How Do Countries Form?

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How Do Countries Form? Empty How Do Countries Form?

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:17 am

Are all countries ultimately formed out of thin air?

Timelapse of Europe (dates given on top right of image)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l53bmKYXliA

Timelapse of the World:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewd4l2rD2_U

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Post by kingraf on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:23 am

Obvious answer is generally the two Geos as my history teacher would say
Geographically
Geopolitically
.
(the phrase "two Geos" works better in Afrikaans as Geo is an actual name
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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:42 am

Thanks.  Thinking about it I think "politics" has to precede "geography" because there has to be a political will first to create a controlled territory.

One can add another dimension to this: In Britain there used to be land called "common" land that was not "owned" by the state. This common land was then claimed by the state through enclosure acts.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:09 pm

This being what closed the rugby thread.....?

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:23 pm

Ha, we're not at that stage yet, Toppy!

Baby steps...

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Post by kingraf on Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:52 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Ha, we're not at that stage yet, Toppy!

Baby steps...

Bet you can see where this shall end though, can't you?
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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:53 pm

One application of knowing how countries form is to better able to determine what type of entity the "European Union" is and whether it is heading in the direction of Statehood.

I suppose in this area one has to have clear definitions as to what a country is what a state is etc.  I assume that Country & State are more or less different aspect of the same thing whereas a "nation" is more associated with a "people".  

I assume:
Country = sovereign contiguous territory governed by a state.
State = the system that governs and controls the territory. It comprises a number of intergenerational state institutions.
Nation = concept associated with a "people" of a perceived common heritage.

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Post by kingraf on Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:08 pm

Nore Staat wrote:Thanks.  Thinking about it I think "politics" has to precede "geography" because there has to be a political will first to create a controlled territory.

One can add another dimension to this: In Britain there used to be land called "common" land that was not "owned" by the state.  This common land was then claimed by the state through enclosure acts.  

Ja look, Gepolitics probably take precedence, but saying that, geography does also play a huge role. In terms of isolation, ability to see off insurgents etc
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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:37 pm

In the past there was people and geography but no countries. Examples being Native American tribes in the Americas and African tribes in Africa. Geography it seems to me is a type of convenience used in defending a territory. Before there was any country / countries / states in the British Isles - the British Isles was populated by small groups of people that settled on defendable hills with access to water and fertile land.

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Post by profitius on Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:31 pm

Nore Staat wrote:In the past there was people and geography but no countries.  Examples being Native American tribes in the Americas and African tribes in Africa.  Geography it seems to me is a type of convenience used in defending a territory.  Before there was any country / countries / states in the British Isles - the British Isles was populated by small groups of people that settled on defendable hills with access to water and fertile land.


I'll give Ireland as an example. For thousands of years Ireland has been a nation. Sure it was divided up into mini territories but there was a common law throughout the land called the Brehon law and the Brehons (like judges) were trained people who helped keep the peace.


It was the same throughout western and central Europe. The celts had a common culture and their territory stretched from north Italy to France to west Germany. Their land was divided by many kingdoms but there was common laws there and they had many wealthy towns which traded with each other.


Btw as an Irish person I don't use the term British isles since we're not British. OK
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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Separate to the initial question the "naming of things" can be contentious and the issues involved not understood by most.  According to online Etymology the first modern use of "British Isles" was 1620 (Wikipedia has it as 1577).

British derives from Briton:
Etymology: Anglo-French Bretun, from Latin Brittonem (nominative Britto, misspelled Brito in MSS) "a member of the tribe of the Britons," from *Britt-os, the Celtic name of the Celtic inhabitants of Britain and southern Scotland before the 5c. Anglo-Saxon invasion drove them into Wales, Cornwall, and a few other corners. In 4c. B.C.E. Greek they are recorded as Prittanoi, which is said to mean "tattooed people." Exclusively in historical use after Old English period; revived when James I was proclaimed King of Great Britain in 1604, and made official at the union of England and Scotland in 1707.

Irish:
Etymology: c.1200, "the Irish people," from Old English Iras "inhabitant of Ireland." This is from Old Norse irar, which comes ultimately from Old Irish Eriu (accusative Eirinn, Erinn) "Erin." The reconstructed ancestry of this derives it from Old Celtic *Iveriu (accusative *Iverionem, ablative *Iverione), perhaps (Watkins) from PIE *pi-wer- "fertile," literally "fat," from root *peie- "to be fat, swell" (see fat (adj.)).

From Wikipedia: The earliest known use of the phrase Brytish Iles in the English language is dated 1577 in a work by John Dee.  Today, this name is seen by some as carrying imperialist overtones although it is still commonly used. Other names used to describe the islands include the Anglo-Celtic Isles, Atlantic archipelago, British-Irish Isles, Britain and Ireland, UK and Ireland, and British Isles and Ireland.  Owing to political and national associations with the word British, the Government of Ireland does not use the term British Isles and in documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands".  Nonetheless, British Isles is still the most widely accepted term for the archipelago.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:25 pm

Countries are formed because of one thing - and one thing only; Evolution - survival of the fittest.

Tribal hills were created by the same evolutionary dynamic as Nations states were 'formed' before or after conflicts and World Wars.

There is always one basterde that thinks he's more powerful than another Chieftain and attempts to prove it by taking that Chieftain's cows, women, slaves or field.

So it's best to just think of the present if you're in the present.  For now, most of us know what we believe ourselves to be... and would probably go to war to protect what we regard as ours.  
Kings, Emperors, Tsars and Caesars can do what they like, and claim what they like with ancient parchment paper and seals of office, but we all continue to be what we think we are.  

So what we think we are is the only real truth.  Nobody will be talked out of what they believe themselves to be by someone approaching them with a barrowful of history books and a swab ready to take skin cells from the cheek to prove genetic brotherhood.  We're all brothers as humans - but that doesn't make us all want to live under the same roof.

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