Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

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Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 11:38 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens  v   Wasps
23/04/2016 15:00 Madejski Stadium Sky Sports / beIN Sports

Officials
Referee - Roman Poite
Touch Judge 1 - Jerome Garces (France)
Touch Judge 2 - Pascal Gauzere (France)
TMO - Eric Gauzins (France)
Citing Commissioner - Stefano Marrama (Italy)


Form

9/4/16 Saracens 29 - 20 Saints 8,050
23/1/16 Toulouse 17 - 28 Saracens 12,498
16/1/16 Saracens 33 - 17 Ulster 9,642


9/4/16 Wasps 25 - 24 Chiefs 23,866
23/1/16 Wasps 51 - 10 Leinster 16,519
17/1/16 Toulon 15 - 11 Wasps 13,344


Teams

Saracens
15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Duncan Taylor, 12. Brad Barritt, 11. Chris Wyles; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Richard Wigglesworth; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Schalk Brits, 3. Petrus du Plessis, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Michael Rhodes, 7. Will Fraser, 8. Billy Vunipola
16. Jared Saunders , 17. Richard Barrington, 18. Titi Lamositele, 19. Jim Hamilton, 20. Jackson Wray, 21. Neil de Kock, 22. Charlie Hodgson, 23. Marcelo Bosch

Wasps
15. Charles Piutau; 14. Christian Wade, 13. Elliot Daly, 12. Siale Piutau, 11. Frank Halai; 10. Jimmy Gopperth, 9. Dan Robson; 1. Matt Mullan, 2. Carlo Festuccia, 3. Lorenzo Cittadini, 4. Joe Launchbury, 5. Bradley Davies, 6. James Haskell, 7. George Smith, 8. Nathan Hughes
16. Ashley Johnson, 17. Simon McIntyre, 18. Phil Swainston, 19. Sam Jones, 20. Thomas Young, 21. Joe Simpson, 22. Ruaridh Jackson, 23. Rob Miller


Preview
The top two in the AP table meet at the Madj for the first all English semi-final since 2007, when Wasps beat Northampton. Since those heady days Wasps have made little impact on the top tier competition, while their opponents have been on the rise. This will be Sarries 4th semi-final in a row, and 5th in total (first in 2008). Sarries will be all too aware that they have lost all but one of those semi-finals so far and will be desperate to make their second final. To do so they know they have to play much better than they did in the 1/4 final, though it is fair to say that Wasps were not at their best in the 1/4s despite the thrilling come-back.
The last time these two teams met was during the 6Ns when Wasps visited Barnet and thrashed the reigning AP champs. While both teams were missing players, Sarries were worse affected and everything Wasps touched turned to gold that day. We should expect a much tighter game this weekend. Sarries will look to squeeze Wasps up front, then put massive pressure on their opponents back line. Wasps will need to execute their game plan with precision, fail to do so and Saracens will swamp them.





Leicester Tigers  v   Racing 92
24/04/2016 15:15  City Ground BT Sport / FR 2 / beIN Sports

Officials
Referee - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch - Judge 1 George Clancy (Ireland)
Touch - Judge 2 Leighton Hodges (Wales)
TMO - Simon McDowell (Ireland)
Citing Commissioner - Jeff Mark (Wales)


Form

10/4/16 Tigers 41 - 13 SF Paris 20,866
24/1/16 SF Paris 36 - 21 Tigers 12,073
16/1/16 Tigers 47 - 7 Treviso 19,076


10/4/16 Racing 92 19 - 16 Toulon 15,340
23/1/16 Glasgow 22 - 5 Racing 92 9,063
17/1/16 Racing 92 64 - 14 Scarlets 6,931


Teams

Leicester Tigers
15. Matthew Tait; 14. Telusa Veainu, 13. Peter Betham, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Vereniki Goneva; 10. Freddie Burns, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Marcos Ayerza, 2. Harry Thacker, 3. Dan Cole, 4. Dom Barrow, 5. Graham Kitchener, 6. Michael Fitzgerald, 7. Lachlan McCaffrey, 8. Opéti Fonua
16. Greg Bateman, 17. Logovii Mulipola, 18. Fraser Balmain, 19. Ed Slater, 20. Tom Croft, 21. Sam Harrison, 22. Owen Williams, 23. Adam Thompstone

