Women shrieking In the Sport of Tennis Compared to other Sports.

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Post by Guest on Thu 31 Mar 2016, 9:00 am

First topic message reminder :

It is well recognised that in recent years the sport of women's tennis has become characterised by certain players and the various noises emanating from their mouths when striking a tennis ball.  Sometimes that noise starts before the ball is hit, sometimes the noise starts after the ball is hit.  Sometimes the noise extends into the opponents play.  The shrieks emanating from Victoria Sharapova and Venus Williams has sometimes caused the crowd to laugh and to make sensitive children cry.  Azarenka has a strange extended shriek that extends into the opponents play.  Some people have compared the Azarenka shriek to Chinese water drip torture.  Some people have compared the Sharapova and Venus Williams shriek to a Jumbo Jet taking off.

Anyway my question is - is this just a women's tennis thing or does it extend to other sports?  In squash and badminton and singles volleyball there are no such shrieks. There may be the occasional cry and the occasional audible exhalation of breath, but it seems to me there is nothing to compare with the women shriekers that populate the sport of tennis.  [I think the shrieks are "voiced" rather than "unvoiced" - requiring resonance of the vocal chords].

In the sporting arena there is the occasional cry from the field athletes, shot putters, javelin, discus - but it is not repetitive and it is diluted in the enormous arena of the athletics stadium.

Personally I am physically unable to watch women's tennis which contains a shrieker - I just can't stand the noise, I find it irritating, it stops me from thinking about the match, it breaks my concentration, I get a headache, I have to leave or switch off.  Not all women's tennis players shriek.  The WTA don't seem to do anything about it.  

From all the recent discussion about "WTA being a parasitic organisation", "prize money equality", "market value"  ... it makes me wonder whether the WTA are really being responsive to its market, the spectators, the viewers.  I suspect it is being shielded from its market by the success in the Men's Game (with or without Federer and Nadal) and the way it attaches itself to the Men's Game..  I won't go as far as saying the WTA has a parasitic relationship to the ATP but I remain open minded about that label.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 6:48 pm

bogbrush wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
bogbrush wrote:You should have gone to SpecSavers.
Or Vision Express.
Oh how would I choose? I mean, it's medical, right?
I've given many examples and explanations on how it's hard for the public to really know for sure the private hospital is working in their best interests or trying to get more profit; you ignored those and literally talk to yourself.


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Post by socal1976 on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 6:50 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:But I do think, as many others do, that when it comes to healthcare there is a real issue with having the profit motive driving everything.
This is a huge flaw in your argument. Profit already saturates healthcare and with good effect.

It costs pharmaceutical companies hundreds of millions of dollars to get a drug to market. They only do this because they have the chance to make a profit. If drug development were left to non-profit state organisation, medicine would be light years behind where it is now.

NHS consultant doctors earn between £75k and £100k per year. They are earning a 'profit' on this salary i.e. it does more than meet their costs. What do you think the size and motivation of the work force would be if people with the talent and intelligence to be consultant doctors only got paid minimum wage?

Consider also that every bed, thermometer, X-ray machine, light bulb and toilet roll used by the NHS was sold to it at a profit. The need to make a profit forced the manufacturer to make the best product they could at the best price.

The profit motive has benefited health care enormously. As far as I can tell, the problems facing the NHS stem more from the functions that government controls.

.

First of all this is wrong. Pharmaceuticals spend more money on marketing boner medication than they do a research and development. In the US which has the most expensive pharmaceutical industry in the world with no no price caps, they spend between 10-15 percent on research and development and spend more money on advertising and marketing doctors than they do on research and development. I mean have you ever seen a pharma rep, usually it is some knockout girl they hire who failed as model going around pandering drugs to doctors. The vast majority of pure science and even in healthcare gets somehow funded by the government. The National Institute of Health and Science does most of the expensive ground breaking work. These guys spend more money on marketing than R and D, I know this because we just had this exhaustive debate in America on Obamacare.

