Short Game practise

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Post by Nay on Sun 08 May 2016, 4:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

Afternoon All

I am hoping for sone help / assistance.

Right now i have the long game of a decent player and the short game of a terrible player however its got to the stage that to start to lower my handicap i really need to start getting up and down.

So my question is what practise would you recomend, do you use whoch has helped improve your short game.

PS, i have had lessons and my technique is fine.

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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 12 May 2016, 9:22 am

Well said roller.

Short of the green is almost always better than long. If you land it short the ball can still bounce and roll on to the green, especially in summer. If you go long it's often a lost ball.

I guess someone like mac who doesn't play golf wouldn't understand this.

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 12 May 2016, 9:30 am

That said, personally I try to club it to get on the damn things Very Happy

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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 10:25 am

I am not sure why we are getting distracted by what is 20 yard over the back of the green. How many of the over the back is doom proponents don't play to get to the pin?

The crucial point is that hackers are at least 2 clubs short a lot of the time, so clearly clubbing up would only provide the chance to reach the green and would not involve whatever disaster people think is over the back.

As I said at worst you would roll into the fringe at the back.


And Ray, if people are laying up to avoid going over the back that is genuinely a concept I have never encountered in over 15 years of playing the game.
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Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:13 am

McLaren wrote:I am not sure why we are getting distracted by what is 20 yard over the back of the green.  How many of the over the back is doom proponents don't play to get to the pin?

The crucial point is that hackers are at least 2 clubs short a lot of the time, so clearly clubbing up would only provide the chance to reach the green and would not involve whatever disaster people think is over the back.

As I said at worst you would roll into the fringe at the back.


And Ray, if people are laying up to avoid going over the back that is genuinely a concept I have never encountered in over 15 years of playing the game.
I presume you take an extra 3 clubs then?
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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:18 am

In general I take the club that will get me to the flag.
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Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:23 am

In general is that 1, 2 or 3 clubs less or 1, 2 or 3 clubs more than you need?
Just trying to establish your 'hacker' status...
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Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:44 am

Short Game practise - Page 2 1347041234

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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:53 am

Depends on the wind, elevation change, stance, temp etc. And length of shot because I can usually nail the yardage on short to mid iron, but on the longer irons I know my variation due to miss hits increases.

Further, the extra club thing is based on observation, if I started coming up short all the time I would alter how far each club goes when trying to work out club choice.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:55 am

Getting off-topic, but I'm kinda with Mac here, I'm afraid. Most trouble, on most courses (by which I mean bunkers, streams etc), is short. Most amateurs woefully over-estimate both how far they hit a given club and the likelihood of actually hitting that given club well and Heaven knows if they even consider properly where the pin is on the green and how big the green actually is.

Now, I'm not saying that air mailing a green is likely to be good, but if one is talking about running through (or maybe second bounce through) a green, the likelihood is it won't be in a bunker (most amateurs haven't a clue how to hit a decent greenside splash bunker shot consistently well) and worst case, they have a chip back out of light rough.


Last edited by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by beninho on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:55 am

But if you are a hacker, then you usually struggle as you go down your clubs, i know I do. So why club up, if you have more chance that you are going to hit it poorly and be in worse position, than just short of the green?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:57 am

beninho wrote:But if you are a hacker, then you usually struggle as you go down your clubs, i know I do. So why club up, if you have more chance that you are going to hit it poorly and be in worse position, than just short of the green?
Headscratch Not sure I follow Ben...

Assuming you mean most people hit longer clubs worse, we're only likely talking a single club here. Hit a 7-iron, instead of the 8-iron etc...
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Post by beninho on Thu 12 May 2016, 12:03 pm

The talk was about 2 clubs short. I'm an occasional hacker, I am pretty consistent with my wedge, 9,8,7, a bit more erratic with the 6 for some reason, and a lot more erratic with the 5/4 and hybrids off the floor. So if i could get close enough with a 7 more often than not, but anything could happen with a 5, including catching it well, then why not play the club that will give you better chance to keep you in the game?