Racing 92
15. Brice Dulin; 14. Joe Rokocoko, 13. Johannes Goosen, 12. Alexandre Dumoulin, 11. Juan Imhoff; 10. Dan Carter, 9. Maxime Machenaud; 1. Eddy Ben Arous, 2. Virgile Lacombe, 3. Ben Tameifuna, 4. Luke Charteris, 5. Francois van der Merwe, 6. Wenceslas Lauret, 7. Bernard Le Roux, 8. Chris Masoe
16. Camille Chat, 17. Khatchik Vartanov, 18. Luc Ducalcon, 19. Manuel Carizza, 20. Antonie Claassen, 21. Mike Phillips, 22. Remi Tales, 23. Louis Dupichot

Preview
It is over 90 years since Leicester last met Racing. Fair to say things have changed just a little since the 1920's, and it is extremely doubtful that either side will warm up with a visit to a strip club as Tigers did on their first visit to France. Jacky Lorenzetti has spent big money assembling the star-studded Racing team, with Dan Carter surely the jewel in the crown. Even on one leg his class was enough to guide the Parisians to a narrow win over three-time champs Toulon. However they are far from a one man team with stardust sprinkled throughout the side. Racing's T14 form has stuttered in recent weeks and a largely second string team went down to Toulouse last week. With the big names coming in though, they are - on paper at least - far stronger than their English rivals. It is hard to see weaknesses in the Racing pack with an excellent second row pairing sandwiched by very powerful back and front rows. Tigers will be hoping that they can exploit a possible lack of speed in the back row, but cannot assume that their opponents will tire - or be as poor as their city rivals Stade were. It is to be hoped that Castro can keep his cool in any post match interviews this time.
Leicester have been like the little girl, when they are good they are very, very good but when they are not they are awful. This will be a huge test physically. The front five cannot give an inch while the back row have to win the battle of the breakdown. Secure a decent amount of possession and they have the backs to score tries from anywhere. However they need to be clinical both in attack and defence. Racing will exploit any dropped passes or defensive dog-legs.
This is Leicester's first semi-final since the unforgetable game in Cardiff in 2009, and Racing's first ever semi.


Last edited by LondonTiger on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 12:07 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by kingelderfield on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:20 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I thought Robson was much better than Simpson, with the later's service ponderous and loopy. I thought Simpson extracted all speed from the Wasps game and flushed it down the toilet, as good as lost them any chance of winning the game.

Robson hopefully is not badly injured.

I thought Youngs extracted all speed from the Leicester game and flushed it down the toilet, as good as lost them any chance of winning the game.

No worries

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Welly on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:22 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought Robson was much better than Simpson, with the later's service ponderous and loopy. I thought Simpson extracted all speed from the Wasps game and flushed it down the toilet, as good as lost them any chance of winning the game.

Robson hopefully is not badly injured.

I thought Youngs extracted all speed from the Leicester game and flushed it down the toilet, as good as lost them any chance of winning the game.

No worries

What has that got to do with a crap Simpson?

Simpson is sooo overrated.

Robson ------> Simpson

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by kingelderfield on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:27 pm

Simpson is crap is he....interesting observation not.

He was in the form of his life before the injury, obviously not that you noticed, and as I am happy to predict (remember this is a just a little forum on the interweb so calm yourself) will finish the season strongly......unlike the poor form of Youngs.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Welly on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:55 pm

He still wasn't that good pre injury, as I said IMO he was so overrated

Again what has Youngs got to do with it?

We all know he has been crap.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 9:58 pm

I guess the argument is I am attacking Simpson to defend Youngs, which is far more informative of his minset frankly.

Right now Robson is comfortably the most in-form 9 available to England, with probably the best basic skills. I want him in the team against Australia.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:14 pm

To suggest Youngs took the pace out of the Leicester game is doing a massive disservice to the Racing pack.

Robson needs a cap. He's talented and has a good all round game. This summer is a good time to blood him, especially if he's still in this form.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 9:22 am

Agree that Robson is the form 9 at the moment.

Not sure Simpson can be overrated, think only kingelderfield rates him highly. Care and Youngs both have better basics than Simpson and do the running part just as well if not better IMO.

