Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

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Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 13 Apr 2016, 11:36 am

First topic message reminder :

Why should Zebre qualify for the CC ? It is a joke, and it is a scourge on the league that a team that can ship 160 points in 4 away games can get to play in the top level European competition. 


[size=30]Peter Jackson column: Stripe me! How can this Zebre side be Champions?[/size]

Zebre have lost their last four away matches by scores that could double up as opening stands at the T20 World Cup – 52-0, 32-0, 47-0 and 29-0. It adds up to a cumulative score of 0-160.
Despite those results, Zebre are on course to take their place in what Europe’s clubs call the Champions’ Cup, a grandiose description for a tournament supposedly reserved for the crème de la crème.
Edinburgh stand to suffer more than their Welsh rivals, ironically so given that they duly followed Leinster, Ulster and Munster in taking maximum-point advantage of the depleted Italians at Murrayfield on Friday night.  Scotland’s capital team may have lost a few games too many but they stand alone as the only club to have done the double over the champions, Glasgow.
Ospreys, twice crowned Pro 12 champions with not one but two Grand Final victories over Leinster in Dublin to their credit, supplied the Lions with five players for their last tour and may well supply five more for the next one, to New Zealand next year.  Despite their proven quality and ever-presence on the starting grid for Europe’s premier competition over the last 13 seasons, the Swansea-based side will be disqualified from the Champions’ Cup even if they recover sufficiently to finish seventh.
Some will say serve them right for a season of under-achievement, that nobody gets a free ride into Europe because it’s a competitive world – except that argument doesn’t apply when it comes to rewarding one Italian team for avoiding bottom place.
The same fate awaiting Edinburgh or the Ospreys could also very easily apply to a third club, Cardiff Blues. They are in the same boat and therefore in much the same danger of running aground despite having scored the most tries and most points going into the weekend round of matches.
Although seven places are available to Pro 12 teams in the Champions’ Cup, seventh gets whoever finishes there nowhere.  Rules are rules and the multi-national dimension of the Pro 12 requires that all four countries must be represented, including Italy, irrespective of where their two teams finish.
Treviso qualified from second last place because they lost only 18 of their 22 matches against Zebre’s 19.  Both are still in the bottom two except that Zebre have reversed the roles on the strength of a Christmas double over their compatriots.
Connacht were sacrificed last season although their seventh place did earn them entry to an abortive play-off series involving Gloucester and Bordeaux.      The intrusion of the World Cup leaves no room this season for any play-offs. Whoever finishes seventh – Ospreys, Edinburgh or the Cardiff Blues – will go straight into the secondary European Challenge Cup along with all those stranded in the nether regions of the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 12.
Altruism is a noble quality. Guaranteeing Italy a place at the top table of the club game gives some reason for using the word European in the context of the Champions’ Cup.
It seemed a good idea at the time, one agreed on the basis that the Italian teams would become more competitive. Instead they have become less competitive, jammed in the same reverse gear as the national team.
If the tournament organisers, European Professional Club Rugby, are not already under pressure to review the Italian arrangement, it can be but a matter of time before they are.
The rules, as agreed by the Pro 12 as well as everyone else, dictate that the first four Pro 12 places go to the highest ranked team from Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales. If, for argument’s sake, the top eight finish in the same positions as they were on Friday morning, Connacht (1st), Zebre (11th), Glasgow (6th) and Scarlets (3rd) would fill those four positions.
That leaves three more to be filled by the remainder of the top six – Leinster (2nd), Munster (4th) and Ulster (5th). Ireland, therefore, face the happy prospect of all four provinces making the Champions’ Cup for the first time. Wales face the grim one of their representation being halved to one.
For the chosen few, Europe’s supreme club event brings prestige and commercial clout.  In a true meritocracy nobody qualifies for losing four matches out of every five even if that means narrowing the horizon of the tournament and renaming it the FIB (French, Irish, British) Cup.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:01 pm

Well thats just not true. They'd be out for all they could get. Within that you have to consider some of the clubs would be under threat from additional teams. They'd have to increase their revenue alot if the new teams would be to get the same share and make up for loss in European money. They'd also be losing power. They wouldn't care a jot about anything else. Power and money both of which would put a stop to a plan like this currently.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by Munchkin on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:06 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would be surprised if the PRL wanted anything to do with any of the Pro 12 as it would mean sharing power and money. But if it were they would surely want the best I don't necessarily mean the best on the picth at the moment but the bigger name.