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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 12:07 pm

Navy - Hopefully you have made my point better than I have been making because that last post captures the idea I was getting at.


Ben

Using that logic why not just play 3 wedges or 9 irons to every par 4?
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Post by super_realist on Thu 12 May 2016, 12:07 pm

Not sure why anyone would purposely want to miss 18 greens by being short.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 12:14 pm

Hell knows super, only in the mire that is 606v2 logic can you get accused of never having played the game for suggesting you should actually aim to get your ball near the hole.
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Post by beninho on Thu 12 May 2016, 12:29 pm

I'm not saying anything about purposely missing the green. It all depends on the distance and how good you are with a certain club.

The initial mention was 165yards, and the mention of taking an extra two clubs. People said it was 6 iron range for them, but have seen hackers come up short. But if you are an erratic ball striker, why would you hit 4 or 5 iron, which you would likely hit less successful than a 7 iron which may get the front of the green, because you hit it more consistent?

WIth regards to using 9 irons on par fours, i reckon my score would be a lot better if i did, but the round would probably not be as much fun!

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Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 12 May 2016, 12:33 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Getting off-topic, but I'm kinda with Mac here, I'm afraid. Most trouble, on most courses (by which I mean bunkers, streams etc), is short. Most amateurs woefully over-estimate both how far they hit a given club and the likelihood of actually hitting that given club well and Heaven knows if they even consider properly where the pin is on the green and how big the green actually is.
You don't count yourself as most amateurs? From the sounds of it very few on here count as most amateurs. So who are these people? Not counting the ones that intentionally hit it short of the green.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 1:16 pm

Monty

I have been at the needing to club up stage. When I was younger I would get really worried about how far I could hit my irons. Out of stubbornness a 9 iron had to be used from 150, because that was considered long.

The comfort that came with abandoning silly notions of like that not only made the game more enjoyable but meant I could stop trying to crush everything and could take a more measured swing.
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Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 12 May 2016, 1:20 pm

I've tried both and find I have a much more consistent strike if I just Frak leather it. A more measured swing for me is inconsistent. Having said that I never practice so maybe that's what I should be doing.
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Post by super_realist on Thu 12 May 2016, 2:21 pm

beninho wrote:The talk was about 2 clubs short. I'm an occasional hacker, I am pretty consistent with my wedge, 9,8,7, a bit more erratic with the 6 for some reason, and a lot more erratic with the 5/4 and hybrids off the floor. So if i could get close enough with a 7 more often than not, but anything could happen with a 5, including catching it well,  then why not play the club that will give you better chance to keep you in the game?


In that case, why even bother carrying anything longer than your 6 iron?

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Post by beninho on Thu 12 May 2016, 2:58 pm

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:The talk was about 2 clubs short. I'm an occasional hacker, I am pretty consistent with my wedge, 9,8,7, a bit more erratic with the 6 for some reason, and a lot more erratic with the 5/4 and hybrids off the floor. So if i could get close enough with a 7 more often than not, but anything could happen with a 5, including catching it well,  then why not play the club that will give you better chance to keep you in the game?


In that case, why even bother carrying anything longer than your 6 iron?

Because that is not fun? While I talk about hitting one club and not another, as I mentioned in my first post on the subject, its not how I play. Maybe if i did i would score better though? I love having a whack with a driver or smacking a hybrid, if they are all rubbish and come off on the 18th I can finish my round happy!

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Post by golfermartin on Thu 12 May 2016, 3:27 pm

All this talk about "going for flags" presupposes that the golfer is trying to par the hole. An 18 handicap golfer only needs to bogey every hole to play to their handicap. So on a par 4, knock something off the tee, lay up short of the greenside hazards and the chip / pitch and 2 putt. Play a similar strategy on par 3s (on in two and two putt) and 5s (on in 4 and 2 putt) and you play to your handicap. If you happen to hit a couple of chips / pitches close or sink a couple of putts, you might get a couple of pars and you beat your handicap. What is wrong with that?

