Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by McLaren on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 11:42 am

First topic message reminder :

Super

For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.

For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.


"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"

So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?


bob

WTF was that?
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Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 2:28 pm

This Wales/England game is stinking the place out. Terrible.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:14 pm

Totally agree super, when will England learn that an aimless cross with the hope of winning a corner does not constitute a successful attack. Pitiful quality when it comes to finding that clever final ball.

Rashford clearly a far superior player to Lallana.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

Shotrock wrote:Should you stay or should you go?

Curious what you Brits think about the upcoming "Brexit" vote ...

Pretty worried really. Looks like those who have been harboring hatred towards foreigners are a lot larger in number than I feared. The numbers who voted UKIP and a Tory party offering a referendum on our membership was a clear sign that our country is as small minded as the recent violence in the Euro's suggests it is.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:43 pm

Sr, Mac,
Always wanted GB to get in, was thrilled when they did - but probably never took every advantage that they might have done and gave up more than they should have - and will think it's devastating if they exit.


Abject from England, though Mac's hatred for Lallana is misplaced, apart from anything else they're completely different players. And Rashford/Vardy/Sturridge in the same team won't work going forward. (Don't like Sturridge one little bit, but he's got fantastic talent, even uses it occasionally.) And they should send Sterling home.

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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:48 pm

Assuming England draw or beat Slovakia next week then I don't think Brexit will be an issue. The xenophobic UKIP supporting leave voters are all in France fighting the foreigners, and when they all return home after our quarter final exit the referendum will be already history.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:03 pm

Kwini

Lallana is really good on the ball but what does he offer in terms of picking a pass?

Also, don't agree that the UK "gave up more than they should have", we opted out of schengen and generally our luddite population doesn't engage with the EU enough. I genuinely think that those claiming that the EU lacks democracy don't realise that they can vote for their MEP. The EU is plenty democratic if only people weren't so dumb arsed.

Our fertility rate is about 0.3 higher than the US or Germany and some morons blame a couple of foreigners coming in for increasing the population. And can any of those making the "the country is full" claims even articulate what they mean by that or why they think increasing your population is a bad thing?

I can only hope that in the event of a leave vote Lego hair negotiates Scotland a jammy EU deal where they basically pay for out existence if we refuse to leave with England. And then at least I will still have an EU passport.
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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:48 pm

McLaren wrote:Totally agree super, when will England learn that an aimless cross with the hope of winning a corner does not constitute a successful attack.  Pitiful quality when it comes to finding that clever final ball.  

Rashford clearly a far superior player to Lallana.

Totally agree with your first point.

Not sure about your second point. Lallana clearly has little or no end product, but Rashford was terribly nervous when he came on. He looked terrified, got his legs in a muddle a couple of times, and was generally over awed by the occasion. Which was a shame because he's a good prospect. Hope he can do himself justice next time.

What is clear is that Sturridge and Vardy looked a lot more dangerous than Kane and Sterling.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:57 pm

Ray

Were you watching the same match as everyone else? Rashford couldn't have been calmer when he got the ball? A few decent tricks, some clever little passes and nice lay off on the half turn.


As for your second point sadly I Sturridge will probably start next time out. Would prefer to just see Vardy in place of Sterling.
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Post by pedro on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 7:33 pm

super, you claim you're not interested in football, yet still know everything that's going on and has an opinion about it?

Sterling has no place in the current lineup. He's a luxury player who requires top players around him, something England doesn't offer.
Sturridge should be playing however, at least he brings something to the table.
Lallana has had a good season for Liverpool but on international level he's not much more than a ball mover.
England will go through to the next round, but that's it I'm afraid.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 7:41 pm

Unbelievable that Hodgson is in a job, the highest paid manager by a mile, yet can't do more than an injury time winner. A win is a win, but that was a dreadful match. First touch was abysmal and the amount of time it was head tennis was laughable. A rotten advert for football.

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Post by Davie on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 7:50 pm

There is a "global" post on this subject which appears on every sub forum. It did have a poll associated with it but for some reason the poll part has been removed.

Brit feelings are very decided with the pollsters having it very close. The bookmakers are still making remain a very strong favourite but it's getting tighter. Personally I'm "remain" but in my mind it's a very stupid thing to have a referendum on; I honestly think 90% of voters don't really understand the full ramifications (I include myself in that 90%) - I'm all for democracy but only when people understand what they are being asked. In my opinion, let your elected representative make these decisions.

I may be unsure, but when you compare the list of people backing in or out, the "remains" have far more eminent people

And a small postscript - what do you left-pondians think of the US presidential vote?

