What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

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What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 09 May 2016, 8:24 am

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Well, the title says it all really. What a pathetic, embarrassing finish to the PRO12 it was for the Welsh regions. I am livid, as a Welsh rugby fan I am bouncing, and it just goes to show how right I am when I talk about the attitudes towards the game that the regions take. What does it matter to the regions that they got beaten on the weekend ? Nothing, that's what, they do not have to worry.

Ospreys knew what they needed to do and the were shamed in their own back yard. If I were a paying customer on Saturday I would have been demanding my money back. Scarlets were the same, they just gave up in the second half, and the less said about Dragons the better. Where was the pride ? 

I live in hope that next season will be better, Welsh domestic rugby is in a dark place at the moment, how any fans of the regions can come on here and defend their teams showing over this season is beyond me. No doubt I will get attacked from every quarter on here by the likes of Risca, Stone motif, mikey dragon, PhillBB, Scarletspiderman, but how can they argue ? It's no wonder that the amount of fans going to watch our regions are not as good as elsewhere, it's because of the crap being served up infront of them week in week out, who would want to keep paying for it ?

But what does it matter, the regions will still get the same funding next year, they will still get the same money from Europe, nothing will change for them, so why should they change ?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:No, PhilBB, I'd argue against that again.  Strength in depth is only proven by how a side attacks a competition or competitions.  No Irish Province could have predicted their 'strength in depth' in advance, when Internationals were rested.  They simply put them out there and made those players feel they were trusted, and those players were expected to do a rigid job and to as it were 'hold the fort' until the big guys returned.

That holds no water as it is quite easy to judge strength in depth. For starters, you can do it from a wage bill.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Actually in my time looking at Pro12 in its many guises, I've noticed periods when Welsh sides actually did excel likewise when their alleged big players were away.  There was a hunger with the 2nd string to go prove themselves and I can remember periods when a few of the Regions did use their rookies to the max and Internationals returned wondering about their spots.

Again, you're confused. There have been times, mostly up until Lewis' 2009 PA kicked in, when Welsh teams could afford strength in depth - hence teams were competitive. It's nothing to do with an abstract non-sensical term like 'hunger' but everything to do with quality.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
And again, in reality, Wales without a shadow of a doubt has a more potent and probably innately skilled playing base, with lots of tradition and history, beneath the level of Regions that Irish Rugby can only dream of.  And I've always willingly gave that honour to Welsh rugby - I think their players from the off have a more natural instinct and reflexes for the game - probably in part helped by that passage of coaching that comes through from the golden ages of Welsh rugby to the present.
So again, I question this notion of strength in depth and question where it should reside - my opinion would be that tradition is with Wales in that regard.

I'd agree with you if this was 1983 and 'talent' was all that was needed to compete, but with the advent of pro rugby all that wishy washy romanticism counts for nothing.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:
I do think though that the RELIANCE on key big name players is the philosophy that lets down the Regions.  Again, this is proven in the comments here over the years.  Welsh fans want to see big name stars in their sides and in the Pro12 in general.  We on the other hand tended to enjoy the periods when the big players were away, it was a chance for us to see what the rookies could do and where the promise of the future was.

In which case, you have little appreciation for the lack of quality that has been put on the pitch in recent seasons.

You can't quite seem to grasp the fundamental issue that the gulf between top Welsh players and those who fill in was massive, much greater than the same gulf in Ireland. That's what Irish teams beat Welsh teams. That's why the Irish rugby follower 'tended to enjoy the periods when the big players were away'.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:50 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No, PhilBB, I'd argue against that again.  Strength in depth is only proven by how a side attacks a competition or competitions.  No Irish Province could have predicted their 'strength in depth' in advance, when Internationals were rested.  They simply put them out there and made those players feel they were trusted, and those players were expected to do a rigid job and to as it were 'hold the fort' until the big guys returned.

That holds no water as it is quite easy to judge strength in depth. For starters, you can do it from a wage bill.

Rubbish. But that's your agenda so you'll stick to it. Where are Toulon this season? Unless of course Saracens have a bigger wage bill, which they keep telling us is not so Wink

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:53 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
And again, in reality, Wales without a shadow of a doubt has a more potent and probably innately skilled playing base, with lots of tradition and history, beneath the level of Regions that Irish Rugby can only dream of.  And I've always willingly gave that honour to Welsh rugby - I think their players from the off have a more natural instinct and reflexes for the game - probably in part helped by that passage of coaching that comes through from the golden ages of Welsh rugby to the present.
So again, I question this notion of strength in depth and question where it should reside - my opinion would be that tradition is with Wales in that regard.