In fact, most inventions in the last 100 years due to the cost and the massive infrastructure required to push the envelopes of technology in the last 100 years has been down to the government. Government financing in ww2 and government agencies in the Defense Departments of England and America gave birth to computers. The Space program of NASA gave birth to the modern communications age. The Internet was invented as a defense department initiative to allow troops to access maps and battle plans across any phone line. The jet airplane and Rocket were invented by Nazi scientists working for the German state. Tell me which private company would spend hundreds of billions on the CERN project that will not yield anything marketable for another generation, but may lead to quantum computing that will revolutionize everything? In the early inventor period everything was a lone inventor or small group or company taking off but in the modern era with the massive cost and advancement of the technology it has more and more required government financing or government joint projects with huge public and private non profit universities. This is where 90 percent of the ground breaking research gets done, the big corporations again use the government infrastructure and pure science funding and make something marketable at the tale end. Pfizer is great for researching the next great boner medicine but lets be honest about the fact that most research is government funded and initiated and often done in government entities like universities and scientific agencies.

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Post by Henman Bill on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 6:59 pm

Good news guys, you have won a Guinness World record for the most off topic thread of all time. The prize is an overnight stay in the NHS with NHS food included at no charge.

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Post by bogbrush on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:00 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
bogbrush wrote:You should have gone to SpecSavers.
Or Vision Express.
Oh how would I choose? I mean, it's medical, right?
I've given many examples and explanations on how it's hard for the public to really know for sure the private hospital is working in their best interests or trying to get more profit; you ignored those and literally talk to yourself.
Your 'examples' were hypothetical.

I'm interested how we know these guys aren't ripping us off, or making crap glasses for inflated prices. I mean, they're doing it for (quakes) profit, so it must be bad, right?
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Post by bogbrush on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:03 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I see you have the party line well settled.

Funny how the BMA is quite happy to endanger all the patients with exhausted doctors, so long as the pay is right for Saturdays. Laugh

It's not the party line, I'm talking about problems that are happening now, even without the new contracts.
This is from 2013, talking about the problem of exhaustion long before any change in contract:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2278685/Exhausted-junior-doctors-working-100-hours-week-putting-patients-lives-risk.html

The new contracts will make the problem even worse... talking about BMA arguing for Saturday pay is like them trying to quickly go into the kitchen and save the microwave before a hurricane smashes the whole house; the new contracts will make it less likely people will go into specialities such as emergency medicine which are already suffering from a recruitment problem, which means doctors in A&E will be have to be working even longer to make up for the lack of staffing and gaps in rotas.
But they'll do it for more money.

Kind of like a girl who says she's not a prostitute, at least not on those prices.
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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:04 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Your 'examples' were hypothetical.
No, I've seen them with my own eyes, it's reality. Why wouldn't they, the general public would have no idea (in fact many are pleased when they are put through more procedures/ get antibiotics or pills unnecessarily as it's reassuring) and it would improve profits. Are you the one arguing that private hospitals are altruistic ?

bogbrush wrote:
I'm interested how we know these guys aren't ripping us off, or making crap glasses for inflated prices. I mean, they're doing it for (quakes) profit, so it must be bad, right?
Because when you put your glasses on, you can see everything very clearly Bogbrush.
Opticians don't have the scope to overcharge massively, it doesn't have other factors such as charging someone per day they stay in hospitals, or charging people for a more invasive expensive procedure than an alternative which has the same effect but less profit etc.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:11 pm

bogbrush wrote:
But they'll do it for more money.

Kind of like a girl who says she's not a prostitute, at least not on those prices.
Well most of them will probably stay on in the NHS irrelevant of the contract change; a small minority will leave when the new contracts are imposed.
As far as I've seen the old contracts are not great (as I said every junior doctor works more hours than they are paid for in the contract anyway, so it's a bit farcical); we have huge problems with exhaustion already; and the new contracts will make things slightly worse in general, emergency medicine will be by far the worst hit- as new contracts mean less likely doctors choose it, it already has issues with recruitment, staff gap will see doctors having to work frankly ridiculous hours to keep A&E afloat.

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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:19 pm

If only I could post tht Abe Simpson gif, where he comes into the sytrip club, takes his hat off, sees bart at the counter and goes straight back out

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Post by Johnyjeep on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:36 pm

Exactly, they are just holding out for more money. I have no objection to that. That is their right. But don't tell me that patient safety is being compromised by these changes. When they will work the new contracts, if paid more on Saturdays. The issue isn't exhaustion for them. This issue is they want rewarded more for it.

