Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June

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Post by Nematode on Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:20 pm

First topic message reminder :



SCOTLAND'S SUMMER TESTS

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 Japan10 Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 Scot_f10    
JAPAN SCOTLAND 
Sat 18 June 2016 
Venue: Toyota Stadium, Toyota City, Aichi
Coverage: Live on BBC
KO: 7.20pm local/11.20am GMT

Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

5 Played 5
0 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 0
55 Points 266 

B. Recent Form

23 September 2015
Scotland 45-10 Japan
Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester

09 Nov 2013
Scotland 42 - 17 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

13 Nov 2004
Scotland 100 - 8 Japan
McDiarmid Park, Perth

12 Oct 2003
Scotland 32 - 11 Japan
Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville

05 Oct 1991
Scotland 47 - 9 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

C. Teams

JAPAN 
[*]

SCOTLAND 
[*]

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 Nagoya_Grampus_game_in_Toyota_Stadium_100814

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 Japan10 Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 Scot_f10    
JAPAN SCOTLAND 
Sat 25 June 2016 
Venue: Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Coverage: Live on BBC
KO: 7.20pm local/11.20am GMT

Referee: Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

[5 Played 5
0 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 0
55 Points 266]

B. Recent Form 

18 June 2016
Japan * - * Scotland 
Toyota Stadium, Toyota

23 September 2015 
Scotland 45-10 Japan
Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester

09 Nov 2013
Scotland 42 - 17 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

13 Nov 2004
Scotland 100 - 8 Japan
McDiarmid Park, Perth

12 Oct 2003
Scotland 32 - 11 Japan
Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville

05 Oct 1991
Scotland 47 - 9 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

C. Teams

JAPAN 

[*]

SCOTLAND 

[*]

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJvWqd-_KlkpmlO7gzsFERjmfrSimzpGuZnD29bHbMWedvYivBxg

Scotland / Japan history:

2015: Scotland 45-10 Japan, Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester (RWC 2015)
2013: Scotland 42-17 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2010: Scotland XV 24-5 Japan Select, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)
2004: Scotland 100-8 Japan, McDiarmid Park, Perth
2003: Japan 11-32 Scotland, Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville (RWC 2003)
1991: Scotland 47-9 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (RWC 1991)
1989: Japan 28-24 Scotland XV, Prince Chichibu Memorial Stadium, Tokyo (uncapped match)
1986: Scotland XV 33-18 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)
1977: Japan 9-74 Scotland XV, Olympic Stadium, Tokyo (uncapped match)
1976: Scotland XV 34-9 Japan,  BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)

Scotland Squad:
Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 2 ST16_squad_1200_dh-700x990


Last edited by Nematode on Tue May 10, 2016 7:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by RDW on Tue May 03, 2016 8:31 pm

i really don't think we need to be resting players - I can't imagine any other top 10 nation will be resting players this summer. Also, it's not as if our Scotland players aren't looked after well (even the Edinburgh players have had plenty rest weekends of late, and will be finishing the season early). Hogg has practically had a month off and Jonny Gray has been looked after lately.

If we're going to take our top players on tour then I think they need to start and play most of both games - there's no point prolonging their season and delaying their return to pre-season just to have them play 20 minutes off the bench.

I also think it is ridiculous to be planning rest periods this summer based on their chances of a Lions tour - there is so much that can happen between now and then, never mind the big fluctuations in form that can happen (i.e. Bennett)!

I think we should be hell for leather this tour and get 2 decent wins over Japan.

I'd be very surprised if VC deliberately leaves players at home.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 03, 2016 8:41 pm

I would not rest them on the basis of the Lions tour, that is all far to speculative at this stage, but because of the WC some of them hardly got a break at all last summer.

I think we do need to rest some players, especially the 30 plus brigade, as it will be to their and Scotland's benefit in the longer term and may mean they play international rugby for a bit longer.

