The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:35 am

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cool, cheers. Don't think Saracens are this season can you provide the link please? Thanks in advance.

You don't think that Saracens are spending to the cap this season? Is that what you've actually just written?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:18 am

Sin é wrote:I'm trying to figure out why anyone wants to have their sporting club owned by one wealthy individual rather than an organisation that has a membership who votes them in and out.

I guess its a cultural thing in Ireland about sport being something that the community own.

That must be why Premiership soccer is so despised in Ireland.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:21 am

marty2086 wrote:
Yeah insult the audience to mask your ignorance, its not like he made sense with his argument. Which is more that could be said for you who just spits out his dummy and spews insults

He didn't make sense with his argument. He claimed that it would be a difficult proposition to sell of the provinces to private backers.

I bet you PWC could write the sales document in under a week. For free, because of their sponsorship of Irish rugby.

Oh, and it's good to see that Heaslip has left his association with Jo'Burger.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:22 am

marty2086 wrote:

He wasn't a big name


Anybody who didn't see Schmidt as a big name must have been pretty ignorant of rugby outside of their village.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:23 am

marty2086 wrote:
I never said they wanted them


So, in your mind, they 'begged' for something they didn't want.

I see.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Sin é on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 10:40 am

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:I'm trying to figure out why anyone wants to have their sporting club owned by one wealthy individual rather than an organisation that has a membership who votes them in and out.

I guess its a cultural thing in Ireland about sport being something that the community own.

That must be why Premiership soccer is so despised in Ireland.

Premiership clubs are outside Ireland. If you take someone like JP McManus who donates a lot of money to sport in Ireland for no return, Manchester United was just a business deal to him (where he made a fair bit of money) and was fairly ruthless about selling it off when Fergie crossed the line.

I believe there was 20K at Waterford v Clare (hurling) yesterday in neutral venue.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 10:43 am

Sin é wrote:
Premiership clubs are outside Ireland. If you take someone like JP McManus who donates a lot of money to sport in Ireland for no return, Manchester United was just a business deal to him (where he made a fair bit of money) and was fairly ruthless about selling it off when Fergie crossed the line.

I believe there was 20K at Waterford v Clare (hurling) yesterday in neutral venue.

So it's ok for others to do it?

I don't understand the animosity towards PRL, in that case.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Sin é on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 10:45 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

He wasn't a big name


Anybody who didn't see Schmidt as a big name must have been pretty ignorant of rugby outside of their village.

He wasn't a big name back then. The only thing he had won was the Top 14 as Backs Coach and Ranfury Shield back in NZ.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Sin é on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 10:47 am

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Premiership clubs are outside Ireland. If you take someone like JP McManus who donates a lot of money to sport in Ireland for no return, Manchester United was just a business deal to him (where he made a fair bit of money) and was fairly ruthless about selling it off when Fergie crossed the line.

I believe there was 20K at Waterford v Clare (hurling) yesterday in neutral venue.

So it's ok for others to do it?

I don't understand the animosity towards PRL, in that case.

Premiership destroyed soccer in Ireland. To become a professional soccer player, most have to pack their bags at 14 and move to England. We don't want the same thing to happen in rugby.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:43 am

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:I'm trying to figure out why anyone wants to have their sporting club owned by one wealthy individual rather than an organisation that has a membership who votes them in and out.

I guess its a cultural thing in Ireland about sport being something that the community own.

That must be why Premiership soccer is so despised in Ireland.

Don't be shooting yourself in the foot there, Phil. The Premiership?

Have you heard of the League of Ireland? Do you watch it on Sky? Do you know all the teams? Do you know any of the players? Do you know who owns them? Do you know all about their grounds, attendances etc?


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm

Sin é wrote:

He wasn't a big name back then. The only thing he had won was the Top 14 as Backs Coach and Ranfury Shield back in NZ.

We've been through this before. Schmidt was very well known by anybody with a passing interest in rugby outside of their border.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
Premiership destroyed soccer in Ireland. To become a professional soccer player, most have to pack their bags at 14 and move to England. We don't want the same thing to happen in rugby.


The best way to prevent it happening is to change the system. That's obvious.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:I'm trying to figure out why anyone wants to have their sporting club owned by one wealthy individual rather than an organisation that has a membership who votes them in and out.

I guess its a cultural thing in Ireland about sport being something that the community own.

That must be why Premiership soccer is so despised in Ireland.

Don't be shooting yourself in the foot there, Phil.  The Premiership?  

Have you heard of the League of Ireland?  Do you watch it on Sky?  Do you know all the teams?  Do you know any of the players?  Do you know who owns them?  Do you know all about their grounds, attendances etc?


