Aviva Premiership - Round 19

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Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Bath lose heavily to Sarries to start the weekend, with three players looking at season ending bans. Anthony Watson may get a short enough ban for his Red Card to be back for round 22, b ut will be sweating on the decision and whether it affects England's tour.

Kelly Brown and David Wilson seem sure to be cited for contact in or around the eyes 9at the same maul0 and will get a ban similar to Ashton.


Remaining games:

Sat 2nd Apr 16
15:00 Exeter Chiefs v Worcester Warriors Sandy Park
15:00 Harlequins v Newcastle Falcons Twickenham Stoop
15:00 London Irish v Sale Sharks Madejski Stadium
15:15 Leicester Tigers v Gloucester Rugby Welford Road BT Sport Preview


Sun 3rd Apr 16
15:00 Wasps v Northampton Saints Ricoh Arena BT Sport


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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by Jimpy on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 11:14 am

nathan wrote:Too soon to say that Jimpy, we haven't even had a full season with this setup I think you may be jumping gun a little early.

Don't forget it was cockers who brought in mauger.

And JDV. Genius that.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by beshocked on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:11 pm

Jimpy wrote:
beshocked wrote:Manu was excellent, if he can sustain that form at 12 and stay fit then I am sure Jones will start him at 12 with Farrell shifting to 10.

I think the most promising thing from Manu was his passing/offloading, great job of keeping the defence honest.

Leicester-Gloucester - very entertaining game. Shame for Gloucester but they just didn't create enough in the 2nd half. Still don't think Leicester have the right balance in the pack but the backline looks to be shaping nicely. Certainly in the centres anyhow.

Don't particularly rate Thompstone though - thought he butchered two potential try scoring opportunities, not a particularly big threat.

Had Tigers played well, that game should have been put away by half time. For the 2nd Q, Tigers were lethargic (the commentators made a point of saying it) and even lazy at times, just no urgency at the breakdown, no commitment and no bloody clue.

Symptomatic of their season, a better team would have put Tigers away. Tigers and Glaws are two sides seemingly desperate to emulate each other this season and the result bore that out. Its headless chicken stuff for too much of the time. Sad thing is, Tigers fans go into a match these days in hope of a win, rather than expectation.

Cockerill was fuming and rightly so, but you can't help think he's done what he can with this club and reached his ceiling. Maybe its time for him to go.

True but it made it entertaining. It can be a positive if a team's not at their best and gets 5 points.

Better team would have won yes but you weren't playing a better team - need to peak at the right time.

Tigers will have a very talented backline next season, just wonder whether a bit more emphasis should have been put into your pack. Strange to say that about Tigers as the pack has generally been your bread and butter.

I still believe Salvi and Waldrom are big losses. Waldrom might not be an international class player but at club level he doesn't need to be - try scoring machine too.

Should have got rid of Crane and kept Waldrom IMO.

Wasps have Hughes, Saracens have Billy, Exeter have Waldrom, next season Bath will have Faletau, Saints will have Picamoles.

Your first choice no 8 is Crane.....

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by nathan on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:31 pm

Jimpy, that's easy to say in hindsight, but we don't all have a crystal ball.

Some signings pay off, some don't. On the whole we normally recruit well.

Although JDV hasn't played much he has been mentoring Manu which should hopefully help him.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by beshocked on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:37 pm

Nathan how do you feel about your recruitment at no 8?

Surely Slater shouldn't have to slot in there?

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:46 pm

Slater arrived as a No8 who could cover second row originally.

Currently he is being played in the back row to accommodate Kitch and Barrow in the second row. Personally I feel that we should just decide on 2 from those 3 and pick more regular back rowers.

Overall no issues with the recruitment in that position - we have just been hit by injuries to 3 players who would normally be considered there. I think the money being spent on players like Picamoles and Vermuelan outweighs their contribution to the team.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:53 pm

beshocked wrote:
I still believe Salvi and Waldrom are big losses. Waldrom might not be an international class player but at club level he doesn't need to be - try scoring machine too.