I'd agree with you if this was 1983 and 'talent' was all that was needed to compete, but with the advent of pro rugby all that wishy washy romanticism counts for nothing.

Again, a cold corporate view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits. The Shareholder Cup.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No, PhilBB, I'd argue against that again.  Strength in depth is only proven by how a side attacks a competition or competitions.  No Irish Province could have predicted their 'strength in depth' in advance, when Internationals were rested.  They simply put them out there and made those players feel they were trusted, and those players were expected to do a rigid job and to as it were 'hold the fort' until the big guys returned.

That holds no water as it is quite easy to judge strength in depth. For starters, you can do it from a wage bill.

Rubbish. But that's your agenda so you'll stick to it.   Where are Toulon this season?   Unless of course Saracens have a bigger wage bill, which they keep telling us is not so Wink

For arguments sake I would say you're both correct here. Both stand up as reasons.

I did highlight recently that the Irish teams were better at developing their players which is one of the reasons they have better depth, certainly better than the Welsh regions, where-as the welsh have better academies underneath that. I think that is what you and Phil have been saying.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 1:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
I do think though that the RELIANCE on key big name players is the philosophy that lets down the Regions.  Again, this is proven in the comments here over the years.  Welsh fans want to see big name stars in their sides and in the Pro12 in general.  We on the other hand tended to enjoy the periods when the big players were away, it was a chance for us to see what the rookies could do and where the promise of the future was.

In which case, you have little appreciation for the lack of quality that has been put on the pitch in recent seasons.

You can't quite seem to grasp the fundamental issue that the gulf between top Welsh players and those who fill in was massive, much greater than the same gulf in Ireland. .
I grasp the defeatist lack of faith, yeah. Massive Gulf, my ass, Phil. Massive gulf in coaching possibly that believes they can overcome shortcomings and just get on with trying to win a game a game at a time. But why do that? Welsh rugby again wants to talk about lack of money...again...after it was all allegedly settled with the new WRU man coming to power with a total empathy for Regional rugby and with ideas of where they need to be helped.

Maybe you're just too impatient, Phil? - Maybe the turn is just around the bend but you're too eager to look elsewhere to see its approach?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:It was all allegedly settled with the new WRU man coming to power with a total empathy for Regional rugby and with ideas of where they need to be helped.

Unfortunately he couldn't just come in and tear up all the previous incumbent's agreements. He could take down the framed photos of the previous incumbent, but that doesn't help the regions much.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Rubbish. But that's your agenda so you'll stick to it.   Where are Toulon this season?   Unless of course Saracens have a bigger wage bill, which they keep telling us is not so Wink

Saracens and Toulon don't play in the same league so any comparison to strength in depth would be false.

But it's quite obvious to say that Toulon have greater strength in depth than do Oyonnax, which is why Toulon aren't going to be relegated.

And guess which of the two have the higher wage bill?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Again, a cold corporate view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits.  The Shareholder Cup.

Resents players and champions?

By God, you don't half post some weird, incoherent nonsense.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:05 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
I did highlight recently that the Irish teams were better at developing their players which is one of the reasons they have better depth, certainly better than the Welsh regions, where-as the welsh have better academies underneath that. I think that is what you and Phil have been saying.

If they are better at developing players, where is their u20 strength?

Here's how they did it: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-how-the-irish-provinces-have-hit-a-brick-wall-1.2647086 and how they are going to struggle to do it any longer. It even mentions 'the trickle'

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:08 pm

SecretFly wrote:
I grasp the defeatist lack of faith, yeah.  Massive Gulf, my ass, Phil.  Massive gulf in coaching possibly that believes they can overcome shortcomings and just get on with trying to win a game a game at a time.   But why do that?  Welsh rugby again wants to talk about lack of money...again...after it was all allegedly settled with the new WRU man coming to power with a total empathy for Regional rugby and with ideas of where they need to be helped.

Maybe you're just too impatient, Phil? - Maybe the turn is just around the bend but you're too eager to look elsewhere to see its approach?

If you can't recognise a massive gulf between Gethin Jenkins and Sam Hobbs, or between Lloyd Ashley and Alun Wyn Jones then God help you. Rugby clearly isn't a sport you understand.

