Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Page 1 of 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 7:16 pm

The difference between the Federer run and the Djokovic run (both mightily impressive) is that Federer did it with a style, panache and level of play that brought new fans into the sport in truckloads and got old heads talking all over again. Of course Federer kept it up for 4 years - Djokovic may yet do that - the opportunity is certainly there.

Federer, to quote Agassi, 'was the guy that came and took the game light years ahead'. Federer fans, and indeed tennis fans, will remember watching him play in those days simply to see what outrageous play he would produce next. It was magical.

Djokovic in contrast, aside from a good spell in the latter half of 2015, hasn't been all that special. If anyone has watched him this year, you'd note that he's looked far from magical. Most of his wins have been dull affairs. And that's not knocking him or his style. For me, he certainly has not been as brilliant as he was in the first half of 2011, yet, the form right now, which in terms of absolute level of play is similar to 2012 in my estimation, has won him numerous titles - easily. Ditto for the first half of last year - form wasn't anything special yet wracked up the titles.

Did anyone watch the Miami final ?- god awful tennis.
The IW tournament wasn't too hot either. He's laboured through the last three big tournaments in terms of form but has still won the titles and never looked in danger of losing. Clearly shows a huge gap at the top. The Raonic, Dimitrov generation is the worst since the late nineties (and much worse than that generation too). The next generation after that are too young to make an impact (or perhaps not good enough - since history shows that great players almost always make an early impact - we shall see) leaving the way clear for Djokovic to sweep up. The fact that Djokovic's main competition for the last 2 years has been an old Federer - who himself is still beating everyone else handily - is testament to the sad state of competition.

In essence he has become supremely dominant by just maintaining. Another aspect to this unprecedented dominance is the propensity of slow and medium paced courts which allow him to play the same game everywhere - the game that he's number one at. There's no need to adapt or change style. Even now, on a fast paced court (Dubai, Cincinatti) some players would have a decent chance against him but on the majority uniformly slowish courts, where defence and consistency determines the victor, the best defender in the game, invariably comes out on top.

So for me, impressive, as this run is in terms of results, the actual tennis has for large stretches been pretty uninspiring - and I guess that's reflected in the general uptake. Djokovic is not transcending his sport the way Federer (and he did even before the rivalry with Nadal had started) did. No one's talking about his accomplishments the way people did about Federer despite a 20 month spell that has been as dominant as any equally lengthy Federer span.

ghost

emancipator



Last edited by emancipator on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo :))

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 7:35 pm

It's a fair point about grace and style, etc, but I disagree that people aren't talking about Djoko's accomplishments. The tennis media are starting to get full of them and the longer this goes on the more it's going to build as his numbers are starting to rack up (see other thread I just posted on). I think ALL records right now are under threat...#calendar GS, #slams, #YE1's, #WTFs, #weeks@1, #masters, #titles...ok it's still a long shot but they are definitely not impossible the way it's going.

And yes Djokovic hasn't been great at IW or Miami but that's kind of the point here, that he's able to win even when nowhere near his best. The guy is arguably the best tennis machine ever...that's why he's so dominant, he just keeps on going and going, he's unbelievably consistent with few if any weaknesses. The only way to really beat him is to blow him off court and hardly anyone can do that unless they have a career best performance.

Trust me, I'm no Djokovic fan but what he's starting to do in the sport is racking up. Of course, many would say Federer didn't have real competition around 04-07...it's swings and roundabouts. Many argue Nadal has had the toughest time...vs peak Fed...and then vs peak Djokovic.

But it's churlish to deny Djokovic's talent. He's a supreme ball striker on the BH side, the best mover the sport has known (overall movement) and probably best returner too. He's not just great at everything, some things he really is the best at.
lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by It Must Be Love on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 7:50 pm

emancipator wrote:The Raonic, Dimitrov generation is the worst since the late nineties (and much worse than that generation too). The next generation after that are too young to make an impact (or perhaps not good enough - since history shows that great players almost always make an early impact - we shall see) leaving the way clear for Djokovic to sweep up. The fact that Djokovic's main competition for the last 2 years has been an old Federer - who himself is still beating everyone else handily - is testament to the sad state of competition.
Oh, hello.

It Must Be Love

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2013-08-14

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by It Must Be Love on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 7:55 pm

"No, not possible to measure precludes the answer being a (possible it's harder for Djoko now) or b (not possible). Think about it, how on Earth can you answer when the answer itself is unknowable?
To provide an answer is akin to religious belief; faith in something that cannot be proven. As I am probably the Worlds most atheist atheist - a position I arrived at having decided that that every reason for religious belief is a symptom of psychological disorder - I'm not likely to plumb for those."


Eman, you clearly haven't thought the quantum mechanics aspect of this theory of yours:
"Well seriously though although surprisingly enough the analogy between quantum mechanics and tennis isn't perfect, he does raise a point about concerning oneself with something that can never be verified. If trying to say which player had better competition within acceptable limits of uncertainty is as futile as say trying to say which electron in an atom is further from the nucleus at an instant in time then the fact that it's completely impossible to answer devalues the question to the point where it's not worth considering."