I bet you wish that you'd read the post above yours before you'd written that nonsense.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:57 pm

Oh?

..tell me why.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:Oh?

..tell me why.


Eh? I guess that you missed the sarcasm in my point about Premiership soccer.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:01 pm

Cumulative PrO'12 crowds:

560,278 in Ireland
359,026 in Wales

http://www.worldclubrugby.com/analysis/pro12_attendances_by_season_by_country.php?countryID=1

c.6.4m people on the island of Ireland. c.2m in South Wales.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:03 pm

^ It seems that the PrO'12 is more appealing in Wales than it is in Ireland, not only for TV money but for attendances ^


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:10 pm

Must be why the Regions are so successful Smile

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:Must be why the Regions are so successful Smile

7 v 5 when all of that extra money was spent.....

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:20 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Oh?

..tell me why.


Eh? I guess that you missed the sarcasm in my point about Premiership soccer.

Oh I'm very naïve in these things.  Do go ahead and point out the sarcasm for me in your Premiership soccer point.... because you've obviously missed the sarcasm in mine.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:^ It seems that the PrO'12 is more appealing in Wales than it is in Ireland, not only for TV money but for attendances ^


It tells me that Welsh fans don't like travelling Wink If the train isn't going past their house at the right time in the night...they don't want to go.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Oh I'm very naïve in these things.  Do go ahead and point out the sarcasm for me in your Premiership soccer point.... because you've obviously missed the sarcasm in mine.

It's a good job Sin e grabbed the sarcasm and answered the point in a coherent, sober fashion. You should take lessons.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:34 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Oh I'm very naïve in these things.  Do go ahead and point out the sarcasm for me in your Premiership soccer point.... because you've obviously missed the sarcasm in mine.

It's a good job Sin e grabbed the sarcasm and answered the point in a coherent, sober fashion. You should take lessons.

Nope, that won't do. Sin E operates above my level. I'm still too dumb to work it out. Point out the sarcasm in your initial point about Premiership football.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Oh I'm very naïve in these things.  Do go ahead and point out the sarcasm for me in your Premiership soccer point.... because you've obviously missed the sarcasm in mine.

It's a good job Sin e grabbed the sarcasm and answered the point in a coherent, sober fashion. You should take lessons.

Nope, that won't do.  Sin E operates above my level.  I'm still too dumb to work it out.  Point out the sarcasm in your initial point about Premiership football.

Sorry, I'm all out of 'pointing out the obvious' today.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Sin é on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:44 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:

He wasn't a big name back then. The only thing he had won was the Top 14 as Backs Coach and Ranfury Shield back in NZ.

We've been through this before. Schmidt was very well known by anybody with a passing interest in rugby outside of their border.

Seriously, that Clermont team underperformed when he was there. So did the Blues back in NZ.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:49 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Rather than reverting to the old bickering, is there actually any sustainable way that we can move the league forward?
If we take as a starting point that there is absolutely no appetite among the PRL/RFU to allow Welsh clubs into any form of the Jeff/Championship then where do we go ?
There may be in the future some sort of B & I league but that's a really long way off and unlikely to happen untll the professional divisions in England are sorted out.
So where do we look - we can't expand much more, maybe two clubs to make a Pro14, but where from, Ireland and Italy are stable as they are, Scotland might like another region (Borders) but probably hasn't got the money/resource to run it, and would Wales want another side ?
So do we look outside and maybe offer places to composite sides from Georgia, Romania, etc. ?
It is always going to be a "flawed" league in the sense that it's not a national one and is an artificial construct but it's what we have so must make the best of it.

A B&I league won't happen until the Scots and Irish sell off their teams. That's the problem, not the 'professional divisions in England'.

I think that we have to realise that this drivel is the best its ever going to be. The only 'improvement' could be the conferences that just see more derbies.

Why do the Scots and Irish have to sell their teams and who to exactly ?

I'd have thought the biggest obstacle to a B & I League is that the English don't want it, they have have a nice earner going with BT Sport, the England national team appear to be on the rise, and they are doing well in the European competitions, what possible reasons would they have for bringing any of the Celts in ? I can't think of any benefit for PRL/RFU/Aviva in this.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:56 pm

Sin é wrote:
Seriously, that Clermont team underperformed when he was there. So did the Blues back in NZ.

A daft claim. They won the Brennus in the year he left.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:58 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Why do the Scots and Irish have to sell their teams and who to exactly ?

