Qualification for Europe

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Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 9:15 am

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the pro12 table and seeing how close the teams are for European qualification, isn't it about time where we award the top 7 with qualification regardless of nationality? Right now its an exciting league where every game means something in terms of the playoffs or Europe yet one team will miss out as an Italian team will automatically get an undeserving spot!

They haven't earned the right to be in the the top European tournament nor have they shown they can compete so wouldn't the second tier be more their level.

I understand there's an argument where playing better teams improves players but no one can prove that based on the Italian teams.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by marty2086 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

1 yes things were proven, but repeated legal threats stopped it being published.

You sure? I mean, if there was a proven breach then no legal threat would have been valid.

It is if its a matter of interpretation

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by marty2086 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:41 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Looking at expenditure isn't very reliable either when club owners are paying using means that won't be recorded.

The thing about Welsh internationals playing for Cardiff is that they don't play for Moldova, and will be on a decent wage.

Don't now if Cardiff get less revenue than Connacht. I doubt it, but it does seem a pathetic argument.

What is being paid that won't be recorded?

Why is it a 'pathetic argument' if Connacht get more than Cardiff, but when it comes to Toulon and Racing etc. then it's ok for the Irish to moan about 'buying titles'?

That'd be like a Welshman complaining about the amount the IRFU put into the provinces and complaining the WRU don't put enough into the regions?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by PhilBB on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:
That'd be like a Welshman complaining about the amount the IRFU put into the provinces and complaining the WRU don't put enough into the regions?

Recognising and complaining aren't the same thing.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Kingshu on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:03 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

Rugby Unions support Professional teams shock Shocked

In Wales that would be a shock.

But the point is that Connacht's increase in spending power had nothing to do with Connacht's own efforts which, of course, further makes the league devalued.

I don't know Phil why you keep trying to devalue Connachts achievements this season, ok they have had increased investment from the IRFU, but they were under funded for years and now its increased to build them up to being a self sustainable top team. In recent years they have doubled their average attendance, are upgrading their training facilities, have increased their sponsorship deals, and in return more players from Connacht will represent Ireland, Henshaw is the main one at present, 4 others are with the Ireland squad and a few more knocking on the door, that appears to be a worthwhile investment. Also while the investment has increased it still doesn't put them level with the majority of the teams they are above in the table.

Other teams have received investment in recent years and failed to capitalise on it, Connacht on the other hand have made the most of everything, and I think that putting it down to spending power is insulting to the players, coaches, back room team, academy, CEO, marketing and everyone else who has put in the actual hard work to lift a team normally at the bottom of the table to the very top.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Munchkin on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

1) You do know there was a big AP fallout recently over salary cap, and players being paid outside of AP rules?

2) It's pathetic because it's you living in your fantasy land, feeding your own obsession, amd making things up as you go along.

Hope that's helps   Very Happy

1. I know that no case could be proven that any salary cap regulation was breached.

2. Nothing is being made up, but I can understand why you'd want to avoid the question.

I didn't avoid anything. My response was sarcastically reminding you of the AP fiasco surrounding monies being paid to players. Money that wouldn't have been recorded in the clubs accounts.
The tedious thing about you is your willingness to turn a blind eye to the underhanded tactics employed by wealthy owners, and invent conspiracies about the Provinces, based on nothing else but what you can't see. Yes, that's making things up.

P's if you don't think certain AP clubs have been cheating the salary cap, you live in dreamland.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:34 pm

Players get paid, coaches get paid, and the best ones get paid the most. As teams become more and more 'professional', the ones with the most money will win the most titles.

The old Heineken Cup marginally favoured the Pro12 teams because of historical seeding and the relative amounts of money received. Those benefits just about offset the revenue advantages that the AP and T14 enjoyed from their Leagues, so the playing field was reasonably level in regard to sporting competition.
Now the ERC Cup is purely about who has the biggest wallet, and there can be only one of those. The free market economy means the competition is now skewed to far fewer sides than before and the one with the biggest number of the best players will usually hold sway. The rest of the sides can do nothing but look on in envy, and wait for a passing prince and his billions.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:41 pm

But the English clubs were always (supposed to be) playing to their salary caps which have and would have gone up regardless. The ones that wanted to spend always had the money to do so so no real difference. Ditto for the French. Difference is that a few of the English clubs have youngish squads who are just getting better and would have anyway. Looking at Saracens and Wasps in particular. Exeter just very well coached by the future England manager.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by PhilBB on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:31 pm

Kingshu wrote:
I don't know Phil why you keep trying to devalue Connachts achievements this season, ok they have had increased investment from the IRFU, but they were under funded for years and now its increased to build them up to being a self sustainable top team. In recent years they have doubled their average attendance, are upgrading their training facilities, have increased their sponsorship deals, and in return more players from Connacht will represent Ireland, Henshaw is the main one at present, 4 others are with the Ireland squad and a few more knocking on the door, that appears to be a worthwhile investment. Also while the investment has increased it still doesn't put them level with the majority of the teams they are above in the table.