Should have got rid of Crane and kept Waldrom IMO.

Wasps have Hughes, Saracens have Billy, Exeter have Waldrom, next season Bath will have Faletau, Saints will have Picamoles.


Tigers use a leaner, athletic 6 in a backrow that simply needs more grunt than flash at 8, had Mike Williams been around at the time then maybe Waldrom would've been preferred. As I've said before the choice wasn't really between Crane and Waldrom it was between Waldrom and Croft, who was much better at the time.

"Your first choice no 8 is Crane....." This is just clearly untrue, McCaffrey, Slater, O'Connor and I suspect (had he not broken his arm twice) Fonua are ahead of Crane, injuries/need for rotation permitting. 8 itself isn't exactly a position of great strength for Tigers, but without injuries the backrow as a unit would've been better than it has been for a few years tbh.

As for Salvi, I'll reserve judgement until we get to see BO'C string some games together, but I was certainly sad to see him leave. We'll hopefully have an answer at the end of the season whether the club made the right call.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by beshocked on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:54 pm

Londontiger personally I don't agree. I see how much influence the likes of Vermeleun,Faletau,Picamoles,Read,Hughes,B.Vunipola even Waldrom and Easter wield. Can make the difference between winning and losing.

Even Pocock played no 8 vs England in the RWC and we know how that went.....

These guys aren't just top class performers, they are leaders.

That's where I think Leicester are missing a trick. Jordan Crane is not going to be scaring the opposition.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:02 pm

beshocked wrote:Londontiger personally I don't agree. I see how much influence the likes of Vermeleun,Faletau,Picamoles,Read,Hughes,B.Vunipola even Waldrom and Easter wield. Can make the difference between winning and losing.

Even Pocock played no 8 vs England in the RWC and we know how that went.....

These guys aren't just top class performers, they are leaders.

That's where I think Leicester are missing a trick. Jordan Crane is not going to be scaring the opposition.

The one advantage of Crane is that he is a leader on the pitch. He has captained Tigers and the England Saxons previously.

The Tigers back row of Williams, BOC, McCaffery worked very well earlier in the season. Tigers big front five gives the option of playing a more mobile back row. Especially now the pitches have hardened up.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:10 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
beshocked wrote:Londontiger personally I don't agree. I see how much influence the likes of Vermeleun,Faletau,Picamoles,Read,Hughes,B.Vunipola even Waldrom and Easter wield. Can make the difference between winning and losing.

Even Pocock played no 8 vs England in the RWC and we know how that went.....

These guys aren't just top class performers, they are leaders.

That's where I think Leicester are missing a trick. Jordan Crane is not going to be scaring the opposition.

The one advantage of Crane is that he is a leader on the pitch. He has captained Tigers and the England Saxons previously.

The Tigers back row of Williams, BOC, McCaffery worked very well earlier in the season. Tigers big front five gives the option of playing a more mobile back row. Especially now the pitches have hardened up.


When we look at the effect the likes of Picamoles and Faletau have at club level - it has been negligible. Sure they are star performers for their sides, but the teams they are in have not been good, so they are merely shining amongst detritus. Will Faletau solve Bath's issues next season? Not if they are unable to fix all the other problems they have.

Sure I would love a big name No8 at the club - but not if overall it weakens the team. Bringing in Faletau say, would mean we would have lost Ayerza and Slater to be able to stay under the cap.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:17 pm

Also, short of breaking Crane's contract and being sued, releasing him and keeping Waldrom was not an option. One was out of contract and chose not to stay, the other was still in contract.

As to Salvi - like KC, and most Tigers fans, I was sad to see him go. However based on his performances this season and those of the guys we brought in, it looks like we lost him at the right time.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by beshocked on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:43 pm

Sam
If you Leicester fans are happy with Crane, that's your opinion fair enough. Personally I can't understand how a club as big as Leicester could be but sometimes us fans like to think favourably of our own players, if you want to stick with him I am not going to be too upset, I just think it makes it easier to beat you.

