Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

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Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 3:56 pm

Right, now I know people on here do not like WOL, but this article is so accurate and spot on, I do not know how people can argue with it. Also this paragraph is right:-

On Saturday night in Galway, all four officials for the Connacht-Ospreys game were Irish, so when a crucial decision goes the way of the home team it’s hardly surprising some people will point to the nationality issue.


I have been called tin hatted and a wum for even mentioning such a thing in the past, but how can we have it that ALL the officials are from the same country as the team that is playing, then get a controversial decision like we had then not expect cries of bias ? I always thought that there was supposed to be a Welsh ref whilst IN ireland and an Irish ref when IN Wales, wh ywas this changed for this game ?


Please read, and give your views:-


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro12-bosses-must-act-now-10978612 

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by beshocked on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:05 pm

notworthy Run You could always get Wayne Barnes to ref some games.....


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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:06 pm

Lets be clear an analysis of Pro12 results shows that there is no bias when referees come from one of the team.
Who is at home is the statistically significant factor.
The problem is, and has always been that Scotland and Italy cannot provide sufficient referees for Wales v Ireland games and therefore Irish and Welsh referees have to officiate at these matches.

As to decision I think Clancy was right he did not release he ball and therefore a double movement.
Having said that players get away with continuing after being tackled all the time and the inconsistency is unacceptable.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:06 pm

You seriously do not know how much I would welcome that.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:09 pm

Here is more on this:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35704821

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:11 pm

I see that there is only 1 Italian referee on the active list and no Scottish referees.

So neutral referees simply are not coming any time soon.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:13 pm

Also, having home fans as TMO's needs to stop.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:13 pm

Firstly I think this was a shocking decision as the player was not held in the tackle IMO.

There are far too many equally shocking errors by officials but not just in the Pro12, the mistakes are made in the AP and at international level too. We can berate officialdom til we're blue in the face but what's the answer? Get English officials and send ours to the AP only for the English officials to mess up equally. Look at some of Poite's decisions in the England v Ireland match.
As for the talk of neutral officials, it does in this case stand out as terrible planning by the Pro12 but were any of the officials Connacht fans?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:20 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Pro12 but were any of the officials Connacht fans?

Nobody was saying they are, but when you look at it, Ospreys are duking it out with Munster for the 6th spot in the league, and would you care to guess where Jude Quinn is from ?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by beshocked on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:24 pm

Pete at least if you got neutral refs you couldn't accuse them of favouring a particular nationality.

Would probably help make the reffing more consistent in the long term to share refs in the Pro12,AP and Top 14, maybe even from SH refs too.

You might struggle to get approval but it's an option.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:32 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Firstly I think this was a shocking decision as the player was not held in the tackle IMO.


Often said but irrelevant

The tackle is complete when the ball-carrier is brought to the ground; this is judged to be the case as soon as a knee touches the ground while being held by the opposition (at the time the knee hits the ground) - Davies knee hits the ground he was tackled and at that moment the defender had hold of him

Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately - Davies did not release the ball

Good decision Referee

As I say though referees the world over do not apply the above rule  hence this myth that not being held after the tackle is complete means you can carry on - you cant.
The myth is you need to hold on the player for a period of time - you don't, only at the moment the knee hits the ground


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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by profitius on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:33 pm

It looked a try to me on first viewing but it must be remembered too that Marmion fell off the tackle because he got shoved in the face. Is that not illegal?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:34 pm

profitius wrote:It looked a try to me on first viewing but it must be remembered too that Marmion fell off the tackle because he got shoved in the face. Is that not illegal?


No, it's called a hand off. OK

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:47 pm

I've seen the call, 'not held' many times, in similar circumstances, but I agree with geoff. The tackled player didn't release the ball, so technically the ref was right.

As for the Wails headline.... Hyperbole. Not that I wouldn't like to see some changes. I would like more Italian and Scottish refs, and maybe more neutral refs, but only because it would lessen the nonsense claims of bias.