And yeah, I don't believe anything I read in the media. Pretty obviously. I'm not sure why you think that? Is it because I don't agree with you? Is that some not so thinly veiled attempt at contempt because you believe your view  to be superior? I can't think why else you would make such a.comment.

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Post by bogbrush on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:44 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Your 'examples' were hypothetical.
No, I've seen them with my own eyes, it's reality. Why wouldn't they, the general public would have no idea (in fact many are pleased when they are put through more procedures/ get antibiotics or pills unnecessarily as it's reassuring) and it would improve profits. Are you the one arguing that private hospitals  are altruistic ?

bogbrush wrote:
I'm interested how we know these guys aren't ripping us off, or making crap glasses for inflated prices. I mean, they're doing it for (quakes) profit, so it must be bad, right?
Because when you put your glasses on, you can see everything very clearly Bogbrush.
Opticians don't have the scope to overcharge massively, it doesn't have other factors such as charging someone per day they stay in hospitals, or charging people for a more invasive expensive procedure than an alternative which has the same effect but less profit etc.
Nobody is altruistic, I keep trying to explain this to you.

You think they couldn't cobble together a way to rip you off? No problem, they could sell you glasses that lose integrity faster do you keep coming back, or they could tweak your prescription when you come in to sell you more glasses.
Problem is, they have aggressive competitors offering two for one sales and great service. So they protect their brand and keep customers coming back. Now they'll do your ears too, I understand. I bet they could do a great deal more (and even keep their appointments!).


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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:46 pm

JJ; I don't think the doctors will be happy with the changes, even if they their Saturday pay is cut less than it is in the new contracts (I don't think it's right you say 'paid more on Saturdays', that is fundamentally misleading as they aren't going to get a pay increase on Saturdays compared to the current contract.) The BMA are negotiating with the sole employer, and the government knows most doctors will stay on whatever happens (BMA negotiating position not great). So when the BMA takes an arbitrary position searching for some scraps, that's not the same as saying doctors are happy.
They didn't initiate the new contracts, it's not as if they suddenly started demanding more pay, they were ok with the current contract despite its huge underlying problems.

Exhaustion is a problem in the old contracts, and will be even more so in the new contracts. Especially in A&E and emergency medicine, which will face the harshest effects of even more exhaustion. It is an issue, maybe not so much for the doctors, but for the patients who suffer when their exhausted doctor makes a mistake.


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Post by Johnyjeep on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:47 pm

And then, even more astonishingly, after saying "if you believe everything you read in the media" to undermine a point made that disagrees with yours, you post a link to the Daily Mail to emphasis yours!!!  Genius. Obviously I haven't read it.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:52 pm

Johnyjeep wrote:And then, even more astonishingly, after saying "if you believe everything you read in the media" to undermine a point made that disagrees with yours, you post a link to the Daily Mail to emphasis yours!!!  Genius. Obviously I haven't read it.
Firstly I wasn't having a go at you with the media comment, if you want to take it as an offensive remark then.. ok, but it wasn't intended that way.
I'll repost the link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2278685/Exhausted-junior-doctors-working-100-hours-week-putting-patients-lives-risk.html

It's just an article reporting what researchers and the GMC found out, it's not a Daily Mail editorial or an opinion piece.

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Post by Johnyjeep on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:56 pm

That's not what I'm saying. More in the context of what they've been offered. Not more in the context of the old contract.

Fairly obviously, right now, working in public sector is not great. I work considerably more hours than I'm contracted for. So what. Boo hoo. By working in the public sector, especially on the front line, everyone is putting their neck on the line if they make a mistake. That is the nature of the beast. Don't like it? Move on. But, the books have to be balanced. This is an attempt at that. Those who are in it for the money, will leave. Those who are not, will not.


