European rugby, the interest just isn't there

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

On behalf of the Irish, we told you so

Lord, why don't you explore the reasons?

Yet again I ask, how has the new competition created this situation? After all the changes to the competition did not make the Irish teams less competitive - that was other factors. The changes to the competition did not mean that no Welsh side has made the semi finals since 2009 - that pre-dates this competition.


Yes the crowds were disappointing, but in line with previous attendances for semi finals in England. So which change to the competition created this please.

LondonTiger wrote:Yes the crowds were disappointing, but in line with previous attendances for semi finals in England. So which change to the competition created this please.

Lack of interest for the casual fan. The old HC used to be built up as mini internationals, now it is just a much of a muchness, to many teams from the same countries playing each other is a big factor for me.

LordDowlais wrote:I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

Hardly surprising when the venues for both semi-finals were football stadium with capacities well in excess of 30 000

More to do with no Irish teams making the semis surely. And that was going to happen anyway as tehy go through a bit of transition.

Probably has to do with charging £60 a ticket for the Madejski. I was going to go with 2-3 work colleagues til I saw that price on the Saracens site.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yes the crowds were disappointing, but in line with previous attendances for semi finals in England. So which change to the competition created this please.

Lack of interest for the casual fan. The old HC used to be built up as mini internationals, now it is just a much of a muchness, to many teams from the same countries playing each other is a big factor for me.

Yet the pool games have seen increases in attendances - and that is where the tournament changes happened.

There are very few casual fans willing to pay big bucks in England - thus most English based semi finals have been lowish of attendance unless pumped by Irish travelling fans.

The make up of the teams in the semi final were not due to changes in the tournament structure.


If Leinster had drawn Munster we would have seen bigger crowds.

If Blues had a home semi we would have seen bigger crowds.


That none of those 3 teams made the semis was because they were not good enough (admittedly in Cardiff's case not good enough to even make the semi final)



Slate English fans for not being willing to pay the money, slate the organisers for having tigers play at the same time as Leicester City, but slating the changes to the tournament is just silly.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yes the crowds were disappointing, but in line with previous attendances for semi finals in England. So which change to the competition created this please.

Lack of interest for the casual fan. The old HC used to be built up as mini internationals, now it is just a much of a muchness, to many teams from the same countries playing each other is a big factor for me.

Whose fault is that?

From what I have read here then the time scales involved in scheduling may have had an impact on attendances in the knock out phases. Otherwise it is probably a bit too early to get really worked up about it.

The same main teams qualified from the Pro12 as usual. The fact that they have in general showed atrocious form this season (with a not unexpected drop in attendance/interest as a result) is nothing to do with the competition itself.

In other words its not a perfect competition (neither was the one before) but that the extent to which it is England's and France's fault is limited to the fact that their teams have played better this year than those from the Pro12

Jimpy wrote:Hardly surprising when the venues for both semi-finals were football stadium with capacities well in excess of 30 000

What kind of an excuse is this bollox ? 

What cannot speak, cannot lie, the crowd for Cardiff V Leicester a few years ago had more people in attendance that BOTH this years semi finals. The fact that the two stadiums used could not be filled should start alarm bells ringing.

lostinwales wrote:From what I have read here then the time scales involved in scheduling may have had an impact on attendances in the knock out phases.

As apposed to what ? When it was run before by the unions ? If so then yes it is the fault of the people running it now.

So what can be done LD? Should we give Munster a bye to the semis?

Have to agree with LondonTiger... The changes in the format is not why the attendances where low. It could be down to other factors, such as locations, price of tickets, etc.. For example, how many French fans (Racing and Grenoble) could afford to travel, similarly with Dragons fans to Montpellier.. There's no simple answer to this one, but when you have fans traveling "abroad" you will lose so many away fans. And then there's the price of the tickets. They are too high... It was mentioned about the Blues v Leicester semi. Well they where clever there, by moving it to the MS, and not charging ridiculous ticket prices. That way, other non blues fans, turned up for a good day out, and what happened to be a great day of rugby and climatic penalty shoot out. That day, there where more NON blue fans than Blues. I and my mates (all Osprey fans) went along. And we met, Scarlet fans, Dragons fans as well as village teams, who turned out to give the Welsh region, WELSH support. That isn't going to happen if you have to travel and pay ridiculous ticket prices...