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Post by super_realist on Thu 12 May 2016, 4:29 pm

Why would you not try to par the hole and favour a bogey instead?

Obviously it depends on the risk, but if you are chipping your third after laying up short, how is that any different from chipping on from left, right or through the green? Nobody is saying "go for the pin", but going for the biggest, safest part of the green is surely preferable from playing it 30 yards short?

Surely by aiming for the green and hitting a club capable of getting there, you are much more likely to hit it, then constantly playing a shot where you are never going to make it, after all, the name of the game is to get the lowest score you can, and if you want to improve, how can you ever do that by restricting your chances of improving your score?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 May 2016, 5:02 pm

beninho wrote:I'm not saying anything about purposely missing the green. It all depends on the distance and how good you are with a certain club.

The initial mention was 165yards, and the mention of taking an extra two clubs. People said it was 6 iron range for them, but have seen hackers come up short. But if you are an erratic ball striker, why would you hit 4 or 5 iron, which you would likely hit less successful than a 7 iron which may get the front of the green, because you hit it more consistent?

WIth regards to using 9 irons on par fours, i reckon my score would be a lot better if i did, but the round would probably not be as much fun!
Depends on your aims. If a 7-iron layup is commensurate with a bogey result and outside chance of par, and you're happy with that re. handicap etc, fine. Go for it.

MontysMerkin wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Getting off-topic, but I'm kinda with Mac here, I'm afraid. Most trouble, on most courses (by which I mean bunkers, streams etc), is short. Most amateurs woefully over-estimate both how far they hit a given club and the likelihood of actually hitting that given club well and Heaven knows if they even consider properly where the pin is on the green and how big the green actually is.
You don't count yourself as most amateurs? From the sounds of it very few on here count as most amateurs. So who are these people? Not counting the ones that intentionally hit it short of the green.
Dunno. I do know that I've been playing for ~40 years and been Cat 1 for ~35. I make c0ck-ups all the time, but I do hope I've gained some reasonable insight into managing my way round a course and strike the ball fairly consistently. I know what I can and can't do, most of the time, so I play accordingly. I'm not sure I can say that for the partners I've had in medals over the last few years.
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Post by Nay on Thu 12 May 2016, 5:19 pm

Surely the aim of golf is to get par, how uou do ot doesn't matter.

So if a player is so inconsistent with ther 4 iron from 165, its a lottery where the ball ends up. Then a better approach may be to hit a consistent 7 iron, pitch/chip on and 1 putt.


Got to be better than duck hooking second into gorse bushes and taking it from there.

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Post by beninho on Thu 12 May 2016, 5:27 pm

My problem is that i would try the 4/5 or hybrid shot, instead of the sensible option, in the hope it might come off.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 12 May 2016, 5:54 pm

Doesn't that tell you that you need to practice those longer shots? Surely if you want to improve the likelihood of those types of shots coming of, rather than meekly laying up and not progressing, that's what is required?

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Post by beninho on Thu 12 May 2016, 5:56 pm

I would love to practice those shots, but I play once every 4/5 weeks, and dont practice at all in between. I play it for fun and am not expecting to progress. Some times i will play ok, other I wont. But I am fine with it.

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Post by Nay on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:19 pm

Depends on your motivation for wanting to play though Super and the time you have available.

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:35 pm

Have you managed to put any of the suggestions into action LL? If so, how did you get on?

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Post by Nay on Thu 12 May 2016, 6:51 pm

Yeah, was out on Tuesday, Spent an hour and a half practising.

Set up a few tees around a 3 foot area and chipped with aim of getting up and down in two (a point if i did, bonus point for chipping into circle)

Also putting wise set up tees a foot past the hole and to side and putted from various distances. (2 points for holed putt, 1 point for 2 putt with first being past th hole in teed area. No points if failed to reach hole)

AfterAfter a while had grooved a tempo, putting wise which seemed to help but will see. Chipping needs more practise.

Im just walking along to get 9 holes in an hour or so short game practise. So see how i get on.

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Thu 12 May 2016, 7:05 pm

Good stuff LL. Sometimes at the start it's a little bit trial and error to find what works for you.