Funny that PRL were happy to share the ownership of ERCC with privately owned PrO'12 clubs, mind you.

PRL wouldn't deal with the North Korean set up of Irish rugby. We all know that.

"We all know that" Laugh

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Not quite can't more not wanted

Yes, I can see why that's the Irish narrative.

If the Welsh wanted to be in the AP and the AP wanted them, do you know what would happen?

They'd be in the AP

Its not rocket science

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:23 pm

Isn't it funny how these story's about the welsh joining the PRL always appear just before the PRL are about to start negotiations

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:25 pm

If the Italians can get their act together they have a lot to offer the Pro 12 it just requires someone getting things in order in the FIR, I wonder if Parisse will return to Italy next season? If so that could be a huge boost for the game in Italy and the league overall.

I have said elsewhere the other teams and unions should be doing more to help the Italians and develop the game. Glasgow stayed a bit longer in Italy to work with Treviso and help each other with the scrums which I thought was great.

Italian tv and companies have the potential to bring big money into the league if they can develop the game and reach a wider audience so its in everyones interests


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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:

If the Welsh wanted to be in the AP and the AP wanted them, do you know what would happen?

They'd be in the AP

Its not rocket science

Before or after the IRFU sued? Or during?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 2:59 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Isn't it funny how these story's about the welsh joining the PRL always appear just before the PRL are about to start negotiations

It's even funnier when somebody writes something like that in complete ignorance of the fact that negotiations have been ongoing for months.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well thats just not true. They'd be out for all they could get. Within that you have to consider some of the clubs would be under threat from additional teams. They'd have to increase their revenue alot if the new teams would be to get the same share and make up for loss in European money. They'd also be losing power. They wouldn't care a jot about anything else. Power and money both of which would put a stop to a plan like this currently.

You've added in this 'loss of European money' despite that not being remotely true.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:01 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

If the Welsh wanted to be in the AP and the AP wanted them, do you know what would happen?

They'd be in the AP

Its not rocket science

Before or after the IRFU sued? Or during?

Doesn't take long to blame the Irish

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Isn't it funny how these story's about the welsh joining the PRL always appear just before the PRL are about to start negotiations

It's even funnier when somebody writes something like that in complete ignorance of the fact that negotiations have been ongoing for months.

Phill I'm well aware what's been going on cheers

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:03 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Doesn't take long to blame the Irish

Because the IRFU would just allow four teams to leave the PrO'12, whilst under contract and whilst supply at least half of the TV money, without recourse at all, would they?

Or, if you are claiming that they would allow it then please be specific so that I can pass on your advice to those who may be able to facilitate this.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:03 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well thats just not true. They'd be out for all they could get. Within that you have to consider some of the clubs would be under threat from additional teams. They'd have to increase their revenue alot if the new teams would be to get the same share and make up for loss in European money. They'd also be losing power. They wouldn't care a jot about anything else. Power and money both of which would put a stop to a plan like this currently.

You've added in this 'loss of European money' despite that not being remotely true.

Why? I see it as perfectly logical. Europe comes as it bring together more teams at the top (or should be top) of the tree. Bring a few Irish welsh and a Scottish club into the Aviva, dropping some English and then Europe comes about throwing a couple of french teams in there. Not as big a prize anymore.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:03 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Isn't it funny how these story's about the welsh joining the PRL always appear just before the PRL are about to start negotiations

It's even funnier when somebody writes something like that in complete ignorance of the fact that negotiations have been ongoing for months.

Phill I'm well aware what's been going on cheers

Yep. That's why you wrote the word 'just'

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Why? I see it as perfectly logical. Europe comes as it bring together more teams at the top (or should be top) of the tree. Bring a few Irish welsh and a Scottish club into the Aviva, dropping some English and then Europe comes about throwing a couple of french teams in there. Not as big a prize anymore.

None of that is remotely on the table, so you've played the Lord Dowlais message board trick of dismissing Point A by fabricating Point B and then pointing out that Point B is worthless.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:07 pm

It would be. If we're talking clubs joining the Aviva, it would be down to power and money. If the Aviva clubs could get more money for themselves while ideally not giving a greater % up to the new clubs, keep an overall say in how the league was run I'm sure that some would be interested. You would have to balance that with loss of money from Europe as it would be beasically the one league now with some French in and some clubs at the bottom would fight it. So yes, you would need to look at the whole picture.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by Munchkin on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:08 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Doesn't take long to blame the Irish

Because the IRFU would just allow four teams to leave the PrO'12, whilst under contract and whilst supply at least half of the TV money, without recourse at all, would they?

Or, if you are claiming that they would allow it then please be specific so that I can pass on your advice to those who may be able to facilitate this.

You don't supply half the TV money. The Regions get to keep most of what they do get. The IRFU wouldn't be able to sue once a contract expires. It's the WRU and the RFU that would most likely block you and, not least, those clubs within the AP and Championship that would fight to keep you out.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Isn't it funny how these story's about the welsh joining the PRL always appear just before the PRL are about to start negotiations

It's even funnier when somebody writes something like that in complete ignorance of the fact that negotiations have been ongoing for months.

Phill I'm well aware what's been going on cheers

Yep. That's why you wrote the word 'just'

Ahhh fall back on semantics hey phill. Any way what's happening to this new league you were telling us all about a few months ago?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Doesn't take long to blame the Irish

Because the IRFU would just allow four teams to leave the PrO'12, whilst under contract and whilst supply at least half of the TV money, without recourse at all, would they?

Or, if you are claiming that they would allow it then please be specific so that I can pass on your advice to those who may be able to facilitate this.

The IRFU would have a problem with this but Im sure the SRU and FIR would too yet you just mentioned the IRFU, seems like you blame the Irish for all the woes in your world.

Did a girl break your heart and run off with an Irishman? Don't be bitter its the accent apparently and the charm, that bit you can work on thumbsup

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would be. If we're talking clubs joining the Aviva, it would be down to power and money. If the Aviva clubs could get more money for themselves while ideally not giving a greater % up to the new clubs, keep an overall say in how the league was run I'm sure that some would be interested. You would have to balance that with loss of money from Europe as it would be beasically the one league now with some French in and some clubs at the bottom would fight it. So yes, you would need to look at the whole picture.

We're talking of 4 clubs. That's all.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:
The IRFU would have a problem with this but Im sure the SRU and FIR would too yet you just mentioned the IRFU, seems like you blame the Irish for all the woes in your world.

Did a girl break your heart and run off with an Irishman? Don't be bitter its the accent apparently and the charm, that bit you can work on thumbsup

Oh, I see. You were being touchy.

Well, well.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:14 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Ahhh fall back on semantics hey phill. Any way what's happening to this new league you were telling us all about a few months ago?

Its not semantics. 'Just' was the key word in your piffle. Remove that word and the tone changes entirely.

What new league?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:15 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It would be. If we're talking clubs joining the Aviva, it would be down to power and money. If the Aviva clubs could get more money for themselves while ideally not giving a greater % up to the new clubs, keep an overall say in how the league was run I'm sure that some would be interested. You would have to balance that with loss of money from Europe as it would be beasically the one league now with some French in and some clubs at the bottom would fight it. So yes, you would need to look at the whole picture.

We're talking of 4 clubs. That's all.

Leinster, Munster, Glasgow and Scarlets or Ospreys?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:
You don't supply half the TV money. The Regions get to keep most of what they do get. The IRFU wouldn't be able to sue once a contract expires. It's the WRU and the RFU that would most likely block you and, not least, those clubs within the AP and Championship that would fight to keep you out.

There is £10m in the PrO'12 pot. £3.2m of that comes directly from BBC Wales. Sky put in £5m. It's not beyond the wit of man to work out that Wales puts in half of the money, therefore.

Where's the evidence that 'most' is kept?

You're right about what happens when the contract expires.

You're aware that nothing can be done without PRL working together en masse - all 14 members - so none would block. You're also aware that PRL want to end promotion / relegation, so the Championship clubs wouldn't have a stick. You're also aware that the RFU have ceded competition control to PRL and you're also aware that the new WRU are pals with PRW.