Djokovic 2016 Indian Wells Final: Djokovic 6-2 6-0 Raonic
Djokovic 2016 Miami Final: Djokovic 6-3 6-3 Nishikori

Djokovic 2011 Miami Final: Djokovic 4-6 6-3 7-6 (7-4) Nadal
Djokovic 2011 Indian Wells Final: Djokovic 4-6 6-3 6-2 Nadal
Djokovic 2011 Indian Wells Semi: Djokovic 6-3 3-6 6-2 Federer

It Must Be Love

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2013-08-14

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by HM Murdock on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 8:33 pm

Good OP. I agree with parts and disagree with others.

I agree that Novak often appears to be winning without great form. Miami was a textbook example of that. It was B-game at best and he won without dropping a set.

It's frustrating because there were spells of play in Australia that were superb. It was the opening sets against Federer that caught people's attention but, once he got past Simon, he played very good tennis throughout the second week.

But since then, Dubai, Davis Cup, IW and Miami all owed more to perspiration than inspiration. We haven't seen Novak at his best. It's hard to tell if that is his form starting to dip or just his tendency to play 10% better than the opponent, whatever level that opponent is at. He does seem to raise his level against better players though, so I suspect it's the latter. He seems to snap into form when he's threatened.

I disagree about people not talking about his accomplishments though. If anything, I think it's too far the other way and he's being over-hyped. All the discussion about "is Djokovic the best ever?" and how he is "likely" to overhaul Fed's slam tally is so premature.

Odd really. I think he went a long time without getting enough respect but now people are going overboard.

Lydian - if you see this, do you get any sense that kids are being inspired by Djokovic? Are youngsters at tennis clubs into what he does?

HM Murdock

Posts : 4749
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Danny_1982 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 8:46 pm

It's a bit disappointing that Novak can beat everyone playing pretty well, but not very well. I think it's partly because he's playing with such confidence. I also think the guys that were most likely to beat him aren't as good as a couple of years ago. Rafa obviously isn't the same nowadays, Andy seems to have got back to about 85% of his pre-surgery self but no more, and Roger is amazing but can't ignore his age.

However whilst him winning in third gear is a bit dull, I don't think that should detract from how good he is to watch when on top form. His athleticism and all court game can make for some marvellous matches. It's not his fault others haven't stepped up to the plate.

Also I really think he is building a legacy now, which will start to be reflected by more and more acclaim. He's now being recognised for just how good he is, and rightly so. I also think that will be reflected in more admiration from the fans the more he wins. Which we all know is something he craves.

Danny_1982

Posts : 3233
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 9:23 pm

There is a hidden talent that cannot be taught.  You can train and train, build up your muscles, build up your stamina, build up your flexibility and still not make the top 100.  It's the mano o mano aspect of the game that Pete Sampras said was absolutely key.  And that talent that cannot be taught is reading the opponents game, working out where he is going to serve the ball, where he is going to hit the ball.  That is the special skill that all the analysers of the game from outside the perspective of the players experience during the game miss.  

When you look at someone eye to eye you can tell things that just cannot be measured using a rulemeter, a protractor, a weighing machine, electrical probes ...

Djokovic has the flexibility, he has the shots, he is improving his serve, he has the stamina, he has the movement, he has the mental strength but that is not enough.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 9:35 pm

Not really HMM...they still want to be Nadal or Federer by and large.
The problem in a way is that the very things Djokovic is good at don't particularly inspire youngsters. Movement, returns, mental grit...all great attributes but kids like to swing the racquet with style like Fed or dress like Rafa. But mainly Rafa...never forget or underestimate his draw to the game/kids. He will leave a legacy. Djokovic tends to be an older persons idol. However, who knows over the next few years as Nadal and Federer slip into the games history...the kids may warm to him more but then I suspect they'll all want to be Kyrgios's with Mohican haircuts! Kids tend to follow polarised stereotypes, Djokovic style-wise is vanilla.
lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by HM Murdock on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 9:52 pm

That's interesting, Lydian.

Someone who is, say, 14 now would have been very young during Rafa's '08-'10 peak and still pretty young in '13. It's not even as if they've seen much of Rafa at his best and yet he still resonates with them.

HM Murdock

Posts : 4749
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:07 pm

Kids nowadays want to be Djokovic.  Why would they want to be someone that was not Djokovic?  That would be akin to wanting to be a loser.

That said Murray has legacy in Britain and recent kudus amongst the street yoof having won the Davis Cup for Britain more or less single handed.  Federer and Nadal also have legacy.  Nadal will be pigeon holed as the boyish tanned slayer and king of clay, while Federer will be considered the "artiste".  But for those kids who want to be the tennis heroes of the now - it is Djokovic all the way.