Simpson's basics are the worst of the lot in my opinion.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 10:13 am

The benefit Simpson adds is the speed of the game he gives you. Probably best coming from the bench, but this is an area where Youngs and Care already look very good. Simpson was the form 9 by a country mile before his injury, which ironically then gave Robson the chance to be the most impressive 9 since. I wouldn't be surprised to see Simpson pick up where he left off.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by yappysnap on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 10:29 am

Simpson was outstandingly good pre injury,, he'd improved a heck of a lot and his passing and kicking were all good enough.

Wasps wouldn't have managed the wins they got if he wasn't playing well, let's not kid ourselves.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by sad_gimp on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 10:46 am

*moved*

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 10:53 am

Simpson's kicking is actually pretty good. It's his passing and game management that are well off the mark, extremely poor for an AP scrum half to be blunt. He makes up for a lot his deficiencies by being electric in attack, he's such a good runner.

Not a great scrum half but a real potent attacking threat.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

Just seen that in the disciplinary announcements issued yesterday I missed the fact that Itoje was given a retrospective YC

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 1:47 pm

I hope Mcintyre gets a ban for a red card offence.

Holding onto someone's foot is not the same as kicking someone in the head.

They are not equal.

I would have said Itoje's offence = penalty, Mcintyre's = YC but if holding onto someone's foot is deemed a YC offence than a RC should have given to Mcintyre.

Of course I doubt he will.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 1:52 pm

Um, that is why McIntyre has been cited - because the Citing Officer deemed it a red card worthy offence.


I agree with the CO - Itoje should have been binned, McIntyre sent off, even though it was probably the lightest contact you will ever see from boot to head. I will investigate further, but pretty sure Sarries players have more retrospective YCs than any other group this season.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 2:23 pm

Well I am just saying I hope he gets banned.

Binned from holding onto someone's foot. Laugh

You can take out of the opposition FB and nearly injure him in the process and get not even a talking to but hold on to a players' foot and people think it's a YC offence. Ridiculous. Wasn't even preventing Wasps from a meaningful attack in the opposition half.


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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 2:25 pm

One's a foul the other isn't for a start.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 2:41 pm

Taking out players late = legal, thanks no 7 & 1/2, glad we got that sorted out.

Good to know that there's consistency....not...

We'll soon find out if the citing commissioner thinks holding someone's leg = a kick in the head.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 3:39 pm

It depends beshocked, you are allowed to go and charge down a kicker, commit yourself to the ball in an attempt to block. You are not allowed to target a player and take him out.

You are not allowed to hold someone off the ball in open play.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:07 pm

No 7 & 1/2 there are correct ways to do things.

Rhodes showed what a successful chargedown looks like. If you commit to charging down a kicker you still are not within your rights to take out the kicker himself.

You are not allowed to kick someone in the head either.

Ultimately it comes down to what you think should be legal and what is legal. Holding on IMO - penalty generally. Taking out the opposition kicker IMO - penalty. Kicking someone in the head - YC or RC. High tackle - depends but at least a penalty.

Failed intercept - penalty or YC, Wyles was lucky not to be YCed.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:14 pm

beshocked wrote: hold on to a players' foot and people think it's a YC offence. Ridiculous. Wasn't even preventing Wasps from a meaningful attack in the opposition half.


It was a deliberate and cynical offence from Itoje. What is ridiculous is committing the offence if it had such a small impact. Except it was not ridiculous because it was done seeking a reaction. Similar happened with Jamie Gibson playing for Tigers last year, he was holding back Blair Cowan just to get such a reaction and fully deserved the slap he got. I am sick of players doing this type of thing, and do not care whether they are on my team or against my team.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by GunsGerms on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:16 pm

I see Owen Farrell has been cited. Not surprised to be honest. He is a hot head and wouldn't be surprised if he copped a red some day soon.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:23 pm

Londontiger you think it's a YC offence? I don't it was, I think neck rolls and taking out opposition players are more dangerous but only penalties.

If it prevented quick release for Wasps in an attacking position or when Wasps had momentum or indeed Sarries were on a team warning I think a YC might be warranted but in this specific situation - no.

Crooked lineouts and feeds are cynical offences, YCs for those players too? Where do you draw the line?

A player doesn't need to react.I remember last year in the semis, Hartley squaring up to George and got done for headbutting, George didn't react to the wumming and Hartley got punished albeit after the game.