So perhaps, they need to be more flexible when the semi finals are known, by moving venues to allow fans to travel as cheaply as possible..

And be sensible with ticket pricing...

No9 wrote:So perhaps, they need to be more flexible when the semi finals are known, by moving venues to allow fans to travel as cheaply as possible..

And be sensible with ticket pricing...

So the organisers of the old HC were doing things better than the organisers we have now. Is that what you are saying ? As high ticket prices goes along with the greedy club owners line I was using.

Too little notice, too expensive for tickets, too unlucky that two English teams drew each other.

LT gets my backing on this one as I don't think it's the format. The prices for going to the Montpelier/Dragons game were extortionate so hats off to those that did make it.

As for scheduling the two Leicester games on the same day is just unbelievably stupid.

There isn't near the hype surrounding this competition as before. When SKY had the HC you used to know weeks in advance that a European weekend was coming up. Now I find out on Friday it's Europe time. The competition is almost the same but it doesn't feel the same. It's hard to explain but it feels as though the soul has been sucked out of the competition.

PhilBB wrote:Too little notice, too expensive for tickets, too unlucky that two English teams drew each other.

Which HAS to be the organisers fault, yes ?

bedfordwelsh wrote:LT gets my backing on this one as I don't think it's the format.  The prices for going to the Montpelier/Dragons game were extortionate so hats off to those that did make it.

As for scheduling the two Leicester games on the same day is just unbelievably stupid.

Again, who is at fault for this ? I would say the organisers , wouldn't you ?

Personally, my interest in the whole thing is pretty slight these days. Obviously, being Welsh, not having anyone even near the business end of the comp is a stumbling block! But that aside, the new comp just feels a shadow of its former self. I think the way the TV deal was split up was hugely detrimental to the whole thing. Trying to work out which broadcaster is showing what is a pain-in-the-rectum, and gone are the leisurely full Saturday in the pub watching 3 or 4 games. I don’t have Sky but took on BT Sport TV for a small fee, but I can’t believe how few European games seem to be on it. I’ll be cancelling my BT Sport subs as soon as my contract period is up (I’ll still get the free internet version through broadband). At the end of the day, the narrowing of the top-table of Euro rugby to a handful very rich super-clubs is a real snooze-fest, unless you support one of them.

That last point Marcus has little to do with the 'new' comp.

I think it's just been a poor quality year, the games have been pretty dire to watch, ticket prices too high, daft scheduling.

If the AP can fill Twickers/Wembley several times a year it's obviously not a lack of people prepared to go watch rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:LT gets my backing on this one as I don't think it's the format.  The prices for going to the Montpelier/Dragons game were extortionate so hats off to those that did make it.

As for scheduling the two Leicester games on the same day is just unbelievably stupid.

Again, who is at fault for this ? I would say the organisers , wouldn't you ?

Possibly for the Leicester clash but not the Montpelier/Dragons game as its always been a home (albeit Home Country) semi final for someone even in the old format.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Possibly for the Leicester clash but not the Montpelier/Dragons game as its always been a home (albeit Home Country) semi final for someone even in the old format.

The stadium was full for the Montpelier/Dragons game wasn't it ? But who arranges the ticket price for that game ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Too little notice, too expensive for tickets, too unlucky that two English teams drew each other.

Which HAS to be the organisers fault, yes ?

I don't know if the timing of the knock out games was dictated by the Unions, the desire for the T14 to play out after the EPRC final or just because the organisers chose these dates.

We would need to know why these dates were chosen before we could apportion 'blame'.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Too little notice, too expensive for tickets, too unlucky that two English teams drew each other.

Which HAS to be the organisers fault, yes ?