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Post by Johnyjeep on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 7:58 pm

I wasn't offended. Just wanted to understand the reason for you making that assumption of me.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:05 pm

Johnyjeep wrote:That's not what I'm saying. More in the context of what they've been offered. Not more in the context of the old contract.
Fair enough, thanks for clarification. I think 'want a smaller cut to Saturday pay' is an accurate way of putting it too.

Johnyjeep wrote:
Fairly obviously, right now, working in public sector is not great. I work considerably more hours than I'm contracted for. So what. Boo hoo. By working in the public sector, especially on the front line, everyone is putti their neck on the line if they make a mistake. That is the nature of the beast. Don't like it? Move on. But, the books have to be balanced. This is an attempt at that. Those who are in it for the money, will leave. Those who are not, will not.
The new contracts won't be affecting pay too much for vast majority of specialities (apart from A&E which will decrease quite a bit more than others, simply because of the nature of timing); but they will have to work longer. If juniors only cared about pay, then they wouldn't all be so angry.
I think vast majority of doctors will stay on, and everyone knows that, hence the actual position of BMA in negotiating is so weak.
You say 'boo hoo...nature of the beast'- that's fine- but not that many jobs have people's lives at risk. If politicians or most civil servants work longer hours than they're meant to, and get exhausted and make some minor mistakes, people aren't going to die. If exhausted doctor reads a dose with one less/more 0, then people could potentially suffer and die. It's not 'boo hoo' for them.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:16 pm

bogbrush wrote:
You think they couldn't cobble together a way to rip you off? No problem, they could sell you glasses that lose integrity faster do you keep coming back, or they could tweak your prescription when you come in to sell you more glasses.
Problem is, they have aggressive competitors offering two for one sales and great service. So they protect their brand and keep customers coming back. Now they'll do your ears too, I understand. I bet they could do a great deal more (and even keep their appointments!).
But even someone who has no idea about medicine will be able to tell if their glasses aren't working well after only an year (could be because of glasses being poor or because of change in eyesight).
However in medicine, unless you are a specialist in the field, there are many cases where you simply won't know whether this procedure is recommended, or there was actually a cheaper alternative which keeps you in hospital for less days and is as efficient.
I know how frequent it is in India, and the top hospital bosses admit it privately and many top doctors that our family know have said so in front of me, they say that they get threatened by hospitals if they aren't bringing in a certain amount of money. The US is even worse, I could go on about that too. We can't expect people to be altruistic if it loses them money.
This is getting silly, I'm repeating myself here, and you spend more time quoting and replying to yourself than you do actually reading counter-points.

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Post by bogbrush on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:42 pm

No, the glasses would work great - you just wouldn't have needed them. It's easy. But with competitors offering a better service it can't last. Brand values depend on reputation so the costs would outweigh the advantages. That's why if you go to Vision Express you sit in a really nice environment, you get looked after very well (I got offered coffee last time) and professionally assessed very smoothly, and they keep their appointments.

You keep on using defective systems to prove a point. Shall I demonstrate how bad the Soviet Union was at healthcare and use that to prove my argument?

And, for the nth time, nobody is altruistic, and resting a system on the hope they are is stupid and doomed to failure.
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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:45 pm

What, presicely, is being debated here?

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:48 pm

bogbrush wrote:
You keep on using defective systems to prove a point.
Yes but it's basically unavoidable if a private system. If people's motives are money, and they can do something that makes more money, with virtually no chance of the patient finding out unless they're also a specialist in the field; then why would they not rip someone off ?
Yes there are some bad apples within the NHS, some anomalous scandal in a few hospitals, but it's not a systematic rip off like we see in private medicine.


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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:51 pm

temporary21 wrote:What, presicely, is being debated here?
Just in case you haven't read it all; basically Bogbrush really loves Vision Express but I love specsavers, and we're both losing our cool over which opticians offers better coffee.