I'd have thought the biggest obstacle to a B & I League is that the English don't want it, they have have a nice earner going with BT Sport, the England national team appear to be on the rise, and they are doing well in the European competitions, what possible reasons would they have for bringing any of the Celts in ? I can't think of any benefit for PRL/RFU/Aviva in this.

Why? To ensure fair and transparent competition. There is a reason soccer prevents multiple team ownership in the same tournaments.

To whom? To whoever will pay the price.

The obvious reason is that the French are pulling further ahead on the back of their TV deals. BT Sport are up for spending more cash (so more for all) on this project, so that possible reasons are obvious: to keep up with the French and to get even more income.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:32 pm

But soccer is a completely different financial model to rugby, the unions fund the teams but have no control over how they spend the money in terms of the professional set up or are you suggesting that the union puts pressure on one of it's teams to advantage the others ?

What does that mean, are there huge numbers of people waiting to buy up the teams and any desire for them to become millionaires playthings ?

If BT Sport are up for wasting spending even more cash on rugby as a loss leader then it might happen, but again I don't see what advantage the English clubs get from it, unless the new money is heavily skewed towards them in which case why would the Rabo teams join in ? If there's more income around the PRL will want it to go to their teams and to start increasing the salary cap even further. And why do they want to keep up with the French when they are already ahead of them in most areas except money - three out of four teams in the EC semis ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
Why do the Scots and Irish have to sell their teams and who to exactly ?

I'd have thought the biggest obstacle to a B & I League is that the English don't want it, they have have a nice earner going with BT Sport, the England national team appear to be on the rise, and they are doing well in the European competitions, what possible reasons would they have for bringing any of the Celts in ? I can't think of any benefit for PRL/RFU/Aviva in this.

Why? To ensure fair and transparent competition. There is a reason soccer prevents multiple team ownership in the same tournaments.

To whom? To whoever will pay the price.

The obvious reason is that the French are pulling further ahead on the back of their TV deals. BT Sport are up for spending more cash (so more for all () on this project, so that possible reasons are obvious: to keep up with the French and to get even more income.

The English are pulling ahead too.  Why should they care any more about Welsh rugby regression than the French do?  

The French don't mind being ahead of the posse, I'm sure they enjoy it.  The English will lose their capping restraints in the future to compete better with the French and they'll feel the same.  

Why should they care about the Welsh, Scots, Irish or Italians?  It would be even better business sense for their system to bury their smaller neighbouring competitors so that they'd then have other supply chains of players coming into their league to strengthen it more...and they'd also then hope for more fans.... you know, like the Irish Premiership football fans?

Again, this notion of 'Us' against the French???  Where do you get that? Why do you keep going back to it?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:35 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cool, cheers. Don't think Saracens are this season can you provide the link please? Thanks in advance.

You don't think that Saracens are spending to the cap this season? Is that what you've actually just written?

Yup, that's what I've written. I don't think they are this season, but you said you'd provide the link, so thanks in advance.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Sin é on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Seriously, that Clermont team underperformed when he was there. So did the Blues back in NZ.

A daft claim. They won the Brennus in the year he left.

They should have won 3 with their squad and 2 H Cups.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:47 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:But soccer is a completely different financial model to rugby, the unions fund the teams but have no control over how they spend the money in terms of the professional set up or are you suggesting that the union puts pressure on one of it's teams to advantage the others ?

What does that mean, are there huge numbers of people waiting to buy up the teams and any desire for them to become millionaires playthings ?

If BT Sport are up for wasting spending even more cash on rugby as a loss leader then it might happen, but again I don't see what advantage the English clubs get from it, unless the new money is heavily skewed towards them in which case why would the Rabo teams join in ? If there's more income around the PRL will want it to go to their teams and to start increasing the salary cap even further. And why do they want to keep up with the French when they are already ahead of them in most areas except money - three out of four teams in the EC semis ?

It's not that different a financial model. The soccer point shows that it harms competition to have multiple entrants with one owner. How? Because that owner clearly affects the strength of the teams entering the competition.

I've no idea of who would wish to own a pro Irish or Scottish rugby team as none is up for sale. Put them up for sale and we'll know the answer.

How do you know rugby is a loss leader for BT Sport?

The final question is odd and undermines the previous question. It is money that drives professional teams. Losing an advantage on that makes you uncompetitive as any Irish rugby follower will testify. If you want to keep up with the French, you must be able to financially keep up with them. How can PRL do that without growing their market?

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/15327719/saracens-owner-nigel-wray-backs-welsh-premiership-claims

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yup, that's what I've written. I don't think they are this season, but you said you'd provide the link, so thanks in advance.

Something tells me that you're not being genuine.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
They should have won 3 with their squad and 2 H Cups.