Or it could be the fault of the Pro12 teams to fail to make an impact this year.

There are structural things to tweak, but get an Irish team or 2 back in the business end, get a Welsh or a Scottish team on another run and things might change

PhilBB wrote:I don't know if the timing of the knock out games was dictated by the Unions, the desire for the T14 to play out after the EPRC final or just because the organisers chose these dates.

The Unions have nothing to do with the Euro comps don't they ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:That last point Marcus has little to do with the 'new' comp.

Indeed 7&1/2 - it read as if I was blaming the new comp for that, but I agree, it would probably be thus whatever the format. Just a bit sad to see money becoming the driving force behind success in the sport - inevitable in the pro game I suppose, but then if anyone actually gave a ^&%$ about sticking to the salary caps it might have mitigated things a little!

lostinwales wrote:Or it could be the fault of the Pro12 teams to fail to make an impact this year.

What has that got to do with the scheduling ? Also, with the amount of French and English teams in the groups then there is more of a chance of seeing them in the knock outs.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:I don't know if the timing of the knock out games was dictated by the Unions, the desire for the T14 to play out after the EPRC final or just because the organisers chose these dates.

The Unions have nothing to do with the Euro comps don't they ?

Apart from owning 50% of it, you mean?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There isn't near the hype surrounding this competition as before. When SKY had the HC you used to know weeks in advance that a European weekend was coming up. Now I find out on Friday it's Europe time. The competition is almost the same but it doesn't feel the same. It's hard to explain but it feels as though the soul has been sucked out of the competition.

There's still a lot of animosity in the air, which lead to a lot of tetchy and defensive comments but that statement rings true to me

Would it have made a difference if a Pro12 team had made it further in the competition? Probably, but we'll never know. I do think it was a blunder to split the broadcast contract but that was always the only compromise after we ended up in a game of chicken because we couldn't sort our differences out beforehand.

With a decent competition in any popular sport, the last rounds should draw a lot of interest from people who aren't affiliated with either team, but want to see a top class event. That doesn't seem to be happening, and I'd put that down to poor marketing.

PhilBB wrote:Apart from owning 50% of it, you mean?

Yes, but they do not organise it. Or do they ?

Rugby Fan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There isn't near the hype surrounding this competition as before. When SKY had the HC you used to know weeks in advance that a European weekend was coming up. Now I find out on Friday it's Europe time. The competition is almost the same but it doesn't feel the same. It's hard to explain but it feels as though the soul has been sucked out of the competition.

There's still a lot of animosity in the air, which lead to a lot of tetchy and defensive comments but that statement rings true to me

Would it have made a difference if a Pro12 team had made it further in the competition? Probably, but we'll never know. I do think it was a blunder to split the broadcast contract but that was always the only compromise after we ended up in a  game of chicken because we couldn't sort our differences out beforehand.

With a decent competition in any popular sport, the last rounds should draw a lot of interest from people who aren't affiliated with either team, but want to see a top class event. That doesn't seem to be happening, and I'd put that down to poor marketing.

This is exactly how I feel about the new competition as well. Perhaps it's because it is not hyped up to the moon and back anymore, where we would see adverts left right and center about it, and Heineken would use it in their advertising as well. 

The bit I underlined, about poor marketing, this is how the competition is being run surely ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Apart from owning 50% of it, you mean?

Yes, but they do not organise it. Or do they ?

There is a board to organise it but unless you believe that EPCR can choose whatever weekend it wants, without involving the leagues, then I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

You may be right, but I am not seeing the evidence that would support your belief. Can you provide it?

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Or it could be the fault of the Pro12 teams to fail to make an impact this year.

What has that got to do with the scheduling ? Also, with the amount of French and English teams in the groups then there is more of a chance of seeing them in the knock outs.

Its got nowt to do with scheduling. The make up of the teams in the knock out stages has everything to do with the failure of the pro12 teams this year. A couple of years ago everyone was proclaiming the failure of the English AP because it was failing to produce teams that were any threat at the business end of this competition. These things can go in cycles.