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Post by pedro on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:11 pm

Davie, it's a lot about feelings, especially for the 'leavers', and less about hard facts. And feelings are hard to argue against. That's why you often have a pseudo debate.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:12 pm

Agree 100% on the stupidity of a referendum, Davie. Seems like it claimed its first victim, too?

Am I a left-ponder?

Seeing as Bernie lives a couple of miles from me I'm 100% behind Shrillary; don't personally know anyone who's for Drumpf. Isn't he supposed to be in Scotland this week? (After he's been deposed in the latest lawsuit against him.)

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Post by pedro on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:21 pm

Kwini, isn't Trump enough reason to get dual citizenship and get out and vote then?

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Post by JAS on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 5:27 am

Davie wrote:There is a "global" post on this subject which appears on every sub forum. It did have a poll associated with it but for some reason the poll part has been removed.

Brit feelings are very decided with the pollsters having it very close. The bookmakers are still making remain a very strong favourite but it's getting tighter. Personally I'm "remain" but in my mind it's a very stupid thing to have a referendum on; I honestly think 90% of voters don't really understand the full ramifications (I include myself in that 90%) - I'm all for democracy but only when people understand what they are being asked. In my opinion, let your elected representative make these decisions.

I may be unsure, but when you compare the list of people backing in or out, the "remains" have far more eminent people

And a small postscript - what do you left-pondians think of the US presidential vote?

Having read and listened to various arguments and counter arguments I think it's way too big an issue for a simplistic yes/no polarising decision. Personally I think there should be 3 options on the ballot paper

Yes - I'd like our country to remain part of the EU regardless
No - I'd like our country to leave the EU
Maybe - In principle I'd like our country to remain but Jesus wept, The EU seriously needs to sort it's Poopie out if we're going to remain part of it.

I'd love to see an opinion poll if those were the options, I reckon the "Maybes" would take about 80%


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Post by pedro on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:47 am

So that should be a "Definitely Maybe"

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Post by beninho on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:02 am

England deserved the win, in almost all forms of football its bloody hard to beat a team that defend and defend with so many players. Lallana is a very skillful talented player, he is no world beater, but we dont have many of those. I do think Rashford seemed a bit overawed when he came on, a fe wnice touches, but personally a handful of good games and goals should not have him anywhere near this england team, same with Stones and Barkley but English players are so thin on the ground.

This referendum is going to be very tight, anyone over 60 should not be allowed a vote, they are generally more racist than others, and just harp on about when they were kids. So many people moan about Immigration and mention asians, africans etc, they dont seem to realise its just EU immigration. And the mention of unelected EU members, though barely anyone voted for their MEP who votes in Brussels. ANyway we vote at an election for our Mp and subsequent PM, these people should be making the decisions not the rest of the county on very little facts or information.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:47 am

beninho wrote:England deserved the win, in almost all forms of football its bloody hard to beat a team that defend and defend with so many players. Lallana is a very skillful talented player, he is no world beater, but we dont have many of those. I do think Rashford seemed a bit overawed when he came on, a few nice touches, but personally a handful of good games and goals should not have him anywhere near this england team, same with Stones and Barkley but English players are so thin on the ground.

This referendum is going to be very tight, anyone over 60 should not be allowed a vote, they are generally more racist than others, and just harp on about when they were kids. So many people moan about Immigration and mention asians, africans etc, they dont seem to realise its just EU immigration. And the mention of unelected EU members, though barely anyone voted for their MEP who votes in Brussels. ANyway we vote at an election for our Mp and subsequent PM, these people should be making the decisions not the rest of the county on very little facts or information.

Fixed for you.

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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

The thing is super, plenty of successful nations have teams which on paper are not stronger than england's. It just seems England always adds up to less than the sum of its parts

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Post by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:18 am

England's "strength on paper" is always overplayed. The only country that rates Englands' "individuals' as highly as they do, is England themselves. The likes of France, Germany, Spain and Italy wouldn't rate average players like Sterling, Rose, Hart, Cahill etc anywhere near as highly as people here do.

England are a bit like the US Ryder Cup teams of late, disjointed, disparate and incongruent. Nowhere near as good as they like to think they are.



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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

McLaren wrote:Ray

Were you watching the same match as everyone else?  Rashford couldn't have been calmer when he got the ball?  A few decent tricks, some clever little passes and nice lay off on the half turn.

Err, I think you might have been watching a different match? I was referring to England v Wales, not some Man U game you saw last season.

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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:25 am

super_realist wrote:England's "strength on paper" is always overplayed.

England are a bit like the US Ryder Cup teams of late, disjointed, disparate and incongruent.

Yup agreed.

But you can't say England don't have any decent players, they have plenty in the squad (although fewer than other England teams over the last 30 years).