Last edited by Nore Staat on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:08 pm

Yes but those serious kids at 14 by now have already been playing for 7-8 years...most kids start organised tennis around 5-6 years old now...maybe 1-2 years later. It's surprising how quickly they adopt idols and are very aware of who the top players are as all their tennis gear is heavily branded. For a start I reckon 80%+ of kids in UK use Babolat racquets, and nearly all those are Rafa-yellow colours. He is a massive earner for Babolat. Not that many use Head racquets, and those that do tend to have the red/black-Murray ones. Not many use the red/black new Federer Wilson one either.
lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by socal1976 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:13 pm

emancipator wrote:



In essence he has become supremely dominant by just maintaining.

ghost

emancipator


I disagree completely Djokovic has never just maintained anything and that is why he is at the top of the pack. He changed his FH, he changed his serve, he improved his approach and net game, he is slice bH, his training and fitness. In comparison today Djokovic of 2015 and 2016 gets way more free points on his serve than he did back at his peak in 2011. So he is a much better server by being able to get more free points. This isn't my opinion this is the facts. Objective and verifiable where he is averaging about 1 to 2 more aces per set in 2015 to 2011.

Of course we heard the same argument mainly from Fed fans back in 2011 as well, back then Djokovic hadn't improved any shot the argument went, he was just fitter and that was why he was winning. So the argument that he hasn't improved since 2011 is not supported by the raw numbers, and even in 2011 most Federer fans were incredulous about Novak improving even a single shot and had his entire improvement down to fitness vis a vis Novak 2011 and 2010. My theory is if Novak could find away to hit a 150 mile an hour serve by bicycle kicking the tennis ball for an ace many Fed fans and Nadal fans would say that he hasn't improved or done anything new ever in his career.

There is this fedal myopia unfortunately which posits that Novak is the same player he was in 09 and 08 and that now he is only winning because the two greats have fallen off. We heard in 2011, when it was obvious to the whole world Novak's serve was better than 09 and 10, and Fed fan would deny it and just claim that he only improved his fitness. This myth of course is a good way to take the shine off of his accomplishments and to claim that he is the same player as he was when he was #3, and that he benefitted from Fed and Nadal falling off. When in actuality he surpassed both guys at or near their peak and is now playing a level of tennis that neither of them ever played or could match.


Last edited by socal1976 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

socal1976

Posts : 14212
Join date : 2011-03-18
Location : southern california

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by socal1976 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:19 pm

We have heard this all before, I remember having the same arguments with fedal fans in 2011, who claimed Novak had never improved anything from 2011 compared to 2009 or 2010 that he was just fitter. And of course the real tennis gods Fed and Nadal where just getting old. This is one of the convenient fictions used to further lionize Federer and Nadal, while being a bit disrespectful of Djoko. According to these critics since 2008 Djokovic hasn't improved any of his shots he has just gotten fitter and maintained his game and waited for everyone else to get old.

socal1976

Posts : 14212
Join date : 2011-03-18
Location : southern california

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:24 pm

Yes but NS do you KNOW who the kids are interested in or merely surmising from what you THINK they should like?

Look at this - based on what sell the most:

Top 10 biggest selling junior 25" racquet (ie. 8-10 year olds):
http://www.tennisnuts.com/shop/tennis/tennis-rackets/all-junior-tennis-rackets/top-10-25.html
Who is linked to the top 3 out of 5 racquets (and top 2) there?

Top 10 biggest selling junior 26" racquet (ie. 9-11 year olds):
http://www.tennisnuts.com/shop/tennis/tennis-rackets/all-junior-tennis-rackets/top-10-26.html
Who is linked to the top 2 out of 4 racquets (and top one) there?

Ok Djokovic is starting to creep in, but there is a clear winner, especially in the younger age group.

That said his Head racquet features higher up in the 21" racquets but that's for 5-6 year olds and to be honest they have no influence over racquet choice...that's the parents buying them, so again the older preference catches for the youngest entering the sport but as they get older and have their own preference, which comes soon trust me, they want to have Nadal racquets.



lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by socal1976 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:27 pm

I play with Nadal's racquet as well the fact that the Babolat Nadal has is the most popular is because the racquet is damn good at maximizing power and spin. I didn't buy the racquet because I am Nadal fanboy, I bought it because it was damn near cheating. I used to play with the Head Radical the Orange one Murray had and used to play with O3. The idea that players buy racquets because who sponsors the racquet is a bit specious. Most people buy that Babolat because it is a freaking flame thrower and in fact most of the people who buy that racquet are probably Fed fans at my club.

socal1976

Posts : 14212
Join date : 2011-03-18
Location : southern california

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:30 pm

This is a list of top selling adult racquets in 2015:

In 2015, the most popular frames, based on sales in the specialty channel (which includes pro shops, tennis specialty stores, etc.) are:

1. Babolat Aero Pro Drive 2013 (MP)

2. Babolat Pure Drive 2015 (MP)

3. Wilson Pro Staff 97 (MP)

4. Babolat Pure Drive GT (2012)

5. Wilson Pro Staff RF 97 Auto (MP)

6. Head Graphene Speed Pro

Nadal's is #1 racquet.
Djokovic's is #6 there.

https://www.quora.com/In-order-what-are-the-most-popular-tennis-racquet-brands-What-are-the-most-popular-specific-tennis-racquets
lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:32 pm

Maybe it is the parents that buy the tennis rackets for the kids? And when the parents buy the tennis racket maybe they buy the racket because it is a good racket for their kids rather than because it is promoted by a tennis player.