Mcintyre shouldn't have reacted. Doesn't make what Itoje did was right but lashing out is giving the reaction they are looking for.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:37 pm

I think all cynical play should be carded - I do not care if it is dangerous it is deliberate and pre-meditated cheating. It is the biggest blight on the modern game, imo. Gibson should have been binned for what he did, so should Itoje. Frankly Itoje's actions were pathetic, just as pathetic as Hartley tends to be when he tries to wind players up, but McIntyre should have kept his temper. Not sure how you eradicate the pathetic cynical play though, as no-one notices unless the player reacts. Ceretainly would not want to start seeing the diving so prevalent in our national sport.

I guess we are not going to agree however.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:44 pm

Londontiger the issue is that there needs to be a line and of course consistency. It's all well and good saying cynical play should be carded but surely that's a lot of that going on, far too much to be policed effectively and consistently.

You've also got refs who interpret things differently. Cheating is part of the game, ignoring some but highlighting others is inconsistent.

Is there a rugby team who doesn't feed at the scrum and doesn't throw crooked lineouts?

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 4:49 pm

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2 there are correct ways to do things.

Rhodes showed what a successful chargedown looks like. If you commit to charging down a kicker you still are not within your rights to take out the kicker himself.

You are not allowed to kick someone in the head either.

Ultimately it comes down to what you think should be legal and what is legal. Holding on IMO - penalty generally. Taking out the opposition kicker IMO - penalty. Kicking someone in the head - YC or RC. High tackle - depends but at least a penalty.

Failed intercept - penalty or YC, Wyles was lucky not to be YCed.

Fair enough but under current rules McIntyre is allowed to attempt to charge down as he did.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 5:40 pm

Well as we know some rules are flawed.

You can attempt to tackle/charge down someone but you have to execute it properly. Taking out an opposition player in a clumsy manner is not doing it properly. Just as shoulder charging an opposition or a high tackle is not either. A neck roll is not proper protocol either.

It's why Farrell got YCed, he did not execute the tackle properly.

Poor technique is still poor technique.

If you put yourself in a position where you can be penalised then there's the potential to be. Some people get away with it, some don't.


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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 5:47 pm

Yes and no. People do get away with fouls etc but the McIntyre charge down is allowed currently.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:12 am

beshocked wrote:Well as we know some rules are flawed.

You can attempt to tackle/charge down someone but you have to execute it properly. Taking out an opposition player in a clumsy manner is not doing it properly. Just as shoulder charging an opposition or a high tackle is not either. A neck roll is not proper protocol either.

It's why Farrell got YCed, he did not execute the tackle properly.

Poor technique is still poor technique.

If you put yourself in a position where you can be penalised then there's the potential to be. Some people get away with it, some don't.


Wait what? Macintyres leap for a charge down and making clearly accidental contact with Goode? is the same as a shoulder charge, or high tackle?

Firstly theres no such thing as an accidental shoulder charge, it's either a shoulder charge or accidental contact, the same with taking the player out, theres accidental contact or taking the player out.

Accidental high tackles come from poor technique and aiming too high in the first place, Farrells was not an accidental hit that slipped up, he is borderline short arming the player going down, and although he probably knows he's going to hit high due to ball carrier direction he doesn't pull out whatsoever, and after the high hit holds the neck before hitting the ground, realising he's still holding his neck then releases.

If you put yourself in a position to be penalised (every position on the park) then you are literally attempting anything, charge downs, tackles, ball carying, throwing the ball, catching the ball...

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by quinsforever on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 1:06 am

itoje a retrospective yc. that hilarous. then mccaw and SoB should get them every game for standing beyond the ball at a ruck and interfering with incoming players. it is absolutely the same. not dangerous. but clearly infringing. you cant play players when you are beyond the ball in a ruck situation.

i would welcome consistency, but itoje deserving a yc? are you all f-ing kidding me?

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:19 am

quinsforever wrote:itoje a retrospective yc. that hilarous. then mccaw and SoB should get them every game for standing beyond the ball at a ruck and interfering with incoming players. it is absolutely the same. not dangerous. but clearly infringing. you cant play players when you are beyond the ball in a ruck situation.

i would welcome consistency, but itoje deserving a yc? are you all f-ing kidding me?

I think the frustration is not with Itoje as an individual, bt with the trend at the breakdown of cheat whenever possible until someone reacts and you get a penalty for it.