So what the hell are you on about?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Leinster, Munster, Glasgow and Scarlets or Ospreys?

No: Llanelli, Cardiff, Ospreys and Newport.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:18 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
The IRFU would have a problem with this but Im sure the SRU and FIR would too yet you just mentioned the IRFU, seems like you blame the Irish for all the woes in your world.

Did a girl break your heart and run off with an Irishman? Don't be bitter its the accent apparently and the charm, that bit you can work on thumbsup

Oh, I see. You were being touchy.

Well, well.

Actually you are the ones that's touchy and quite bitter too

I was highlighting that you blame the Irish when in fact theres more than the Irish there, at least in the real world, in your mind Im not so sure Rolling Eyes

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Actually you are the ones that's touchy and quite bitter too

I was highlighting that you blame the Irish when in fact theres more than the Irish there, at least in the real world, in your mind Im not so sure Rolling Eyes

I mentioned the IRFU in the response to you because the IRFU control pro rugby in your country. It does seem to touch a nerve of yours.

Maybe its time for rugby in your country to stand on its own two feet?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:20 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Leinster, Munster, Glasgow and Scarlets or Ospreys?

No: Llanelli, Cardiff, Ospreys and Newport.

Why would the PRL want that? No money there. Weakens the Pro 12 as well, thus weakening Europe (which could be seen as good thing increasing the chances of English progression) but also a lesser comp. And losing 4 English clubs from the prem. I can see why some Wlesh would like that, why would the English?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Actually you are the ones that's touchy and quite bitter too

I was highlighting that you blame the Irish when in fact theres more than the Irish there, at least in the real world, in your mind Im not so sure Rolling Eyes

I mentioned the IRFU in the response to you because the IRFU control pro rugby in your country. It does seem to touch a nerve of yours.

Maybe its time for rugby in your country to stand on its own two feet?

But we weren't talking about rugby in my country we were talking about the league

Maybe the regions should learn to stand out on their own two feet rather than trying to suckle on the teats of the WRU and AP or whoever has the money this week

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:25 pm

I find it amusing that you honestly belive the PRL want the welsh teams. They would do nothing for the PRLs end game, which as you line to point out is control of the English national team.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by munkian on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:27 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Actually you are the ones that's touchy and quite bitter too

I was highlighting that you blame the Irish when in fact theres more than the Irish there, at least in the real world, in your mind Im not so sure Rolling Eyes

I mentioned the IRFU in the response to you because the IRFU control pro rugby in your country. It does seem to touch a nerve of yours.

Maybe its time for rugby in your country to stand on its own two feet?

But we weren't talking about rugby in my country we were talking about the league

Maybe the regions should learn to stand out on their own two feet rather than trying to suckle on the teats of the WRU and AP or whoever has the money this week

Suckle on the teats of WRU ? Please explain where you think the WRU gets its money from ?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:36 pm

munkian wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Actually you are the ones that's touchy and quite bitter too

I was highlighting that you blame the Irish when in fact theres more than the Irish there, at least in the real world, in your mind Im not so sure Rolling Eyes

I mentioned the IRFU in the response to you because the IRFU control pro rugby in your country. It does seem to touch a nerve of yours.

Maybe its time for rugby in your country to stand on its own two feet?

But we weren't talking about rugby in my country we were talking about the league

Maybe the regions should learn to stand out on their own two feet rather than trying to suckle on the teats of the WRU and AP or whoever has the money this week

Suckle on the teats of WRU ? Please explain where you think the WRU gets its money from ?

You mean all its sources or are you meaning they also get income from the Regions?

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by munkian on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:38 pm

I was asking you and you answer with a question, this will go well.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:39 pm

Sorry I worded my response poorly, I meant are you pointing to the fact that some of the WRUs income is derived from the Regions?

I took it that was the point you were trying to make

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by munkian on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:Sorry I worded my response poorly, I meant are you pointing to the fact that some of the WRUs income is derived from the Regions?

I took it that was the point you were trying to make

I'd say the majority of WRU's income comes from the regions.

I just think its an odd point to make considering its not really true plus the four proud provinces of Ireland are IRFU owned.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:53 pm

munkian wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Sorry I worded my response poorly, I meant are you pointing to the fact that some of the WRUs income is derived from the Regions?

I took it that was the point you were trying to make

I'd say the majority of WRU's income comes from the regions.

I just think its an odd point to make considering its not really true plus the four proud provinces of Ireland are IRFU owned.

The majority of the WRUs income comes from the Welsh national team just as the IRFU get most of theirs from the Irish team

The point I was making was that the Regions don't stand on their own two feet, if they aren't banging on the WRUs door asking for money they are wanting to join the AP or the whole mess that was the creation of the ERCC

Yet again we have another thread derailed though by Phils whinging

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by Munchkin on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
You don't supply half the TV money. The Regions get to keep most of what they do get. The IRFU wouldn't be able to sue once a contract expires. It's the WRU and the RFU that would most likely block you and, not least, those clubs within the AP and Championship that would fight to keep you out.

There is £10m in the PrO'12 pot. £3.2m of that comes directly from BBC Wales. Sky put in £5m. It's not beyond the wit of man to work out that Wales puts in half of the money, therefore.

Where's the evidence that 'most' is kept?

You're right about what happens when the contract expires.

You're aware that nothing can be done without PRL working together en masse - all 14 members - so none would block. You're also aware that PRL want to end promotion / relegation, so the Championship clubs wouldn't have a stick. You're also aware that the RFU have ceded competition control to PRL and you're also aware that the new WRU are pals with PRW.

So what the hell are you on about?

Are you saying that Wales also provide the £2.8m, on top of the £3.2m, to make your half?

Are you denying that under the previous deal, 70% of your broadcasting fees weren't paid back to the Regions?

Why on earth do you think none would block? You live in your own little world of made-up facts. RFU may well have ceded control to PRL, but bringing in clubs, from across the border would need the agreement of both the RFU and the WRU.

Love when you get all angry when your facts are shown to be nothing more than weak opinions Very Happy

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:03 pm

Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
You don't supply half the TV money. The Regions get to keep most of what they do get. The IRFU wouldn't be able to sue once a contract expires. It's the WRU and the RFU that would most likely block you and, not least, those clubs within the AP and Championship that would fight to keep you out.

There is £10m in the PrO'12 pot. £3.2m of that comes directly from BBC Wales. Sky put in £5m. It's not beyond the wit of man to work out that Wales puts in half of the money, therefore.

Where's the evidence that 'most' is kept?

You're right about what happens when the contract expires.

You're aware that nothing can be done without PRL working together en masse - all 14 members - so none would block. You're also aware that PRL want to end promotion / relegation, so the Championship clubs wouldn't have a stick. You're also aware that the RFU have ceded competition control to PRL and you're also aware that the new WRU are pals with PRW.

So what the hell are you on about?

Are you saying that Wales also provide the £2.8m, on top of the £3.2m, to make your half?

Are you denying that under the previous deal, 70% of your broadcasting fees weren't paid back to the Regions?

Why on earth do you think none would block? You live in your own little world of made-up facts. RFU may well have ceded control to PRL, but bringing in clubs, from across the border, would need the agreement of both the RFU and the WRU.

Love when you get all angry when your facts are shown to be nothing more than weak opinions Very Happy

Munchkin don't you know how generous the PRL guys are, of course they would want more teams to eat into their share of the income for the league and more games because that's what the need. Especially now the French are talking about cutting two teams from the Top 14 and cramming the 6Ns into 5 consecutive weeks

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by Munchkin on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:07 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
You don't supply half the TV money. The Regions get to keep most of what they do get. The IRFU wouldn't be able to sue once a contract expires. It's the WRU and the RFU that would most likely block you and, not least, those clubs within the AP and Championship that would fight to keep you out.

There is £10m in the PrO'12 pot. £3.2m of that comes directly from BBC Wales. Sky put in £5m. It's not beyond the wit of man to work out that Wales puts in half of the money, therefore.

Where's the evidence that 'most' is kept?

You're right about what happens when the contract expires.

You're aware that nothing can be done without PRL working together en masse - all 14 members - so none would block. You're also aware that PRL want to end promotion / relegation, so the Championship clubs wouldn't have a stick. You're also aware that the RFU have ceded competition control to PRL and you're also aware that the new WRU are pals with PRW.

So what the hell are you on about?

Are you saying that Wales also provide the £2.8m, on top of the £3.2m, to make your half?

Are you denying that under the previous deal, 70% of your broadcasting fees weren't paid back to the Regions?

Why on earth do you think none would block? You live in your own little world of made-up facts. RFU may well have ceded control to PRL, but bringing in clubs, from across the border, would need the agreement of both the RFU and the WRU.

Love when you get all angry when your facts are shown to be nothing more than weak opinions Very Happy

Munchkin don't you know how generous the PRL guys are, of course they would want more teams to eat into their share of the income for the league and more games because that's what the need. Especially now the French are talking about cutting two teams from the Top 14 and cramming the 6Ns into 5 consecutive weeks

He lives in a little world of his own. In his world turkeys vote for Christmas

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:23 pm

For all his complaining about union run teams the greatest stability in the league has come from the union run teams especially the Irish teams as Wales have had regionalisation, the infighting between the WRU and PRW, threatening to pull out (which I always thought was more an Irish thing Whistle ), Italy have been in and out, lost Aironi and set up Zebre though Scotland did lose the Borders.

If the league can have a period of stability it might have a bit of time to grow a bit faster

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Why would the PRL want that? No money there. Weakens the Pro 12 as well, thus weakening Europe (which could be seen as good thing increasing the chances of English progression) but also a lesser comp. And losing 4 English clubs from the prem. I can see why some Wlesh would like that, why would the English?

Because PRL have a long working relationship with the Welsh teams, because the Welsh teams have the same ownership model and because there is no Union ownership.

There's lots of money in the potential of combining what is already one trading market. The four Welsh teams are in easy travel distance for a number of PRL teams.

Nobody has mentioned losing English teams from the Prem. There you go again fabricating stuff.
It won't weaken Europe. Another fabrication.

And who cares about the PrO'12? it's broken. Even the new MD can see that.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:32 pm

marty2086 wrote:

But we weren't talking about rugby in my country we were talking about the league

Maybe the regions should learn to stand out on their own two feet rather than trying to suckle on the teats of the WRU and AP or whoever has the money this week

Oh the irony of that coming from an Irish rugby follower. It's shameless in its chutzpah, or stupidity, dependent upon your viewpoint.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:32 pm

carpet baboon wrote:I find it amusing that you honestly belive the PRL want the welsh teams. They would do nothing for the PRLs end game, which as you line to point out is control of the English national team.

Erm, but it would provide them with an ally in that move. If you think about it....

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:34 pm

marty2086 wrote:

The majority of the WRUs income comes from the Welsh national team just as the IRFU get most of theirs from the Irish team

The point I was making was that the Regions don't stand on their own two feet, if they aren't banging on the WRUs door asking for money they are wanting to join the AP or the whole mess that was the creation of the ERCC

Yet again we have another thread derailed though by Phils whinging

Hilarious.

Somebody can't work out that the WRU is a customer of PRW.

ERCC was a mess because of IRFU intransigence and the almighty pillock that is Roger Lewis.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:36 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Are you saying that Wales also provide the £2.8m, on top of the £3.2m, to make your half?

Are you denying that under the previous deal, 70% of your broadcasting fees weren't paid back to the Regions?

Why on earth do you think none would block? You live in your own little world of made-up facts. RFU may well have ceded control to PRL, but bringing in clubs, from across the border would need the agreement of both the RFU and the WRU.

Love when you get all angry when your facts are shown to be nothing more than weak opinions Very Happy

£2.8m + £3.2m = £6m. Half of £10m is £5m. So why are you asking about £2.8m?

The key words in your second sentence are "previous deal". Do you have any evidence for the existing deal? If so, I'd love to read it.

Sure a new competition / augmented competition would require both Unions agreement, under the present set up of laws, but I'd just pointed out to you that neither has a reason to not agree.

When you consider the response, that final sentence of yours doesn't half make you look stupid.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin don't you know how generous the PRL guys are, of course they would want more teams to eat into their share of the income for the league and more games because that's what the need. Especially now the French are talking about cutting two teams from the Top 14 and cramming the 6Ns into 5 consecutive weeks

Another dumbo who seems content to fabricate an argument ('eat into their share') in order to try to disprove a very different point.