I think we also need to bring on some more players to increase our depth a bit more. You are right when you say other teams won't be resting players but they would or at least would be experimenting a bit more if they were playing Japan. With all due respect to Japan, we should be able to beat them even if we are a few first choice players down.

I am not taking them lightly, nor suggesting we send a B team, but players like Sutherland and McInally need to be given the starting jersey at some stage. I think they are up to it but we will only know for sure if they get given the chance. Otherwise we wait until the white heat of the 6N next year and have a shed load of injuries. The team and the squad need to keep on evolving!

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Post by RDW on Tue May 03, 2016 8:54 pm

I completely agree with you that we should be making changes to pick form players who really need their chance, and if Ford and Dickinson were 'rested' to enable that then I'd be happy.

Ford's form doesn't even warrant inclusion in the match day squad - McInally has replaced him at halftime the last few games and has made an immediate difference. Fraser Brown is also fit and raring to go too.

Sutherland is also battering down the door to be selected, but at least Dickinson's form is staying steady. Dickinson is the better scrummager but Sutherland offers much more in the loose. Sutherland's scrummaging is strong though.

The other one is Toolis over Swinson - VC is the only one who thinks that Swinson is an international lock that should be part of our long term future. He really isn't!

Other than that I don't think anyone else needs 'rested' - I'd give Nel and Low a start each over the two tests.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 03, 2016 9:03 pm

Pygros needs to start some test matches as well and there is no point taking Laidlaw to sit on the bench. Get another SH blooded in that role (Price my preference here)

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue May 03, 2016 9:07 pm

I'd take Laidlaw along, but probably use him sparingly, much like the ruck inspectors role towards the end of his glasgow career. Everyone in the squad talks about how much of a leader Laidlaw is, so bring him along to help blood the next gen.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 03, 2016 9:08 pm

Laidlaw is a difficult one because his form in the 6N and of late for Gloucester means that he's still first choice for Scotland probably, but I agree that we really need to be developing our backup options.

The other point of note is that Laidlaw hasn't got long left for Scotland - this may be his last tour with Scotland and he may not want to sit it out!

I'd say take Laidlaw and Pyrgos and give them a game each. Ali Price as a travelling reserve for the experience - Hidalgo-Clyne given a full pre-season to re-discover his form.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 03, 2016 9:15 pm

OK here's my squad for the two tests:

Test 1 - strongest team to ensure we get off to a winning start

1 Dickinson
2 McInally
3 Nel
4 Gray
5 Gray
6 Harley
7 Hardie
8 Denton (he's been getting more gametime with Bath recently)

9 Laidlaw
10 Russell
11 Visser
12 Dunbar
13 Taylor
14 Seymour
15 Hogg

Subs - Sutherland, Brown, Low, Toolis, Strauss, Pyrgos, Horne, Scott

Test 2 - a little bit of experimentation

1 Sutherland
2 Brown
3 Low
4 J Gray
5 Toolis
6 Strauss
7 Barclay
8 Denton

9 Pyrgos
10 Russell
11 Visser
12 Scott
13 Dunbar
14 Seymour
15 Hogg

Subs - Dickinson, McInally, Nel, Gray, Hardie, Laidlaw, Horne, Taylor

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 03, 2016 9:46 pm

I would go for a squad of

TH - Nel, Low with Fargerson on standby for an injury

H - McInally and Brown

LH - Reid and Sutherland

SR - Gray, Gray, Swinson and Toolis B

BR - Strauss, Hardie, Watson, Barclay, Denton (but Ashe would be close)

SH - Pyrgos, Hart and Price

FH - Russell and Horne

W - Jones, Visser, Seymour

C - Taylor, Dunbar, Scott and Bennett

FB - Hogg (Bryce if he goes to play 7s)

That's a squad of 27 and I may be tempted to throw in Brown for the experience and we probably need one more prop in the party, maybe that would be Dell. So 29 in total, which should be enough for two games. They may want a third hooker as well I suppose, which I guess would be McArthur.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue May 03, 2016 10:24 pm

I'd be keen to see Jackson come along, he's done well since his move and offers us an option at FB and FH.

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Post by BigGee on Sat May 07, 2016 5:01 am

Squad announced on Monday apparently

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon May 09, 2016 10:48 pm

BBC showing the Japan games

bbc wrote:BBC Scotland has secured the live television rights to show Scotland's two-Test series against Japan in June.

Vern Cotter's side will face the Asian champions on Saturday 18 at Toyota Stadium, Toyota City, and the following Saturday at Ajinomoto Stadium in Tokyo.

Both matches, at venues that will host games at the next Rugby World Cup, have a kick-off time of 11.20 BST.

Scotland defeated Japan 45-10 at last year's finals in England on their way to qualifying for the quarter-finals.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue May 10, 2016 12:21 am

Teams up. Swinson and Wilson still there. Other players left out, others included. I can't be ar*sed typing it out.

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Post by Majestic83 on Tue May 10, 2016 12:22 am

Scotland squad for summer tour is
props
Dickinson
Sutherland
Nel
Low

Hookers
Ford
McInally
Brown

Locks
Gray
Gray
Swinson

BR
Hardie
Barclay
Denton
Strauss
Wilson

SH
Laidlaw
Pyrgos

FH
Russell
Jackson

Centres
Horne
Dunbar
Taylor

Wings

Hoyland
Maitland
Seymour
Visser

FB
Hogg

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 12:23 am

Very similar to the 6N squad.

No Matt Scott.

Swinson again - why???

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue May 10, 2016 12:23 am

Cheers Majestic, better man than me.

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Post by Majestic83 on Tue May 10, 2016 12:25 am

Going with the full strength team for this tour. Slightly surprised they aren't resting a few like Laidlaw, Ford, Dickinson.

Disappointed that Ben Toolis is overlooked again, also that Wilson is again involved instead of the likes of Harley.
Slightly disappointed Tom Brown doesn't get a call up as well as certainly deserves it after the season he has had.

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Post by demosthenes on Tue May 10, 2016 12:32 am

No Bennett either; although with Dunbar hobbling off on Saturday there may need to be a rethink.

Also I see Maitland is back in favour.

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Post by Majestic83 on Tue May 10, 2016 12:36 am

Bennett hasn't been selected so he can concentrate on the GB 7s team for Rio.
With Hogg being selected for the summer tour he must have turned them down.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 12:37 am

Bennett is trying out for the GB 7s team

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Post by EST on Tue May 10, 2016 12:58 am

I'm very glad they have left the U20's alone - they deserve to have the full squad available for the WC.

Very much a core squad, however no Matt Scott is a surprise, as is no Toolis. We all know what Swinson can do, and we need to develop depth at second row.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 1:04 am

Any chat on the extent of Dunbar's injury?

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 1:07 am

Matt Scott may still go if Dunbar is crocked, would be a like for like replacement.

I am a bit surprised at no bolters other than Hoyland, who for all his attacking prowess, looks very shaky defensively as this was an opportunity to try a few new comers out. BVC is nothing if not a pragmatist though and wants the ranking points in the bag.

It looks like you have to earn your way into this Scotland squad, which I guess is no bad thing. Players like Toolis just have not done enough to get there, it is hard to stand out in a losing team I guess.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 1:10 am

BigGee wrote:It looks like you have to earn your way into this Scotland squad, which I guess is no bad thing. Players like Toolis just have not done enough to get there, it is hard to stand out in a losing team I guess.

Apart from Swinson and Wilson it would appear,

I also strongly disagree with your comment in bold - having watched Toolis most weeks for the last couple of seasons he is a standout in most games he plays. Great lineout jumper, strong carrier and puts in a mountain of work.