Saracens are the current kings of non rugby, what Itoje did was lay the wrong side of the ruck intentionally holding a players foot so he couldn't go do his job, it's a penalty 100% of the time, yet it's penalised 1% of the time.

As far as kicks go it was as meaningless as a slap to the back, stupidity is kicking a head, I personally welcome the Itoje wellow card as it sends a message to coaches that negative tactics can and will be dealt with post match, even though refs struggle to see them, a citing commissioner can.

IToje is very much paying the price for Saracens tactics though, and this is a warning shot to Saracens

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by munkian on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:23 am

Agreed.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:35 am

It's a warning shot to everyone. Everyone gets away with it. If the Itoje yellow is now the standard for those caught brilliant. I have a feeling that the only ones caught will be when someone reacts still.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a warning shot to everyone. Everyone gets away with it. If the Itoje yellow is now the standard for those caught brilliant. I have a feeling that the only ones caught will be when someone reacts still.

If everytime then someone reacts and kicks the holder to the head happy days, it's almost like rucking is returning and both players take a yellow for it.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:42 am

Hopefully it puts a halt on the holding. Players will now be actually risking something (if reffed properly) and players won't be getting frustrated. Neither of the kicks were fulled blooded which is the only thing stopping them getting very long bans. You simply can't react though, even if it's a tap.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hopefully it puts a halt on the holding. Players will now be actually risking something (if reffed properly) and players won't be getting frustrated. Neither of the kicks were fulled blooded which is the only thing stopping them getting very long bans. You simply can't react though, even if it's a tap.

Thats a worrying mindset though, the human brain in a competitive environment trains you to win and never accept when someones cheating, all players will have a strong moral compass...

Therefore if they don't react the only course of option is to highlight the event to the ref, which will lead to players diving and flailing in order to get the refs attention.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:52 am

Yup, the refs will need to be really sharp on that area of the game for a while, dish out some punishment and hopefully it reduces. Places can't kick or strike no matter; just fortunate that the kicks were powder puff but still absolutely not wanted in the game.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:04 am

Fanster it's reckless. Something can be accidental and lead to a YC or RC. I don't approve of the stupid things that Saracens or England players do. Ashton and Farrell in my opinion are idiots. I criticised Brown in the 6 nations too because of his recklessness.

It's not something I want to see even if it is accidental.

Well if it's reckless and dangerous then yes. Mcintyre's contact is dangerous and almost injures Goode, fortunately he was fine but he might not have been. Seem to want to encourage recklessness. Player safety should surely be paramount. I would rather that the refs focussed on cutting recklessness first.

It's still taking the player out regardless of whether it's accidental or not. Not everything has to be intentional, if there is poor technique and lack of regard for the opposition....

I've watched the Farrell incident again, Farrell lines Robson up for a tackle but Robson dips/slips which leads to Farrell not hitting him cleanly. He's not got time to shift. I think a YC was fair because it was reckless but no I don't think Farrell meant to injure Robson.

I don't think Mcintyre meant to injure Goode either but he almost did and it was reckless. Accidental or not doesn't matter, need to show more restraint.

You talk about the current kings of non rugby, haven't seen you getting on your soap box about the Wasps player taking out Taylor for Wasps' first try. That's a professional foul too... of course only counts if it's one team right?

You talk about non rugby but approve of recklessness..... as long as it's not Saracens being reckless I guess...

You approve of kicking people in the head, just tells us a bit about your personality.

I am not claiming that Saracens are blameless, they do things they shouldn't be but you have to realise they aren't the only side who try and get an edge on the opposition.


Itoje wasn't really doing anything different to holding on illegally, pulling down a maul illegally, you don't seriously believe that players don't do these intentionally? Every single time a rugby player feeds the ball they are intentionally cheating, crooked lineouts etc. I don't think what Itoje did is any worse than numerous other offences. It's a penalty no more. Especially in that situation.

Rugby players do what they can to win, rightly or wrongly.

Quinsforever well said, I would welcome consistency too but basically no chance of that happening.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:46 am

Beshoked

Firslty, Sarries and England players arent the issue, I get Farrell is a bit of a boobie, but he's one of thousands worldwide. I don't want this to be an everyone hates England argument as some would like it to be.