The French season doesn't fit with the summer tour window. That's why they are wanting changes. Of course, that window may well change in 2020.

Well done, marty. You fabricated two completely irrelevant points there. Excellent.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:For all his complaining about union run teams the greatest stability in the league has come from the union run teams especially the Irish teams as Wales have had regionalisation, the infighting between the WRU and PRW, threatening to pull out (which I always thought was more an Irish thing Whistle ), Italy have been in and out, lost Aironi and set up Zebre though Scotland did lose the Borders.

If the league can have a period of stability it might have a bit of time to grow a bit faster

Sure, it's stable in Ireland. €900k worth of stable.

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:45 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin don't you know how generous the PRL guys are, of course they would want more teams to eat into their share of the income for the league and more games because that's what the need. Especially now the French are talking about cutting two teams from the Top 14 and cramming the 6Ns into 5 consecutive weeks

Another dumbo who seems content to fabricate an argument ('eat into their share') in order to try to disprove a very different point.

The French season doesn't fit with the summer tour window. That's why they are wanting changes. Of course, that window may well change in 2020.

Well done, marty. You fabricated two completely irrelevant points there. Excellent.

How is it irrelevant that that are 12 teams getting £x each? Are you saying x stays the same if the Welsh join? Is there extra income coming from somewhere?

The possible changes in France is relevant because if they are playing less games that means a greater opportunity to prepare for the ERCC games, coupled with a possible new player welfare system for a core group of French players like the IRFU have, a greater focus on how many games they play. You think this won't affect the competiveness?

Nothing has been fabricated as these are plausible scenarios, if they are then that would mean you argument over the IRFU suing the Regions was fabricated too Rolling Eyes

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:For all his complaining about union run teams the greatest stability in the league has come from the union run teams especially the Irish teams as Wales have had regionalisation, the infighting between the WRU and PRW, threatening to pull out (which I always thought was more an Irish thing Whistle ), Italy have been in and out, lost Aironi and set up Zebre though Scotland did lose the Borders.

If the league can have a period of stability it might have a bit of time to grow a bit faster

Sure, it's stable in Ireland. €900k worth of stable.

Headscratch

Good one thumbsup Whistle

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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by Munchkin on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:For all his complaining about union run teams the greatest stability in the league has come from the union run teams especially the Irish teams as Wales have had regionalisation, the infighting between the WRU and PRW, threatening to pull out (which I always thought was more an Irish thing Whistle ), Italy have been in and out, lost Aironi and set up Zebre though Scotland did lose the Borders.

If the league can have a period of stability it might have a bit of time to grow a bit faster

Teams come and go, as with promotion and relegation, but it's more important that teams remain and grow, within PRO12. The Welsh infighting has been a factor that threatened stability, but honestly don't think it's a real threat looking forward. A lot of bluster, and the aim of a few like Phil. They want an unstable PRO12. They want it to fail, and try to create a sense of failing with all their conspiracy theories, and prophesies of doom and gloom. The truth is that PRO12 is a growing success, and one that is presently exploring ways to improve the product, expand the appeal, and increase the revenue. I don't know if there's any truth in SKY wanting sole broadcasting rights but, if true, they would have to pay a significant amount more than the present PRO12 deals provide. Might effect our Friday games though Sad


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Re: Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:

How is it irrelevant that that are 12 teams getting £x each? Are you saying x stays the same if the Welsh join? Is there extra income coming from somewhere?

The possible changes in France is relevant because if they are playing less games that means a greater opportunity to prepare for the ERCC games, coupled with a possible new player welfare system for a core group of French players like the IRFU have, a greater focus on how many games they play. You think this won't affect the competiveness?

Nothing has been fabricated as these are plausible scenarios, if they are then that would mean you argument over the IRFU suing the Regions was fabricated too Rolling Eyes

Nobody would agree to any changes if the £x remained the same or become less. That's bloody obvious and has been mentioned before.

The discussions in France won't negatively affect the likelihood of a change in the league that PRW play in.

You yourself agreed to the point on breach of contract, so that final sentence is really odd. Childlike and odd.

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