The 'more chance of seeing them' line only adds up if every team participating has an equal chance of progressing, which given their individual qualities is obviously false. No previous winner from the Pro12 failed to qualify.

The only other difference to previous years is that with one less Italian team there is one less group with a guaranteed 2 qualifiers.

I know there is an argument about the money split from the competition, but I had understood that the teams involved do get funding from other sources than the European cup, sources which are nothing to do with England and France.

LondonTiger wrote:Yet again I ask, how has the new competition created this situation? After all the changes to the competition did not make the Irish teams less competitive - that was other factors. The changes to the competition did not mean that no Welsh side has made the semi finals since 2009 - that pre-dates this competition.


Yes the crowds were disappointing, but in line with previous attendances for semi finals in England. So which change to the competition created this please.

The answer is still the same:
The PRO12 sides get less money relative to the PRL/LNR teams so are less competitive.
- because of that their squads are proportionately smaller/lower quality
- meaning those squads are far more pressurised because fewer teams now qualify
- meaning the ERCC is not a realistic goal for PRO12 teams
- meaning a far higher proportion of the competitive games are between franglo teams
- so there is less diversity and therefore romance to capture the casual spectator's imagination

... and the joint coverage is a joke that stymies momentum.

The Great Aukster wrote:
The PRO12 sides get less money relative to the PRL/LNR teams so are less competitive.

That is wholly untrue.

Each league gets €20m.

Do the maths.

The only proof I can provide is the fact that the PRL went to war with the union controlled competition, which points me i the direction that the unions were not thought of very highly in all the debacle and now the competition is in the hands of a club run organisation. Isn't that what happened ? If so then the unions have nothing to do with the running of the competitions.

LordDowlais wrote:The only proof I can provide is the fact that the PRL went to war with the union controlled competition, which points me i the direction that the unions were not thought of very highly in all the debacle and now the competition is in the hands of a club run organisation. Isn't that what happened ? If so then the unions have nothing to do with the running of the competitions.

Who is on the board of the business running the competition? Shall we start there?

Then, let me know who decides the available weekends.

Then, but only then, would we be in a position to reach the conclusion you seemingly already have reached.

Anybody know of any tv viewing figures available? A comparison could help show if there has been a decrease in interest since the EPRC took over.

LordDowlais wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There isn't near the hype surrounding this competition as before. When SKY had the HC you used to know weeks in advance that a European weekend was coming up. Now I find out on Friday it's Europe time. The competition is almost the same but it doesn't feel the same. It's hard to explain but it feels as though the soul has been sucked out of the competition.

There's still a lot of animosity in the air, which lead to a lot of tetchy and defensive comments but that statement rings true to me

Would it have made a difference if a Pro12 team had made it further in the competition? Probably, but we'll never know. I do think it was a blunder to split the broadcast contract but that was always the only compromise after we ended up in a  game of chicken because we couldn't sort our differences out beforehand.

With a decent competition in any popular sport, the last rounds should draw a lot of interest from people who aren't affiliated with either team, but want to see a top class event. That doesn't seem to be happening, and I'd put that down to poor marketing.

This is exactly how I feel about the new competition as well. Perhaps it's because it is not hyped up to the moon and back anymore, where we would see adverts left right and center about it, and Heineken would use it in their advertising as well. 

The bit I underlined, about poor marketing, this is how the competition is being run surely ?

Yes. The organisers can't dictate the standard of play, but they are responsible for how the package is presented.

We're prepared to bring back the magic to Europe (under duress!!! - and still feeling sore, mind you!!!!!).... by accepting lifetime automatic semi-final spots for all four Irish Provinces.
And let that be the end of it!
We're prepared to do this to save AP, Top14 and Welsh Regionalism! And let nobody say we ain't generous of spirit ever again.

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yet again I ask, how has the new competition created this situation? After all the changes to the competition did not make the Irish teams less competitive - that was other factors. The changes to the competition did not mean that no Welsh side has made the semi finals since 2009 - that pre-dates this competition.


Yes the crowds were disappointing, but in line with previous attendances for semi finals in England. So which change to the competition created this please.

The answer is still the same:
The PRO12 sides get less money relative to the PRL/LNR teams so are less competitive.
- because of that their squads are proportionately smaller/lower quality
- meaning those squads are far more pressurised because fewer teams now qualify
- meaning the ERCC is not a realistic goal for PRO12 teams
- meaning a far higher proportion of the competitive games are between franglo teams
- so there is less diversity and therefore romance to capture the casual spectator's imagination

... and the joint coverage is a joke that stymies momentum.

Bet you can't prove that bit.
1) Europe is not the only source of funding. No idea how much it adds up to but I'd guess that it is a significant chunk but not that significant
2) As far as I can remember the deal was that Pro12 teams would not get less money than before, just a smaller slice of a bigger pie. The PRL argument before had been that under the previous conditions Pro12 got a bigger slice of a smaller pie.
3) Time lag. If there is a significant difference in funding then I'd expect it to have an effect but over several years, not the first year.
4) Other evidence. It is pretty obvious that right now the Irish teams are going through a bit of a transition phase and are not performing as they were. That does hit crowds. There may also be the RWC factor. These things are not related to the European cup.

No auto qualification means that most Pro12 sides actually have to try in the Pro12. Makes a change.

Positive for a team like Connacht though who no longer hang on the coat tails of the other Irish teams. They can earn Euro qualification through their own merits.

The two Scottish sides also seem to have woken up to this reality too.

The biggest losers have been the Welsh and Italians surprise surprise Lorddowlais is Welsh.

The Welsh regions need to up their game or they'll be left behind. Same with the Italians.

beshocked wrote:No auto qualification means that most Pro12 sides actually have to try in the Pro12. Makes a change.

Which is why I think the Pro12 teams should start paying more homage to it.

beshocked wrote:The two Scottish sides also seem to have woken up to this reality too.

Only Glasgow I would say

beshocked wrote:The biggest losers have been the Welsh and Italians surprise surprise Lorddowlais is Welsh.

The Welsh teams have never done all that good in Europe, but it still did not quash my excitement for it. Now, I just find it drab and boring.

beshocked wrote:The Welsh regions need to up their game or they'll be left behind. Same with the Italians.

What has that got to do with not selling out tickets for two semi finals ?

I personally feel the same way as rugby fan, and Fly, do. That the soul has been sucked out of it, that the magic has gone. Maybe the fact that no Irish, or any PRO12 sides, are involved in the knock-outs has something to do with that, but maybe the fall-out over control of the competition has left a bitter taste. Not that I feel bitter. I don't. I want it to work. I want to look forward to the competition, but I do feel a bit 'meh' about it.

I don't know, but it could be that supporters from all sides feel the competition has lost some of its appeal, and that's why numbers are down, but other things do need to considered, such as; ticket pricing, scheduling, it being a world cup year, split broadcasting and poor marketing. There may also be a growing sense that only certain clubs, big money clubs, have a chance, with the rest just being along for the ride.

One thing that does stand out, the ERC, although not perfect, was a success, as far as hosting the competition goes.

That all sounds very bleak, but EPCR might still make it work yet. Time will tell.

Lorddowlais the Scottish and Italians haven't done very well in Europe either. The biggest disappointment has been the Irish clubs but then again they faced 3 of the semi finalists - arguably the 3 toughest English sides in the competition.

Edinburgh are doing better than usual.

There's going to less variety if you've got Pro12 teams performing poorly. Need to up your game just as the English clubs have.

Need to look closer to home.

beshocked wrote:Edinburgh are doing better than usual.

No they ain't, not really.

beshocked wrote:There's going to less variety if you've got Pro12 teams performing poorly. Need to up your game just as the English clubs have.

How would that improve the crowds at the semi-finals though ? 

Unless you reckon the Pro12 teams would bring in more support than the French and English teams.

Having a travelling army of Irish would help wouldn't it?