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Post by Davie on Thu 12 May 2016, 8:25 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Most amateurs woefully over-estimate both how far they hit a given club and the likelihood of actually hitting that given club well and Heaven knows if they even consider properly where the pin is on the green and how big the green actually is.

I'm with Mac and NBS on this one .. and I'd even go further than the quote above, to say "Most amateurs woefully over-estimate both how far they CARRY a given club. And when we seem to agree most of the trouble is short of the green, this is a big thing.

I've discussed before how I'm a short hitter and I can probably get a 5 iron out to 160-165 yards - but off the tee, and with roll. So the carry is nothing like that. Playing into soft greens, I can may CARRY a 5 iron about 145 - so if a par 3 or approach shot is 150 yds with trouble in front, I'll always hit that 160 yard club, knowing that if I hit it right it will get over the front trouble - OK it may get a hard bounce and go 160 so I'm 10 yards past - but give me a 30ft putt rather than a 10 yd bunker shot every time

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Post by golfermartin on Thu 12 May 2016, 9:07 pm

super_realist wrote:Why would you not try to par the hole and favour a bogey instead?

Because "par" for an 18 handicapper is "bogey" for a scratch golfer. Most amateur golfers only get a couple of actual pars a round anyway. Most amateur golfers are higher than 18 handicap (it used to be that golfers of 18 and below were in the best 10% of all golfers - it may not be the case now). Most amateurs are just happy to be out there hitting golf balls after a week at work. The idea for most of us is to try to beat our handicap and maybe win some silverware on a good day. "Using your shots" is one way of doing that. That is all I am saying. It's not the way I play, because I need to get some at least a few pars a round.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 12 May 2016, 9:54 pm

Davie

It sounds like you have a high golfing IQ, and should really be rewarded with some lower scores.

I will take your approach to course management any day over some of the odd ball theories proposed on this thread so far.
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Post by SmithersJones on Thu 12 May 2016, 11:17 pm

Who are these people who hit it dead straight all the time but don't take enough club? I've never played with anyone like that in my life. Left and right are much more common than short or long. I played tonight, and missed 1 short right, 4 left pin high, 5 bunker right, 6 bunker left, 7 long and left, 10 short left punching out from trees, 12 short, 13 pin high right, 15 short left off a side hill lie, 17 pin high left in bunker and 18 right then left (don't ask). Most misses short were due to the wind being behind with short iron in hand, and it being generally better to be short and so below the hole than long and above.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 May 2016, 9:05 am

I'm not so sure about this "bogey is par for most people" stuff.

I play off 2, which means I have 2 holes in which I supposedly get a  stroke, I gain nothing by playing those SI holes as bogeys and to my knowledge, even when I got my first handicap I never played with the SI in mind, now, of course it is more likely to make a par or birdie on those holes, say than a higher handicapper who by definition is more inconsistent, but if I played it as a bogey, how would I ever improve and shoot lower scores than my handicap? Of course, it's all about "fun", but when has it ever been fun to be worse at something?

It's a bit like people who aim for a "dustbin lid" when putting. 90% of the time (obviously tricky downhill snakers are a tricky one to hole), I'm trying to hole the putt. Why would you purposely try and miss, similarly, why give yourself zero chance of hitting a green?

No wonder the average handicap has remained 16 for decades.

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Post by beninho on Fri 13 May 2016, 9:28 am

I play off 20. Nothing formal though. I will always try and play each hole in the shortest possible strokes. I though would probably get appx 2/3 pars ,6/7 bogeys, 4/5 doubles and 2/3 shockers. On average.

I never really think about the extra shot or shots apart from when making my scorecard. Though as mentioned before my course management is not great.

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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 13 May 2016, 11:38 am

SmithersJones wrote:
Most misses short were due to the wind being behind with short iron in hand, and it being generally better to be short and so below the hole than long and above.

Ahh, someone else who speaks sense.