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Post by beninho on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:26 am

This England team has more potential then others, some of these players could be very good, Dier, Alli, Rashford, Kane, STones, Barkley, Sterling, Wilshire. Some are at a good level but I doubt will crack on to be much better, Smalling, Vardy, Walker, Rose, Lallana, Bertrand, Clyne, Henderson, Forster, Hart, nothing wrong with them, all worthy of being in the team or squad. Then Milner, Cahill and Rooney probably at the back end of their international careers.

Dier though looks a great prospect, he seems so important to how the team plays.

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Post by beninho on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:29 am

super_realist wrote:England's "strength on paper" is always overplayed. The only country that rates Englands' "individuals' as highly as they do, is England themselves. The likes of France, Germany, Spain and Italy wouldn't rate average players like Sterling, Rose, Hart, Cahill etc anywhere near as highly as people here do.


I think all of those players would be in those squads. They may not start, but would be involved, I think Rose would make the Italy and French team though.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:36 am

When a player is hyped up by the British media, I always try to think if they were Hungarian or Finnish if we'd be fawning over them in the same way. I can't see anyone in the England squad who'd raise our interest if they weren't English. In fact, Bale apart, there isn't anyone in any of the home nations squads who would be rated especially highly.

Those players I mentioned might be of a decent standard, but they are clearly over-rated They'd barely get a mention if they weren't English.

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Post by beninho on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:42 am

Who rates them so highly? who hypes up Cahill, Rose, or even Joe Hart? Who overrates them? There are all deserving of their place in the england team, and they all play regular for there clubs.

Sterling was very hyped up, but he was a very promising player, he had a great season when liverpool challenged for the title. He though has no cracked on as he should have, but he still may become a great player. Over the past season though he has had a hell of a lot more criticism rather than being hyped up though.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:52 am

The people who say "England are strong on paper, or stronger than other nations on paper" over-rate them clearly.  

We constantly hear how good England are individually, but that they can't play as a team. When they don't have the foreign team mates in their Premiership teams to back them up, they suddenly look pretty turgid and suddenly, pretty average.

Are England that strong on paper? Not especially. Are they strong in reality? Not especially.  Middle of the road team, destined for the QF level at best given the last two performances. Which isn't bad, but nothing terribly exciting.

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Post by westisbest on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:13 am

For somebody who doesnt care about football or the England team, you do go on about them alot.

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Post by McLaren on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:18 am

JAS

"Maybe - In principle I'd like our country to remain but Jesus wept, The EU seriously needs to sort it's Poopie out if we're going to remain part of it."


Be more specific, what exactly do you think the EU needs to sort out?
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Post by pedro on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:30 am

Poopie = migrants?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:15 pm

McLaren wrote:JAS

"Maybe - In principle I'd like our country to remain but Jesus wept, The EU seriously needs to sort it's Poopie out if we're going to remain part of it."


Be more specific, what exactly do you think the EU needs to sort out?
Oooo, I dunno. How about getting its accounts signed off for once? Unfettered migration? Nice in principle; scheiss in practice. Maybe France and Germany might like to adhere to the financial rules they expect (force?) others to? Etc.
I'll be voting 'remain' btw.
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Post by JAS on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:20 pm

McLaren wrote:JAS

"Maybe - In principle I'd like our country to remain but Jesus wept, The EU seriously needs to sort it's Poopie out if we're going to remain part of it."


Be more specific, what exactly do you think the EU needs to sort out?

Beaurocratic waste for a start (have you seen the video about the crazy  lorryloads of documents moved regularly from Brussels to Strasbourg. So that they can be available when the parliament sits? Small example but not untypical.

Decision making. 28 diverse countries having to agree decisions. 1 member vetoes and its stalemate.

Structure, why do we need a Parliament AND a commission?

Then you get to things like the fact that successful economies have to pay for the unsuccessful ones. In principle that's the logical thing to do but on the other hand (and this is no doubt what pisses a lot of people off) why should successful UK and German economies subsidise Spain and Greece in perpetuity. Greece have no incentive whatsoever to better themselves and the Germans & Brits feel they get punished for being successful.

...and where are they with the harmonising of Tax legislation?? I.e. Making the whole charade of basing a company in the likes of Luxemburg to avoid paying Corp tax in the UK. We can't do much about the likes of Panama or the Cayman Islands as tax havens although the EU collectively should be negotiating those away too but to have Tax havens within the EU is just plain wrong.

Don't get me wrong, pan European working legislation is a good thing (hours, minimum wage, TUPE arrangements, maternity pay etc)
Free trade is a good idea
Free movement of people is also a good idea (the anti immigrationists who complain about Poles coming here for work forget that it can cut both ways as many Brits take the opportunity to retire to the likes of Spain, Portugal, Cyprus etc)


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Post by JAS on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:28 pm

When you think about the possibilities of a vote either way I think a Maybe would have been the genius option on the ballot paper.