But you are right, I am basing my comments on solid guesswork. Smile

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:33 pm

The funny thing is I hate that racquet Socal, it just feels dead to me.
I play with Volkl Pro C-10s, classic 18mm frame, 98sq.in and loads of feel. It's also heavier.

Either way, Nadal's frame completely dominates the market...and it is based on the original spec he had...lightweight and easy to generate spin. Before Nadal's presence with Babolat they were nowhere to be seen on the charts, they were just a stringing company.
lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by lydian on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:38 pm

There is some of that in there for sure NS but it's a little chicken and egg...the racquet is based on his racquet and all the gear...bags, shoes, clothes are coloured around the frame...yellow and black.
But he is still undoubtedly popular because the kids love the way he unleashes the forehands...it looks like a dynamic shot so they levitate to it. Nadal revolutionised the FH technique more than any other player, hell even Federer modified his FH accordingly, and today's kids are playing more whippy-western FHs than ever before...some of it due to coaching influence some of it due to them being aware of Nadal even at their young age because the walls are full of Nadal images. Chicken and egg...
lydian
lydian

Posts : 9168
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Born Slippy on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:59 pm

Whilst Rafa has no doubt increased Babolat's popularity, it would be a major player in the racquet market without him. The Pure Drive was an awesome racquet which was gaining big market share before Rafa. Roddick was number 1 in the world with it.

Have to say I'm surprised the Aero is so popular. Is that UK? I know a lot of tennis players and no one uses that racquet. Also pretty much every kid who plays for my teams seems to want to be Federer. I've never heard one who wants to play like Rafa. A fair few now who are trying to return like Novak though.

Born Slippy

Posts : 4378
Join date : 2012-05-05

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by It Must Be Love on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:14 pm

lydian wrote:This is a list of top selling adult racquets in 2015:

In 2015, the most popular frames, based on sales in the specialty channel (which includes pro shops, tennis specialty stores, etc.) are:

1.  Babolat Aero Pro Drive 2013 (MP)

2.  Babolat Pure Drive 2015 (MP)

3.  Wilson Pro Staff 97 (MP)

4.  Babolat Pure Drive GT (2012)

5.  Wilson Pro Staff RF 97 Auto (MP)

6.  Head Graphene Speed Pro

Nadal's is #1 racquet.
Djokovic's is #6 there.

https://www.quora.com/In-order-what-are-the-most-popular-tennis-racquet-brands-What-are-the-most-popular-specific-tennis-racquets
Sorry L, that may just be me, I stock up on Nadal merchandise just to ensure he's a valuable brand for the sponsors.
Not just Babolat, I'm also NIKE's b*tch, I'm probably personally responsible for the opening of 3 NIKE sweatshops a day in China.

It Must Be Love

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2013-08-14

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by socal1976 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:19 pm

lydian wrote:The funny thing is I hate that racquet Socal, it just feels dead to me.
I play with Volkl Pro C-10s, classic 18mm frame, 98sq.in and loads of feel. It's also heavier.

Either way, Nadal's frame completely dominates the market...and it is based on the original spec he had...lightweight and easy to generate spin. Before Nadal's presence with Babolat they were nowhere to be seen on the charts, they were just a stringing company.

It lacks feel, but is the most powerful tour type racquet that Babolat makes. And frankly, people maybe first heard of it because of Nadal, but they don't buy it and stick with it unless it is as hot a stick that it is. I used to play with the O3 tour Davy played with, and the Head Radical Murray played with. I resisted the Babo Aero till my coach had me hit with it and all my opponents were using it as well. Not saying player sponsorship doesn't help the sales or the manufacturer wouldn't do it. But that particular racquet is not number 1 because Nadal is popular it is a flame thrower and the most powerful of the tour rated specs they make. Player sponsorship is a part of it, but not the main draw so to speak.

socal1976

Posts : 14212
Join date : 2011-03-18
Location : southern california

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by temporary21 on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:21 pm

Federers is more loved for two reasons over novaks
1) rose tinted goggles and nostalgia. People don't like their old favourite being usurped. The fed fans that don't like that he's being userped are the same as the Pete fans that felt aggrieved when fed was beating his records, with a lot of irony to boot. We've even come full circle to trying to label weak eras of competition without labelling it as such because somehow it's different

2) He has Nadal to help elevate his status. Though fed fsns don't often like him, having another great, and one complimentary to him in nearly every way turned them both into stars. It looks better not for some style cr@p, but that he had a legitimate red hot rivakry whilst doing it

temporary21

Posts : 5092
Join date : 2014-09-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:46 pm

I reckon if the kids were playing on the clay, they would all want to be Rafa. If they were playing on the hard courts then I guest it would be Federer and maybe ... hmmm the trouble with Murray is his on court behaviour is not something a kid would necessarily want to copy.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by YvonneT on Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:59 pm

Actually I think that Djokovic has also "took the game light years ahead" and I do think his tennis is inspiring, but agree that in general, that's not coming from both sides of the net. What seems like effortless domination now I think is down to Djokovic's improvements as well as rivals fading but from a neutral perspective, it was more entertaining and dramatic when he had to strain every sinew to dominate in 2011.