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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 13 May 2016, 11:48 am

I think these debates are what makes this forum great. I'm sure on the other pages on this forum the discussions are very different. Probably none of the people on the wrestling page do any wrestling, apart from wrestling with the wrapper of a king size mars bar.

Here it's very different. We have the keen golfers like Super, single, no children, loads of time to play and practise. We have the self confessed hackers like Beninho, family and other commitments meaning golf is low down in the priority list. And we have the armchair fans like Mac, avid followers of the game but not actual players of the game (other than playstation). And of course we have lots of people in the middle of the spectrum. Sometimes it's difficult for everyone to understand each others decisions, but it's very interesting hearing about them.

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Post by McLaren on Fri 13 May 2016, 11:55 am

That was a bit of long post just to reiterate that you think I don't play the game.
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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:13 pm

super_realist wrote:
No wonder the average handicap has remained 16 for decades.

I think this has more to do with the amount of time people dedicate to golf rather than anything else. I'm lucky if I play once a fortnight, if I get home early from work my wife hands me the baby, not much chance of nipping out to practise. That's hardly a foundation to improve my scoring.

Having said that, I've never played with someone who looks at the SI and uses this to determine their strategy in a medal. But it's pretty obvious that most courses have a few long tough par 4s where higher handicappers typically lay up. These holes are often SI 1, 2, etc.

The finishing hole at my old course is a good example: 440 yard par 4, with water in front of and to the right of the long narrow green, and OOB to the left and the back. Most people lay up. Personally, I was only comfortable hitting an iron into that green, too much risk of missing left or right with a hybrid or fairway. Let's say I hit a 250 yard drive and the flag was at the back, 210 yards away, I would rather hit a 4 iron 190 for my approach and leave it on or near the front of the green rather than take a hybrid and risk tugging it pin high but OOB. If I didn't hit a great tee shot I would lay up to 100 yards and wedge it in. This isn't rocket science, surely most people think like this?

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Post by raycastleunited on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:29 pm

McLaren wrote:That was a bit of long post just to reiterate that you think I don't play the game.

Not really, it was more around the assumption from some of the keener golfers that everyone has the time / opportunity / desire to improve.

When I look at your posts over the course of this thread, they are contradictory and you frequently change the goal posts to suit your points (hmmn, seen this somewhere before...). What is clear is that you have a very specific view that "hackers" under club by 2 clubs on approaches. You are also explicit that a 165 yard approach is a 9 iron for you, which most people on here consider to be under clubbing by 2-3 clubs. Coincidence? Or maybe you are used to seeing Jason Day etc hit it that far. Or maybe that's how far Tiger hits a 9 iron on playstation (or whatever computer game you play).

You also don't seem to understand the danger on most courses for going over the back of the green. In professional golf, there are usually stands to the back of the green so players get a free drop and it's not really an issue, in fact I've frequently seen pros deliberately fly the green because they have a "back stop". I understand your point of view if your experience is limited to watching pro golf. What happens if you go over the back of the green on playstation?

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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:36 pm

It's not really like that though Ray, I don't expect everyone to have the time to practice, but rather, if we were playing football, instead of shooting from 18 yards, would you always wait until you were 5 yards out? Course not.




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Post by beninho on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:47 pm

You would get more off target from 18 yards in comparison to 5 yards in football. In fact it is much easier to score from 5 yards, for players of all abilities. I really dont get that comparison.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:51 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
No wonder the average handicap has remained 16 for decades.

I think this has more to do with the amount of time people dedicate to golf rather than anything else. I'm lucky if I play once a fortnight, if I get home early from work my wife hands me the baby, not much chance of nipping out to practise. That's hardly a foundation to improve my scoring.

Having said that, I've never played with someone who looks at the SI and uses this to determine their strategy in a medal. But it's pretty obvious that most courses have a few long tough par 4s where higher handicappers typically lay up. These holes are often SI 1, 2, etc.