It really is unfathomable why he's continually overlooked for Swinson, who isn't even a first choice starter for Glasgow!

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 1:25 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
BigGee wrote:It looks like you have to earn your way into this Scotland squad, which I guess is no bad thing. Players like Toolis just have not done enough to get there, it is hard to stand out in a losing team I guess.

Apart from Swinson and Wilson it would appear,

I also strongly disagree with your comment in bold - having watched Toolis most weeks for the last couple of seasons he is a standout in most games he plays.  Great lineout jumper, strong carrier and puts in a mountain of work.

It really is unfathomable why he's continually overlooked for Swinson, who isn't even a first choice starter for Glasgow!

Swinson is an under rated player, especially with some Scottish posters on this forum. He has a massive work rate and rarely has a bad game and is also an experienced international and an integral part of the squad. He is also a player who knows how to win games and believes that he will.

Toolis is a player of some promise, but I would question whether he was a standout, I think he actually played better last season. If I was picking the squad I would have taken him, largely to give him some experience and exposure and potentially to build up our depth a bit, not necessarily as if he was our first choice. As he has essentially picked a first choice squad (which may or may not be the right thing to do), I can see why he has not been picked.

I think it is hard to stand out in a team that is not playing well and losing. The Edinburgh pack has not been destroying other teams at the end of the season the way it was at the beginning and middle. They have faded and wherever Toolis is in the spectrum of that, he may well have paid the price.

Rightly or wrongly, VC does not seem to want to cap players unless he really feels they deserve it.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 1:31 am

Swinson is under powered at international level and has had some discipline clangers for us in recent times. He works hard yes but that should be the bare minimum for an international lock.

He is also a player who knows how to win games and believes that he will.

I have no idea where the basis of that comment has come from!

Also, did VC not cap Ashe before he'd played for Glasgow?

I don't mean to be an arse about it, but the continual selection of Swinson just baffles me and is a glaring indictment of our strength in depth at lock.

He must be the smallest lock out of any of the top 10 nations. And before anyone trots out his official stats of being 18st 5, that is a load of Love sacks!

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Post by EST on Tue May 10, 2016 1:48 am

I don't dislike Swinson, he is very durable, plays well for Glasgow and very rarely lets anybody down (punch against Northampton aside). But he is several steps below the brothers Gray and Gilcho. Toolis may not be the finished article, but we desperately need to develop more depth at lock, and this tour would have been a very good opportunity to test him out. Put it this way, I don't think we would lose anything in picking Toolis over Swinson.

I actually saw Dunbar earlier today as he was walking down the street. His leg was in a brace and he was walking on crutches, doesn't look good for the Craggy Islanders return game, but the SRU doc's obviously think he will be ok come June time.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 1:55 am

Well like it or not, both Toonie and BVC seem to rate Swinson and the latter seems unconvinced by Toolis. VC even selected him having missed the WC warm ups, which says a lot.

Whatever you think about Swinson, no-one else, Toolis included, has put in a really convincing case to be selected.

Down the line, there are a lot more second row options coming along the tracks as well as Toolis. Cummings looks a prospect, Bressler will qualify in the not to distant future and Gilchrist may manage to string a few games together at some stage.

VC may feel that he has no need to add to the depth for the sake of it as the quality will present itself in the not to distant future in any case.

I would suggest that there are other players more unlucky than Toolis to have missed out. If the squad and the team is a bit harder to get into now, that can only be looked at as a good thing and hopefully the wannabees will be told what it is they have to do.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 2:02 am

BigGee wrote:
I would suggest that there are other players more unlucky than Toolis to have missed out

Like?

I would have picked Harley, but there's plenty strength in the back row so no real complaints there. Ditto Hamish Watson.

Hidalgo-Clyne has lost all his form and confidence

Matt Scott is unlucky but he's been out injured for a while and has a club move to organise this summer. There's also similar strength in the centre.