How can money have been 'settled' when the 'new WRU man coming to power' is still operating under the old agreement? Yet another non-sensical comment from you.

What you're ignoring here is reality. The Welsh teams have struggled financially to keep their better players so have had a very soft underbelly when the best have been missing. This is again PROVEN this year by the results of the Ospreys.

Here's some stats to underline your error:

(last 3 yrs) Os are W33 D1 L8 for 144 pts in normal P12 matches: 7-2-15 for 41 pts during window.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:09 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Again, a cold corporate view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits.  The Shareholder Cup.

Resents players and champions?

By God, you don't half post some weird, incoherent nonsense.

You always get so fruity with the lingo when heated up with a poker Wink

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:11 pm

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
I did highlight recently that the Irish teams were better at developing their players which is one of the reasons they have better depth, certainly better than the Welsh regions, where-as the welsh have better academies underneath that. I think that is what you and Phil have been saying.

If they are better at developing players, where is their u20 strength?

Here's how they did it: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-how-the-irish-provinces-have-hit-a-brick-wall-1.2647086 and how they are going to struggle to do it any longer. It even mentions 'the trickle'

So they're not better at players?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:11 pm

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Again, a cold corporate view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits.  The Shareholder Cup.

Resents players and champions?

By God, you don't half post some weird, incoherent nonsense.

You always get so fruity with the lingo when heated up with a poker Wink

What does this even mean: "view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits"? It's incoherent.

I really should have learned by now that you're the board drunk, yes?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:12 pm

SecretFly wrote:
So they're not better at players?

Please try again, this time in coherent English.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:13 pm

PhilBB wrote:If you can't recognise a massive gulf between Gethin Jenkins and Sam Hobbs

You leave Sam Hobbs alone! heart

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:13 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
I grasp the defeatist lack of faith, yeah.  Massive Gulf, my ass, Phil.  Massive gulf in coaching possibly that believes they can overcome shortcomings and just get on with trying to win a game a game at a time.   But why do that?  Welsh rugby again wants to talk about lack of money...again...after it was all allegedly settled with the new WRU man coming to power with a total empathy for Regional rugby and with ideas of where they need to be helped.

Maybe you're just too impatient, Phil? - Maybe the turn is just around the bend but you're too eager to look elsewhere to see its approach?

If you can't recognise a massive gulf between Gethin Jenkins and Sam Hobbs, or between Lloyd Ashley and Alun Wyn Jones then God help you. Rugby clearly isn't a sport you understand.

How can money have been 'settled' when the 'new WRU man coming to power' is still operating under the old agreement? Yet another non-sensical comment from you.

What you're ignoring here is reality. The Welsh teams have struggled financially to keep their better players so have had a very soft underbelly when the best have been missing. This is again PROVEN this year by the results of the Ospreys.

Here's some stats to underline your error:

(last 3 yrs) Os are W33 D1 L8 for 144 pts in normal P12 matches: 7-2-15 for 41 pts during window.

I understand plenty. But you keep up the job of trying to ridicule a guy who doesn't get side-tracked by your constant side-tracking methodology. I'll enjoy the show.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:14 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
So they're not better at players?

Please try again, this time in coherent English.

Oh good one!!! Lovely!

Hot cookie temperature now, are we?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:
I understand plenty.  But you keep up the job of trying to ridicule a guy who doesn't get side-tracked by your constant side-tracking methodology.  I'll enjoy the show.

Where's the side tracking?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:18 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Again, a cold corporate view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits.  The Shareholder Cup.

Resents players and champions?

By God, you don't half post some weird, incoherent nonsense.

You always get so fruity with the lingo when heated up with a poker Wink

What does this even mean: "view of rugby that clearly resents players and champions simply more and more money to prop up something called profits"? It's incoherent.

I really should have learned by now that you're the board drunk, yes?

It is incoherent...but then it's been your bouncing baby plaything for as long as I've known you....not mine. You explain it to me.

How long is this new WRU boss, that you all love, going to be tied down by that evil Lewis's agreements????

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:

It is incoherent...but then it's been your bouncing baby plaything for as long as I've known you....not mine.  You explain it to me.  

How long is this new WRU boss, that you all love, going to be tied down by that evil Lewis's agreements????  

How can I explain your gibberish to you? You wrote it.