The finishing hole at my old course is a good example: 440 yard par 4, with water in front of and to the right of the long narrow green, and OOB to the left and the back. Most people lay up. Personally, I was only comfortable hitting an iron into that green, too much risk of missing left or right with a hybrid or fairway. Let's say I hit a 250 yard drive and the flag was at the back, 210 yards away, I would rather hit a 4 iron 190 for my approach and leave it on or near the front of the green rather than take a hybrid and risk tugging it pin high but OOB. If I didn't hit a great tee shot I would lay up to 100 yards and wedge it in. This isn't rocket science, surely most people think like this?

It might be a reason, but I don't see it as an excuse, if I did any sport just once a week for say 10 years, I'd still expect to attain a level higher than the equivalent of a 16 handicapper. For instance, football, tennis, running etc. If I did any sport, but wasn't seeing an improvement, I'm not sure I could get pleasure out of not progressing in it.

Is golf considerably harder than any other sport? I don't think it is, but I do see people approach it in a different way to other sports and people seem content to be less than average at it.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:54 pm

beninho wrote:You would get more off target from 18 yards in comparison to 5 yards in football. In fact it is much easier to score from 5 yards, for players of all abilities. I really dont get that comparison.

Of course you're more likely to miss the target, but is the chance of scoring outweighed by the difficulty of getting the ball to within 5 yards?

The hilarious thing is that high handicappers are perfectly willing to take risks off the tee by hitting the longest, most difficult club in the bag to hit on every single hole they can, yet, when it comes to going for the green in regulation, they bottle it. Doesn't make sense to me. If someone is going to use "craft" to get their net par, why are they not using similar cunning off the tee in the first place?

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:55 pm

But with the new Taylormade ugamawhatyamacallit boot all shots are guaranteed to be longer and straighter and will nestle in the top corner. No more having to fetch it from the allotments behind the goal. No doubt Mac's boots would be two sizes too small and he would struggle to reach the six yard box

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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 May 2016, 12:58 pm

It all comes down to course management really, and most people have terrible course management. There's a time to go for the safe shot, and a time to go for the pin.
I won't attempt every par 5 in two unless i'm within a certain distance and the risk of a bad shot is low.

I really wish club makers would stop obsessing about distance and start designing for more accuracy.

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Post by beninho on Fri 13 May 2016, 1:49 pm

super_realist wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
No wonder the average handicap has remained 16 for decades.

I think this has more to do with the amount of time people dedicate to golf rather than anything else. I'm lucky if I play once a fortnight, if I get home early from work my wife hands me the baby, not much chance of nipping out to practise. That's hardly a foundation to improve my scoring.

Having said that, I've never played with someone who looks at the SI and uses this to determine their strategy in a medal. But it's pretty obvious that most courses have a few long tough par 4s where higher handicappers typically lay up. These holes are often SI 1, 2, etc.

The finishing hole at my old course is a good example: 440 yard par 4, with water in front of and to the right of the long narrow green, and OOB to the left and the back. Most people lay up. Personally, I was only comfortable hitting an iron into that green, too much risk of missing left or right with a hybrid or fairway. Let's say I hit a 250 yard drive and the flag was at the back, 210 yards away, I would rather hit a 4 iron 190 for my approach and leave it on or near the front of the green rather than take a hybrid and risk tugging it pin high but OOB. If I didn't hit a great tee shot I would lay up to 100 yards and wedge it in. This isn't rocket science, surely most people think like this?

It might be a reason, but I don't see it as an excuse, if I did any sport just once a week for say 10 years, I'd still expect to attain a level higher than the equivalent of a 16 handicapper. For instance, football, tennis, running etc. If I did any sport, but wasn't seeing an improvement, I'm not sure I could get pleasure out of not progressing in it.

Is golf considerably harder than any other sport? I don't think it is, but I do see people approach it in a different way to other sports and people seem content to be less than average at it.


What you say just backs up Rays initial point. everyone is different, and play for different things. You mention playing once a week for 10 years, i would guess very few people either on this board or in general do not play golf once a week. Im maybe once a month. I think once a week would certainly mean most people would improve, I also think its unrealistic for a lot of people, thats also about £150+ a month on golf.

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