Duncan Weir is Duncan Weir

Tom Brown falls into the Roddy Grant camp

Toolis, as someone who has been ever present for Edinburgh all season and a regular standout player, is by far and away the most unlucky in that squad IMO!

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue May 10, 2016 2:14 am

I'd agree that Toolis is unlucky to miss out.

He's been part of a pack who have been dominant for most of the season, yeah it may have fallen away a bit recently (although in my opinion that only happens once Andress comes on), but for the last couple of seasons he's shown he's a very good player.  Not really sure what more he could have done, other than play for a winning team, but really that's not his fault, as he's generally done everything asked of him and more.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 2:18 am

Well I would have said Matt Scott, who has genuinely stood out since he has come back.

Watson is also genuinely unlucky, as you could easily say we need to develop another out and out open side who can link with the backs and Hardie is running on fumes

If we are looking at bolters, who would be worth taking for the experience, then surely Ali Price is next in the SH queue, where we also need more depth and I would have had no issues about Tom Brown going either.

I kind of feel that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one though.

If they had taken a bigger squad, then Toolis would have gone and no doubt he will be the next in line if there is an injury. As things stand though, I don't believe he has made a compelling case, which given the improvement in the Scotland team, is now what is required.

I was in favour of taking a slightly weakened squad, as you can see from my previous posts. BVC has his own take on it however and has put out the message very strongly, 'earn your place'.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 2:20 am

So are you glad they picked Swinson over Toolis?

Is anyone?

I just can't fathom how you don't think he's made a compelling case, especially when you compare his contributions this season to Swinsons'. As Spoons said - he couldn't really have done any more other than not play for Edinburgh.

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Post by EST on Tue May 10, 2016 2:25 am

BigGee wrote:Well like it or not, both Toonie and BVC seem to rate Swinson and the latter seems unconvinced by Toolis. VC even selected him having missed the WC warm ups, which says a lot.

Whatever you think about Swinson, no-one else, Toolis included, has put in a really convincing case to be selected.

Down the line, there are a lot more second row options coming along the tracks as well as Toolis. Cummings looks a prospect, Bressler will qualify in the not to distant future and Gilchrist may manage to string a few games together at some stage.

VC may feel that he has no need to add to the depth for the sake of it as the quality will present itself in the not to distant future in any case.

I would suggest that there are other players more unlucky than Toolis to have missed out. If the squad and the team is a bit harder to get into now, that can only be looked at as a good thing and hopefully the wannabees will be told what it is they have to do.

I can't deny that Cotter seems to like Swinson, although Scotland selectors, including VC, have been known to have the odd blindspot in the past (Strockosh in particular comes to mind). As I said, I don't think there is much between Toolis and Swinson presently. Does Toolis have the potential to be a better player with some experience? In my opinion, almost certainly. With Gray *2 certainties to start, I would have liked to have seen Toolis given a shot to see if he can replicate his club form.




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Post by IanBru on Tue May 10, 2016 2:26 am

I am. Swinson is a better player right now than Toolis is.

Toolis has bags of potential, and may turn out to be a better player than Swinson in the long run, but as we know from Naiyaravoro, potential is just hot air when you take the field. Swinson has been a reliable option (Franklin's Gardens f***-ups notwithstanding) for Glasgow for three seasons. In a winning team.
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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 2:35 am

Dependable is why we picked Andy Henderson for so long. Dependable is why Al Strokosh was picked for the world cup.

Dependable isn't going to push us forward as a rugby nation.

And can we really class a player with 47 professional appearances, someone who he been a regular starter in a dominant pack for 18 months as just having 'potential'?

If all of the Edinburgh locks were fit and Swinson was at Edinburgh I'd have him as 4th or 5th choice. But I guess most weegies would rather play Sean Lamont in the 2nd row than Toolis!

He's very dependable...

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 2:35 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:So are you glad they picked Swinson over Toolis?

Is anyone?

