be there by finishing in a qualifying position in the league.

If the Ospreys fail to automatically qualify, we shouldn't be handed a 'pity spot' to have a token welsh team in becasue we don't deserve to be competing in the cup.

You're failing to grasp my point as no one is deciding Im asking if that was part of the qualification process, the 8 teams in the QFs this year are surely the best 8 teams in Europe? So shouldn't they automatically requalify for next season overriding the league positions? Should Northampton not be in there when they may out if they don't win the ERCC

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Kingshu on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 4:45 pm

True Raven wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
True Raven wrote:But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right

You could then say the top league in Italy should get at least one place then, would you really rather see the National Championship of Excellence Champions get into RCC or one of Zebra or Treviso?


It goes back to what the RCC is?

Is the RCC supposed to be the best teams of each Union playing the best teams of others Union?

Its easy for Unions to decide on their best teams to enter through domestic league positions in relation to each other.

Or is it supposed to be the best teams in Europe v the best teams in Europe?
Who decides who the best team in Europe are then?
Some Italians may feel Rugby Calvisano are one of the best teams in Europe as Italian champions, should they be allowed in, the FIR feel however finishes higher in the Pro 12 Zebra or Treviso is better.
Some may feel the Italians do not have any teams good enough to enter?
Really it boils done to who decides which teams are best?

Why top 6 from each League? Who's to say 6th in England is better than 7th in France?

Anyone remember the old rankings someone used to do (like the international rankings) where it took all your games in the League and Europe and ranked teams based on this.

Surly if you want the best in Europe v the best you have to use a table like this rather than Leagues v Leagues which we currently have?

What about those performing well in the RCC? Should the quarter/semi finalists receive automatic qualification the following season given that they have outperformed some of the top teams from across Europe?

No one should decide who enters the champions cup, that's the point.  The teams that enter it should be the teams that deserve to be there by finishing in a qualifying position in the league.

If the Ospreys fail to automatically qualify, we shouldn't be handed a 'pity spot' to have a token welsh team in becasue we don't deserve to be competing in the cup.

But someone has decided who enters the Champions cup, if Ospreys finished 6th and qualify but the teams that finished 7th 8th 9th 10 in France were far better team would it not be pity spots?

Same in your example if the French league became super powerful would the Aviva and Pro 12 having 6 spots not be seen as pity spots as well?

Why top 6 from each League if one or two leagues are weaker? Surely then that league(s) finds itself where Italy are now, with people saying they don't deserve any teams in the RCC?

IMO there are only two fair ways to do it, each Union is guaranteed at least one stop and others decided by League (as it is now)
or
A European ranking table is produced (like the world rankings table) and at the end of the season the top 20 teams qualify for RCC no matter which league they play in.

Could end up with 9 English 4 Irish, 7 French for example?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:20 am

Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:You really are a rude individual - in what way have I shifted the goalposts?

Ignoring the point of the OP in favour of making some vapid argument about the number of teams that participate in the two competitions.

You need to read the OP again - it specifically mentions qualification for the Champions Cup only - no reference to the Challenge Cup.
Therefore your post is irrelevant to the point made.

As I mentioned my view is qualification for the Champions is the bottom 3 places in the Pro12 should be ineligible - this would guarantee 3 countries from the league having representation but not 4.
Regarding the Challenge Cup as I said all teams in these 3 leagues should be in the competition as they are all, probably, in the top 48 teams in Europe.


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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Griff on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:49 am

Geoff, if you go back up you'll see that Stone agrees with the OP and clearly states that he thinks it's wrong that an Italian team can finish towards the bottom yet still get a place in the Champions Cup (RCC). You then replied with this, and you seem to have had cross wires since:

"What competition are you talking about ?
All Pro12 team that don't qualify for the Champions Cup play in the Challenge Cup
same for the Aviva and the Top 14.

No, first XV, Pro12 team plays in a lower competition than that, so the Pro12 is no different in that regard."


Stone wants a meritocracy, and you seem to be in agreement!