As far as I'm aware, there are no TMO's officiating for teams they are fans of (more than willing to be corrected on that). I haven't seen Marshall Kilgore act as TMO at an Ulster game in quite a while.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 4:58 pm

Munchkin wrote:As far as I'm aware, there are no TMO's officiating for teams they are fans of (more than willing to be corrected on that). I haven't seen Marshall Kilgore act as TMO at an Ulster game in quite a while.

Not so much fans of, but fans in general. Look, I am not saying it's true, but Jude Quinn is from Munster, he was a TMO for Ospreys, he disallowed a try, now it's not in the realms of fantasy to suggest that a TMO from Munster has dented the chances of one of Munsters main challengers for 6th spot and an European place next season and in the process has given HIS province a real shot in the arm for qualifying for Europe next year, is it ?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:As far as I'm aware, there are no TMO's officiating for teams they are fans of (more than willing to be corrected on that). I haven't seen Marshall Kilgore act as TMO at an Ulster game in quite a while.

Not so much fans of, but fans in general. Look, I am not saying it's true, but Jude Quinn is from Munster, he was a TMO for Ospreys, he disallowed a try, now it's not in the realms of fantasy to suggest that a TMO from Munster has dented the chances of one of Munsters main challengers for 6th spot and an European place next season and in the process has given HIS province a real shot in the arm for qualifying for Europe next year, is it ?

You're right in that TMO's were officiating matches that were local to them. I'm just not sure that happens now. I've seen Kilgore TMO elsewhere, but not at Ulster for some time now.
I'm not the biggest fan of TMO's. I've seen them make really poor calls, Welsh, Scots, Italian and Irish. I would also say that some of those poor calls were influenced by bias. I hope I'm right in saying that things may be changing for the better, on that front.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:As far as I'm aware, there are no TMO's officiating for teams they are fans of (more than willing to be corrected on that). I haven't seen Marshall Kilgore act as TMO at an Ulster game in quite a while.

Not so much fans of, but fans in general. Look, I am not saying it's true, but Jude Quinn is from Munster, he was a TMO for Ospreys, he disallowed a try, now it's not in the realms of fantasy to suggest that a TMO from Munster has dented the chances of one of Munsters main challengers for 6th spot and an European place next season and in the process has given HIS province a real shot in the arm for qualifying for Europe next year, is it ?

Just to reply to the bit in bold. No, it's not beyond the realms of fantasy. I really doubt it's true, but would need to see the incident before I could make any sort of informed judgement.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by profitius on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:25 pm


A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.

15.3 Brought to the ground defined
(a)
If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground’.


Well well. Clancy owed an apology maybe?


Of course the Welsh will say he was overly technical and 99% of the time its counted as a non tackle. Thats correct BUT the difference here is this went to the TMO. Once you go to the TMO, they have no choice but to follow the rule book!

Josh Van Der Flier scored a try for Ireland at the weekend but it wasn't given because the TMO couldn't see it. I see tries ruled out by TMOs every week on technicalities. For instance look at forward passes. A lot of forward passes are not penalised in open play but if one gets referred to the TMO, no matter if its only fractionally forward, the TMO has to follow the rules and rule it out. Its ablack and white issue.

I do feel for Davies because he had a great game and probably thought he wasn't held but technically Clancy was correct and had no choice but to make that call.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:29 pm

profitius wrote:

A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.

15.3 Brought to the ground defined
(a)
If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground’.


Well well. Clancy owed an apology maybe?


Of course the Welsh will say he was overly technical and 99% of the time its counted as a non tackle. Thats correct BUT the difference here is this went to the TMO. Once you go to the TMO, they have no choice but to follow the rule book!

Josh Van Der Flier scored a try for Ireland at the weekend but it wasn't given because the TMO couldn't see it. I see tries ruled out by TMOs every week on technicalities. For instance look at forward passes. A lot of forward passes are not penalised in open play but if one gets referred to the TMO, no matter if its only fractionally forward, the TMO has to follow the rules and rule it out. Its ablack and white issue.

I do feel for Davies because he had a great game and probably thought he wasn't held but technically Clancy was correct and had no choice but to make that call.

That's a very good point, prof.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:37 pm

First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Shifty on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:55 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I see that there is only 1 Italian referee on the active list and no Scottish referees.