I just can't fathom how you don't think he's made a compelling case, especially when you compare his contributions this season to Swinsons'. As Spoons said - he couldn't really have done any more other than not play for Edinburgh.


Well like it or not, especially for you Edinburgh fans, I think the Edinburgh factor does come into play. No-one looks as good in a team that loses more often than they win, especially in big important games.

Winning breads leadership and confidence and the mentality to play international rugby. We often see players looking and playing much better when they move away from struggling teams. Truth is we just don't know how good or otherwise Toolis is, whether he can genuinely step up or not, whereas Swinson has played a lot of international rugby now and while not being in anyones world XV, he has held his own.

I don't think Swinson will be playing for Scotland at the next WC, I hope better players will have come along and taken over by then. Toolis may be one of them if he really makes his case, but there will be a lot of competition by then.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue May 10, 2016 2:45 am

BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:So are you glad they picked Swinson over Toolis?

Is anyone?

I just can't fathom how you don't think he's made a compelling case, especially when you compare his contributions this season to Swinsons'. As Spoons said - he couldn't really have done any more other than not play for Edinburgh.


Well like it or not, especially for you Edinburgh fans, I think the Edinburgh factor does come into play. No-one looks as good in a team that loses more often than they win, especially in big important games.

Winning breads leadership and confidence and the mentality to play international rugby. We often see players looking and playing much better when they move away from struggling teams. Truth is we just don't know how good or otherwise Toolis is, whether he can genuinely step up or not, whereas Swinson has played a lot of international rugby now and while not being in anyones world XV, he has held his own.

I don't think Swinson will be playing for Scotland at the next WC, I hope better players will have come along and taken over by then. Toolis may be one of them if he really makes his case, but there will be a lot of competition by then.

But I wouldn't say that applies to our pack, yes the rest of the team are largely redundant onlookers due to Solly's views on attacking rugby, but the pack is a match for most teams we have played this year, and that very much includes Toolis, which is also why you see Dicko, Ford & Nel being called up.

I get Swinson is part of a winning team and is likely (when he plays) to be packing down beside his club captain, so will know Johnny's game well and Johnny should know his, but I just can't see how he is regarded a better option.

With all that said, does anyone know if there was anything stopping VC taking a moderately larger squad, say 28 players Very Happy

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 2:56 am

As it is just a short sharp tour, they are only arriving 5 days before the first test and presumably leaving immediately after the second, I guess they just felt it was not worth taking players who were not going to get used.

I suppose it is not cheap to fly players to the other side of the world for a bit of tackle bag holding and sight seeing. As it is short and sharp, it might explain as well why he has chosen not to rest anyone.

We might be in trouble if we have any injuries though, especialy in the front row. A few players (maybe Toolis amongst them) will surely be on standby.

With the travel and the jet lag and so little time to prepare, you can bet your life that the Japs will have a real crack at us in that first game.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 3:05 am

It must suck being on standby for the tour - you can't go and let yourself go on the beach for 3-4 weeks and there's a good chance you won't even be involved for all your sacrifice!

If a 2nd row was injured in the first game I suspect they'd use Denton as reserve lock instead of flying another one out at Short notice.

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Post by EST on Tue May 10, 2016 3:25 am

Toolis aside, I actually like the squad Cotter has chosen.

He has only taken the core players, and I see some merit in trying to create more of a club mentality with a core group. There is the issue of player rest, I have my own views on the number of games the top players are being asked to play, and the general lack of rest in pro rugby, but thats a problem that is facing world rugby. Considering the ranking points, BVC had to take his best team.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 3:54 am

I suppose the positive thing is that some of the players we probably feel are more in need of a rest: Laidlaw, Nel, Dickinson, Ford, Hardie to name the most obvious suspects, are going to have a month off now before the tour. They could probably get a holiday in now for a couple of weeks if they wanted.

Their challenge is going to be staying fit enough to be of use when they hit the ground in Japan.