YvonneT

Posts : 732
Join date : 2011-12-26

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:27 am

We are in the era of the top one and it is not so clear how long this is going to last. What I haven't be surprised with is Nadal's rapid fall off starting with Wimbledon essentially due to his body slowly wearing out, but have been impressed by his motivation to continue. Federer has surprised me because for me he is clearly the number two - he has beaten Murray in their past five meetings. Federer has been making it back into finals again - I thought he would be dropping out of the top four and hovering around 5 to 10, but the old man is clearly the second best player in the major tournaments (not necessarily at Roland Garros). I have been surprised at the "fall off" of Andy Murray. In the last 12 matches against Djokovic he has lost 11. He has lost the last five matches against Federer. In the last four matches against Nadal he has lost three (and lost eight in the last ten).

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by summerblues on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:49 am

emancipator wrote:The difference between the Federer run and the Djokovic run (both mightily impressive) is that Federer did it with a style, panache and level of play that brought new fans into the sport in truckloads and got old heads talking all over again. Of course Federer kept it up for 4 years - Djokovic may yet do that - the opportunity is certainly there.
Leaving style differences alone, the hard numbers are not yet there for Djokovic.  Fed had this type of dominance for about three straight years.  Djokovic is just starting his second such year, so he is about about two years' worth of absolute dominance short at this point.  As it happens, if he did manage to get two more similar years, he would just about equal Roger in both his slam totals as well as weeks at No1.

I do not think Djokovic will do it, but if he does, I am happy to give him the credit for being on par with or even better than Fed (depending on exactly how the numbers work out).  But again, I think he will fall short both on weeks at No1 and his slam totals.

summerblues

Posts : 4550
Join date : 2012-03-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by summerblues on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:53 am

temporary21 wrote:It looks better not for some style cr@p, but that he had a legitimate red hot rivakry whilst doing it
I am not convinced you get it right here.  Novak and Rafa have played more matches than Fed and Rafa, and their matches have generally been closer and more competitive.  It is not all that obvious that their rivalry could not have been elevated to the same or higher status.

Also, why being so dismissive of the style issues?

summerblues

Posts : 4550
Join date : 2012-03-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by bogbrush on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 6:50 am

i think it's down to style.

Novaks very best shots are supreme examples of conventional plays: a spectacular reach to the widest of balls and a brilliant angled passing shot, or an amazing retrieval and reverse of a defending point. His current standard is so devoid of error that he leaves nothing for the opponent to feed off, hence the dominance.

Federers most memorable plays are just odd; the baseline to baseline half-volley against Murray in the 2012 Wimbledon 3rd set; the Slam-lobs against Roddick or Djokovic, or the countless tweeners, some at big moments. Federer was never as error-free as Djokovic.

In the end I watch tennis for brilliance, but also to be surprised with magical moments.
bogbrush
bogbrush

Posts : 11169
Join date : 2011-04-13

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by HM Murdock on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 9:02 am

^Very good post.

When I think of Novak's best moments, they nearly always involve conventional shots. They may be executed under extreme pressure (that return v Fed at USO) and they may be 'turned up to 11' in the difficulty of their execution (i.e. match point WTF 2012) but they are not unusual in a tactical sense.

I like that. I get kick out of seeing a player hold firm beyond the point of pressure or difficulty at which most other players crumble. But I also get why other people are uninspired by it.

Fed's highlights reel is a different thing entirely. It will be full of oddities that that one suspects were conceived in the moment, yet are still executed without any rough edges. The unrehearsed is made to look like an old standard.

A psychologist would have a field day working out why I was drawn to error free conventional excellence more than I was drawn to esoteric artistry!

HM Murdock

Posts : 4749
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by barrystar on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 9:42 am

@bb & HMM - v. good posts.

Djokovic's merits are obvious, and he is clearly compiling a set of records that will rival, if not better, both Fed's and Nadal's at the end of his career.  I also like the way he conducts himself on Court - acknowledging good shots and the like.  

But his brilliance is not marked by other-worldly virtuosity.  For me it is/was still worth watching Federer handing out an absolute cuffing to someone ranked well below him because of the combination of a degree of vulnerability and two or three 'how did he do that?' highlight reel moments that he regularly serves up.  Djokovic is more fun to watch when he is truly challenged, it is then that his ability to pull off under extreme pressure what others tend to manage only in less pressurised moments makes such a contribution to the many memorable matches in which he has played against his great rivals - both the Fed/Djoko and Djoko/Nadal rivalries have produced some of the absolute classic matches of modern times; for me more so than the more lop-sided Fed/Nadal rivalry which has served up some corkers, but not so regularly.
barrystar
barrystar

Posts : 2960
Join date : 2011-06-03

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by paulcz on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 10:24 am

It is not a rocket science. Nole's dominance is down the fact that he, except his excellent body talent and mental strength, gives tennis more than others and I just don’t think only physical side. Don’t lie each other, all top sport is about bodies and brains, the game itself is just derived from that.


