Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

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Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 1:02 pm

Muifield members have returned their ballot papers on whether or not to allow female members and have chosen to keep a ban on female members in place(Edit: 64% voted in favour of allowing female members. 2% short of 2/3 majority needed).  There was news that a letter had been circulated by some prominent members urging their fellow rich white guys (RWG's) to think very carefully about how bad allowing women into the club would be.  This not so behind the scenes lobbying as worked and the RWG's can continue to enjoy their vaginaless boozy lunches and whatever else they get up to.

In a somewhat confusing but swift response the R&A has announced that Muirfield is no longer considered an open rota course, which is great news and exactly what Muirfield deserves, but rather oddly Troon which is also male only is holding the event this year.  The R&A responded to criticisms about Troon holding the open by saying Troon's membership policy was a matter for the club.  The R&A policy on the open being held at male only clubs seems be that they will only condemn the practice if this comes at no inconvenience to the R&A.

One argument we will hear over the coming days is how bad this is for the game and that golfs reputation continues to be associated with old farts.  This is probably true but the real issue is what this says about he fight for equality and the progression of the social justice movement.  You have to think about who just voted to keep an extremely sexist policy.  The RWG members of Muirfield are prominent business people in the area and famously many of them are some of Scotland's most senior legal people.  Essentially the ruling class have decided that equality isn't for them.

This is clearly a worrying decision for anyone concerned with the image of golf but really this is a terrible day for anyone wishing for equality in general.  What will be interesting from a golfing perspective is how the fans of the game respond, I hope to see a major backlash against sexism in the game but I fear this is rather hopeful.


(EDIT: 36% of the membership holding the club to ransom.  Any sympathy for those in the 64% or should they have done more to ensure the vote went the right way?)


Last edited by McLaren on Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 1:12 pm

I really wish you'd stop being this ridiculous benevolent sexist Mac. You try far too hard, and I don't hear women asking for your one man crusade.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by George1507 on Thu May 19, 2016 1:32 pm

64% in favour of women members, 36% against.

It was close. Another couple of years and it'll be 68% v 32%.

In fact that's probably about 12 members making the difference between yes and no. The older members are in the no camp, so a hard winter and they'll be gone.


Last edited by George1507 on Thu May 19, 2016 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu May 19, 2016 1:42 pm

Could have been a decent thread, but Mac over-eggs it as usual. It's a private club, the R&A have said 'No Open then'. Is this illegal? If not, move along; nothing to see here...

I sometimes deliberately go out for a drink with some all-male friends. Shock! Horror! Maybe we should invite some women along in order that we're gender-neutral?
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 1:43 pm

Where have I over egged it?


PS: when you say could have been a decent thread are you saying that because of something in the OP you refuse to discuss or debate this issue?
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Plunky on Thu May 19, 2016 3:12 pm

I have no problem with private "men only" or "women only" golf clubs. But there's an important difference between them. Men only clubs were set up with the specific purpose of excluding women. Women only clubs were largely formed so that women would have some place to play. Many "mixed" clubs had restrictions on when women could play ( weekdays only) so working women had no place to go. While those restrictions are now thankfully a thing of the past, there are still a lot of mixed courses where women may feel unwelcome and/or uncomfortable because of the way they are treated (either in terms of course set-up or attitude of the overwhelmingly male members). Allowing women to apply for membership and making them welcome are not necessarily the same thing !

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 3:41 pm

McLaren wrote:Where have I over egged it?


PS: when you say could have been a decent thread are you saying that because of something in the OP you refuse to discuss or debate this issue?

It's your fake benevolence Mac, you appear to have this Corbynesque "right on" attitude to absolutely everything, not because you appear to believe it, but because you feel you must appear to be making a stand about it, rather than remaining the "silent majority" about it, As if you, and you alone are the voice that can champion it.

You probably don't feel any stronger than anyone else, but no one else goes down the "disgusted of Turnbridge Wells" route the way you do.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 4:11 pm

Super,

Given the response from yourself and Navy it would seem I feel more strongly about it than at least two other people.

As I said at the end of the opening post it will be interesting to see how golf fans and the golf community respond to this issue. Your response seems to be to take issue with someone else having a response. It would have been more interesting to hear what you actually think about the matter?
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by beninho on Thu May 19, 2016 4:26 pm

Am I overly bothered about all men or all women clubs. Not really, its unlikely that I would join a club be it all Men in the foreseeable future anyway!

Should a restrictive club hold what is the pinnacle of golf, The Open, then that is a definite no.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 4:28 pm

How do you know Mac, you're only more VOCAL about it. That doesn't mean you feel any more strongly about it at all.

I've always said that there shouldn't be such things as single sex clubs of any sort. How can you feel any more "strongly" than that?

My issue is not the sexism issue, but why you feel you are the sole voice in righting every perceived wrong in the game of golf and that no one else can possibly care as much as you do.


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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu May 19, 2016 4:37 pm

McLaren wrote:...PS: when you say could have been a decent thread are you saying that because of something in the OP you refuse to discuss or debate this issue?
OK. Fine by me.

Plunky's point re. the raison d'etre for the traditional male clubs might be a good one, although what's wrong with so doing? Who's to say that any women-only clubs don't also have an element of that mentality re. men?

My main issue isn't with the smaller, local clubs doing that sort of thing - I can vote with my feet i.e. go join one that's a bit more egalitarian. I do have a problem with the Open being played at places like Muirfield while they're clearly behind the times re. women being treated on an equal footing. That's fine; Muirfield and its members can do whatever they do without any public kudos from hosting the Open anymore.
I would also suggest that such famous clubs, on such prime golfing real estate, ought to have a more open mind on letting women play under same rules as men. They were founded when it was 'easy' to create such courses in an environment when it was fine to disbar women from being members. S_R suggested women can play Muirfield - under the same regulations as the men? Or as some sort of subservient species? If all non-members can access it under the same rules, I'm not sure there's much mileage in ranting at them; hosting of major golfing tournaments aside.
I'm sure Muirfield charge a ridiculous green fee in any case. It may be a very good course, but it's not THAT special - I certainly wouldn't bother just because it's Muirfield. Plenty of other outstanding courses that anyone can get on for a good deal.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 4:41 pm

Super

It is you that makes the claims about me righting every wrong, I have never claimed that. I am a SJW and so clearly these issues matter to me and don't see a problem with that.


I will address your point on the other thread here.

You maintain that there is no difference between male only and female only golf clubs and that the current stacking of privilege has no baring on the issue.

In order to move this debate on would you explain to me in simple terms the features of all male and female clubs which are the same. And then if possible offer up some distinctions between the two.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu May 19, 2016 4:55 pm

McLaren wrote:...In order to move this debate on would you explain to me in simple terms the features of all male and female clubs which are the same.   And then if possible offer up some distinctions between the two.
Christ on a crutch! It's you that's making the argument. You state, with explanations as to the thinking/evidence behind your opinions etc, why they're different and should be treated as such.

All we've suggested is if it's sauce for the goose, it's sauce for the gander. Somehow and for some weird reason, you don't think that's the way it should be. I'm not sure we're going to get very far with this discussion....
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 4:58 pm

Ok Mac.

Lundin Ladies, No male members allowed. Males can pay and play.

Muirfield, Male only members, Females as with other males, permitted to play as guests.

As ever, I just don't see the point in having single sex clubs. Why would you argue against one, but let the other off? If you are being consistent in your argument, and not harking back to who subjugated who first, you should be against all female clubs too.

Why aren't you on your high horse about the Women's Institute?

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu May 19, 2016 5:09 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

You have missed the point.  Under your analogy women would be allowed to set up a golf club which perpetuates a known bias and discrimination both within golf and the wider society.

Although your last example almost does hit on the point "Women can discriminate against men, just because for centuries the opposite has been accepted? Nope.".  Nope they can't because it isn't possible.  If it isn't possible then how can you compare the formally all male R&a and a female only club?