Other teams have received investment in recent years and failed to capitalise on it, Connacht on the other hand have made the most of everything, and I think that putting it down to spending power is insulting to the players, coaches, back room team, academy, CEO, marketing and everyone else who has put in the actual hard work to lift a team normally at the bottom of the table to the very top.

You'd have to be extremely chippy to read anything and believe it to be 'trying to devalue Connacht's achievements'. All I've done is explained how they have been able to 'achieve'.

The IRFU investment in Connacht is now equal to the other four, isn't it? Bar the national contract players for whom the IRFU pay directly 100%. So I'm not sure why you think 'it doesn't put them level with the majority of teams they are above in the table'.

It is the spending power that has allowed them to employ the players, coaches, back room team, academy, CEO, marketing and everyone else.

Money comes first.

So, please stop being chippy and please try to understand the rather basic point being made.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by PhilBB on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:32 pm

Munchkin wrote:
I didn't avoid anything. My response was sarcastically reminding you of the AP fiasco surrounding monies being paid to players. Money that wouldn't have been recorded in the clubs accounts.
The tedious thing about you is your willingness to turn a blind eye to the underhanded tactics employed by wealthy owners, and invent conspiracies about the Provinces, based on nothing else but what you can't see. Yes, that's making things up.

P's if you don't think certain AP clubs have been cheating the salary cap, you live in dreamland.

Sorry, please could you let me know what 'conspiracy' I have invented about the Provinces?

Please do explain.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by PhilBB on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:35 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Players get paid, coaches get paid, and the best ones get paid the most. As teams become more and more 'professional', the ones with the most money will win the most titles.

The old Heineken Cup marginally favoured the Pro12 teams because of historical seeding and the relative amounts of money received. Those benefits just about offset the revenue advantages that the AP and T14 enjoyed from their Leagues, so the playing field was reasonably level in regard to sporting competition.
Now the ERC Cup is purely about who has the biggest wallet, and there can be only one of those. The free market economy means the competition is now skewed to far fewer sides than before and the one with the biggest number of the best players will usually hold sway. The rest of the sides can do nothing but look on in envy, and wait for a passing prince and his billions.

I'm amazed at this narrative that the IRFU didn't spend their way to winning the HEC. Amazed. It flies in the face of the IRFU's own recorded spend.

So the HEC was ALWAYS about the biggest wallet.

Just remember, the IRFU receive MORE per team for its four teams than PRL get per team for its twelve teams, from EPRC.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Munchkin on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:40 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
I didn't avoid anything. My response was sarcastically reminding you of the AP fiasco surrounding monies being paid to players. Money that wouldn't have been recorded in the clubs accounts.
The tedious thing about you is your willingness to turn a blind eye to the underhanded tactics employed by wealthy owners, and invent conspiracies about the Provinces, based on nothing else but what you can't see. Yes, that's making things up.

P's if you don't think certain AP clubs have been cheating the salary cap, you live in dreamland.

Sorry, please could you let me know what 'conspiracy' I have invented about the Provinces?

Please do explain.

The conspiracy that the Provinces have something to hide by not publishing in detail their accounts. At least that's the implication.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Munchkin on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Players get paid, coaches get paid, and the best ones get paid the most. As teams become more and more 'professional', the ones with the most money will win the most titles.

The old Heineken Cup marginally favoured the Pro12 teams because of historical seeding and the relative amounts of money received. Those benefits just about offset the revenue advantages that the AP and T14 enjoyed from their Leagues, so the playing field was reasonably level in regard to sporting competition.
Now the ERC Cup is purely about who has the biggest wallet, and there can be only one of those. The free market economy means the competition is now skewed to far fewer sides than before and the one with the biggest number of the best players will usually hold sway. The rest of the sides can do nothing but look on in envy, and wait for a passing prince and his billions.

I'm amazed at this narrative that the IRFU didn't spend their way to winning the HEC. Amazed. It flies in the face of the IRFU's own recorded spend.