If we vote yes, the Germans and French will carry on unabated with their self centred beaurocratic cowpat

If we vote No the EU will probably descend into political meltdown and bitter infighting and panic which would serve nobody's better interests (except maybe Russia's).

A Maybe on the other hand would serve as a warning shot across the bow that changes are required!!


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Post by McLaren on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:35 pm

JAS, but they are quite minor issues compared to the goal of spreading a lasting liberalism across Europe.

Haven't seen the video about the truckloads of documents getting moved about but not sure why it would matter even if it was true? How else do you move documents if not in trucks or trains etc?

I like that 28 countries are forced to listen to a wide range of views, I would rather have swedes making my policy than most of the people in England.


I don't know enough about how the structure of the EU impacts on its ability to create successful policy. It would seem that whatever the system the EU has done some great things over the years, some of which you listed above.


As for the likes of Greece, I would argue that the UK and Germany should have bailed Greece out with basically free money. We need to start getting used to the EU as a state and the countries as regions, so just as we would bail out yorkshire or the Highlands for free it is perfectly fair for the EU to bail out one of its regions.

Don't know anything about tax legislation but surely staying and harmonizing tax legislation would be better? Lets hope the EU can start to put pressure on the worlds tax heavens.


As far as I can tell the only reason that makes sense for voting leave is if you are a xenophobe and you want to turn the UK into a far right wing state with very low levels of immigration. And anyone campaigning for leave should be honest enough to admit that their whole argument is really about an anti immigration ideology.

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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:36 pm

super_realist wrote:When a player is hyped up by the British media, I always try to think if they were Hungarian or Finnish if we'd be fawning over them in the same way. I can't see anyone in the England squad who'd raise our interest if they weren't English. In fact, Bale apart, there isn't anyone in any of the home nations squads who would be rated especially highly.

Those players I mentioned might be of a decent standard, but they are clearly over-rated They'd barely get a mention if they weren't English.

I agree that the British media hypes up British players, and over-plays England's chances of winning.

However, big prem clubs have the money to buy whomever they want, they are no restricted by nationality. All the England team play regularly in premiership teams under foreign managers, who will pick the best person for the role. For example, if Joe Hart wasn't a decent keeper he wouldn't be first choice at Man City, they can afford any keeper they want.

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Post by beninho on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:38 pm

Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?

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Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

Joe Hart's a top keeper, but he's got to stop building protective walls in front of him when free kicks are 40 yds out. Who does he think he's playing for? Drumpf's US playing Mexico??

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Post by McLaren on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:50 pm

beninho wrote:Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?


Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe. If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK. Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:53 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:When a player is hyped up by the British media, I always try to think if they were Hungarian or Finnish if we'd be fawning over them in the same way. I can't see anyone in the England squad who'd raise our interest if they weren't English. In fact, Bale apart, there isn't anyone in any of the home nations squads who would be rated especially highly.

Those players I mentioned might be of a decent standard, but they are clearly over-rated They'd barely get a mention if they weren't English.

I agree that the British media hypes up British players, and over-plays England's chances of winning.

However, big prem clubs have the money to buy whomever they want, they are no restricted by nationality. All the England team play regularly in premiership teams under foreign managers, who will pick the best person for the role. For example, if Joe Hart wasn't a decent keeper he wouldn't be first choice at Man City, they can afford any keeper they want.

Yet, when you look at the retail price of English players (Sterling, Stones,  for example) it is grossly over the top. Being British, or specifically English, seems to carry some sort of price premium which is frankly not merited and which naturally comes with a certain level of expectation. Now, like American golfers who win multiple majors in one form of the game, being a footballer in a Premiership team, is no guarantee of any success in other versions of the game, such as International Football or in the case of multiple major winning Yanks, Ryder Cup success.

The point being that being first choice or a fancy dan in the Premiership, even if Mourinho, Wenger or whoever rates you highly for that format, doesn't mean it translates to International Football, which in Englands' case, it clearly doesn't.
No surprise that the very best players, who succeed in International Football, are not playing in the Premiership in great numbers, whilst the fact that every English player in the squad does is perhaps a good enough reason that being good enough to play in the Premiership is not suited to International success.


Last edited by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by McLaren on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:57 pm

And clearly the Premiership clubs are lacking compared to other teams in the champions league and Europa league.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:59 pm

McLaren wrote:And clearly the Premiership clubs are lacking compared to other teams in the champions league and Europa league.

Not to mention that those English team that have had success in Europe, do so with a smattering of UK players.

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