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Post by jimbopip on Tue May 10, 2016 3:55 am

Guys I hate to derail a good bunfight (and the "Toolis is better than Matfield, Aye but Guns Swinson could demolish John Eales before breakfast" is just utterly enthralling) but

Majestic83 wrote:Scotland squad for summer tour is
props
Dickinson
Sutherland
Nel
Low

Hookers
Ford
McInally
Brown

Locks
Gray
Gray
Swinson

BR
Hardie
Barclay
Denton
Strauss
Wilson

SH
Laidlaw
Pyrgos

FH
Russell
Jackson

Centres
Horne
Dunbar
Taylor

Wings

Hoyland
Maitland
Seymour
Visser

FB
Hogg

I've scored out the players who are not really nailed on starters for their club side. (OK Maitland starts most weeks for the NotNots but they got relegated FFS.) I think the point I'm trying to make is that if we look at :Nel, Dickinson, Ford, Gray, Gray and Hardie then they are your 1,2,3,4,5 &7 . The best/first choices in those positions. My own, rather heretical, belief is that 1-15 should all be your first choices in their position.

Dozer and Rhubarb are a long way from that. Wasps were quite happy to let Rhubarn leave. Bluto and Batman have to wait to see which number the Tombola gives them, IF it gives them one. And while I think Barclay was one of the best 7s of recent times he's probably the fourth best 8 on that list.

It looks like VC will put out our "first XV" to start the first test; but if it's a close run thing, or we lose, then the Dead Horse Front Row Society will be getting flogged to the starting line for the second test.
I see this squad as a missed opportunity; too many players knackered after a long season, and too many with far too few club appearances to justify inclusion.

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Post by RDW on Tue May 10, 2016 3:58 am

Worth noting that Denton has now started several games in a row for bath - mainly at 8 but 6 occasionally too.

His move to bath certainly hasn't been the best experience so far though.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 4:05 am

Not sure I agree with that Jimbo.

In any fair world (but not the world of Solly), Sutherland and McInally would be getting plenty of starts for their clubs. Same with Jacko with Wasps, who has looked more than useful on the rare occasions Dai Young has given him a chance.

Under the Toonie Tombola, Swinson gets his fair share and even Dents has been getting regular gametime with Bath of late. He was injured in that middle part of the season around the 6N.

I think Jacko will thrive at Quins, where he may even end up being first choice 10 and Denton will have a much better second season at Bath

Weir has had his chances and to my mind Jacko is our second best option at FH and Dents has earned his place over many years and in particular during the WC.

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Post by jimbopip on Tue May 10, 2016 4:27 am

I know what you're saying Gee but,
Rhubarb is exactly where he was when he left Glasgow; a very, very talented player who has failed to convince a coach to give him a run af games. He's 28 or 29 now and waiting for him to emerge from his chrysalis is getting to be like Waiting For Godot.
Dents may have started a few games recently but my impression is that he is not considered the first choice 8 at Baarf.
Swinson gets a fair share of starts but I think that's more about player rotation than being seen as first choice; it'll be interesting to see how many starts he gets next season. Especially if Toonie recruits another lock.

I may not have expressed myself clearly enough, so here goes ...

I want a Scotland side where the number 10 is the best 10 we have and is owning that jersey. Like Hardie does at 7 or Nel and Dickinson do at 1&3. I don't want to see 7 or 8 players in the squad who can't even get into their club side as an automatic first choice in their position.

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Post by George Carlin on Tue May 10, 2016 4:45 am

Welcome Senlac. If you're a regular viewer of these boards, you will know that the glories of Ayrshire as a region are generally not appreciated by many other posters here. Just keep reminding yourself - they just don't know...
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Post by Prothero on Tue May 10, 2016 5:01 am

Glad Hoyland is going, He has nailed himself a starting position for Edinburgh and has a decent try return. We need to cultivate the talent available to us as best we can especially out wide, where pickings are slim outside the seymore, visser, maitland, Hogg group.

Wonder if Bennett could be converted to wing? he has the pace and his major talent imo is finishing?

Was the under 20 squad announced today? I was under the impression it would be.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 5:16 am

Prothero wrote:Glad Hoyland is going, He has nailed himself a starting position for Edinburgh and has a decent try return.  We need to cultivate the talent available to us as best we can especially out wide, where pickings are slim outside the seymore, visser, maitland, Hogg group.

Wonder if Bennett could be converted to wing? he has the pace and his major talent imo is finishing?

Was the under 20 squad announced today? I was under the impression it would be.

Hoyland will no doubt score us a few tries, the worry is that he may let on a few more than that!

If he learns to tackle he could become a very good player.

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Post by Prothero on Tue May 10, 2016 5:24 am

BigGee wrote:
Prothero wrote:Glad Hoyland is going, He has nailed himself a starting position for Edinburgh and has a decent try return.  We need to cultivate the talent available to us as best we can especially out wide, where pickings are slim outside the seymore, visser, maitland, Hogg group.

Wonder if Bennett could be converted to wing? he has the pace and his major talent imo is finishing?

Was the under 20 squad announced today? I was under the impression it would be.

Hoyland will no doubt score us a few tries, the worry is that he may let on a few more than that!

If he learns to tackle he could become a very good player.


He has time to do that, defence can be coached, the ability to spot a gap, beat a man and the gas to lose him cant. Definatly the best broken field runner we have produced since Hoggy.

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Post by 123456789 on Tue May 10, 2016 7:10 am

The most baffling thing about the lock situation is that two-three years ago it was arguably our best stocked position, certainly in terms of numbers if not always ability. We had Gray, Gray, Hamilton, Gilchrist, Kellock, Swinson and Toolis and to an extent Ryder and McKenzie all in and around selection because of players going out of favour and losing form, retiring or taking up injury as a profession we are down to two international quality second rows (both of which came out of the same woman). That said the short term nature of Scottish rugby always confuses me, I remember the crisis at inside centre when Graeme Morrison was injured in 2011 and there was a debate between Sean Lamont and Nick De Luca for the 12 shirt, yet now we have Taylor, Dunbar, Scott, Horne and Bennett competing for two positions, or how we went from having the Killer Bs, Strockosh, Jason White, Rennie, Simon Taylor, Ally Hogg and Richie Vernon all having legitimate cases to start in the 2009-2010 back row to trying to find any number 8 to play in the 2011 world cup.

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Post by BigGee on Tue May 10, 2016 8:45 am

123456789 wrote:The most baffling thing about the lock situation is that two-three years ago it was arguably our best stocked position, certainly in terms of numbers if not always ability. We had Gray, Gray, Hamilton, Gilchrist, Kellock, Swinson and Toolis and to an extent Ryder and McKenzie all in and around selection because of players going out of favour and losing form, retiring or taking up injury as a profession we are down to two international quality second rows (both of which came out of the same woman). That said the short term nature of Scottish rugby always confuses me, I remember the crisis at inside centre when Graeme Morrison was injured in 2011 and there was a debate between Sean Lamont and Nick De Luca for the 12 shirt, yet now we have Taylor, Dunbar, Scott, Horne and Bennett competing for two positions, or how we went from having the Killer Bs, Strockosh, Jason White, Rennie, Simon Taylor, Ally Hogg and Richie Vernon all having legitimate cases to start in the 2009-2010 back row to trying to find any number 8 to play in the 2011 world cup.

Our depth of player base, whilst a lot healthier than it used to be, is still pretty thin compared to the big boys of world rugby and we are going to struggle from time to time.

Having said that, I don't think we are struggling with Swinson. He is a very solid player who will fill in just fine until a better player comes along and there are a few decent ones on the horizon. It may all look very different next year.

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