Many years yet.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
I understand plenty.  But you keep up the job of trying to ridicule a guy who doesn't get side-tracked by your constant side-tracking methodology.  I'll enjoy the show.

Where's the side tracking?

So they are not better at [developing] players? - 'developing' being the word that skipped my fingers as I typed -shame on me   

Are they or aren't they?  Or do they just buy in their academy players for big bucks from conveyor belts in South Africa and New Zealand?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

It is incoherent...but then it's been your bouncing baby plaything for as long as I've known you....not mine.  You explain it to me.  

How long is this new WRU boss, that you all love, going to be tied down by that evil Lewis's agreements????  

How can I explain your gibberish to you? You wrote it.

Many years yet.

So the new Saviour came in to put his feet up and have a snooze for a few years as he waits for Lewis's ghost to leave the building? Easy money! You should be annoyed at such wastage.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:28 pm

SecretFly wrote:
So they are not better at [developing] players? - 'developing' being the word that skipped my fingers as I typed -shame on me   

Are they or aren't they?  Or do they just buy in their academy players for big bucks from conveyor belts in South Africa and New Zealand?

WTF?

Irish teams aren't better than their Welsh rivals at 'developing'. They have, historically, been better at paying enough to keep better players at home.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by munkian on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:45 pm

Tax breaks keep big earners around 'shocker'

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 May 2016, 2:50 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
So they are not better at [developing] players? - 'developing' being the word that skipped my fingers as I typed -shame on me   

Are they or aren't they?  Or do they just buy in their academy players for big bucks from conveyor belts in South Africa and New Zealand?

WTF?

Irish teams aren't better than their Welsh rivals at 'developing'. They have, historically, been better at paying enough to keep better players at home.

Are you a computer program, PhilBB?  
Your comprehension seems to go to schidt when language loosens up and becomes a little more abstract...or when someone forgets to type a word Wink

But back to the topic.  Your reply doesn't explain away the times when 'developing' players are dragged in to cover for those Better players that are away.  And our better players were away more often than Welsh better players, according to many Welsh posters on here.  That's been the topic over the last few hours.  

When and why is one set of developing players better than someone elses's set of developing players?  
If the Welsh can 'develop' just as potently as Irish Provinces, then why the 'massive gulf' between the handful of Big Players and what follows?  

I'm saying that Massive gulf isn't so pronounced in Ireland because we play them and trust them and force them to be better than their natural instincts might suggest they'll ever be.  Does the same happen in Wales? Why should there be such 'massive gulfs' in quality when the stage below Regional would be of a better skill level than the similar step down from Provinces?

Maybe Welsh Regions, out of necessity, will now develop these players more quickly to hit the ground running in Pro12. Maybe that's what the new men at WRU are setting themselves up to assist.


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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 16 May 2016, 6:02 pm

I read that in this RWC season, Leinster have used 56 players. That has to be a credit to Cullen to manage that number of players and still top the League. Some of the test players (Heaslip) have played six games all season - that is some rotation.
Bath have the smallest squad in the AP and Ford has paid for it.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by exile jack on Mon 16 May 2016, 6:03 pm

PhilBB wrote:
exile jack wrote:
If the clubs in the Top14,ProD2 and Aviva are all and will remain financially solvent then the RFU and the FFR will not have to consider paying off any debt and equity financing at club level if corporate debt refinancing is unable to maintain solvency at club level.

Where we differ is on our understanding of the sustainabilty of the current financing of many of the leading French and English clubs and the creativity,however legal,of the accounting that underpins it.

What is becoming clearer in France is that the money necessary to achieve and sustain success is significant and creating a divide between those that can generate that money and those that cannot.Toulon earlier this year were able to field TWO full XV's of non-French internationals.The Montpellier XV on Friday had 6 South Africans,4 of whom were Springboks and 3 of whom were World Cup winners.That level of resource is expensive because it is not abundant and is expensive.But unless you find it as a French club you are unlikely to enjoy success in the Top14 and indeed can increasingly look to season upon season of bottom half of the table and potential relegation.

I don't see any revised global season addressing these issues.We can't even sort out the NH season.

Since when has a Union ever paid off the debts of a privately owned club? I can only think of this happening at Neath. So why are you even mentioning it?

You also seem to be confusing non-French players as being more expensive than French players. Have you seen the JIFF table for this season? It casts serious doubt on your claim on Toulon, for starters.