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Griff on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:56 am

I think I've managed to unpick it Geoff: are you reading RCC as challenge cup? I think of RCC as being short for rugby champions cup. That's what Stone was talking about too. I think that's where he confusion lies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_European_Rugby_Champions_Cup

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 11:31 am

Kingshu wrote:
True Raven wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
True Raven wrote:But in your scenario it would be the top 6 that would be in the top European competition as they were the six best teams.  Imagine now their league was the top 5 who qualify plus Newcastle (who usually finish near the bottom) because they want to grow the game up north.  It doesn't seem right

You could then say the top league in Italy should get at least one place then, would you really rather see the National Championship of Excellence Champions get into RCC or one of Zebra or Treviso?


It goes back to what the RCC is?

Is the RCC supposed to be the best teams of each Union playing the best teams of others Union?

Its easy for Unions to decide on their best teams to enter through domestic league positions in relation to each other.

Or is it supposed to be the best teams in Europe v the best teams in Europe?
Who decides who the best team in Europe are then?
Some Italians may feel Rugby Calvisano are one of the best teams in Europe as Italian champions, should they be allowed in, the FIR feel however finishes higher in the Pro 12 Zebra or Treviso is better.
Some may feel the Italians do not have any teams good enough to enter?
Really it boils done to who decides which teams are best?

Why top 6 from each League? Who's to say 6th in England is better than 7th in France?

Anyone remember the old rankings someone used to do (like the international rankings) where it took all your games in the League and Europe and ranked teams based on this.

Surly if you want the best in Europe v the best you have to use a table like this rather than Leagues v Leagues which we currently have?

What about those performing well in the RCC? Should the quarter/semi finalists receive automatic qualification the following season given that they have outperformed some of the top teams from across Europe?

No one should decide who enters the champions cup, that's the point.  The teams that enter it should be the teams that deserve to be there by finishing in a qualifying position in the league.

If the Ospreys fail to automatically qualify, we shouldn't be handed a 'pity spot' to have a token welsh team in becasue we don't deserve to be competing in the cup.

But someone has decided who enters the Champions cup, if Ospreys finished 6th and qualify but the teams that finished 7th 8th 9th 10 in France were far better team would it not be pity spots?

Same in your example if the French league became super powerful would the Aviva and Pro 12 having 6 spots not be seen as pity spots as well?

Why top 6 from each League if one or two leagues are weaker? Surely then that league(s) finds itself where Italy are now, with people saying they don't deserve any teams in the RCC?

IMO there are only two fair ways to do it, each Union is guaranteed at least one stop and others decided by League (as it is now)
or
A European ranking table is produced (like the world rankings table) and at the end of the season the top 20 teams qualify for RCC no matter which league they play in.

Could end up with 9 English 4 Irish, 7 French for example?

Kingshu, what a ridiculous suggestion.
By that logic, we would/could have a European Champions League with all of the Barclays Premier League teams, Real Madrid and Barcelona!

Surely the long term ambition is to get a European wide tournament, with a lot of strong teams from a lot of countries. Yes this will take time, but creating a competition based on Club rankings would be ridiculous. We could end up just watching the Top 14 masquerading as the ECC.

I personally feel that the Italians aren't helping the Pro12 full stop, I think they'd be better off in France or creating a comp of their own with other European Clubs.
Sort of counter to what I just said, but what I'd do.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by wayne on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:13 pm

Personally, I'm more than happy with how things stand from the Guinness League, the top team from each constituent country and then the top teams in the League.
There is a distinct possibility that my team (Ospreys) finishing in 6th position and NOT qualifying, top 5 consisting of 4 Irish and the Scarlets, with the 2 Scottish and Italian teams below us, I'm more than happy with that conclusion.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:59 pm

The Guinness League
The PrO'12 League

Do any Welsh actually know the proper name of the league that the Welsh regions play in?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by wayne on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 1:04 pm

There really is an exciting conclusion to our league (Guinness) coming about, I can see certain qualifications not being finalised until the final day.
Connacht      Ospreys (h), Edinburgh (a), Leinster (h), Ulster (a), Munster (h), Treviso (a) Glasgow (h)                          4 home 3 away
Leinster        Zebre (a), Ospreys (h), Glasgow (a), Connacht (a) Munster (h) Edinburgh (h), Ulster (a) Treviso (h)           4 home 4 away
Ulster           Scarlets (h), Blues (a), Zebre (h), Glasgow (a), Connacht (h), Zebre (a), Leinster (h) Ospreys (a)              4 home 4 away
Scarlets        Ulster (a) Edinburgh (a), Treviso(h), Ospreys (a), Blues (h), Glasgow (h), Dragons (a) Munster (a)              3 home 5 away
Edinburgh      Scarlets (h) Connacht (h), Dragons (a), Zebre (h), Leinster (a), Munster (a), Blues (h)                             4 home 3away
Ospreys        Connacht (a), Leinster (a), Scarlets (h), Dragons (a) Treviso (h), Blues (a) Ulster (h)                                3 home 4 away
Munster        Treviso (a), Dragons (h), Blues (a), Zebre (h), Leinster (a) Connacht (a) Edinburgh (h), Scarlets (h)            4 home 4 away
Glasgow        Dragons (a), Blues (h), Leinster (h), Ulster (h), Treviso (a), Zebre (a), Scarlets (a), Zebre (h), Connacht (a) 4home 5 away
Blues            Ulster (h), Glasgow (a), Munster (h), Treviso (h), Scarlets (a), Dragons (h), Ospreys (h), Edinburgh (a)        5 home 3 away
I think 3 decided by League placings are nailed on already, the rest are open to question and hopefully it will go down to the final weekend

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by wayne on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 1:08 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The Guinness League
The PrO'12 League

Do any Welsh actually know the proper name of the league that the Welsh regions play in?
Whichever of the names you've quoted, I know which League is being talked about, and when the second name is quoted I know that person doesn't want to be in that League Pot Very Happy .

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Stone Motif on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 1:14 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The Guinness League
The PrO'12 League

Do any Welsh actually know the proper name of the league that the Welsh regions play in?

I just refer to it as "that sh1te", as good a nomenclature as any

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 2:17 pm

The qualification ruling should entice the lower teams to challenge the status quo. So far only Connacht have done that.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by DirtyRucker7 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 4:53 pm

Wow is the pro12 still a thing? Personally can't wait until we ditch the hangers on and keep it a quality competition between us and the French with some Super rugby games introduced. Time to cut out the bad and down right embarrassment that is called the pro12.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 5:42 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The Guinness League
The PrO'12 League

Do any Welsh actually know the proper name of the league that the Welsh regions play in?

I just refer to it as "that sh1te", as good a nomenclature as any

Are you, Philbb, and chunky Norwich all the same person or just share and express very similar views in similar language?

Nomenclature refers to a system of names or terms, I thought.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 7:36 pm

Griff wrote:Geoff, if you go back up you'll see that Stone agrees with the OP and clearly states that he thinks it's wrong that an Italian team can finish towards the bottom yet still get a place in the Champions Cup (RCC). You then replied with this, and you seem to have had cross wires since:

"What competition are you talking about ?
All Pro12 team that don't qualify for the Champions Cup play in the Challenge Cup
same for the Aviva and the Top 14.

No, first XV, Pro12 team plays in a lower competition than that, so the Pro12 is no different in that regard."


Stone wants a meritocracy, and you seem to be in agreement!

Accept what you are saying but I clearly stated before that I do not think any of the bottom 3 should get into the Champions cup before he picked me up on it

Also when both competitions have the same shorthand (RCC) - it would be better to spell it out to distinquish

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 7:40 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:The qualification ruling should entice the lower teams to challenge the status quo. So far only Connacht have done that.

Cardiff and Dragons are enticed to challenge the status quo - they just cant because they are not good enough.
Only the Italians get a free ride - hence my suggestion

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Re: Qualification for Europe

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