Last edited by paulcz on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

paulcz

Posts : 177
Join date : 2012-01-29

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 11:29 am

There are more things in heaven and earth, you guys, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Listen to the great master speak:
Novak Djokovic (2016) wrote:A holistic approach to life is everything.  I can’t separate myself and my being, physically, from mentally from emotionally from spiritually.  It’s all one person.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:07 pm

His dominance is simply containment and neutralisation. In this day and age it's quite the potent package to succeed. It does on the eye appear to be rather rigid and almost routine. However, he does have it in him to be an aggressor. If we take Federer/Nadal encounters at their height they always lent themselves to contrasts. Novak really only has that in recent matches with Wawrinka. Where both absolutely bring the best out of each other.

The consistency with the rest of the field is the real issue. We have no idea how Federer will fare on his return and Murray's return to any kind of tournament winning form is anyone's guess.

I think Novak poses the ultimate challenge in which many players are unsure how to play him. That un-certainty eats into their game and thus errors occur.

Novak is covering all the bases at the moment and it seems it's only a Soderling-esq/Stanimal-esq performance that will stop him.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:44 pm

Djokovic has certainly got the pundits and tennis journos talking - but that's their job - to promote the sport. But he hasn't transcended the sport the way Federer did, brought new fans in. He's not even popular amongst tennis fans. There's a resigned acceptance that he's very good at what he does, but is the casual sports fan caught up in his story, his brilliance, nah.

Federer did that. People may have forgotten that mens tennis had been waning in popularity for a few years until federer came along. As SB said it was more than the rivalry with Nadal. Federer was already hugely popular by the time Rafa emerged as a real threat in mid 2005. Besides, the Djoko-Nadal rivalry has been much closer and played out so many more times than Fedal yet Djokovic is no where near either of them in the popularity stakes.

The point about Djokovic winning without playing well is to highlight the sad state of competition. The only aspect of his game that is better since 2012 is his serve - slightly. But I suspect, if he was pushed to the limit and had to endure 5 and 6 hour marathons to win a title, he would fall short, unlike in 2012. There may already be a slight physical decline (reflexes, stamina) but there's no way of knowing because there is no competition out there to push him to the extremes. There's no one to expose even a slight drop in physicality. This is the easiest mix of opponents I can ever remember. Just to iterate that point, if Djokovic had not been around we would probably have seen Federer scoop up four slams and 2 WTF over the last 18 months - that's ridiculous for a 33/34 year old and can only be explained by a serious lack of competition.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by HM Murdock on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 12:53 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:His dominance is simply containment and neutralisation.
I don't think that does him justice.

His defensive ability is often what catches the eye but his success is based not on absorbing an opponent's best shot, but on not letting the opponent take his best shot.

He hits his spots very well on first and second serve, has great length on his ground strokes and service returns, and changes direction well on both wings. This doesn't catch the eye in the way that a hammer of the gods forehand does, but it is aggressive tennis. He's looking to control the rally. I don't consider him to be a counterpuncher.

HM Murdock

Posts : 4749
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 1:03 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:His dominance is simply containment and neutralisation.
I don't think that does him justice.

His defensive ability is often what catches the eye but his success is based not on absorbing an opponent's best shot, but on not letting the opponent take his best shot.

He hits his spots very well on first and second serve, has great length on his ground strokes and service returns, and changes direction well on both wings. This doesn't catch the eye in the way that a hammer of the gods forehand does, but it is aggressive tennis. He's looking to control the rally. I don't consider him to be a counterpuncher.

On the contrary it does HMM. My point is the man controls the court. That's quite a skill to have.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 1:20 pm

Federer burst on the scene and started toppling the old guard almost immediately.  He had impact.  Similarly Nadal.  He started winning clay court titles left right and centre and it was clear he was a rising challenge to Federer on the grass and elsewhere.  Djokovic burst on the scene but was held up by Federer - Nadal, they were a bridge too far and so he slotted into number three.  Gradually he has exerted his dominance as he raised his level to Nadal and eventually overcame him - Nadal went pop and he has been toppled.  Same with Federer except it took a little longer to exert a dominance over an aging Federer.

Narrative is important.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm

barrystar wrote:@bb & HMM - v. good posts.

Djokovic's merits are obvious, and he is clearly compiling a set of records that will rival, if not better, both Fed's and Nadal's at the end of his career.  I also like the way he conducts himself on Court - acknowledging good shots and the like.  