You then move on to some point about the less rich French clubs not being able to win the Brennnus. What on earth is the relevance of that? The haves win, the haves not don't. That's pro sport.

I'll try and respond to your post as best I can.The internationalisation of the Top14 and its financial and playing consequences has been an issue in French club rugby for several years.Leaving aside the individual club rugby finance problems since 2009,the FFR have taken 3 steps in an attempt to manage the disconnect between France's professional club teams and the international team.The French Government repealed the law known as DIC-whereby 30% of each players salary could be treated as image rights exempt from payroll and social insurance tax.

Additionally,the FFR introduced a salary cap,to very high vocal criticism by the wealthy club owners,and also new rules requiring a minimum % of French players on club rosters-the JIFF(home-grown players).The JIFF must have been registered with the FFR for at least 5 years before turning 21 or have spent 3 seasons in an FFR approved training centre if they are currently under 21.However,these rules do not consider eligibility to play for the national team! The JIFF is seen by many rugby supporters in France as a joke.Perhaps its best example is the Armitage brothers qualified as JIFF because of their tenure in Nice's youth setup,despite them representing England internationally.In contrast,Jerome Thion despite being a native and lifelong resident of France did not qualify as JIFF because he switched from basketball to rugby too late in his youth.Laugh.I should say so.

Happy with my Toulon statement.Any professional sport where the haves always have and the have nots always have not is not a sporting philosophy I find attractive.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 16 May 2016, 9:54 pm

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
I did highlight recently that the Irish teams were better at developing their players which is one of the reasons they have better depth, certainly better than the Welsh regions, where-as the welsh have better academies underneath that. I think that is what you and Phil have been saying.

If they are better at developing players, where is their u20 strength?

Here's how they did it: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-how-the-irish-provinces-have-hit-a-brick-wall-1.2647086 and how they are going to struggle to do it any longer. It even mentions 'the trickle'

I said the Welsh had better academies, and I included U20 rugby in that. If you look at Paddy Jackson though, he was quite the average 10 at U20 level. Ulster have built him up into a competent international. I don't see Ospreys doing that with Sam Davies.

Yes money is also a big factor, hence why I said I believe you both to be correct here.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Tue 17 May 2016, 9:18 am

SecretFly wrote:
But back to the topic.  Your reply doesn't explain away the times when 'developing' players are dragged in to cover for those Better players that are away.  And our better players were away more often than Welsh better players, according to many Welsh posters on here.  That's been the topic over the last few hours.  

When and why is one set of developing players better than someone elses's set of developing players?  
If the Welsh can 'develop' just as potently as Irish Provinces, then why the 'massive gulf' between the handful of Big Players and what follows?  
I'm saying that Massive gulf isn't so pronounced in Ireland because we play them and trust them and force them to be better than their natural instincts might suggest they'll ever be.  Does the same happen in Wales?  Why should there be such 'massive gulfs' in quality when the stage below Regional would be of a better skill level than the similar step down from Provinces?

Maybe Welsh Regions, out of necessity, will now develop these players more quickly to hit the ground running in Pro12.  Maybe that's what the new men at WRU are setting themselves up to assist.


Mate, you're continuing to miss the point. Enormously. So I'll give it one more go:

The Irish salary spend was able to maintain a strong presence of Irish players within Ireland. Not just the internationals, but also the next cabs off the rank. We couldn't do that in Wales, we couldn't keep a strong enough presence of either group of players. That's why the Irish could handle games when the top players were away - because they managed to pay enough to keep their next best set of players. In Wales, we couldn't, so we lost games.

You're also ignoring, or not comprehending, the point that the development structure in Wales has historically been better than that in Ireland. Our u20s have a better record. The problem has been maintaining in Wales the 'just below international standard player' because we couldn't afford to keep them. The Irish could, so the Irish not being able to play their top line players wasn't such a problem.

Please do try to understand the difference between developing players and then being able to pay them when they are developed.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Tue 17 May 2016, 9:46 am

exile jack wrote:
I'll try and respond to your post as best I can.The internationalisation of the Top14 and its financial and playing consequences has been an issue in French club rugby for several years.Leaving aside the individual club rugby finance problems since 2009,the FFR have taken 3 steps in an attempt to manage the disconnect between France's professional club teams and the international team.The French Government repealed the law known as DIC-whereby 30% of each players salary could be treated as image rights exempt from payroll and social insurance tax.

Additionally,the FFR introduced a salary cap,to very high vocal criticism by the wealthy club owners,and also new rules requiring a minimum % of French players on club rosters-the JIFF(home-grown players).The JIFF must have been registered with the FFR for at least 5 years before turning 21 or have spent 3 seasons in an FFR approved training centre if they are currently under 21.However,these rules do not consider eligibility to play for the national team! The JIFF is seen by many rugby supporters in France as a joke.Perhaps its best example is the Armitage brothers qualified as JIFF because of their tenure in Nice's youth setup,despite them representing England internationally.In contrast,Jerome Thion despite being a native and lifelong resident of France did not qualify as JIFF because he switched from basketball to rugby too late in his youth.Laugh.I should say so.

Happy with my Toulon statement.Any professional sport where the haves always have and the have nots always have not is not a sporting philosophy I find attractive.

1. The DIC was equally applied to French nationals as it was to non-French nationals. That change wasn't designed to affect the latter.
2. The salary cap also applies to both French nationals and non-French nationals, so that change wasn't designed to affect the latter.

The final sentence indicates that pro sport isn't for you.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by exile jack on Tue 17 May 2016, 11:15 am

PhilBB wrote:
exile jack wrote:
I'll try and respond to your post as best I can.The internationalisation of the Top14 and its financial and playing consequences has been an issue in French club rugby for several years.Leaving aside the individual club rugby finance problems since 2009,the FFR have taken 3 steps in an attempt to manage the disconnect between France's professional club teams and the international team.The French Government repealed the law known as DIC-whereby 30% of each players salary could be treated as image rights exempt from payroll and social insurance tax.

Additionally,the FFR introduced a salary cap,to very high vocal criticism by the wealthy club owners,and also new rules requiring a minimum % of French players on club rosters-the JIFF(home-grown players).The JIFF must have been registered with the FFR for at least 5 years before turning 21 or have spent 3 seasons in an FFR approved training centre if they are currently under 21.However,these rules do not consider eligibility to play for the national team! The JIFF is seen by many rugby supporters in France as a joke.Perhaps its best example is the Armitage brothers qualified as JIFF because of their tenure in Nice's youth setup,despite them representing England internationally.In contrast,Jerome Thion despite being a native and lifelong resident of France did not qualify as JIFF because he switched from basketball to rugby too late in his youth.Laugh.I should say so.

Happy with my Toulon statement.Any professional sport where the haves always have and the have nots always have not is not a sporting philosophy I find attractive.

1. The DIC was equally applied to French nationals as it was to non-French nationals. That change wasn't designed to affect the latter.
2. The salary cap also applies to both French nationals and non-French nationals, so that change wasn't designed to affect the latter.

The final sentence indicates that pro sport isn't for you.

The DIC was repealed to prevent avoidance of France's high payroll tax and social insurance tax.The problem was particularly acute in rugby and followed several financial crises in French professional club rugby from 2008 onwards. Your second point implies you think all professional rugby players in France earn the same.They don't.On your final point any sport where fair opportunity for success is denied because of either legal or illegal means is not a sport.Neither is a sport a sport where financial resources are so skewed in favour of the few to the clear detriment to the many.Money is of course no guarantee of success as some English and French clubs have discovered this season.A good season next year for the Pro12 sides and the weeping and wailing across the Channel and the Severn will be loud.

Don't feel the need to reply.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Tue 17 May 2016, 11:18 am

exile jack wrote:
The DIC was repealed to prevent avoidance of France's high payroll tax and social insurance tax.The problem was particularly acute in rugby and followed several financial crises in French professional club rugby from 2008 onwards. Your second point implies you think all professional rugby players in France earn the same.They don't.On your final point any sport where fair opportunity for success is denied because of either legal or illegal means is not a sport.Neither is a sport a sport where financial resources are so skewed in favour of the few to the clear detriment to the many.Money is of course no guarantee of success as some English and French clubs have discovered this season.A good season next year for the Pro12 sides and the weeping and wailing across the Channel and the Severn will be loud.

Don't feel the need to reply.

The DIC was nothing to do with non-French players, which is what you previously claimed.

Of course all players don't earn the same. Nobody would think that they do.

Poor posting from you. Very poor.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by exile jack on Tue 17 May 2016, 11:35 am

PhilBB wrote:
exile jack wrote:
The DIC was repealed to prevent avoidance of France's high payroll tax and social insurance tax.The problem was particularly acute in rugby and followed several financial crises in French professional club rugby from 2008 onwards. Your second point implies you think all professional rugby players in France earn the same.They don't.On your final point any sport where fair opportunity for success is denied because of either legal or illegal means is not a sport.Neither is a sport a sport where financial resources are so skewed in favour of the few to the clear detriment to the many.Money is of course no guarantee of success as some English and French clubs have discovered this season.A good season next year for the Pro12 sides and the weeping and wailing across the Channel and the Severn will be loud.

Don't feel the need to reply.

The DIC was nothing to do with non-French players, which is what you previously claimed.

Of course all players don't earn the same. Nobody would think that they do.

Poor posting from you. Very poor.

I'm sorry that my posting disappointed you.I'll have a final try.The DIC was repealed because the French Government took the view following representations from the FFR in particular that the facility was contributing significantly to the reckless spending on players by several French clubs.It was already clear that some clubs were using the 30% 'saved' to pay inflated wages.It also led to the running joke in France about how many underpants contracts could certain players have.The internationalisation debate in France was already in full swing.Thank you for confirming that not all players earn a same.

In future,I'll try and match your posting standard but perhaps you could consider stopping dancing on the head of your pin.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Tue 17 May 2016, 11:38 am

exile jack wrote:
I'm sorry that my posting disappointed you.I'll have a final try.The DIC was repealed because the French Government took the view following representations from the FFR in particular that the facility was contributing significantly to the reckless spending on players by several French clubs.It was already clear that some clubs were using the 30% 'saved' to pay inflated wages.It also led to the running joke in France about how many underpants contracts could certain players have.The internationalisation debate in France was already in full swing.Thank you for confirming that not all players earn a same.

In future,I'll try and match your posting standard but perhaps you could consider stopping dancing on the head of your pin.

Well, you could improve by not aligning the changing of the image rights law as a way of controlling the number of non-French players playing in France. That'll be a start.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Thu 19 May 2016, 7:57 am

Hey, Andy Dowellais, what valley is Bedwas in?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 19 May 2016, 9:05 am

PhilBB wrote:Hey, Andy Dowellais, what valley is Bedwas in?


Maesycwmmer. OK


In the Gwent Valleys. OK

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Thu 19 May 2016, 11:39 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Hey, Andy Dowellais, what valley is Bedwas in?


Maesycwmmer. OK


In the Gwent Valleys. OK

Cheers, I didn't know that.

I thought that it was in Caerphilly, not Gwent.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 19 May 2016, 11:41 am

I thought they were both separate towns?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Thu 19 May 2016, 11:46 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought they were both separate towns?

Caerphilly Borough.

Andy Dowellais thinks that I have a problem with 'the Valleys' and that I shouldn't because the Thomas family made some cash selling pies from a place in Bedwas.

Yes, doesn't quite stack up, does it?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 19 May 2016, 11:54 am

It might be in Caerphilly, but they're in the 'Gwent Region' rugby catchment area.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:05 pm

Do you class Pontypridd as a valley town Phil ?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:07 pm

Here you go Phil, educate yourself:-


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedwas

http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/1254


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Do you class Pontypridd as a valley town Phil ?

I'm told the Valley starts beyond Pontypridd, so I don't see how it could be.

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Here you go Phil, educate yourself:-


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedwas

Hang on, are you using Wikipedia for educational purposes?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Do you class Pontypridd as a valley town Phil ?

I'm told the Valley starts beyond Pontypridd, so I don't see how it could be.


Well it was the home of valleys rugby.

You ask anybody from Pontypridd and they will tell you they are from the valleys. 

Why am I even arguing with you about this. I give up.

picard

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Here you go Phil, educate yourself:-


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedwas

Hang on, are you using Wikipedia for educational purposes?

Isn't that usually a euphemism? censored

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

Post by PhilBB on Thu 19 May 2016, 12:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Well it was the home of valleys rugby.

You ask anybody from Pontypridd and they will tell you they are from the valleys. 

Why am I even arguing with you about this. I give up.

picard

Oh, I know what they'll say as I don't live too far away. But they may also say that Sardis deserves professional rugby and they'd be wrong about that, too.

Doesn't the sign for the 'Valleys' start beyond Pontypridd? Factually?

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Re: What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

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