So neutral referees simply are not coming any time soon.

That I don't understand, the Scottish one red hair was pretty good, what happened to him?

100% agree though the standard of the referees is shocking in the Pro 12, it's turning fans away from the product and BADLY needs addressing.  I forget how many times I have seen fans leaving the Liberty stadium fed up and disgusted by the referee, even games we have won, have led to total frustration from fans.  
No one is saying the job isn't hard, but their professional just like the players, and should be accountable, personally I'd rather merge the the refereeing unions of the 4 British teams, there is no reason why English referees could not manage the home games of Welsh and Scottish teams, anything to stop the Irish bringing their own ref with them.  

World Rugby have apparently confirmed the Sam Davies try should of stood.  And even listening to the incident again, you can tell the Irish TMO rushed as well as Clancy, frankly I'm 100% sure if the same thing had happened the other way a Connacht try would of been given.  

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro12-bosses-must-act-now-10978612

Go down the page to the video of the incident, it's shocking.


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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by exile jack on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 5:55 pm

I was at the game and the decision left very many bemused.Bias is of course a serious allegation and that's not the issue for me.I see the issues as the competence of referees;the role of touch judges(often laughingly called assistant referees);and the recruitment,training and retention of TMO's.As long as the officials are competent I don't care what country they come from.I do care that the TMO is from a neutral country and demonstrates a clear ability to analyse real time events in repetitive SloMo.Why can't there be greater use be made of ex-professional rugby players? Decision making can never be 100% perfect but 'review' models in the NFL and Rugby League to name but two suggest that the Pro12 'product' can have its officiating much improved.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Shifty on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:02 pm

Neil Paterson!
He's not the red haired guy I was on about, but I thought he was pretty decent when I saw him.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Griff on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:16 pm

People keep saying it won't change because they can't find Scottish or Italian refs. What's wrong with English refs? They may be aligned to a league/Union outside the pro12 unions, but just pay them. I bet there's some decent ones not working at the same time as some pro 12 games (English prem doesn't have many Friday games, if memory serves, compared to us so they could still ref the English Saturday games and us lot on a Friday). What's the issue?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:32 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:43 pm

Griff wrote:People keep saying it won't change because they can't find Scottish or Italian refs. What's wrong with English refs? They may be aligned to a league/Union outside the pro12 unions, but just pay them. I bet there's some decent ones not working at the same time as some pro 12 games (English prem doesn't have many Friday games, if memory serves, compared to us so they could still ref the English Saturday games and us lot on a Friday). What's the issue?
A lot of them ref both premiership and championship games.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

Like most of your other guesses, you would be wrong.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:48 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

Like most of your other guesses, you would be wrong.

So world rugby are wrong then are they ?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 6:58 pm

Did "world rugby" say that if a Connacht player had scored the try, the referee wouldn't have went to the TMO?

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:06 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Did "world rugby" say that if a Connacht player had scored the try, the referee wouldn't have went to the TMO?

No they didn't that was me guessing, as I stated.

Look, how long have I been arguing the toss about how dodgy the Irish refs seem in our league on here ? Since this site had started I would wager, there have been too many circumstances, too many instances, too many debates, too many questionable outcomes, we cannot keep constantly having these circumstances, and the Irish members on here KEEP putting down to people like me being tin hatted, paranoid or just making stuff up. If these circumstances were not so often, then you would have a point, but they are not, they always happen.

There are now too many circumstances for it to be a conspiracy theory.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:10 pm

picard

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

Interesting points. LD, and I guess your definition is why there is a bit of controversy. I did a quick search, looking to see if the guidelines supported you, but only found this Tackled player

Seems straight forward to me. At the very least, the tackled player must release the ball. He didn't. No try.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:20 pm

Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done OK


There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

Interesting points. LD, and I guess your definition is why there is a bit of controversy. I did a quick search, looking to see if the guidelines supported you, but only found this Tackled player

Seems straight forward to me. At the very least, the tackled player must release the ball. He didn't. No try.