An even more daft comment based on the strength of the T14. In what years were ASM the top spenders? Therein lies the answer to disprove your comment.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:52 pm

PhilBB wrote: How can PRL do that without growing their market?


By killing off Pro'12?

Pro12 is a potential market there for the taking. But that doesn't mean PRL have to adopt the 'Celts'. The better plan is that the 'Celts' would end up having to adopt them (the AP).

Why are you blind to that?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:54 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yup, that's what I've written. I don't think they are this season, but you said you'd provide the link, so thanks in advance.

Something tells me that you're not being genuine.

No I really am. I was very vocal about the 'cap breach' which never was and I think they listened to that came up with a dodgy deal and are now under. But please, let's not get distracted from the original point. You said you'd provide a link to their exact total player salary. Thanks in advance.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:55 pm

SecretFly wrote:

By killing off Pro'12?

Pro12 is a potential market there for the taking.  But that doesn't mean PRL have to adopt the 'Celts'.  The better plan is that the 'Celts' would end up having to adopt them (the AP).

Why are you blind to that?

Because that's a bloody ridiculous idea. Stop being more Jack than Eric. It ruins any sensible discussion.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You said you'd provide a link to their exact total player salary.

I wrote the exact opposite to that.

Feel free to provide the link otherwise, though.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:59 pm

In terms of selling the Irish/Scots teams, suppose (as an example) Rory Mcilroy wins The Open this year and with the millions Nike and other sponsors shower him, he buys Ulster and turns them into the Toulouse of the Rabo - are the Welsh going to be happy with this, I am right that there is no salary cap as such in the Rabo ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:01 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:In terms of selling the Irish/Scots teams, suppose (as an example) Rory Mcilroy wins The Open this year and with the millions Nike and other sponsors shower him, he buys Ulster and turns them into the Toulouse of the Rabo - are the Welsh going to be happy with this, I am right that there is no salary cap as such in the Rabo ?

Yes
and
Yes.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:03 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

By killing off Pro'12?

Pro12 is a potential market there for the taking.  But that doesn't mean PRL have to adopt the 'Celts'.  The better plan is that the 'Celts' would end up having to adopt them (the AP).

Why are you blind to that?

Because that's a bloody ridiculous idea. Stop being more Jack than Eric. It ruins any sensible discussion.

Just answer the question and admit the logical truth - it's as clear as daylight. The PRL(AP) don't need to add/absorb the Pro12 into its makeup to steal the Pro12 market share and add it to their own. You don't want to contemplate the truth of that but the logic is clear.

....back to 'sarcasm' as an example - and the Premiership v League of Ireland.

If you can't keep your own arguments corralled in logic then nobody else is going to do the work for you.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Just answer the question and admit the logical truth - it's as clear as daylight.  The PRL(AP) don't need to add/absorb the Pro12 into its makeup to steal the Pro12 market share and add it to their own.  You don't want to contemplate the truth of that but the logic is clear.

....back to 'sarcasm' as an example - and the Premiership v League of Ireland.

If you can't keep your own arguments corralled in logic then nobody else is going to do the work for you.

True, they don't need it all. Just the Welsh teams. We got there, finally.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Just answer the question and admit the logical truth - it's as clear as daylight.  The PRL(AP) don't need to add/absorb the Pro12 into its makeup to steal the Pro12 market share and add it to their own.  You don't want to contemplate the truth of that but the logic is clear.

....back to 'sarcasm' as an example - and the Premiership v League of Ireland.

If you can't keep your own arguments corralled in logic then nobody else is going to do the work for you.

True, they don't need it all. Just the Welsh teams. We got there, finally.

'Finally' indeed.

How many times do I have to redirect you back to the Anglo-Welsh League before we finally do get to a final Phil opinion finally on Pro12?

The PRL need the Welsh teams?

I'll let the English here have fun with that one

...but yeah, I'll agree with you that they'll take their players and coaches with a smile and thanks...

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:It's not that different a financial model. The soccer point shows that it harms competition to have multiple entrants with one owner. How? Because that owner clearly affects the strength of the teams entering the competition.

How, Connacht are traditionally the poor relations of the Provincial set-up, do you think the other Irish clubs were under IRFU orders to let them have a go at winning this time ?

I've no idea of who would wish to own a pro Irish or Scottish rugby team as none is up for sale. Put them up for sale and we'll know the answer.

Why should they - what has it go to do with anything ?  

How do you know rugby is a loss leader for BT Sport?

Because the viewing figures are less than Sky had but they are paying more, because they have only a few advertisers during the breaks apart from BT in house adverts and because it was about getting a product from Sky to launch the channel.