Londontiger Leicester aren't Dragons though or a stagnating Toulouse. We haven't seen what Picamoles and Faletau have done at their new clubs yet. We'll see if it's money well spent. Both are players I rate highly.

Waldrom won't be on the same money as Picamoles,Billy,Faletau etc yet I think he's just as valuable at club level if not more so.. - Available all season, scores a bucket load of tries, excellent ball carrier, hard to stop.

You are right sometimes a no 8 cannot do everything on their own but if you have a decent base then they will add more. Players feed off each other.

You can prioritise whatever position you want - quite clearly the backs are getting more emphasis than no 8.

As a rival fan if I was identify a Leicester weakness it would be at no 8. I believe you should invest in that area. If it means not signing a back then so be it.

Someone like Jp Pietersen will be wasted if the Leicester pack are on the back foot.

Look at Saints they have one of the best wingers in the world, North but he's not a particularly big impact. They have not got the most out of him IMO. Could be a similar case with Jp Pietersen. North will probably have a stormer vs Sarries now just to prove me wrong but as of yet I've not seen too many big performances from him for Saints.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:53 pm

Oh, not happy about signing JPP - think it was money that could have been spent elsewhere. However spending huge money on a No8 may help a team that is sorted further forward in the pack, or obscure some of the failings in a poor side. However it does not necessarily help when you have to weaken the pack elsewhere to afford the dosh.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by beshocked on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:09 pm

Londontiger hard to tell which players are the best value if we don't know salaries.

Where would you have augmented the Tigers team then?

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by nathan on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:10 pm

If we can get Fonua fit and firing...



Up until this season we haven't really bought expensive players, usually cheaper unknown ones and and then improve them.

It will be interesting times next year with Toomua and JPP.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:47 pm

beshocked wrote:Londontiger hard to tell which players are the best value if we don't know salaries.

Where would you have augmented the Tigers team then?

We have a lack of depth in the front row, especially with Ghiraldini leaving. To fix that we have signed a journeyman (Cilliers) and a project (McGuigan). Neither will sett the AP alight next season. I would have liked us to bring in a really good hooker to supplement Youngs and Thacker, preferably a big unit who would offer a contrast. So that is where I woudlhave spent the money rather than on JPP.

As it is we are still really a mid table team that is developing. The players that have come in this season have pretty much been an improvement on those who left - which really is all you can ask for from one season to the next.

Fonua was meant to be our massive ball carrying No8 - but he broke his arm twice.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:47 pm

beshocked wrote:Sam
If you Leicester fans are happy with Crane, that's your opinion fair enough. Personally I can't understand how a club as big as Leicester could be but sometimes us fans like to think favourably of our own players, if you want to stick with him I am not going to be too upset, I just think it makes it easier to beat you.

Londontiger Leicester aren't Dragons though or a stagnating Toulouse. We haven't seen what Picamoles and Faletau have done at their new clubs yet. We'll see if it's money well spent. Both are players I rate highly.

Waldrom won't be on the same money as Picamoles,Billy,Faletau etc yet I think he's just as valuable at club level if not more so.. - Available all season, scores a bucket load of tries, excellent ball carrier, hard to stop.

You are right sometimes a no 8 cannot do everything on their own but if you have a decent base then they will add more. Players feed off each other.

You can prioritise whatever position you want - quite clearly the backs are getting more emphasis than no 8.

As a rival fan if I was identify a Leicester weakness it would be at no 8. I believe you should invest in that area. If it means not signing a back then so be it.

Someone like Jp Pietersen will be wasted if the Leicester pack are on the back foot.

Look at Saints they have one of the best wingers in the world, North but he's not a particularly big impact. They have not got the most out of him IMO. Could be a similar case with Jp Pietersen. North will probably have a stormer vs Sarries now just to prove me wrong but as of yet I've not seen too many big performances from him for Saints.

I don't think we're happy with Crane but I think we have the players to put together a balanced and competitive backrow. Probably no big names there but good players and Crane wouldn't make the squad.