But his brilliance is not marked by other-worldly virtuosity.  For me it is/was still worth watching Federer handing out an absolute cuffing to someone ranked well below him because of the combination of a degree of vulnerability and two or three 'how did he do that?' highlight reel moments that he regularly serves up.  Djokovic is more fun to watch when he is truly challenged, it is then that his ability to pull off under extreme pressure what others tend to manage only in less pressurised moments makes such a contribution to the many memorable matches in which he has played against his great rivals - both the Fed/Djoko and Djoko/Nadal rivalries have produced some of the absolute classic matches of modern times; for me more so than the more lop-sided Fed/Nadal rivalry which has served up some corkers, but not so regularly.

Its interesting how differently people see things. I agree with you that Fed is more likely to produce a moment of genius but, in general, I find his early matches in tournaments absolute tedium to watch. Basically, they usually involve some poor smuck failing miserably to lay a glove on his serve and relying entirely on Fed UEs to win points.

Novak, on the other hand, because he isn't as able to rely on one unstoppable weapon, has to work a bit harder in those early matches. There will be some rallies and the other player will have a change to showcase their own skills, albeit ultimately there is little doubt that Novak will win. I find Novak versue A.N.Other much more interesting to watch.

The times when I enjoy watching Fed play are when he is up against someone who is a threat and has some ability to actually get the ball back and make him play. Its only then that I feel he has to demonstrate his wide range of shot-making ability and really show the awesome nature of his game.

Born Slippy

Posts : 4378
Join date : 2012-05-05

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 1:41 pm

emancipator wrote:Djokovic has certainly got the pundits and tennis journos talking - but that's their job - to promote the sport. But he hasn't transcended the sport the way Federer did, brought new fans in. He's not even popular amongst tennis fans. There's a resigned acceptance that he's very good at what he does, but is the casual sports fan caught up in his story, his brilliance, nah.

Federer did that. People may have forgotten that mens tennis had been waning in popularity for a few years until federer came along. As SB said it was more than the rivalry with Nadal. Federer was already hugely popular by the time Rafa emerged as a real threat in mid 2005. Besides, the Djoko-Nadal rivalry has been much closer and played out so many more times than Fedal yet Djokovic is no where near either of them in the popularity stakes.

The point about Djokovic winning without playing well is to highlight the sad state of competition. The only aspect of his game that is better since 2012 is his serve - slightly. But I suspect, if he was pushed to the limit and had to endure 5 and 6 hour marathons to win a title, he would fall short, unlike in 2012. There may already be a slight physical decline (reflexes, stamina) but there's no way of knowing because there is no competition out there to push him to the extremes. There's no one to expose even a slight drop in physicality. This is the easiest mix of opponents I can ever remember. Just to iterate that point, if Djokovic had not been around we would probably have seen Federer scoop up four slams and 2 WTF over the last 18 months - that's ridiculous for a 33/34 year old and can only be explained by a serious lack of competition.

Djokovic is definitely far better than in 2012. His serve has gone from average to one of the best on tour. His volleys have gone from woeful to passable and his forehand has gone from slightly error prone to deadly. The only shot that probably hasn't improved is his backhand - although he now has a very decent slice. His smash remains awful though. He has managed to improve his game substantially.

Fed is one of the greatest of all time. Competing for the big prizes at 33/34 is exactly what I would expect for someone of that ilk - particularly with his style of game.

Born Slippy

Posts : 4378
Join date : 2012-05-05

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:16 pm

Competing yes, but Fed would have been dominating had it not been for Novak. That's not normal for any 33/34 year old - no matter how good he is. And even this year up until he met Novak at the AUS he was totally cruising, probably would have won the tournament without dropping a set - something he only achieved once in his halcyon days.

Novak's improvent in serve is apparent. The FH looks better because it's not being tested or put under pressure. Technically it's the same shot. Volleys make negligible difference to the outcome of his matches and I agree are at most passable. The slice floats and sits up - still hasn't managed the art of the low knifng slice that Federer and Murray can play. Overheads have if anything gotten worse - now he doesn't even attempt to hit winners off them - just plays it safe and guides it in. Movement - we don't know because he's not played any long or taxing, physically strenuous matches for ages - but all other greats have started losing a step around 28/29. Unfortunately, the weakness of the tour means we probably won't find out if Novak is slowing down until he really slows down. I certainly wouldn't say he is far better than 2012 - just looking at the matches he played against Murray and Nadal (AUS), and Federer (WTF) in 2012, well, I haven't seen him play at that level against a well matched competitor for ages. He squeaked through against Fed at the USO when Fed had 23 bps to Novak's 14! He's results are much better butbthen he's trampling some pretty pathetic competition - the mainstay of which is still Federer, four years older and slower than 2012 and nolonger even able to play five competitive sets.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by temporary21 on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:25 pm

He's so dominant simply because he's miles better than anybody right now. Done deal. Simple as. He's also better in every aspect of tennis. He has a serve that's hard to attack. He defends better than anybody ever has, even peak rafa. He can attack on the complete defence, something even Roger could never do as well. His offensive play is nearly as effective as rogers too, even if it doesn't look as flashy.

Put simply. This novak is the best I've ever seen a tennis player. Defends better than Nadal has, but can serve and attack with precision that looks close to Federers ability.