This isn't about letting any group do something immoral or illegal to make up for past errors but accepting that an all female club does not reflect a current systemic sexism in our society.

I would love to see the data that shows the UK does not currently have systemic or institutional sexism? Go on blow my assertions out the water with all the science you can chuck at me. Something makes me think it will be you who has to twist data to suit a personal bias.
Brought this nonsense here, rather than continue to mire Kwini's thread in utter b0ll0x. Please. Think.

I couldn't give a stuff about your 'reflection in society' cobblers. That has nothing to do with anything here. You're wilfully misinterpreting; that's the only answer. It's about not allowing one group to do the identical thing that's been outlawed for other groups. It's that simple. That's equality Mac - thought that's what you advocate? Enough of this rubbish - I'm done with it. You have my thoughts on Muirfield somewhere above.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 5:11 pm

Exactly, it doesn't matter the reason why a single sex club exists, who cares whether it's due to subjugation or on response to subjugation, there is no place for single sex clubs at all. Not sure why Mac can't agree with that.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 5:14 pm

Well done super.

Your argument boils down to single sex clubs are single sex.  Therefore they are the same.  

(Also women are allowed to play as guests on muirfield but are barred from many areas of the clubhouse)

Navy

I have stated on numerous threads that all male clubs enjoy a lot more privilege within the game.  They can hold opens, contribute to the rules making process, determine funding for development of the game, alter shared course set up and probably much more.  I wonder if TOC has even seen changes made on the suggestion of the ladies club?

(Many of the members of Troon, Muirfield and the other male only clubs are also members of the R&A, which only deepens the problem)  

I know you won't accept this but sexism does still exist in the UK today and I don't think you can ignore the impact of institutions like male only golf clubs to this problem.  So another reason that the male only clubs differ is that they are propagating an issue that is already bad enough.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 5:20 pm

It must also be added that I have no idea if female only clubs should be allowed, you would have to ask women whether or not they want them.

This debate is about whether or not it is fair to compare both types of single sex club. (Assuming we don't have non-binary clubs of course)
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 5:20 pm

Mac, stop being a simplistic dolt. I have said repeatedly now, I do not care about the reasons as to why a single sex club exists, the difference between these clubs is IRRELEVANT. It's all water under the bridge, and history has NO BEARING on how a club behaves NOW.

Therefore, there is no reason why ANY club should be single sex.  How can you possibly argue with that?

Muirfield has been taken off the rota BECAUSE they will not ADMIT WOMEN AS MEMBERS. There is no other issue here other than that.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 5:25 pm

Super

Your insistence that sexism is "history" is hampering your reasoning on this issue.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu May 19, 2016 5:28 pm

Mac, You really are being retarded here.
Yes, there is sexism in the world, dry your bloody eyes.

THat has no bearing as to why there should be single sex clubs in 2016 AT ALL.

Where have I said sexism is history? I've not even implied it.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Davie on Thu May 19, 2016 8:27 pm

Single sex clubs only need one locker room

Oooh have we hit on something here? I wonder if the single sex clubs have a higher proportion of gays - maybe Mac and his right on sensibilities would be more inclined to that idea! Safer environments for homosexuals!

<insert a smilie of your own choice here>

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu May 19, 2016 9:43 pm

Super

It could be the case, and probably is, that there should be no single sex clubs. But why does that mean the two are comparable?

For example in one simple model the all female clubs exist because women were forced due to bans on joining the main club to set up their own club. Here the two clubs exist for the same reason (male sexism) and could be done away with using the same solution but one isn't comparable to the other. The female club does not exist due to female sexism towards men.

I see the argument over whether or not any single sex clubs should exist as separate from the claim made on here that the two are comparable.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Fri May 20, 2016 8:45 am

Why are you so obsessed as to whether they are comparable or not? Does it even matter?

Yes, we've been through why female clubs exist ad nauseum. Who gives a toss?

What matters is that it is 2016, and that the prevalence of single sex clubs of either gender is not something which should be decided by the club members, but something which should be eradicated by a statute.

Can a man join a female club? No
Can a woman join a male club? No

The reason why they exist is not the point, the fact that clubs exist which discriminate on gender is the issue.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Fri May 20, 2016 10:43 am

Super I am obsessed with whether or not they are comparable because they are not, and yet you and Navy keep making comments suggesting a simple comparison can be made.  For Example in your last post you say quite flippantly,

"Can a man join a female club? No
Can a woman join a male club? No"

Implying they are quite simply the same with no underlying differences.  You then follow this up by saying that both discriminate based on gender, which is a claim you would have to back up.  I don't think the female clubs are discriminating if you use the definition of "discrimination" used in legislation and when talking about unfair treatment of people.




On another note I see Peter Alliss has waded into the debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/19/peter-alliss-women-play-muirfield-marry-member

His point about the other Partner getting to play for free doesn't really make sense as an argument to keep the club single sex.  If women were allowed to join the wife could join and her partner could be the one getting on as a guest for free.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Fri May 20, 2016 11:20 am

They are comparable in the sense that NEITHER practice equality. The reason for this inequality is an entirely different matter.

Of course there's a difference, the whole effing point is that there is NO PLACE for single sex clubs regardless of the reasons they exist in the first place.

Your benevolent sexism is as excruciating as your constant SJW stance. Plank.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Fri May 20, 2016 12:19 pm

Tee Shot at Muirfield:



Super

In very simple terms both all male and all female clubs do not treat the sex of potential members equally. Under a very basic and low usage definition of inequality both practice "inequality".

Would you not agree however that the most common usage of inequality is tied up in ideas of discrimination and abuse of privilege and not merely to mean something is not equal?
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by JAS on Sat May 21, 2016 6:21 am

So taking the politics and prejudices out and looking at it from s purely practical level...if I were a female living in East Lothian and wanted to join a golf club...would Muirfield even be on my radar as a potential choice....no it wouldn't, simple as that.

Brining politics back into it what breathtaking arrogance by the R&A. They refused to admit women for hundreds of years and now after a very short time of being "inclusive" they've gone all "holier than thou" and taken an all male tournament off an all male institution.

Make no mistake I do think Muirfield's decision marks them out as bigoted old dinosaurs but to take them off the rota? First thing is...will they care? They won't lose their course for a week every 10 years or so...bet they're gutted!!

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Sat May 21, 2016 9:25 am

McLaren wrote:
Tee Shot at Muirfield:



Super

In very simple terms both all male and all female clubs do not treat the sex of potential members equally.  Under a very basic and low usage definition of inequality both practice "inequality".

Would you not agree however that the most common usage of inequality is tied up in ideas of discrimination and abuse of privilege and not merely to mean something is not equal?

Mac, I've already told you plenty times I don't care for the reasons behind a single sex club existing. I'm not sure why you do.
For your information, there are 20 Male only Clubs in Scotland, there are 28 Female ones. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by George1507 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:01 am

JAS wrote:

Make no mistake I do think Muirfield's decision marks them out as bigoted old dinosaurs but to take them off the rota? First thing is...will they care? They won't lose their course for a week every 10 years or so...bet they're gutted!!

Well, it seems that the bigoted old dinosaurs did care. Remove the Open and the resistance melted away in no time.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Roller_Coaster on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:09 am

They changed the question. Large letters "Do you want the Open to return?" Options "YES*" or "NO"

in tiny letters at the bottom of the ballot paper *ladies will be allowed to join

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:34 am

The R&A should not have reinstated HCEG until they actually got some female members. It is hardly the strongest gesture of equality to just in theory say you accept a certain group. You should have female members in practice.

We don't want this to turn into a AGNC situation where you invite a token Condie Rice type character.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:36 am

Maybe they can invite Susan Boyle and Lorraine Kelly to be members.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:38 am

Or Nicola Sturgon?
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:43 am

Steady Mac, it's a bit early for Muirfield to permit lesbians.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:38 am

McLaren wrote:The R&A should not have reinstated HCEG until they actually got some female members.  It is hardly the strongest gesture of equality to just in theory say you accept a certain group.  You should have female members in practice.

We don't want this to turn into a AGNC situation where you invite a token Condie Rice type character.
Good point. Would agree with this.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by puligny on Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:39 pm

Is it back on the list yet, or has it simply met one of the 'conditions'?

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:46 pm

Report I read quotes Slumbers as dreaming:
"We can confirm that Muirfield will become a venue for The Open once again. Muirfield has a long and important history of hosting The Open, and with today's announcement that will continue."

So: Muirfield appears to be back on the rota, but no return date announced. Hopefully it'll get 2022 but agree w/Mac that they need to announce some women members.


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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Plunky on Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:00 pm

Are they actually going to invite a few women, or have they simply changed the rules so that any women who do apply for membership won't be automatically rejected ?  I read somewhere that women applicants will go to the bottom of the current rather lengthy waiting list.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by MontysMerkin on Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:40 pm

Think they're going with a 'halfway house' and inviting Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner....
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by EmmDee57 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:33 pm

http://theclub.media/latest-stuff/2017/3/14/muirfield-votes-to-allow-women-to-maybe-join-includes-swear-words


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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Roller_Coaster on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:58 pm

clap

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:40 pm

Sounds like Rory isn't fooled by the sham vote to let women into Muirfield.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/39286496


The more you think about it the more ridiculous it gets that the R and A backtracked so quickly and feebly.




I like the end where he states he won't be having many cups of tea with the members. It was really strange and disappointing that he played with Trump, but this goes some way to restoring his reputation.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:54 am

Have you ever played a men only club Mac?

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by George1507 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:33 am

Somehow I think there's misunderstanding of the situation in the media, and among a lot of the public on this.

There are single sex clubs - like St Regulus (women only) that share (usually) municipal courses, like St Andrews. Anyone can still play on that course, through one of the other clubs or as a visitor.

There are single sex clubs that own their own course (like Royal Burgess), but allow spouses and visitors to play.

There are single sex clubs that don't allow anyone of the opposite sex to play.

It's the last category that irritates people and really needs to change I think. Allowing spouses and visitors of the opposite sex is pretty anachronistic, but I think they'll change soon enough.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:40 am

George1507 wrote:Somehow I think there's misunderstanding of the situation in the media, and among a lot of the public on this.

There are single sex clubs - like St Regulus (women only) that share (usually) municipal courses, like St Andrews. Anyone can still play on that course, through one of the other clubs or as a visitor.

There are single sex clubs that own their own course (like Royal Burgess), but allow spouses and visitors to play.

There are single sex clubs that don't allow anyone of the opposite sex to play.

It's the last category that irritates people and really needs to change I think. Allowing spouses and visitors of the opposite sex is pretty anachronistic, but I think they'll change soon enough.

You're right, other than the R&A (although this is pretty much just a token gesture) there are no mixed clubs in St.Andrews.
I'm required to be a member of a club in St.Andrews to hold a links ticket, but I have no choice but to join a club which is single sex.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by GPB on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:31 pm

Rory's outrage at Muirfield seems a little hypocritical, considering that he is in bed with sponsors from the UAE.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:34 pm

GPB wrote:Rory's outrage at Muirfield seems a little hypocritical, considering that he is in bed with sponsors from the UAE.

Fair point, like Bono and Lily Allen I wish sports people would just keep out of politics. They just end up looking silly.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:38 pm

Rory's outrage looks like his PR firm have had a word in his ear, easy way to deflect from the Trump story.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:49 pm

I don't think I am as bothered about hypocrisy as others (or maybe as much as I should be). If Rory is wrong on one issue it is fallacious to say he must be wrong on another.

As diggers said above he may have been primed to go off on HCEG but it is more on social justice than we usually get in golf.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

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