So the HEC was ALWAYS about the biggest wallet.

Just remember, the IRFU receive MORE per team for its four teams than PRL get per team for its twelve teams, from EPRC.

Let's see the breakdown of figures?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by marty2086 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 5:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
That'd be like a Welshman complaining about the amount the IRFU put into the provinces and complaining the WRU don't put enough into the regions?

Recognising and complaining aren't the same thing.

So its up to the WRU to fund the (mostly)privately owned regions yet the IRFU put too much money into their own companies? picard Erm

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:45 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

Rugby Unions support Professional teams shock Shocked

In Wales that would be a shock.

But the point is that Connacht's increase in spending power had nothing to do with Connacht's own efforts which, of course, further makes the league devalued.

How does this devalue the league exactly?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by carpet baboon on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:47 pm

Devalue the league?
The way I see it we all went professional at the same time, some managed it better than others.
While Ireland sorted themselves out and got 3 teams looking to compete with the best, we left one for years to struggle. Now we're in a position to fund all 4 teams, which now , on the face of things looks like we will have all 4 fighting it out for something at the end of the year.

Now compare to the half arsed welsh infighting arguing and bitching between clubs regions and WRU, you can understand why a minority of welsh fans are a little disenfranchised, especially when you see how well the national team has done.

So it's only natural that they lash out at there more successful teams over the sea, especially as now all 4 are getting to the top, and look to run to there English neighbours (the fact the PRL wouldn't touch them is by the by).

But surely if the league has been devalued it's not the Irish who have tried to do things professional for all there regions and national team, but clearly the welsh for ballsing up professionalism.

Now if only they could start to row in the same direction as the rest of us, maybe they will cheer up and see life ain't that bad.

But not sure that's what some want, which is a shame

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:14 pm

It's an interesting concept that those sides that become more professional in their approach are devaluing the League. Some would obviously like a return to baggy shirts, leather balls and awarding three points for a try.

Maybe this site should consider forgetting the internet and be solely based on hand-written correspondence?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by profitius on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:41 pm

It may have gone unnoticed but when talking about Connacht buying their way to the top of the table, how do you explain them being so far ahead of Munster, who have a lot more money?


Even if they are getting more funding these days, so what? The Welsh wanted a more competitive league and with the Scots improving too, you're getting it!

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by wolfball on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:19 am

profitius wrote:It may have gone unnoticed but when talking about Connacht buying their way to the top of the table, how do you explain them being so far ahead of Munster, who have a lot more money?


Even if they are getting more funding these days, so what? The Welsh wanted a more competitive league and with the Scots improving too, you're getting it!

We did buy our way to the top... Have you seen the Connemara mansions of our academy players? Toulon ha, they couldn't afford to buy Connacht's players boots...

Why do people converse with Monsieur Chunké and expect anything more than they got on this thread?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by VinceWLB on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 3:46 am

When Welsh teams play English opposition in a crucial European tie, they barely break 6k either so not buying that league crap.

Welsh fans went to follow wendyball instead.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Griff on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 8:54 am

VinceWLB wrote:When Welsh teams play English opposition in a crucial European tie, they barely break 6k either so not buying that league crap.

Welsh fans went to follow wendyball instead.

Welsh fans didn't go anywhere.  The attendances are about the same as pre-regional rugby.  At least do a bit of research!

Edit: just to add, what is this phenomenon that everyone talks about where rugby fans turn into football fans? How many of YOU, in all honesty, would stop supporting/attending your team (be it Leinster, Edinburgh, Northampton, whoever) because a football side in your area (and in the case of Wales perhaps a few towns or cities away from you) suddenly got promoted. I don't think we have that many sports fans that are that easily 'switched'.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 9:02 am

Griff, also, Ireland have nowhere near the amount of rugby clubs as Wales and they have almost twice the population. 

Ir is simple maths, we have too many rugby clubs/teams and not enough people living in Wales, no other country is like this, we a re unique in the fact that where ever there is a patch of grass, somebody has put a rugby pitch on it and started a club to support. 

In Merthyr alone, my town, there are 55,000 people living here, and there are about 8 rugby clubs.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

Connacht built a heavy lead when the other top 6 contenders lost the majority of their first team squads to the World Cup. We (Ospreys) have been playing catch up ever since.

Fair play to them, its something the Dragons should have taken advantage of

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 1:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Griff, also, Ireland have nowhere near the amount of rugby clubs as Wales and they have almost twice the population. 