Macintyre doesn't almost injure goode, he attempts to chargedown a ball, of which Goode delays the kick until he has to kick (clearance kicking 101, take as much time as you are allowed). meaning Macintyre is in the air when the kick has gone, once again pro kicking coaching says post kick do not move, do not avoid the oncoming player. Nothing is to be gained by kicking and stepping out, however something is to be gained by kicking and opening up your stance (contact is regularly reviewed and penalised). Contact was minimal, and it's amazing how many kickers go down like theyve been shot after contact post kick. It creates a boo from the crowd, and refs love to relook at it, yet 100% of the time the kicker gets up and plays on fine.

My point is, the culture of ref conning has arrived, it's subtle right now, but it's very much there. Sexton had the entire media convinced of him being targetted this 6N before a single ball was kicked, then he spent half the time on the ground appealing to refs, if your going to play that flat and that risky in front of the onrushing defence your going to get hit more often, he knew that and he knew he could milk penalties and cards from hits that were always going to be risky.

The Taylor example proves my point, he's rushed out of the line, surrounded by attacking players moving in the opposite direction to him, gets himself into a badd position, and when a pass beats him knows he's in trouble, minimal contact by the hooker and he throws himself down flailing his arms in the air. Thats non rugby in my view.

An example of non rugby is making the decision to hold someone, when Itoje holds Macintyres boot who shakes twice to have him let go where is Macintyre wanting to go and what is he wanting to do? He is wanting to go and defend and PLAY RUGY, whereas what is Itoje trying to do? STOP MACINTYRE FROM PLAYING RUGBY.

Your problem is your one eyed view, I have no ties to Sarries or Wasps, Taylor throwing himself down while beaten in defence is pathetic, Goode having to be 'treated' after an accidental collision isn't great either, Itoje doing what a lot of Sarries players are being coached to do, which is non rugby in my view.

The kick in the head comment was slightly tongue in cheek, but it was very much a love tap, and a warning after 3 attempts to move clear of the area. Deserved yellow for stupidity, but as dangerous as it was, I've been licked by my dog more dangerously.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:48 am

ps, just stop with the personal attacks, just because you don't like my opionion which falls in line with the good decisions the ref made on the day, and the citing commisioner rechecked and made.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:18 am

Fanster

It's not everyone hates England. I am just pointing out I have no sympathy for Farrell despite him being a Sarries and England player.

Mcintyre does almost injure Goode, Goode goes down hard after Mcintyre crashes into his leg but fortunately he was fine. The contact was not minimal. I can't find the video of the incident but the contact was not minimal. Goode is not a player who pretends to dive. I watched the incident and was disappointed that there wasn't at least a penalty.

Culture of conning the ref hasn't just arrived... if you truly believe that then you're very naive indeed.

So what is rugby then in your opinion? Taking out opposition players seems to be something you approve of.

You talk about making decisions, when someone illegally takes down a maul they are making a decision, when someone feeds in the scrum, holding on etc. It seems to me as if some cheating is more important.

Two wrongs do not make a right, my problem with you is you seem to think one bit of foul play is fine whilst ignoring others.

I think it's non rugby to take out the opposition either with an accidental collision or taking out the defender which was done for Wasps first try.

What Itoje did was wrong but kicking someone in the head is not the solution contrary to your warped point of view. The ref should be more aware.

I am not being one eyed - hence why I've said Farrell Jr deserved the YC for reckless stupidity.

Goode wasn't play acting. When a reckless 20 stone man runs into your leg it's going to hurt. I don't remember seeing Taylor throwing himself down. He was taken out yet I haven't seen you criticise the Wasps player.

Oh now a kick in the head is downgraded to a love tap?


Good decisions? Poite had a poor day at the office and now one of his only good decisions has been tarnished by a retrospective YC for Itoje which is ridiculous.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by munkian on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:22 am

He didn't 'kick' him though did he ? We've seen what happens to people kicked in the head - Murray in this Six Nations and Liam Williams in the RCW against England.


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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:29 am

munkian two wrongs don't make a right.

Personally I thought Mcintyre's kick warranted a YC but Itoje should not be getting a retrospective YC.

If Itoje's action supposedly warrants a YC then Mcintyre should be getting a RC.

Kick to the head even just a light one is still not the same as holding on.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:41 am

In general if they're just saying in future holding is a yellow, it's a good thing. Still won't notice the majority of them though.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:29 am

beshocked wrote:munkian two wrongs don't make a right.