I'd expect a backrow of Croft, BOC and McCaffery for the Stade game with Fonua on the bench. With Kitch and Barrow in the second row and Slater on the bench we have some big units outside of the front row but plenty of mobility to cover the field.

JPP is a bit of a risk as he won't be cheap and for us to sign two expensive backs in the same off season is pretty much unheard of. Especially when no big name forwards are arriving. I'm happy with our recruitment and with the youngsters we have coming through think we'll do fine. If next season we look a little short then we can replace Crane and maintain the youngsters progression.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:56 pm

There's going to be very impressive backrows on show next season...

6. Haskell
7. Brussow
8. Hughes

6. Garvey
7. Louw
8. Faletau

6. S.Burger
7. Fraser
8. Vuinipola

6. Wood
7. Clark/Harrison
8. Picamoles

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 4:44 pm

That last one is significantly less impressive than the others Sgt.

I'd be more concerned over Clifford, Wallace, Easter and any combo Chiefs can out out from their four.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by yappysnap on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 5:19 pm

Sam next season it'll probably be

6. Robshaw
7. Wallace
8. Clifford

For a lot of games as while Easter is still playing well, he's looking knackered at times and you just can't ignore Robshaw and Clifford.

I rate them against any backrow in Europe.

It's our front row that are the concern.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 5:32 pm

That's the three that would concern me most if they lined up vs Tigers. Nice selection dilemma for the new coach to have.

When hasn't the front row been a concern for Quins? Seems to have been a while. Jones mentoring Sinckler will come good in the end, a little more squad strength is probably most needed.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 6:02 pm

I'm surprised with that Sam, Picamoles is a great addition and a huge upgrade on Dickinson.

I really like the look of Clifford, he's going to be star, but I find Wallace very average and Easter seems have less influence on a game than years gone by.....although still a bloody good performer.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 6:30 pm

Picamoles is exactly what Saints need at the base of the scrum. Wood has dropped off following the RWC and looks unlikely ever to win another cap. Clark I don't rate much and not enough to be concerned about playing against, I suspect Harrison will be ahead of him in selection for next season.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 9:00 pm

So we've signed a loosehead from Jersey.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by yappysnap on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 9:18 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's the three that would concern me most if they lined up vs Tigers. Nice selection dilemma for the new coach to have.

When hasn't the front row been a concern for Quins? Seems to have been a while. Jones mentoring Sinckler will come good in the end, a little more squad strength is probably most needed.

Ha, it's always been a concern except for that one glorious season when we won the Prem and Marler, Gray, Johnston demolished everyone.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 9:58 pm

The whole Quins pack was just on point that season Yappy. They were a nightmare to play against. Our pack was like that in 2009.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by yappysnap on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 10:22 pm

Yea sometimes everything just comes together, selection, tactics and luck and a team is almost unplayable.

As you say like in '09 back with old farmer Julien White helping you guys out (I think).

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 10:31 pm

A brace of open sides in the backrow, Croft and Kay commanding the line out and a selection of hard scrummaging props (Castro in his pomp and White as tighthead options with Cole coming through). Hopefully we can return to the dual open side style over this season and next and start a similar run.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by yappysnap on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 10:40 pm

It's no coincidence how the very best teams have the best tight 5's, Quins just have never quite figured that out though. Hopefully the new DoR (please Blackadder) will add that to the team.

Leicester could be close to that, you have the locks to build on and with Cole, Ayerza and Mulipola some very good props too.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by Welly on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 11:00 pm

yappysnap wrote:It's no coincidence how the very best teams have the best tight 5's, Quins just have never quite figured that out though. Hopefully the new DoR (please Blackadder) will add that to the team.
.

Lancaster wasn't know for the tight 5 really.

seriously reckon it will be Mapletoft.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 9:23 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:So we've signed a loosehead from Jersey.
A Loosehead from Jersey? This guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCa0mHmxvQ0

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 19

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