World rugby must be wrong then. After all, they only make the laws. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Did "world rugby" say that if a Connacht player had scored the try, the referee wouldn't have went to the TMO?

No they didn't that was me guessing, as I stated.

Look, how long have I been arguing the toss about how dodgy the Irish refs seem in our league on here ? Since this site had started I would wager, there have been too many circumstances, too many instances, too many debates, too many questionable outcomes, we cannot keep constantly having these circumstances, and the Irish members on here KEEP putting down to people like me being tin hatted, paranoid or just making stuff up. If these circumstances were not so often, then you would have a point, but they are not, they always happen.

There are now too many circumstances for it to be a conspiracy theory.

No, you guessed that the ref wouldn't have gone to the TMO. Not that World Rugby would have supported your theory. Your statement implied that World rugby did support your claim.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.



Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

Interesting points. LD, and I guess your definition is why there is a bit of controversy. I did a quick search, looking to see if the guidelines supported you, but only found this Tackled player

Seems straight forward to me. At the very least, the tackled player must release the ball. He didn't. No try.


World rugby must be wrong then. After all, they only make the laws. Rolling Eyes

The link I gave you is from World Rugby ................

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:30 pm

And world rugby has said that the try should have stood.

It's just another one, in a very, very long list of circumstances where Irish officials have made a decision that favours an Irish province and that decision has courted controversy, not even you can deny this, how many more times are we going to have this debate when even you can start questioning these circumstances ?

As I have said if they were few and far between you would have a point, but we have been arguing the toss about this week after week, season after season.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:And world rugby has said that the try should have stood.

It's just another one, in a very, very long list of circumstances where Irish officials have made a decision that favours an Irish province and that decision has courted controversy, not even you can deny this, how many more times are we going to have this debate when even you can start questioning these circumstances ?

As I have said if they were few and far between you would have a point, but we have been arguing the toss about this week after week, season after season.

Well, you know I like evidence. Give me this very, very, long list.

Starting to think this thread is just another excuse to bitch about the Irish. Disappointing....

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:46 pm

No I am not bitching about the Irish, not at all, I have no problem with the Irish, my problem is with the Irish refs in the pro12.

I will compile a list tomorrow, but I will say, how many times have we had situations where an Irish ref has given a pen or a yellow card, only for an independent citing commissioner to judge that it the punishment was not sufficient ?

Also, the more I think about it, why would I need to do you a list?


Have you forgotten the hours,days and weeks myself and you have argued about this on here since we've been on here due to all these circumstances ?

There have been too many circumstances now, you cannot keep batting me off with the paranoia stick, it has come to the point where I can now beat you with your head in the sand stick. OK

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 7:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:No I am not bitching about the Irish, not at all, I have no problem with the Irish, my problem is with the Irish refs in the pro12.

I will compile a list tomorrow, but I will say, how many times have we had situations where an Irish ref has given a pen or a yellow card, only for an independent citing commissioner to judge that it the punishment was not sufficient ?

Also, the more I think about it, why would I need to do you a list?


Have you forgotten the hours,days and weeks myself and you have argued about this on here since we've been on here due to all these circumstances ?

There have been too many circumstances now, you cannot keep batting me off with the paranoia stick, it has come to the point where I can now beat you with your head in the sand stick. OK

You and another were always complaining about something, LD, and the vast majority of the time it was about the Irish, but not about specific reffing incidents. Although Chunky did highlight a couple of incidents, I'm not sure they involved Irish refs. Chunky's pet hate is a certain Welsh ref.

I look forward to your very, very, long list of wrong calls by Irish refs. Not that I believe you will produce one though...

On your claim that World Rugby said the try should have been allowed, that's not exactly true. It was Tandy that claimed World Rugby agreed that it should have been given, yet the only response from World Rugby was this:

A spokesman for World Rugby said: “I cannot confirm or deny and will not be able to establish without more details.”

I'm not saying Tandy was telling porkies, but I wouldn't trust it unless World Rugby confirmed it.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by True Raven on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 8:54 pm

Why do people bring nationality into this argument, it doesn't matter if Clancy is Irish, Welsh or Mongolian he's an incompetent ref who makes mistakes, two weekends ago he made a major mistake in Wales vs Scotland.

Didn't a Welsh linesman tell Andrew brace of an offside infringement when Scarlets played Edinburgh and it gave the Scarlets a winning penalty? it's not bias, it's incompetent refs which is the bane of this leaguE and makes the pro12 seem amateur


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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:07 pm

True Raven wrote:Why do people bring nationality into this argument, it doesn't matter if Clancy is Irish, Welsh or Mongolian he's an incompetent ref who makes mistakes, two weekends ago he made a major mistake in Wales vs Scotland.

Didn't a Welsh linesman tell Andrew brace of an offside infringement when Scarlets played Edinburgh and it gave the Scarlets a winning penalty?  it's not bias,
it's incompetent refs which is the bane of this leaguE and makes the pro12 seem amateur


I agree with all you have said, in bold.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

There is no distinction between Being Held and Held onto in the Rulebook.
If the tackled player is held at the time the knee hits the ground he must release as was the case here.

There is no requirement to continue to hold the tackled player after the tackle is made no withstanding that the majority of referees seem to ignore this fact.
One of those rules most referees turn a blind eye too - like squint feeds.

The last sentence totally unfair to Clancy and is groundless hyperbole

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done OK


There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

But it doesn't - the Pro12 stats say otherwise.
We get many Welsh referees doing Wales v Ireland teams and we would prefer it not to be the case but we are where we are

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:13 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:First off, Sam Davies was not bring held when his knee touched the ground.

Secondly, I expect to see this happening all the time now then.

He was being held when his knee went to ground. He also didn't release the ball once tackled to the ground. So technically, the ref/TMO is absolutely correct. As Prof points out, once it went to the TMO, the TMO had to rule according to the book.

There is difference to "being held" and being " held onto" two totally different scenarios, if a player has his ankle held onto from behind and he falls over whilst still having his ankle held does that mean he should stay still and not get up ?

Being held means being stopped dead whilst the opposition has hold of you, you cannot then get back up, this did not happen to Sam Davies, he was being held onto and was not being stopped.

Hence why world rugby have come out and said the try should have stood.


Also, I would hazard a guess, that if it was a Connacht player who was scoring, the ref would have not gone to the TMO.

There is no distinction between Being Held and Held onto in the Rulebook.
If the tackled player is held at the time the knee hits the ground he must release as was the case here.

There is no requirement to continue to hold the tackled player after the tackle is made no withstanding that the majority of referees seem to ignore this fact.
One of those rules most referees turn a blind eye too - like squint feeds.

The last sentence totally unfair to Clancy and is groundless hyperbole

That's my thinking, and why I provided LD with the World Rugby guidelines. Seems to have been ignored though.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:16 pm

If everyone calms down a bit maybe what the rules lawyers need to do is define what constitutes being held.
That would solve the problem

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by marty2086 on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:16 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Firstly I think this was a shocking decision as the player was not held in the tackle IMO.


Often said but irrelevant

The tackle is complete when the ball-carrier is brought to the ground; this is judged to be the case as soon as a knee touches the ground while being held by the opposition (at the time the knee hits the ground) - Davies knee hits the ground he was tackled and at that moment the defender had hold of him

Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately - Davies did not release the ball

Good decision Referee

As I say though referees the world over do not apply the above rule  hence this myth that not being held after the tackle is complete means you can carry on - you cant.
The myth is you need to hold on the player for a period of time - you don't,  only at the moment the knee hits the ground

Spot on geoff, the fact that Jutge came out and said otherwise is strange but then again there is so much open to interpretation and his knee and the hold were so marginal and when looked at in slow mo it enhances things and makes it look worse

It is harsh though in the wider scheme and the extreme technicality it involves

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by Munchkin on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:20 pm

Yep, it does seem harsh.

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Re: Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Pro12 but were any of the officials Connacht fans?

Nobody was saying they are, but when you look at it, Ospreys are duking it out with Munster for the 6th spot in the league, and would you care to guess where Jude Quinn is from ?

I guess if it was a Scottish ref, you could have said the same thing re: Ospreys and Glasgow.

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