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Post by Johnyjeep on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:53 pm

This is like Turkey's voting for Xmas. You fail to see the bigger picture. This isn't just about the NHS. There are so many posts in the public sector outside of the NHS where a simple mistake can cost lives, it is not even worth engaging in a discussion to try and determine why a mistake caused by a Doctor leading to a death is more or less tragic than say an administrator misreading an allergen update from a food manufacturer.causing a child to eat something they shouldn't. The Department for Health hasn't even seen their budget decimated anywhere near the same extent as other Departments. So yes, very much boo hoo.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:57 pm

Johnyjeep wrote:This is like Turkey's voting for Xmas. You fail to see the bigger picture. This isn't just about the NHS. There are so many posts in the public sector outside of the NHS where a simple mistake can cost lives, it is not even worth engaging in a discussion to try and determine why a mistake caused by a Doctor leading to a death is more or less tragic than say an administrator misreading an allergen update from a food manufacturer.causing a child to eat something they shouldn't. The Department for Health hasn't even seen their budget decimated anywhere near the same extent as other Departments. So yes, very much boo hoo.
Yes that's true, I'm not cheering on cuts to other spending departments if they cause death. It is true though that it's more likely that a mistake from doctors could cause death/suffering, while I think mistakes by civil servants would be less likely to be related to death/suffering.
I don't say boo hoo though, if it's people dying due to exhausted doctors, or because of a mistake with an allergen update, those are both tragic.

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Post by summerblues on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 9:33 pm

temporary21 wrote:What, presicely, is being debated here?
Shrieking in women's sports; tennis vs others.

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Post by bogbrush on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 7:34 am

Good to know people only do bad things in the NHS when they're tiired. Interesting comments on how honestly is incompatible with NHS culture.

AN NHS whistleblower who raised concerns about patient safety was told she was “too honest” to work there, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.
Maha Yassaie, chief pharmacist at the now defunct Berkshire West Primary Care Trust, was spoken to by an investigator, Kelvin Cheatle, brought in from a private law firm to examine bullying claims against her.
According to a transcript created and circulated by one of Mr Cheatle’s colleagues, at a meeting on August 15, 2012, the investigator queried whether it was right for Mrs Yassaie to have raised concerns about her colleagues.
“I may know for a fact that some of the neighbours on my street are underpaying their taxes,” he said.
“If I report them I will probably never be invited to a street party or any other event. And this is essentially what you do. It is obviously not wrong, but it alienates your colleagues.”
Mrs Yassaie replied: “Surely you would feel you did the right thing though, if you reported your neighbours?” The investigator responded: “After listening to all this, I am thinking that if I had your values I would find it very difficult to work in the NHS.”
Leading a team at her trust, Mrs Yassaie first alerted senior management to a string of concerns in 2011. These included claims that a colleague was taking money from drug companies to prescribe certain products and that a GP was accessing controlled drugs and had used them to attempt suicide.
Mrs Yassaie said that she was asked to participate in Mr Cheatle’s independent inquiry – believing it would address the concerns she had raised – only to find she had become the target of separate disciplinary action, having been branded a “bully” by management after she made her protected disclosures.
Kelvin Cheatle, brought in by the NHS to investigate Maha Yassaie, said her values had made her work difficult.
It has since emerged Mr Cheatle appeared to coach witnesses against Mrs Yassaie and encouraged them to “rehearse” statements.
“We need to discuss their evidence with them and ask them to focus on why [Mrs Yassaie] cannot return to work. I have held Friday pm, Monday pm, Tuesday and Wednesday and
potential slots to rehearse… They should be asked to address their statements and how they feel relations have broken down,” he wrote in one email to the trust’s HR department.
Mr Cheatle failed to uphold bullying claims but concluded that Mrs Yassaie’s relationship with the trust had broken down. She was suspended from work, then dismissed.
She went to an employment tribunal and in 2014 Mrs Yassaie was awarded £375,000. The Department of Health was forced to admit that “the investigation and disciplinary processes… were, in some respects, flawed”.
After Mr Cheatle’s inquiry had concluded, a second inquiry by the pharmacists’ regulator, the General Pharmaceutical Council, was opened.
This concluded in February this year and upheld only one of 17 misconduct allegations against Mrs Yassaie.
Mrs Yassaie accused the NHS of carrying out a “deliberate hatchet job” and of “covering up” her allegations.
A spokesman for Capsticks, the legal firm where Mr Cheatle works, said that the report he produced was “wholly independent and based purely on witness evidence, objectively obtained”.
They said that the “case was the subject of an internal process and was considered by an independent panel”.
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