Put this novak in 2006. Neither Federer or Nadal would have the upper hand over him. Fed struggled against Rafas defence, and Novaks is better, and he is a more complete iteration of what Nadsl brings.

It's THAT fact that people don't like giving him credit for, citing some sort of style diffetence as the cover. The fedal debate never left, they just found a new challenger.

Maybe. Just maybe the same way we have credit to Fedal for raising the standards in their peak, we give Novak the same respect for doing the same thing. He just doesn't have a rival to match him right now

temporary21

Posts : 5092
Join date : 2014-09-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by temporary21 on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:27 pm

You can cry weak era all you want. THAT weak era inudes federer and Nadal apparently. He has almost never had an easy slam final, and has always had to face Federer and co for his crowns.

It's easy. The king is dead, long live the king. He has chewed up fedal and murray and spat them out. He's now waning up
Whose left. This lack of competition is because he's mangled all challengers, he's deserved it

temporary21

Posts : 5092
Join date : 2014-09-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:38 pm

Fluctuation*

*Copyright 606V2

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:43 pm

I don't believe in weak eras. It's always tough to win slams and Novak deserves full credit for doing so. However the competition can vary. There's no doubt that at the moment there is a dearth of competition. Not just in terms of all time greats but also just great or slam winning players. There are none apart from an old Federer, 10 years removed from his best years on tour, Murray, who hasn't won anything for 2.5 years and the proverbial hit-and mostly miss- Stan. The next level of players after these three are miserable. Rafa is a shadow of the player he used to be.

I wouldn't call beating a 33/34 year Federer (and losing to him 3 times last year) chewing him up. Those very stats and the fact that Fed has won a set at least in all four or their last slam meetings makes me think the younger Fed would have won more than his fair share against this Novak. I'd take Rafa 08-13 over this Novak too. He's doing amazing things but let's not pretend he's playing tennis at a Godly level that's not been seen before - that's just lazy short termism.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:45 pm

You're right he doesn't have a rival to match him right now - one is 34, the other has declined so much he's busy fighting off the Fognini's of this world.


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by temporary21 on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 2:51 pm

He faced both of those guys when much younger too. He's thrown both of them by the wayside

What's actually surprising here? He had to win most of his slams against two legends. Now he has nearly seen them off, you expect a still young set of players with nearly no major wins to suddenly be more of a challenge to him?

That's madness. It's even madder if you think that a valid reason to talk down what he's acheived, because there's no luck to his competition dipping, he's pasted any decent competition to the wall

temporary21

Posts : 5092
Join date : 2014-09-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by It Must Be Love on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:06 pm

temporary21 wrote:He faced both of those guys when much younger too. He's thrown both of them by the wayside

What's actually surprising here? He had to win most of his slams against two legends. Now he has nearly seen them off, you expect  a still young set of players with nearly no major wins to suddenly be more of a challenge to him?

That's madness. It's even madder if you think that a valid reason to talk down what he's acheived, because there's no luck to his competition dipping, he's pasted any decent competition to the wall
I think what Eman is talking about is the fact that the players aged 23-27 (who should be peak or near peak ?!) now don't seem to have any all time greats or stars.

Eman wrote:I don't believe in weak eras. It's always tough to win slams and Novak deserves full credit for doing so. However the competition can vary.

Lol. Even if we leave aside the fact I've always said I don't like that term; you know fully well that even people who did use it meant what you just said. It was always in a relative sense, no one was genuinely arguing that compared to your local club level Ljubicic was a weak player.


Last edited by It Must Be Love on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

It Must Be Love

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2013-08-14

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:06 pm

What's surprising is that no great players or even very good slam winning players have emerged since Djokovic and Murray - 10 yrs ago.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by temporary21 on Tue 05 Apr 2016, 3:19 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
temporary21 wrote:He faced both of those guys when much younger too. He's thrown both of them by the wayside

What's actually surprising here? He had to win most of his slams against two legends. Now he has nearly seen them off, you expect  a still young set of players with nearly no major wins to suddenly be more of a challenge to him?

That's madness. It's even madder if you think that a valid reason to talk down what he's acheived, because there's no luck to his competition dipping, he's pasted any decent competition to the wall
I think what Eman is talking about is the fact that the players aged 23-27 (who should be peak or near peak ?!) now don't seem to have any all time greats or stars.

Eman wrote:I don't believe in weak eras. It's always tough to win slams and Novak deserves full credit for doing so. However the competition can vary.

Lol. Even if we leave aside the fact I've always said I don't like that term; you know fully well that even people who did use it meant what you just said. It was always in a relative sense, no one was genuinely arguing that compared to your local club level Ljubicic was a weak player.

How can there be imbl? When most the slams have been hoovered by a powerful period of great players.

This is also actually not true at all. Stan, Murray Cilic and Delpo have all won slams. Those are all great stars... that Novak has decimated for the most part, because he is so much better than them. They have also all had some bad luck too.

temporary21

Posts : 5092
Join date : 2014-09-07

Back to top Go down

Why is Djokovic so dominant? Empty Re: Why is Djokovic so dominant?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum