England's Summer Tours

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 May 2016, 1:54 pm

First team to Australia

Fixtures
11th June v Australia, Brisbane 11.00 BST
18th June v Australia, Melbourne 11:00
25th June v Australia, Sydney 11:00

All games on Sky Sports 1


Squad

Forwards:
D Cole (Leicester), L Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), J Clifford (Harlequins), E Genge (Leicester), J George (Saracens), T Harrison (Northampton), D Hartley (c) (Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), P Hill (Northampton), M Itoje (Saracens), G Kruis (Saracens), J Launchbury (Wasps), C Lawes (Northampton), M Mullan (Wasps), C Robshaw (Harlequins), K Sinckler (Harlequins), B Vunipola (Saracens), M Vunipola (Saracens).

Backs:
M Brown (Harlequins), D Care (Harlequins), E Daly (Wasps), O Farrell (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens), J Joseph (Bath), J Nowell (Exeter), H Slade (Exeter), B Te'o (Worcester), A Watson (Bath), M Yarde (Harlequins), B Youngs (Leicester). Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)




Saxons in South Africa

Fixtures
Friday 10th June v South Africa A, Bloemfontein 18:10 BST
Friday 17th June v South Africa A, George 18:10 BST

Cannot find these games on TV, will update if anything announced.


Squad

Forwards:
Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons), Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), James Craig (Northampton Saints), Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Dave Attwood (Bath), Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester), James Chisholm (Harlequins), Sam Jones (Wasps).

Backs:
Dan Robson (Wasps), Michael Young (Newcastle Falcons), Oliver Devoto (Bath), Danny Cipriani (Wasps), Christian Wade (Wasps), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Tompkins (Saracens), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Alex Lewington (London Irish), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks).


Last edited by LondonTiger on Wed 08 Jun 2016, 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 May 2016, 1:55 pm

Other thread about to collapse under it's own weight.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by BamBam on Wed 25 May 2016, 3:04 pm

Excellent work LT

Any idea when the side for Sunday will be announced? I assume the usual 2 days before?

BamBam

Posts : 15758
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 25 May 2016, 4:12 pm

So...residency Wink only joking

At least from those squads we should be able to put out some very good teams.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 May 2016, 5:13 pm

Does anyone know if this version of SA are their official 2nd team?

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18884
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by king_carlos on Wed 25 May 2016, 5:30 pm

It would make sense if the Saxons tour is Ali Hepher's audition for an assistant role with the first team squad. It's a strong squad that should fit well to his style of game plan. It also has a few names such as Hepburn, Lees, Ewers and Armand that he's very familiar with.

1.Hepburn
2.Taylor
3.Brookes
4.Lees
5.Attwood
6.Ewers
7.Kvesic
8.Armand

9.Robson
10.Cips

11.Roko
12.Hill
13.James
14.Wade
15.Haley

16.McGuigan
17.Harrison
18.Cooper-Wooley
19.Ewels
20.Chisholm/Jones
21.Young
22.Devoto
23.Lewington

Something such as that would be very interesting to see.

king_carlos

Posts : 4199
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Work toilet

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by BamBam on Wed 25 May 2016, 5:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does anyone know if this version of SA are their official 2nd team?

Think its always been the u20s for them, this is the first time I've heard of this side playing a game

BamBam

Posts : 15758
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by king_carlos on Wed 25 May 2016, 5:58 pm

As an aside I have to really feel for Saints front rowers with decision for these two squads.

Brookes missing out on the EPS, whilst understandable given his fitness issues, is a shock given he has the potential to be our most destructive scrummager and another heavy carrier.

Haywood and Waller missing out on the Saxons is really harsh though IMO. Haywood has been consistently strong for Saints and often viewed as the better option to Hartley given his lack of match fitness. Alex Waller is an excellent LH who solid at set piece in the tackle and over the ball.

It's a real surprise for the latter two to miss out entirely. It must be especially difficult for them to take given that Denman was pulling on an England jersey this time last year!

king_carlos

Posts : 4199
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Work toilet

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Poorfour on Wed 25 May 2016, 6:57 pm

I hadn't registered that. Haywood and Waller missing out really is a surprise.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 4238
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 May 2016, 9:34 pm

In some ways the players not going on tour is pretty impressive and an indicator of the potential depth:

Waller, Auterac, Haywood, Thacker, Youngs, Thomas, Barrow, kitchener, Slater (robinson for GF), Wray, Wallace, Fraser, Beaumont - a decent pack can be made from those.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by yappysnap on Wed 25 May 2016, 10:28 pm

And Dave Ward

yappysnap

Posts : 11588
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 31
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by nlpnlp on Wed 25 May 2016, 10:53 pm

I think Alex Waller has come off second best with a few referees this year at scrum time, admittedly unfairly at times, which has counted against him.  He is good over the ball but doesn't stand out as a ball carrier as Mako Vunipola does.

Mikey Haywood seems a solid club player, but I am not sure that I would put him in the same class as George or Hartley at International level.

Dave Ward, good club player but can't throw a ball straight so has no chance of ever being an international.  Harsh but true.

As to some of the other names, if Kitchener ever gets close to an England shirt god help us, can't catch the ball and carries it with the menace of a powder puff.  Is Wray really an international player - he can't get a start for his club side.  Do you not think Thacker would get eaten alive at International level by all the 350 kgs plus front rows?  A decent club player but nothing more surely?

Auterac has potential but is still a couple of years off.  Thomas possibly.  Slater possibly.  Fraser unlucky after his recent performances for Sarries.

I think there is a big step up between club and International level, both in size and precision.  As a hooker you have to hit near 100% of your lineouts, which Youngs and Ward will never do.  Likewise you have to be able to scrimmage against big men - the need to hook the ball is probably a weakness as you destabilise the front row.  18 st + hookers like George and Hartley who can scrummage like props is the order of the day now.
Beaumont would get eaten alive at international level with his upright running style. As Vunipola has shown it is all about power now to get through the 'in your face' aggressive defences.  Bambi runners like Beaumont will get smashed.  I think it is clear than Eddie Jones is going for the hard and nasty forwards who do the basics well with a bit of attitude.  What I don't think we will see is the club player selection of Lancaster - Botha, Dowson, Johnston, etc.

nlpnlp

Posts : 311
Join date : 2011-06-14

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by DaveM on Thu 26 May 2016, 12:12 am

Harsh on Beaumont, and EJ clearly doesn't share your assessment.

DaveM

Posts : 1912
Join date : 2011-06-20

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 26 May 2016, 1:21 am

LondonTiger wrote:In some ways the players not going on tour is pretty impressive and an indicator of the potential depth.
Conversations about England always start like that. Since there just aren't enough games to give everyone a chance, while also building continuity, then we are always destined to end up saying "Why on earth player x isn't in the squad is beyond me" and "It beggars belief that we keep selecting player y when he is obviously pants, and we have much better alternatives".

Rugby Fan

Posts : 5819
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Icu on Thu 26 May 2016, 6:36 am

Just wondering if any of you have seen much of Leroy Houston? He's been playing for one of the English sides. Possibly Bath?

Interested to know how he's viewed by the locals. He's been named in the Wallaby squad and the word is he'll start at 8 against England. He's apparently heading back to play for Queensland after the June series.


Here's the Wallabies 39-man training squad for 2016 England Series:

Allan Ala’alatoa (Brumbies)
Rory Arnold (Brumbies)
Sam Carter (Brumbies)
Adam Coleman (Western Force)
Scott Fardy (Brumbies)
Israel Folau (NSW Waratahs)
Bernard Foley (NSW Waratahs)
Nick Frisby (Queensland Reds)
Liam Gill (Queensland Reds)
James Hanson (Melbourne Rebels)
Mike Harris (Melbourne Rebels)
Dane Haylett-Petty (Western Force)
Greg Holmes (Queensland Reds)
Michael Hooper (NSW Waratahs)
Rob Horne (NSW Waratahs)
James Horwill (Harlequins)
Leroy Houston (Queensland Reds)
Karmichael Hunt (Queensland Reds)
Sekope Kepu (Bordeaux)
Samu Kerevi (Queensland Reds)
Tevita Kuridrani (Brumbies)
Christian Leali’ifano (Brumbies)
Ben McCalman (Western Force)
Sean McMahon (Melbourne Rebels)
Stephen Moore (c) (Brumbies)
Luke Morahan (Western Force)
Dean Mumm (NSW Waratahs)
Eto Nabuli (Queensland Reds)
Taqele Naiyaravoro (NSW Waratahs)
Wycliff Palu (NSW Waratahs)
Nick Phipps (NSW Waratahs)
David Pocock (Brumbies)
Tatafu Polota-Nau (NSW Waratahs)
Joe Powell (Brumbies)
Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds)
Scott Sio (Brumbies)
Will Skelton (NSW Waratahs)
James Slipper (Queensland Reds)
Toby Smith (Melbourne Rebels)

Icu

Posts : 127
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Avoca Beach, NSW

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 May 2016, 8:09 am

nlpnlp wrote:Said a pile of stuff.

Over 60 players are on tour, I think all of those I named can count themselves unlucky tobbe excluded from both, and are all good players. Should have thrown in Mark Wilson too.

Not saying they would thrive at top flight internationals, but hell how many caps do Tim Swinson and Josh Furno have?

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by yappysnap on Thu 26 May 2016, 8:39 am

Houston is pretty good, very mobile but prone to mistakes. Never thought of him as an international but he could be good for the wallabies. He was certainly better for Bath then some of their current international players.

yappysnap

Posts : 11588
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 31
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 May 2016, 9:55 am

Houston was very good for Bath - but only ever looked like a club player imo.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 May 2016, 11:50 am

LondonTiger wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:Said a pile of stuff.

Over 60 players are on tour, I think all of those I named can count themselves unlucky tobbe excluded from both, and are all good players. Should have thrown in Mark Wilson too.

Not saying they would thrive at top flight internationals, but hell how many caps do Tim Swinson and Josh Furno have?

The fact he's not in any squad with so many going out this summer suggests it wont ever happen now.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 May 2016, 11:51 am

LondonTiger wrote:In some ways the players not going on tour is pretty impressive and an indicator of the potential depth:

Waller, Auterac, Haywood, Thacker, Youngs, Thomas, Barrow, kitchener, Slater (robinson for GF), Wray, Wallace, Fraser, Beaumont  - a decent pack can be made from those.

Everyone will know who he is after he captains the next Lions series win Very Happy

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 May 2016, 11:54 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
The fact he's not in any squad with so many going out this summer suggests it wont ever happen now.

It does. That he is not selected though does show:

a) Just how many players are around and available via the AP
b) Eddie's predilection for players with a SH flavour.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by doctor_grey on Thu 26 May 2016, 11:55 am

Does anyone know how much players are paid to:
1. go on tour, even if not selected to play in any match
2. how much players are paid, even if they play only 5 minutes off the bench
3. how much Saxons players are paid compared to the full England squad players

Just wondering.

doctor_grey

Posts : 8157
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Poorfour on Thu 26 May 2016, 12:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
b) Eddie's predilection for players with a SH flavour.

Eddie's shown that he can build a team to compete with Europe's best. He's been very clear that he sees that as only a stepping stone to having a team that can compete with the world's best, and that he plans to do it by fighting fire with fire.

This board goes on about a gnarly pack, but I don't think that's the direction of travel at all. It will be physically aggressive and streetwise, but the sort of players he's bringing in - Kruis, Itoje, Hill, Clifford, Sinckler, Harrison, eventually Underhill and Beaumont - are marked by their skill, intelligence and mobility as much as their physicality. Several of these guys can handle the ball and read space better than many club backs, and a couple of them can really shift.

For instance, Eddie could have picked Will Collier - who gave Mako a very hard time in the scrum at Wembley (only a timely substitution saved him from a yellow) - over Sinckler, but has chosen the Sinck's all-round game over Collier's more traditional scrummaging prowess. Either that, or he just wants to see Sinck run at the Aussie backs like a human bowling ball.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 4238
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 26 May 2016, 12:40 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:In some ways the players not going on tour is pretty impressive and an indicator of the potential depth:

Waller, Auterac, Haywood, Thacker, Youngs, Thomas, Barrow, kitchener, Slater (robinson for GF), Wray, Wallace, Fraser, Beaumont  - a decent pack can be made from those.

Everyone will know who he is after he captains the next Lions series win Very Happy

Who, GF Harry Mallinder?

By then he will be a household name throughout the NH and have a reputation as an destroyer of SH sides



WELL-PAST-IT

Posts : 2335
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by doctor_grey on Thu 26 May 2016, 5:06 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:In some ways the players not going on tour is pretty impressive and an indicator of the potential depth:

Waller, Auterac, Haywood, Thacker, Youngs, Thomas, Barrow, kitchener, Slater (robinson for GF), Wray, Wallace, Fraser, Beaumont  - a decent pack can be made from those.

Everyone will know who he is after he captains the next Lions series win Very Happy

Who, GF Harry Mallinder?

By then he will be a household name throughout the NH and have a reputation as an destroyer of SH sides
Mate, our northern friend GF is obviously a bit confused. I think we should humour him for the moment. He normally seems a reasonable and rational chap so I presume he will get past this as soon as the sun comes out up there..............

doctor_grey

Posts : 8157
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by beshocked on Fri 27 May 2016, 9:26 am

nlpnlp wrote:I think Alex Waller has come off second best with a few referees this year at scrum time, admittedly unfairly at times, which has counted against him.  He is good over the ball but doesn't stand out as a ball carrier as Mako Vunipola does.

Mikey Haywood seems a solid club player, but I am not sure that I would put him in the same class as George or Hartley at International level.

Dave Ward, good club player but can't throw a ball straight so has no chance of ever being an international.  Harsh but true.

As to some of the other names, if Kitchener ever gets close to an England shirt god help us, can't catch the ball and carries it with the menace of a powder puff.  Is Wray really an international player - he can't get a start for his club side.  Do you not think Thacker would get eaten alive at International level by all the 350 kgs plus front rows?  A decent club player but nothing more surely?

Auterac has potential but is still a couple of years off.  Thomas possibly.  Slater possibly.  Fraser unlucky after his recent performances for Sarries.

I think there is a big step up between club and International level, both in size and precision.  As a hooker you have to hit near 100% of your lineouts, which Youngs and Ward will never do.  Likewise you have to be able to scrimmage against big men - the need to hook the ball is probably a weakness as you destabilise the front row.  18 st + hookers like George and Hartley who can scrummage like props is the order of the day now.
Beaumont would get eaten alive at international level with his upright running style. As Vunipola has shown it is all about power now to get through the 'in your face' aggressive defences.  Bambi runners like Beaumont will get smashed.  I think it is clear than Eddie Jones is going for the hard and nasty forwards who do the basics well with a bit of attitude.  What I don't think we will see is the club player selection of Lancaster - Botha, Dowson, Johnston, etc.

Agree with most of this . OK Depth does not mean strength.

England have a large player pool but in certain positions, there aren't players stepping up.

Also agree that hard aggression is the name of the game. Plus players need that size.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 27 May 2016, 10:01 am

doctor_grey wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:In some ways the players not going on tour is pretty impressive and an indicator of the potential depth:

Waller, Auterac, Haywood, Thacker, Youngs, Thomas, Barrow, kitchener, Slater (robinson for GF), Wray, Wallace, Fraser, Beaumont  - a decent pack can be made from those.

Everyone will know who he is after he captains the next Lions series win Very Happy

Who, GF Harry Mallinder?

By then he will be a household name throughout the NH and have a reputation as an destroyer of SH sides
Mate, our northern friend GF is obviously a bit confused.  I think we should humour him for the moment.  He normally seems a reasonable and rational chap so I presume he will get past this as soon as the sun comes out up there..............

Ah yes sorry chaps I think we are getting confused.

When I refer to Sean Robinson most people realise im talking about the next Lions captain Very Happy Wink

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 27 May 2016, 4:12 pm

There may yet be a separate Australian tour thread but we ought to take a look at what we are likely to see.

First thing to note, is that there is a lot of interest in Australia about this tour. England will always attract some attention but Eddie Jones is a major additional draw card, while our Grand Slam status gives the Wallabies bragging rights over the rest of the Northern Hemisphere if they win.

Australian Super Rugby teams have done poorly this season but they have recently started to show signs of life. The Waratahs have just comprehensively beaten the Chiefs with Folau looking great again. There was some talk that England might find Australian rugby in turmoil, but that doesn't seem likely.

Australia think they have our number in the scrum. No England supporter ever wants to think that's possible but we didn't look great at the World Cup, and that's why they believe they have us.

It's probably no bad thing Marler is not on tour because he would have become a target, just as he did at the World Cup.

Australia are also convinced their back row will see us off. Pocock is an incredible player and the feeling is that England don't play a fetcher, so they'll keep stealing ball from us all day.

Australians always assume their backs will be superior to ours, so add a dominant scrum and dominant back row to that assessment, and you can see why they don't expect to lose.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 5819
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 27 May 2016, 9:21 pm

I agree I think the Aussies will be very confident going into this series and following the World Cup game I can understand why.

However there have been a couple of changes already since Jones took over...the obvious one being he managed to get England over the line in the 6n...which hasn't been done in quite a while.

I also think the poor scrum in the World Cup was down to a lot of factors, but I think its been strengthened already, and whilst I don't doubt the Aussie scrum is strong and not the weakness it used to be...Englands will be back to competitive and far from a pushover. Our lineout is a huge strength and will really give them a nightmare.

Finally the breakdown...again, technically I would say they are quite a bit ahead with certain individuals...however I'm not sure Jones will be concerned. He wont be too concerned about  conceding a few turnovers in the right areas. And his current tactics (possibly until we have some experts as Jones requires) will be simply to smash the breakdown with massive physicality and try to negate the Aussie technical superiority. Whether that works...well I guess that's what we will all wait to see.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Poorfour on Fri 27 May 2016, 9:35 pm

I worry about Pocock, though. When fully fit his workrate is a long way ahead of anybody else's and that makes a huge difference to what Australia can achieve at the breakdown.

Eddie may look to use more of an offloading game to try to nullify that in attack. In defence, the rush defence will need to be extra sharp to stop the Aussies getting the ball wide.

I agree that the scrum contest will be very different this time around, and not just because Marler won't be there. The pack is heavier and less easily caught out by the Aussie linedance tactic. And I hope that refs have looked at the videos and wised up to how it was done.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 4238
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 27 May 2016, 9:40 pm

I agree about Pocock mate. Ive actually just said that on the other post comparing robshaw.
Everyone mentions Robshaw work rate...what they probably didn't realise from the Stats is that Pocock works harder than him...

But we cant focus to much on that and need to focus on how to negate that at the moment.

On a slightly different note...Mr Kvesic. What is it that divides opinons of him. Some (myself included) think he is heads and tails the best 7. Others think hes nowhere near.

What do people see as his strength and weaknesses??

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Poorfour on Fri 27 May 2016, 10:35 pm

I never really saw the fuss about Kvesic, but equally I have never really understood why England coaches seem unwilling to give him more of a run.

The most likely answers may be that his carrying technique is vulnerable at international level or that he hasn't been able to lift his workrate to the higher pace at international level. Or possibly he has been given coaching points but hasn't been able to address them.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 4238
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 27 May 2016, 11:12 pm

Yeah valid thoughts I guess. I rate him highly though and think he could be very good at this level. I guess we'll see how he goes in SA. If he doesn't show up...he may drop right down the pecking order.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 28 May 2016, 1:28 am

At the moment, I don't think Australia are particularly worried about any of our players. Usually, they are wary about one or two, mostly in the pack.

Billy Vunipola has only played Australia once, and that was back in 2013, so he has yet to leave his mark. They will be curious about Itoje but there's always a feeling in the south that we over-hype players, so they won't believe it until they see it.

The selection of Ben Te'o is being seen as an indication of how average the England squad is likely to be. Here's Paul Cully of the Sydney Morning Herald:
And that goes to the heart of why the Wallabies will not fear Te'o. Every time an Australian player opposes a Kiwi Super Rugby side, they are up against an inside-centre better than Te'o: ones with the same physical attributes and far broader skill bases.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 5819
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 28 May 2016, 8:19 am

I don't think I've hidden my utter disgust at Teo being selected. However his selection is not one for razzmatazz or to cause fear..its one to do a specific basic job and to allow the 9, 10 and 13 to hopefully create the magic.

My problem is that Sam Hill could do that job and he's young and English.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21332
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by DaveM on Sat 28 May 2016, 11:50 am

I think the England pack is starting to shape up well. I'm expecting Itoje to be future world player of the year (not that I can remember if such an award exists), for instance.

Whether Australia should be worried out us this summer is probably largely dependent on whether we put out backs in any sort of form. But players like Farrell, Slade, Nowell and Watson will earn respect.

DaveM

Posts : 1912
Join date : 2011-06-20

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 28 May 2016, 2:04 pm

DaveM wrote:I think the England pack is starting to shape up well.
This is the key for me. I'm not convinced we're back to having a reliable scrum yet. I don't mean one which is going to go and monster all-comers. I'd settle for one which doesn't suddenly fall foul of the officials and give away a string of penalties. We looked all right in the Six Nations but this tour will test our front row depth.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 5819
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by king_carlos on Sat 28 May 2016, 2:46 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
DaveM wrote:I think the England pack is starting to shape up well.
This is the key for me. I'm not convinced we're back to having a reliable scrum yet. I don't mean one which is going to go and monster all-comers. I'd settle for one which doesn't suddenly fall foul of the officials and give away a string of penalties. We looked all right in the Six Nations but this tour will test our front row depth.

Sadly with the current variations in scrum 'interpretations' I'm afraid that's very unlikely to happen. The best way to ensure you don't get penalised in the lottery is to be moving forwards with both sides of the scrum square. Even then all the opposition have to do is bore in on one side to force a dramatic wheel and the ref will occasionally ping the side moving forward seemingly for little reason other than not wanting to penalise the under pressure side too many times.

king_carlos

Posts : 4199
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Work toilet

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by brennomac on Sun 29 May 2016, 3:06 pm

Well I hope for Teo's sake Eddie Jones wasn't watching the Pro12 final yesterday when he was dire and clueless, Bundee Aki totally outplayed him. Teo has played wel for Leinster most of this season, but against Connacht he was totally out of his depth. Another Sam Burgess?

brennomac

Posts : 824
Join date : 2011-02-11
Location : Dublin 8 - that bastion or rugby

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by DaveM on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:49 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
DaveM wrote:I think the England pack is starting to shape up well.
This is the key for me. I'm not convinced we're back to having a reliable scrum yet. I don't mean one which is going to go and monster all-comers. I'd settle for one which doesn't suddenly fall foul of the officials and give away a string of penalties. We looked all right in the Six Nations but this tour will test our front row depth.

Rowntree had just been there too long. A fresh voices have already made a big difference. I can't see us being dominated in the scrum this summer.

DaveM

Posts : 1912
Join date : 2011-06-20

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by yappysnap on Mon 30 May 2016, 8:05 am

brennomac wrote:Well I hope for Teo's sake Eddie Jones wasn't watching the Pro12 final yesterday when he was dire and clueless, Bundee Aki totally outplayed him. Teo has played wel for Leinster most of this season, but against Connacht he was totally out of his depth.  Another Sam Burgess?


Honestly I'll be gutted if he gets a cap to be honest

yappysnap

Posts : 11588
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 31
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:26 pm

Talk about Pocock- when the opposition have a fetcher that good, don't let them fetch. Make them tackle. Offload the ball. Approach the BD on masse at speed. Physically bully him. It's simple. You don't have to play the game on the opposition's terms
ChequeredJersey
ChequeredJersey

Posts : 18707
Join date : 2011-12-23
Age : 30
Location : London, UK

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Alex_Germany on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:40 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Talk about Pocock- when the opposition have a fetcher that good, don't let them fetch. Make them tackle. Offload the ball. Approach the BD on masse at speed. Physically bully him. It's simple. You don't have to play the game on the opposition's terms

Billy Vunipola is quite good at tying up an entire opposition back row, as he did when Wales stopped him getting lots of metres in the 6 Nations.

Alex_Germany

Posts : 505
Join date : 2012-01-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:54 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:At the moment, I don't think Australia are particularly worried about any of our players. Usually, they are wary about one or two, mostly in the pack.

Billy Vunipola has only played Australia once, and that was back in 2013, so he has yet to leave his mark. They will be curious about Itoje but there's always a feeling in the south that we over-hype players, so they won't believe it until they see it.

The selection of  Ben Te'o is being seen as an indication of how average the England squad is likely to be. Here's Paul Cully of the Sydney Morning Herald:
And that goes to the heart of why the Wallabies will not fear Te'o. Every time an Australian player opposes a Kiwi Super Rugby side, they are up against an inside-centre better than Te'o: ones with the same physical attributes and far broader skill bases.

I hope they underestimate us. That's a quick way to end up losing
ChequeredJersey
ChequeredJersey

Posts : 18707
Join date : 2011-12-23
Age : 30
Location : London, UK

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by kingelderfield on Mon 30 May 2016, 5:35 pm

Just a thought on the coaching. Lancaster took us to Africa in 2012 and was presented with a fantastic learning and development opportunity, one that he roundly failed to accept and so for me the dye was cast.

Now apart from Tuilagi, May and Beaumont who are all injured, Marler and Ashton who passed, and Morgan who hasn't been selected, basically everyone will be on tour and will be subject to the coaches scrutiny.

The point is will EJ be able to juggle the puzzle and sift the very best combinations of extracted wheat......(you're losing me Ed.)

Ok the thing is will EJ learn all the possible lessons from both of these tours?

Will he be able to choose between youth and experience, or player A or player B in combination with C D E & F?

And most of all will he develop and promote a winning style of play that will take us all the way?

For my money he's certainly the best coach we've had since Woodward, and timing wise, both for him and us things appear to have fallen into place (this is certainly his last chance to win a world cup and we do appear to have a reasonable pool of talent to select from).

So here's hoping for some proper 'learning and development'.

Its just a shame its the seasons end and players are predominantly shagged out!

kingelderfield

Posts : 2298
Join date : 2011-08-27

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by doctor_grey on Mon 30 May 2016, 6:41 pm

kingelderfield wrote:Just a thought on the coaching. Lancaster took us to Africa in 2012 and was presented with a fantastic learning and development opportunity, one that he roundly failed to accept and so for me the dye was cast.

Now apart from Tuilagi, May and Beaumont who are all injured, Marler and Ashton who passed, and Morgan who hasn't been selected, basically everyone will be on tour and will be subject to the coaches scrutiny.

The point is will EJ be able to juggle the puzzle and sift the very best combinations of extracted wheat......(you're losing me Ed.)

Ok the thing is will EJ learn all the possible lessons from both of these tours?

Will he be able to choose between youth and experience, or player A or player B in combination with C D E & F?

And most of all will he develop and promote a winning style of play that will take us all the way?

For my money he's certainly the best coach we've had since Woodward, and timing wise, both for him and us things appear to have fallen into place (this is certainly his last chance to win a world cup and we do appear to have a reasonable pool of talent to select from).

So here's hoping for some proper 'learning and development'.

Its just a shame its the seasons end and players are predominantly shagged out!
You think one of the reasons Eddie is bringing a lot of youth is the overall fatigue of the older players?

doctor_grey

Posts : 8157
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by kingelderfield on Mon 30 May 2016, 8:10 pm

I'd imagine so especially given its a 3 test tour. I'm actually expecting players to also come across from the Saxons for injury and fatigue.

What I'm really hoping for are sensible and intelligent selections. I can live with a 3 zip loss as long as we give a credible account of ourselves and most of all we don't run anyone into the ground. We really could do without long term injuries.

It goes without saying I'd love us to take it 3/0 2/1, but Ozy have all the cards; home advantage, balanced season (relatively rested players) as well as an excellent coach and some half decent players. So I am realistic about the possible outcomes.

kingelderfield

Posts : 2298
Join date : 2011-08-27

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by bedfordwelsh on Mon 30 May 2016, 8:13 pm

I honestly think England will get at least one test win.
bedfordwelsh
bedfordwelsh
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 9962
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 51

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by beshocked on Tue 31 May 2016, 9:31 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree about Pocock mate. Ive actually just said that on the other post comparing robshaw.
Everyone mentions Robshaw work rate...what they probably didn't realise from the Stats is that Pocock works harder than him...

But we cant focus to much on that and need to focus on how to negate that at the moment.

On a slightly different note...Mr Kvesic. What is it that divides opinons of him. Some (myself included) think he is heads and tails the best 7. Others think hes nowhere near.

What do people see as his strength and weaknesses??

Just don't see Matt Ksevic as particularly powerful. His workrate isn't as high as some of the other players. Nice turnover count but I think it's his carrying that lets him down.

What can Ksevic do that other players can't?

Itoje actually made more turnovers per match than Ksevic did and Itoje is a 2nd row. Ksevic only topped the AP turnover stat because Itoje was away with England.


Will be interesting to see what Eddie Jones' pack looks like. I would probably pick:

1.Mako
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Itoje
5.Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Clifford
8.Billy





beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 31 May 2016, 9:46 am

Lots of talk that Itoje may move to 6 to accommodate Launchbury. Do not like it myself, too similar to Lancaster selecting players out of position just so he can have the best players on the pitch.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21581
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's Summer Tours Empty Re: England's Summer Tours

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum