Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by McLaren on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 11:42 am

First topic message reminder :

Super

For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.

For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.


"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"

So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?


bob

WTF was that?
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Post by McLaren on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 11:30 am

I think Sharapova might have used the same conference room as Tiger did when announcing his indiscretions.

Spoiler:
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And wow. That carpet?

Spoiler:
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Although Nike have dropped her already, and they are still snuggled up with Tiger. Sad end to her career I guess.
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Post by pedro on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 12:21 pm

Shocked A Russian athlete being doped??

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Post by sirbenson on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 12:39 pm

Maria was using the substance for 10 years, it was banned in January...An honest mistake that deserves the benefit of the doubt! I can see a 6 month to a year ban, so she will be back!

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Post by Davie on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 12:48 pm

Honestly, if things are as she claims, then someone has been very neglectful. She says she received an email advising of the new banned substances from Jan 1st, and she "didn't open it"

Now I could imagine a young tour pro having to deal with those matters themselves, but someone of her high profile presumably has advisors who should be dealing with this. Either one of her team (or her?) has been very negligent, or there is more to this than meets the eye

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Post by McLaren on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 12:55 pm

Davie

She has been taking a drug for 10 years for a non-existent medical problem that is not licensed outside Russia.

She has been doping for 10 years.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 1:19 pm

What I can't understand is why the drug-testers, who you'd think were aware of this in her system, didn't warn her earlier.
I'm sympathetic on the face of it; it sounds like the sort of "entrapment" that Doug Barron and Vijay fell foul of . . . . and Vijay's case is still in the courts!

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 1:50 pm

She's been using a legal substance for 9.95 (+) years and so wasn't doping.

She's continued to use the same substance this year after it was banned on 1/1 (I think I read).

I would think her testing history should be able to prove out that she hasn't taken anything different before and after (I assume she would be tested very frequently being upper echelons of the game and in the latter part of many tournaments each year).

She (claims she) didn't read the document confirming it's addition to the prohibited substance list. 22/12 seems a little soon before implementation (as some things can show up in samples for longer) but on the information I have seen it does seem that she was told before the ban came in to effect. I can only assume this timeframe is the same time all tennisists (or however they group sportspeople in drug testing world) were told and I would support telling everyone the same way at the same time, surely you couldn't have exceptions as that would throw "tipping off" or favouritism type allegations in the process.

I don't like the "name of the substance is different" approach/defence, but on the evidence of today that I have seen I do think on balance that she is telling the truth about the circumstances of this positive test.

At the moment I think: Stupid, yes. Consistently doping, no.

Time may tell of course.

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Post by golfermartin on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 2:21 pm

The drug has been on a WADA "watch list" for a year, because it was being used by "hundreds of athletes" due to its ability to enhance performance / endurance. The list of ailments that the drug is used to alleviate do not appear to be type of ailment that a top level tennis player like Sharapova could suffer from and remain at the top of her game. It seems fishy to me.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 3:18 pm

golfermartin

Exactly, she has been taking a drug that has been used by athletes to enhance performance for many years. Is it likely that 100's of young and fit athletes have a heart condition that needs a slightly dodgy heart medication?

There must be 100's of drugs not currently on the list of banned substances that will improve performance, and you could say there is nothing wrong with taking any of them. But the second they are placed on the list you have to stop taking them.

I don't buy the Sharapova family doc gave me this rubbish, she was exploiting a loophole and forgot to stop after that loophole was closed.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 08 Mar 2016, 10:07 pm

Interesting that Sharapova's little potion is still legal tender on the PGA Tour - not among their list of banned substances.

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Post by JAS on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 1:10 pm

Such a tricky area this (when a substance moves from being "OK" to being banned).

I don't buy the fact that she never opened the email or that nobody else on her team (doc, physic advisor, agent, manager, whatever) never said to her. Maria you've got to stop using Maldonium. It's her responsibility though.

Having said that, you would have thought that the anti doping people would have said.... "This substance is going to be prohibited after 1/1/16 and we know from your samples that you take it, you may want to consult your doctor to look at alternatives if it's for a specific medical condition"

Anybody else on here Asthmatic? Salbutamol (Ventolin - comes in a blue inhaler) is banned as is formeterol another inhaler I have used is also on the banned list above certain levels.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 1:31 pm

McLaren wrote:Quite a lot of people (including some on here) were up for giving Ched Evans a second chance after his release from jail, just wondering if anyone on here would be ok with AJ playing for your club if his sentence isn't too long and he has a bit of career left in him after his release?
Don't be a plum. Johnson's admitted his guilt whereas Evans has always denied it and his appeal is being heard soon. Up to the clubs re. Johnson I guess but I think it's a little pathetic that, if after he's served his time, he's further penalised re. a profession that has nothing overt to do with underage girls.

I'm never wrong wrote:Not the point I was trying to make Mac, I just think more prison time is the best deterrent to committing crimes.
Except it's clearly not and there's no evidence that'll support you on that.

McLaren wrote:I think Sharapova might have used the same conference room as Tiger did when announcing his indiscretions.

Spoiler:
Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread - Page 2 31F7811D00000578-3480964-The_28_year_old_Russian_tennis_player_confirmed_the_shock_news_a-a-122_1457384183827


And wow. That carpet?

Spoiler:
Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread - Page 2 31F77B0000000578-3480964-image-a-123_1457384211066



Although Nike have dropped her already, and they are still snuggled up with Tiger.  Sad end to her career I guess.
Nike. The most hideous, vomit-inducing, hypocritical corporation that it's possible to imagine. Pathetic. Quite alright for them to continue with Woods and Gatlin eh? Ah, they're American. Silly me.
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Post by McLaren on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 1:50 pm

Navy

Really? You respond to the tongue in cheek Nike comment and fail to mention the carpet!
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Post by MontysMerkin on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 2:34 pm

If he can still play footy after he's served his time then fair enough. However I think that not many big clubs will be looking to sign a 40 year old diddler...
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Post by McLaren on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 2:57 pm

Navy

The victim in this instance was a fan of the club. If we think of clubs and the football world as a community then allowing him to return to action is allowing him to return to the same community that his victim is a part of. Are you really ok with this?

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Post by super_realist on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 3:06 pm

Who said anything about him returning to Sunderland? Sunderland sacked him.

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Post by JAS on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 3:08 pm

If there's a case for saying Johnson should be further punished after he has served his time then the natural conclusion to those feeling that way is that his sentence won't be long enough.

Once somebody, after committing a crime, has been sentenced, served their time and released then other than for reasons of a personal gratuitous witch hunt there should be no need to demand further punishment.

So when you write to your MP regarding Syrian refugees Mac, perhaps you should include a separate letter on the leniency of r*** and diddler sentencing (which many including me wouldn't disagree with).

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Post by McLaren on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 3:14 pm

Jas

The time spent in prison is only one element of the punishment(whatever you want to call it) handed out when you are sentenced for a crime. You could be constrained by any number of orders when you actually leave prison that are still part of that original sentence. For example he is on the sex offenders register for life. He will also be on probation for some period after he leaves jail.

So there are elements of his sentence that will stand for life as it is. What components of his punishment would you like to see extended?

It sounds like you want the whole sentence to be served in jail then no activities prohibited on his exit from jail?
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Post by JAS on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 3:26 pm

Convicted drunk drivers are allowed back behind the wheel post release and ban (albeit at exorbitant insurance premiums).

In the case of a Johnson like crime, being on the SOR or being on probation shouldn't stop him resuming his livelihood. What will stop it however is witch hunter pressure from people like yourself. We might not like all aspects of the law in terms of sentencing and punishment but to continue a vigilante style vilification post release is not the way forward. I do happen to think base sentences for those crimes are ridiculously lenient in most cases.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 5:20 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

Really? You respond to the tongue in cheek Nike comment and fail to mention the carpet!
Oh, the carpet was bad. That's for sure.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 5:22 pm

JAS wrote:Convicted drunk drivers are allowed back behind the wheel post release and ban (albeit at exorbitant insurance premiums).

In the case of a Johnson like crime, being on the SOR or being on probation shouldn't stop him resuming his livelihood. What will stop it however is witch hunter pressure from people like yourself. We might not like all aspects of the law in terms of sentencing and punishment but to continue a vigilante style vilification post release is not the way forward. I do happen to think base sentences for those crimes are ridiculously lenient in most cases.
Absolutely.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 5:22 pm

Now, this is pretty good:

http://www.golfwrx.com/362654/fowler-makes-hole-in-one-for-1-million-with-luke-donalds-club/
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Post by raycastleunited on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 6:28 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:If he can still play footy after he's served his time then fair enough. However I think that not many big clubs will be looking to sign a 40 year old diddler...

He's 28, you reckon he will / should spend 12 years in prison?

Devil's advocate: the girl was 15, a few months away from the age of consent, in most countries she would be "legal". Quite likely if she was a "normal" girl she would be fumbling around with a teenage boyfriend doing similar stuff. The media hype surrounding the trial has probably caused her more trauma. I'm not saying what Johnson did was ok, but I suspect he's already learnt his lesson and will never go near an underage girl again. 10 years in prison seems a bit like a witch hunt to me.

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Post by Davie on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 8:43 pm

No 10 years is not enough - and here why (in my opinion)

He pleaded GUILTY to two charges - one on sexual contact and conduct with a child (that one I understand was just kissing) - but the other he pleased GUILTY to was grooming. In my mind grooming is worse than the actual sex acts; it implies premeditation.

We hear stories all the time of mid-20s guys meeting jailbait at pubs or clubs, believe them to be 18 and end up doing something illegal. Should they be prosecuted? Yes probably, but with some leniency if it is a genuine mistake.

But grooming .. he ADMITTED he knew she was under age and encouraged it - even though he pleaded not guilty to the two more serious sexual contact charges (one being proven and one not) - the premeditation means he should get maximum sentence

And as for parole, a mate of mine said something a few days ago I'd never heard considered but made a lot of sense to me

His opinion was that if someone gets 12 years, they should serve 12 years. If they have good behaviour, then they get out on time. Without good behaviour the sentence increases. Simple but works for me

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Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 09 Mar 2016, 9:20 pm

If you plead guilty to a charge, you get a reduced sentence as you are not wasting the courts time - and more importantly, not putting the victim through the horrors of the offence again. I don't know how it would work in this case as is the victim the same in every charge?

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Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 10 Mar 2016, 9:16 am

raycastleunited wrote:
MontysMerkin wrote:If he can still play footy after he's served his time then fair enough. However I think that not many big clubs will be looking to sign a 40 year old diddler...

He's 28, you reckon he will / should spend 12 years in prison?

Yep
Grooming and sexual activity with a child is not on in my book.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 10 Mar 2016, 9:25 am

There has to be a sentence for those that cooperate that is short enough compared to the full sentence to incentivize cooperation.

Same goes for being a model prisoner, wouldn't you want to provide the incentive for people to behave well?
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Post by Davie on Thu 10 Mar 2016, 8:52 pm

McLaren wrote:There has to be a sentence for those that cooperate that is short enough compared to the full sentence to incentivize cooperation.

Same goes for being a model prisoner, wouldn't you want to provide the incentive for people to behave well?

I already answered that. Good behaviour should mean they got out on time - not early

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Post by SmithersJones on Thu 10 Mar 2016, 9:18 pm

Isn't this a moot point? In a system where you get out early for good behaviour, sentences will be longer and if good behaviour means no extension, they'll be shorter.

Either way, prison doesn't work so it's a doubly moot point.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 9:20 am

SmithersJones wrote:...Either way, prison doesn't work so it's a doubly moot point.
A sweeping statement. Doesn't work for many but, equally, probably 'works' for many as well.
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Post by SmithersJones on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 9:45 am

If you define 'works' as depriving someone of their liberty, it works pretty much perfectly. If you define it as preventing further crime, recidivism rates suggest that it's pretty rubbish.
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Post by beninho on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 11:30 am

We live in a society that want to punish instead of rehabilitate. I remember seeing something about the Scandinavian prison systems. Mainly open prisons, with a big focus on rehabilitation, nothing longer that 15 (?) year sentences. The sort of prisons that would send the daily mail and the right wing media into meltdown. Yet they have a much lower rate of re-conviction compared to other countries. The punishment is loss of freedom. In this country it would appear we want/demand more as a punishment for most crimes. Adam Johnson is an Idiot, but he is not a bad person, and I dare say he is not a threat to children going forward. Yes he knew this girls age, and he is guilty and deserves a sentence but lets not go over the top with the reaction.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 11:39 am

Davie wrote:No 10 years is not enough - and here why (in my opinion)

He pleaded GUILTY to two charges - one on sexual contact and conduct with a child (that one I understand was just kissing) - but the other he pleased GUILTY to was grooming. In my mind grooming is worse than the actual sex acts; it implies premeditation.

We hear stories all the time of mid-20s guys meeting jailbait at pubs or clubs, believe them to be 18 and end up doing something illegal. Should they be prosecuted? Yes probably, but with some leniency if it is a genuine mistake.

But grooming .. he ADMITTED he knew she was under age and encouraged it - even though he pleaded not guilty to the two more serious sexual contact charges (one being proven and one not) - the premeditation means he should get maximum sentence

And as for parole, a mate of mine said something a few days ago I'd never heard considered but made a lot of sense to me

His opinion was that if someone gets 12 years, they should serve 12 years. If they have good behaviour, then they get out on time. Without good behaviour the sentence increases. Simple but works for me

He deserves jail time and significant punishment because ultimately he broke the law and knew what he was doing. Very odd dude to want to sleep with a 15 year old. However, I think that consent should be a mitigating factor even if a girl is only 15. I mean the girl seemed to encourage it too and even if only 15 you aren't stupid.

Also I do not agree with pay outs to "victims" in cases such as this as it just incentivises consent when at least in this case the girl seems to have been quite happy to give her consent.

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Post by McLaren on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 12:07 pm

GunGerms

In our legal/moral/ethical system we have agreed that it is not possible for a 15 year old to consent to sex with an adult.
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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 12:25 pm

McLaren wrote:GunGerms

In our legal/moral/ethical system we have agreed that it is not possible for a 15 year old to consent to sex with an adult.

I know. Its the same in a lot of countries. I don't think the law should be as prescriptive as that though. Logically there is a significant difference to the victim between "consensual" statutory r*** and "non-consensual" statutory r*** so why not reflect that in law?

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Post by I'm never wrong on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 4:11 pm

Benitez must need the money or there's a helluva bonus if he keeps them up.

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Post by SmithersJones on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 5:04 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:Benitez must need the money or there's a helluva bonus if he keeps them up.

Won't he be on a zero hours contract like the rest of Ashley's employees? Wink
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Post by I'm never wrong on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 5:30 pm

SmithersJones wrote:Won't he be on a zero hours contract like the rest of Ashley's employees? Wink
Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Post by super_realist on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 5:49 pm

Hope Newcastle go down. They think they're something special, but they're hopeless, a bunch of "never beens" that "never will be".

Money for old rope for the fat spanish waiter. Fail and he gets paid, wins a few matches and he's a hero to those geordies who have nothing in their lives but their crappy deadbeat club.

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Post by westisbest on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 7:34 pm

Your a pleasnt soul SR Very Happy

I think they may just sneak it, Sunderland and Norwich to join us in the championship.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 7:55 am

Always laugh when I see sad fans crying their eyes out after relegation. It's just a bloody game. No one has died.

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Post by westisbest on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 8:15 am

I'm sure you do.

ok for kids to cry, maybe not adults.

As a villa fan I won't be crying when we finally drop.

Will be sad to see is drop down a division after being in the top flight for almost 30 years.


It's been coming for some time though so no surprise.

Your not a football fan though super realist, so you wouldn't understand the passion and commitment fans show.

Great to see fans show passion etc.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 8:51 am

I used to be though, but I was always pragmatic about what it was, just a game, and really not worth getting upset about.

To cry ones eyes out as if you've just lost a family member, when all that has happened is that a team which has been dreadful all year, goes down as expected, not out of business, just down a division, and to a division where they might actually see better football and more success.

Not sure where all this release of "emotion" or "passion" comes from because it should be expected from dross like Villa, Newcastle, Norwich, Palace, Sunderland etc. Fans ought to be welcoming going to a division where they are likely to be doing better and winning more games. If they stayed up, that's when tears are more understandable (if still incredibly pathetic), because they'd only have another season of being whipping boys again.


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Post by westisbest on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 9:51 am

The passion comes from following your team.

Dont buy into this welcoming going down a division.

As a villa fan, yes we may win more games, but surely as a fan you want to play in the top league.

Thats what Villa are used to.
The drop has been on the cards sone MON left and now its happening.

I have never experienced it, so its new to me.

We may not even come back up after one season, may do a Leeds, Forest etc and be in the championship for a long time.

For me as a fan want to be in the premiership, so hopefully we bounce  straight back.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 10:09 am

Why would you want to play in a league you aren't remotely capable of competing in? What possible enjoyment can a fan get in seeing their team horsed every single week, just for the "prestige" of playing in the top league? Surely you'd rather be winning matches, after all, playing in the top league is meaningless if you clearly don't deserve to be there.


Villa could quite easily go straight through the Championship too. They are that bad.

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Post by pedro on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 10:57 am

super_realist wrote:Why would you want to play in a league you aren't remotely capable of competing in?
Like Leicester?

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Post by pedro on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 11:04 am

Here's Adolfs take on it.
https://youtu.be/XJaalH4dpYg

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Post by McLaren on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 12:15 pm

super_realist wrote:Why would you want to play in a league you aren't remotely capable of competing in? What possible enjoyment can a fan get in seeing their team horsed every single week

I dunno, I support Man Utd and following football is still fun.
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Post by raycastleunited on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 12:48 pm

It's not really passion, it's repression, the inability to express emotion in daily life. Football (some other sports too) is the only outlet where grown men can safely cry without fear of being branded weak or gay.

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Post by westisbest on Sat 12 Mar 2016, 8:05 pm

super_realist wrote:Why would you want to play in a league you aren't remotely capable of competing in? What possible enjoyment can a fan get in seeing their team horsed every single week, just for the "prestige" of playing in the top league? Surely you'd rather be winning matches, after all, playing in the top league is meaningless if you clearly don't deserve to be there.


Villa could quite easily go straight through the Championship too. They are that bad.

As a bit of 606v2 fun super realist.

Ill bet you £100 we wont go down to league 1
Now im not saying you said we WILL go down but lets if we do.

We would want to play in the premiership as its the (supposed) biggest league in the world.

I sadly agree with you that we dont belong there at this point in time.
Certainly proved in years gone by that we do belong there and need to quickly get back there and cement our spot again.
As i have said as a football fan you would want your team to play in the highest league possible.

Thats not rocket science.

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