Personally I thought Mcintyre's kick warranted a YC but Itoje should not be getting a retrospective YC.

If Itoje's action supposedly warrants a YC then Mcintyre should be getting a RC.

Kick to the head even just a light one is still not the same as holding on.

They are 100% not the same thing. But you have to consider context of the kick, and contextualise the problem with negative tactics in the game at the minute.

IMO this is the rare occasion everything considered the decisions were spot on, Macintyre deservedly yellowed, and cost his team on the day, Itoje bearing the brunt of a lot of negative tactics during this years club rugby, especially by saracens. Itojes yellow is indirectly pointed at the coaching set up.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by quinsforever on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:31 am

again they are digging themselves into a hole. if holding onto a defensive player in a ruck when attacking team are in possession is a yellow, then every single deliberate infringement by defending team in the same scenario must also be a yellow. offside = yellow. collapsing maul = yellow and prob penalty try, collapsing scrum = yellow, taking out lineout jumper = yellow, side entry at ruck = yellow.

utter ridiculousness.

you cant give itoje a retrospective yellow BECAUSE HE GOT KICKED IN THE HEAD! because thats what they have done here. if mcintyre hadnt kicked itoje in the head, and the tmo had seen itoje holding mcintyre's foot, there is no way on earth it would have been a retrospective yellow...do you see the irony? itoje got a yellow for getting kicked in the head laughing laughing laughing

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by munkian on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:34 am

He was on the floor - not in the ruck - he shouldn't be playing any part in the game at that point.


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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:36 am

He's got the yellow for holding. It was noticed because he got kicked in the shoulder. Subtle difference but overall not every holding on offence is going to end in a yellow as refs won't see them all and won't enforce it consistantly.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by Fanster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:42 am

quinsforever wrote:again they are digging themselves into a hole. if holding onto a defensive player in a ruck when attacking team are in possession is a yellow, then every single deliberate infringement by defending team in the same scenario must also be a yellow. offside = yellow. collapsing maul = yellow and prob penalty try, collapsing scrum = yellow, taking out lineout jumper = yellow, side entry at ruck = yellow.

utter ridiculousness.

you cant give itoje a retrospective yellow BECAUSE HE GOT KICKED IN THE HEAD! because thats what they have done here. if mcintyre hadnt kicked itoje in the head, and the tmo had seen itoje holding mcintyre's foot, there is no way on earth it would have been a retrospective yellow...do you see the irony? itoje got a yellow for getting kicked in the head laughing laughing laughing

First point, offsides aren't blighting the game right now.

Second point, that is EXACTLY what just happened, stop whining!

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by beshocked on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:22 pm

quinsforever well said.

Munkian you set a precedent though. Now any holding on to someone's foot has to be enforced as a straight YC or there won't be consistency. You look to clean up the game in one way but let other things go unpunished....

I think the solution has to focus more on spotting potential infringements rather than throwing the book at people in a scatter gun approach.

No 7 & 1/2 that's the point though, no consistency. It's a clear penalty in my opinion but not a YC because of the context.

There's a few things - refs need to do, first spot a potential infringement, 2nd work out if it's an infringement and 3rdly enforce it properly with the appropriate punishment if required. Now that's not easy to do.

A blight on the game is that too much skullduggery is missed and no it's not just one team doing this.

Fanster yes you have to use context. Itoje was holding on in a Saracens attack near the Wasps line, Mcintyre wasn't even in a position to rejoin the Wasps defence, it's not as if Itoje aided Saracens in gaining a try. It turned into a YC for Mcintyre because he reacted.

If there was consistency then there wouldn't be an argument.

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

Post by SecretFly on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:33 pm

We've all seen the moments in life, or similar.  Smartass drunk wandering around outside a nightclub or hotel entrance - whatever - larging it, as it were.  Mouthing off, being a total schidthead.  He thinks it funny to step in the way of a decent guy just trying to enter the building.  The guy tries to get round him but the asswhole is still playing his 'funny' game.  Innocent guy loses patience and throws the idiot out of his way.

Who do the observing crowd give their yellow card to? Wink

Come on now gentlemen!  Own up.  You've all encountered those kinds of situations.  You rush over to the drunk idiot to help him as you shout obscenities at the 'big bully' that just floored him? Whistle

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Re: Champions Cup Semi-Finals - 23/24 April

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