The final question is odd and undermines the previous question. It is money that drives professional teams. Losing an advantage on that makes you uncompetitive as any Irish rugby follower will testify. If you want to keep up with the French, you must be able to financially keep up with them. How can PRL do that without growing their market?

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/15327719/saracens-owner-nigel-wray-backs-welsh-premiership-claims

Notwithstanding that Nigel Wray is as popular with the rest of the Premiership as a fart in a spacesuit, he'd have to get this through the other clubs in the PRL, a raft of legal challenges from the excluded Championship clubs, work out where the Welsh would drop into the league - drop Newcastle, Worcester, Bristol and Gloucester to fit, the Welsh in ?, promotion and relegation issues, European qualification rules, and the huge row with the WRU and the RFU, the RFU subsidise the Avivia clubs under the current arrangements for player release, development and so on, you expect them to subsidise the Welsh as well or the WRU to pay clubs to play outside Wales ?


Last edited by Irish Londoner on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:
'Finally' indeed.

How many times do I have to redirect you back to the Anglo-Welsh League before we finally do get to a final Phil opinion finally on Pro12?

The PRL need the Welsh teams?

I'll let the English here have fun with that one

...but yeah, I'll agree with you that they'll take their players and coaches with a smile and thanks...

Yes, seagulls and trawlers.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:30 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It's not that different a financial model. The soccer point shows that it harms competition to have multiple entrants with one owner. How? Because that owner clearly affects the strength of the teams entering the competition.

How, Connacht are traditionally the poor relations of the Provincial set-up, do you think the other Irish clubs were under IRFU orders to let them have a go at winning this time ?

I've no idea of who would wish to own a pro Irish or Scottish rugby team as none is up for sale. Put them up for sale and we'll know the answer.

Why should they - what has it go to do with anything ?  

How do you know rugby is a loss leader for BT Sport?

Because the viewing figures are less than Sky had but they are paying more, because they have only a few advertisers during the breaks apart from BT in house adverts and because it was about getting a product from Sky to launch the channel.

The final question is odd and undermines the previous question. It is money that drives professional teams. Losing an advantage on that makes you uncompetitive as any Irish rugby follower will testify. If you want to keep up with the French, you must be able to financially keep up with them. How can PRL do that without growing their market?

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/15327719/saracens-owner-nigel-wray-backs-welsh-premiership-claims

Notwithstanding the Nigel Wray is as popular with the rest of the Premiership as a fart in a spacesuit, he'd have to get this through the other clubs in the PRL, a raft of legal challenges from the excluded Championship clubs, work out where the Welsh would drop into the league - drop Newcastle, Worcester, Bristol and Gloucester to fit, the Welsh in ?, promotion and relegation issues, European qualification rules, and the huge row with the WRU and the RFU, the RFU subsidise the Avivia clubs under the current arrangements for player release, development and so on, you expect them to subsidise the Welsh as well or the WRU to pay clubs to play outside Wales ?

Keep up.

Connacht are now equally funded by the IRFU.
Why should they? To keep up with the English and French and to ensure a transparent competition.

https://www.btplc.com/BTToday/NewsList/BTSporthelpsrugbyviewingfiguressoar/index.htm ??

You're aware of the last HoT on this AW League, right?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:31 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
'Finally' indeed.

How many times do I have to redirect you back to the Anglo-Welsh League before we finally do get to a final Phil opinion finally on Pro12?

The PRL need the Welsh teams?

I'll let the English here have fun with that one

...but yeah, I'll agree with you that they'll take their players and coaches with a smile and thanks...

Yes, seagulls and trawlers.

The welsh hate seagulls and trawlers yes ...reminds them of not travelling to see their teams across the big bad Irish sea.

But enough about sarcasm for a page or two. Back to the point - back to why 'Us' should be against them (the damn French).

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:35 pm

PhilBB wrote:

Keep up.

Connacht are now equally funded by the IRFU.

Maybe the Regions could write a nice letter to the IRFU and request equal funding too? After all, the IRFU have loadsa money and the instant that they 'equal fund', that team goes to the top.

Pretty bad business plan for serious rugby though - amateurish.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:No we haven't. Can you provide Saracens? I don't think you'll be able to. Saying English clubs can spend up to x pounds isn't telling us they do.

Which clubs do you think don't? Let's start there and then we can find the links to disprove you.

Cool, cheers. Don't think Saracens are this season can you provide the link please? Thanks in advance.

Sounded as if you were prepared to provide that link Phil. So you got it to show what Saracens wage bill is?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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