Ir is simple maths, we have too many rugby clubs/teams and not enough people living in Wales, no other country is like this, we a re unique in the fact that where ever there is a patch of grass, somebody has put a rugby pitch on it and started a club to support. 

In Merthyr alone, my town, there are 55,000 people living here, and there are about 8 rugby clubs.
How does small rugby clubs effect the support of regions? If anything it should help it.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:02 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Griff, also, Ireland have nowhere near the amount of rugby clubs as Wales and they have almost twice the population. 

Ir is simple maths, we have too many rugby clubs/teams and not enough people living in Wales, no other country is like this, we a re unique in the fact that where ever there is a patch of grass, somebody has put a rugby pitch on it and started a club to support. 

In Merthyr alone, my town, there are 55,000 people living here, and there are about 8 rugby clubs.
How does small rugby clubs effect the support of regions? If anything it should help it.

No football fans of Brentford support Chelsea despite their close proximity.

People feel an affinity towards one team or another so an example that seems to be used on this board often is that Pontypridd fans who support their local team have no affinity for Cardiff Blues.


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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:16 pm

True Raven wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Griff, also, Ireland have nowhere near the amount of rugby clubs as Wales and they have almost twice the population. 

Ir is simple maths, we have too many rugby clubs/teams and not enough people living in Wales, no other country is like this, we a re unique in the fact that where ever there is a patch of grass, somebody has put a rugby pitch on it and started a club to support. 

In Merthyr alone, my town, there are 55,000 people living here, and there are about 8 rugby clubs.
How does small rugby clubs effect the support of regions? If anything it should help it.

No football fans of Brentford support Chelsea despite their close proximity.

People feel an affinity towards one team or another so an example that seems to be used on this board often is that Pontypridd fans who support their local team have no affinity for Cardiff Blues.

Pontypridd are a different story all together but in general it shouldn't effect it. There are plenty of big clubs in Ireland who have been around a lot longer in than the provinces (Cork Con, Clontart, Belvo etc) and prople can easily support both here and I'm sure in Wales too. Also a lot of English football fans support their local team and than a team in the Premiership.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Griff on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:21 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Griff, also, Ireland have nowhere near the amount of rugby clubs as Wales and they have almost twice the population. 

Ir is simple maths, we have too many rugby clubs/teams and not enough people living in Wales, no other country is like this, we a re unique in the fact that where ever there is a patch of grass, somebody has put a rugby pitch on it and started a club to support. 

In Merthyr alone, my town, there are 55,000 people living here, and there are about 8 rugby clubs.
How does small rugby clubs effect the support of regions? If anything it should help it.

I see what you're saying, and in a provincial set-up, where you're a 'Munster Man', etc. then all clubs within that province (and their fans) have an affinity to the provincial team that represents them. Coming from a club structure, every one is a rival. So (just like in football) if you support a second division team then you support that team only, and wouldn't dream of supporting a premier league team as they are a rival. The idea for the regions is meant to be like Ireland's provincial structure, but in reality the regions are still viewed by many, not all (e.g. Bedford on this board) as a foreign entity and a competitor like in the football model.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:57 pm

It's more of a case of not being able to be in two places at once. Everybody is different, most people cannot afford to go to watch their club AND their region, most people do not have the time to do both, especially if your club kicks off at 3pm on a Saturday and the region is playing at 5pm.

For some it's either one or the other.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:58 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How does small rugby clubs effect the support of regions? If anything it should help it.

People do not have the time or money to support both.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 3:00 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Pontypridd are a different story all together but in general it shouldn't effect it. There are plenty of big clubs in Ireland who have been around a lot longer in than the provinces (Cork Con, Clontart, Belvo etc) and prople can easily support both here and I'm sure in Wales too.

There is also twice the population in Ireland.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 3:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Pontypridd are a different story all together but in general it shouldn't effect it. There are plenty of big clubs in Ireland who have been around a lot longer in than the provinces (Cork Con, Clontart, Belvo etc) and prople can easily support both here and I'm sure in Wales too.

There is also twice the population in Ireland.
Population has nothing to do with it, just look at the likes of Oyonnax.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 3:52 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Pontypridd are a different story all together but in general it shouldn't effect it. There are plenty of big clubs in Ireland who have been around a lot longer in than the provinces (Cork Con, Clontart, Belvo etc) and prople can easily support both here and I'm sure in Wales too.

There is also twice the population in Ireland.
Population has nothing to do with it, just look at the likes of Oyonnax.

Population has everything to do with it. picard

Oyonnax as a town has over 24,000 people living there, how many other rugby clubs are there in Oyonnax ? It also has a lot of other towns in VERY close proximity.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Pontypridd are a different story all together but in general it shouldn't effect it. There are plenty of big clubs in Ireland who have been around a lot longer in than the provinces (Cork Con, Clontart, Belvo etc) and prople can easily support both here and I'm sure in Wales too.

There is also twice the population in Ireland.
Population has nothing to do with it, just look at the likes of Oyonnax.

Population has everything to do with it. picard

Oyonnax as a town has over 24,000 people living there, how many other rugby clubs are there in Oyonnax ? It also has a lot of other towns in VERY close proximity.
How many other top rugby clubs are in Cardiff? You can't seriously suggest that Cardiff rfc has an huge impact on the support of the blues? It's hard for people to get behind poor performing teams. I remember the Ospreys getting 10k against Ulster the season after winning the league. The support is there, just need a few good consecutive seasons.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:11 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How many other top rugby clubs are in Cardiff?

You seriously want me to answer that ? 

I will not list them all on here but look at this:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_in_Cardiff


There must be close to 30 clubs in Cardiff alone. For a population of 300K.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:How many other top rugby clubs are in Cardiff?

You seriously want me to answer that ? 

I will not list them all on here but look at this:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_in_Cardiff


There must be close to 30 clubs in Cardiff alone.
I said top rugby clubs as in play in a professional league... These have little to no impact on the support of the blues

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:17 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I said top rugby clubs as in play in a professional league... These have little to no impact on the support of the blues

Yes they do, or do you think everybody in Wales has the time and income to go and watch two rugby teams a weekend ?

I do not know how it is in Ireland, but if you all can do both over there then Ireland must really be the land of milk and honey. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:25 pm

This is the most rediculous excuse yet and I can't believe I'm even discussing this. Anywhere a professional team is based has plenty of local rugby clubs. Otherwise how would there even been a successful club in the first place? These have no impact on attendances, it actually does the exact opposit if anything.

This is like saying the reason Ireland don't sell out AI games is bevause of the provinces...

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:37 pm

The Blues are essentially a Superclub and not a region so I don't understand why a fan of Merthyr (for example) would all of a sudden stop following Merthyr and support Cardiff Blues. Some did because they can follow the Blues on tv and become armchair fans but some want to watch local rugby for their local team despite a fully professional team down the A470. Ebbsfleet football club have supporters who want to follow their local team despite there being better football clubs around to support. Not everyone needs to support the best team

In terms of your Ospreys point about attendances, since Swansea got into the premiership, floating fans decided to watch top flight football instead of top flight rugby as watching Manchester United at the Libery was more appealing than Edinburgh rugby club

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:37 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is the most rediculous excuse yet and I can't believe I'm even discussing this. Anywhere a professional team is based has plenty of local rugby clubs. Otherwise how would there even been a successful club in the first place? These have no impact on attendances, it actually does the exact opposit if anything.

This is like saying the reason Ireland don't sell out AI games is bevause of the provinces...


Look you are not getting this, Wales has 3 times the amount of rugby clubs that Ireland has, yes that's right three times, go and check it up, I have, and half the population.

Now, Wales have 300+ rugby clubs, players alone and just say first team squad average 20 players per team, that is almost 6000 people who will not be going to watch their region because they have commitments elsewhere. Add to this the fans, however many that will go and watch those teams that are not going to be having anything to do with the regions, then add in all the teams that have 2nds, 3rds, veterans, youth, mini, jnr sides and all the people involved it adds up.

Christ, if you add up all the people of every club from premiership right down to WRU league 3 West C, then you might be talking nigh on 100,000 people involved with these teams one way or another that might not have the time or money to support both their club AND their region.

That is not an excuse, it's a fact.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Kingshu on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:It's more of a case of not being able to be in two places at once. Everybody is different, most people cannot afford to go to watch their club AND their region, most people do not have the time to do both, especially if your club kicks off at 3pm on a Saturday and the region is playing at 5pm.

For some it's either one or the other.

So your saying Friday night and Sunday games suit the regions better than Saturday 3pm. Why where there so many complaints about Friday and Sunday, when these are the best times for the regions to pull in big crowds?

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:45 pm

So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.




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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:46 pm

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:It's more of a case of not being able to be in two places at once. Everybody is different, most people cannot afford to go to watch their club AND their region, most people do not have the time to do both, especially if your club kicks off at 3pm on a Saturday and the region is playing at 5pm.

For some it's either one or the other.

So your saying Friday night and Sunday games suit the regions better than Saturday 3pm. Why where there so many complaints about Friday and Sunday, when these are the best times for the regions to pull in big crowds?


No, because some people cannot afford to do both, FFS, I do not know what the living wage in Ireland is, and how much spare time people have on their hands but it must be epic.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:50 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.





Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.


300k people with 30 clubs in the same place, yeah that's what it is like in Ireland.

NOT. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:51 pm

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:It's more of a case of not being able to be in two places at once. Everybody is different, most people cannot afford to go to watch their club AND their region, most people do not have the time to do both, especially if your club kicks off at 3pm on a Saturday and the region is playing at 5pm.

For some it's either one or the other.

So your saying Friday night and Sunday games suit the regions better than Saturday 3pm. Why where there so many complaints about Friday and Sunday, when these are the best times for the regions to pull in big crowds?
Sure there is a thread on the international section complaining about Wales playing on Friday. I don't think there is a day that suits.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.





Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.
I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:00 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

You are not getting this, there are TOO MANY rugby clubs for the amount of people who live here.

What is the population of Dublin ? 500k+?

I would wager that there is nowhere near 30 rugby clubs in Dublin. I bet there are about 10 or 15 at most, with almost twice the population, now see where I am going with this ?

There are more people, with less of a choice, so you will get more fans at the clubs than you would in an area where there is less population and MORE choice.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by True Raven on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:07 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:So this only happens in Wales then? You ever hear of the AIL league? Or the schools cup (regularly gets crowds of 5k plus in Leinster not sure about other provinces)
This happens everywhere! Heck I know people who play Hurling, Football and soccer and still go to games when they can. If 300K people isn't enough to have a well supported team then there isn't much hope for anyone.





Again, you are missing the point. 

Ireland along with Northern Ireland has a population of 6.406 million.

Wales has a population of 3.063 million.

You have twice the population over there FFS.
I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

Cardiff rfc weren't getting large crowds prior to the blues being formed, I don't know why you think the blues will automatically get loads more

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

You are not getting this, there are TOO MANY rugby clubs for the amount of people who live here.

What is the population of Dublin ? 500k+?

I would wager that there is nowhere near 30 rugby clubs in Dublin. I bet there are about 10 or 15 at most, with almost twice the population, now see where I am going with this ?

There are more people, with less of a choice, so you will get more fans at the clubs than you would in an area where there is less population and MORE choice.
Well there are at least 5 in division one of the AIL alone so I'd wager there is far more than 10. This is literally the case across the world, do you think that Oyannax don't have local rugby and football teams. The place were I live has a population of 28k with numerous GAA, rugby and soccer clubs and we can still easily get crowds above 10k whenever Meath play in the GAA here. How can this be even used as an excuse...

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by Kingshu on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:I know exactly what your saying I just completely disagree with it. Are you seriously suggesting that a population of 300k people in a city isn't enough to support all these things?...

You are not getting this, there are TOO MANY rugby clubs for the amount of people who live here.

What is the population of Dublin ? 500k+?

I would wager that there is nowhere near 30 rugby clubs in Dublin. I bet there are about 10 or 15 at most, with almost twice the population, now see where I am going with this ?

There are more people, with less of a choice, so you will get more fans at the clubs than you would in an area where there is less population and MORE choice.

You could be right, Dublin has twice the population with half the clubs (think its 12 rugby clubs in Dublin), but then your forgetting the 215 GAA clubs in Dublin these take up a lot of peoples time.

Or your saying Wales has too many rugby clubs compared to Ireland,

Now I can't get the figures for number of clubs but we can work it out from registered players, which is Ireland 153,000, Wales 50,557 (used bbc article) so Ireland has twice the population but 3 times more Rugby players?

Now even with twice the number of players the problem would be as bad in Ireland as you say it is in Wales, but 3 times the playing numbers it must be an even bigger factor in Ireland, yet the Provinces are still better supported.

And I haven't even mentioned the 2319 GAA clubs in Ireland on top of this.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 6:13 pm

I love it when the Irish use the GAA as means to justify their ends, even though GAA and rugby union are played at different times of the year.

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Re: Qualification for Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 6:22 pm

Also, and I find this very interesting, as Wales has more clubs but less registered players, I wanted to check this out, and after doing some research, I do not know why, but the participation numbers for registered rugby union players players in Ireland includes the registered GAA players as well, why is everything in Ireland so murky ? Why can't things be more cut and dried over there ?

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