Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

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Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu 19 May 2016, 1:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Muifield members have returned their ballot papers on whether or not to allow female members and have chosen to keep a ban on female members in place(Edit: 64% voted in favour of allowing female members. 2% short of 2/3 majority needed).  There was news that a letter had been circulated by some prominent members urging their fellow rich white guys (RWG's) to think very carefully about how bad allowing women into the club would be.  This not so behind the scenes lobbying as worked and the RWG's can continue to enjoy their vaginaless boozy lunches and whatever else they get up to.

In a somewhat confusing but swift response the R&A has announced that Muirfield is no longer considered an open rota course, which is great news and exactly what Muirfield deserves, but rather oddly Troon which is also male only is holding the event this year.  The R&A responded to criticisms about Troon holding the open by saying Troon's membership policy was a matter for the club.  The R&A policy on the open being held at male only clubs seems be that they will only condemn the practice if this comes at no inconvenience to the R&A.

One argument we will hear over the coming days is how bad this is for the game and that golfs reputation continues to be associated with old farts.  This is probably true but the real issue is what this says about he fight for equality and the progression of the social justice movement.  You have to think about who just voted to keep an extremely sexist policy.  The RWG members of Muirfield are prominent business people in the area and famously many of them are some of Scotland's most senior legal people.  Essentially the ruling class have decided that equality isn't for them.

This is clearly a worrying decision for anyone concerned with the image of golf but really this is a terrible day for anyone wishing for equality in general.  What will be interesting from a golfing perspective is how the fans of the game respond, I hope to see a major backlash against sexism in the game but I fear this is rather hopeful.


(EDIT: 36% of the membership holding the club to ransom.  Any sympathy for those in the 64% or should they have done more to ensure the vote went the right way?)


Last edited by McLaren on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 2:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 2:09 pm

Mac, What else has he been wrong on?


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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by McLaren on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 2:14 pm

Super

Someone mentioned that Rory might have dealings with Emirate companies, who probably don't treat women equally. If Rory was totally committed to equality you could argue as GPB did that he should ditch those sponsors.

It would be great if he did ditch those sponsors and made it clear why, but just becuase he hasn't doesn't mean he didn't give the right message about HCEG.
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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 2:24 pm

I agree it's rather hypocritical considering his relationship with UAE and their dreadful treatment of women.

However, McIlroy is sponsored by companies in the UAE, that doesn't mean that those companies subjugate women.

Being sponsored by a British company, doesn't mean you are condoning the Government of the UK does it?, so I don't see how being sponsored by a company in the UAE means you are condoning the way the country treats women. Unless you can prove that Jumeraih actually does discriminate.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 3:50 pm

You can choose to look it that way Super, or you can take the personal approach where you decide what you feel sits within your own moral compass. Not everyone will make the same decisions.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 3:58 pm

I simply think it's a bit of a leap to think that a company from the UAE will automatically support and endorse the government of the UAE.

For all we know, McIlroys sponsors could be perfect in their equality policy? Has anyone checked?
McIlroy isn't sponsored by the government, he's sponsored by companies from that country.

If you were sponsored by The Guardian it wouldn't mean you supported the British Government would it?

How many people check the source of their petrol/diesel before they fill up? Do you know for certain it hasn't come from UAE or Saudi Arabia? Of course you don't, so until we know that McIlroy's sponsorship is either state owned or discriminates against women, then any link is a little bit petty and pretty tenuous.


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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:03 pm

There is a pretty basic difference between buying petrol you don't know the source of and choosing to be sponsored and therefore represent a company. Odd comparison.
But the decision is as I said entirely personal, you can make a case either way. There is no right or wrong in that sense.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:17 pm

The point is Diggers is that we don't know the policy of the company, we only know what country they are from. That says nothing about how the company operates and it is a bit of a leap to think that just because the UAE has a poor record of equality, that the companies McIlroy is sponsored by are the same.

Like I said, if you were sponsored by The Guardian, you wouldn't be endorsing, or even remotely associating yourself with the Tory Government.
As far as we know, all they have in common is they are from the same country. Same boat McIlroy is in.



Until we know that the companies McIlroy is sponsored by are disreputable, then it's a non starter.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:23 pm

No we don't know exactly, therefore we choose to make our own decisions based on what we feel we are comfortable with. So again, it's a different decision for different people.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:29 pm

Isn't it being a bit prejudiced to assume that a company might be disreputable before it's proven to be so though, just because they come from the UAE? Is that not borderline xenophobia and guilt by association?

If you were considering employing someone from the UAE and you turned them down because they MIGHT be sexist, before you found out if they were, how would that make you look? Up on a charge of discrimination I would think.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:38 pm

Yes, but I'm not employing them in this instance, that's a completely different scenario. I (as Rory, the already fantastically wealthy golfer) am choosing whether I feel that I want to represent a particular company after taking more money, that I'll probably never have time to spend, from them. He's under no obligation at all to do so, therefore it's a personal choice. You clearly have a view one way, I another. I can accept that but I find it strange you can't even begin to see why some people might view it my way.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:44 pm

Look, if McIlroy has not done his homework on his sponsors  and they turn out to be disreputable then fine, give him pelters for being a hypocrite.

Until that time, give him the benefit of the doubt.

I can't really see your objection based on the information you have.

Are you castigating him for having a sponsor because he's already wealthy enough, or is it because they MIGHT not be how you would like them to be? How rich he is is irrelevant. That's got nothing to do with it.

Of course, he's under no obligation to take sponsorship, but why shouldn't he?, if he's deemed them to be a reputable company through due diligence?

There's no suggestion he's representing a company which discriminates against women just because they are from UAE.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:48 pm

I'm not criticising him, I'm trying to tell you what I would do in his position.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:49 pm

So you wouldn't take sponsorship if you were him because you are rich enough?
Fair enough, as long as it's not because you're jumping to conclusions on the ethical issues.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:51 pm

I'd make my own ethical decision.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:54 pm

Fine if you have based it on something other than speculation such as facts.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 4:56 pm

Are you trying to suggest you've never done that?

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:00 pm

It depends. I don't buy from certain shop because of ethical issues that I know about, but I wouldn't make an ethical decision on a company for which I didn't know their ethical policy. Why would I?

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:05 pm

We usually form most opinions on speculation or opinion based around what we feel about certain things. This is what I would do in this case.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:09 pm

Would you not prefer to have a genuine reason for it though? Surely if you were being asked to be sponsored you'd actually do some research and decide on the basis of that whether you thought them a company you saw fit to represent?

Just going on how you "feel" or "speculation" could make you look a bit foolish at that level of exposure.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:19 pm

Your taking a view of non association, that's up to you. I wouldn't see why I would have to even take even the slightest risk. There are plenty of companies I could choose to represent. That's my choice.
Bit of a pointless debate anyway so I'll leave it at that, as I said purely what I would choose to do.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:22 pm

I don't understand why you think you'd be taking a risk. Doing due diligence would remove the risk, or if it revealed something undesirable, you decline the sponsorship.

Seems pretty straightforward.


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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by Diggers on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:26 pm

One persons due dillgence isn't the same as anothers. What's acceptable to one person may not be to another.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by super_realist on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:30 pm

Diggers wrote:One persons due dillgence isn't the same as anothers. What's acceptable to one person may not be to another.

I'm more surprised by the implied guilt you are placing on a company Diggers. Doesn't sound like you. I thought you were a bit more fair minded and fact based than to listen to idle gossip and settle for a "feeling" in order to make a decision.

I agree though, that it's a hypothetical situation for us, I simply think whoever made the comparison between McIlroy and the sexism of his sponsors wasn't made with proper reasoning but a stereotype.

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

Post by raycastleunited on Fri 17 Mar 2017, 9:22 am

Diggers wrote:We usually form most opinions on speculation or opinion based around what the Daily Mail tells us to feel about certain things. This is what I would do in this case.

Is this better?

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Re: Murifield Keeps (and has now lifted) Ban on Female Members

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