South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

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Post by George Carlin on Fri 03 Jun 2016, 12:49 pm

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South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 2 Sa10        South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 2 Irelan10
SOUTH AFRICA v IRELAND
11 June 2016
17:00 SAST (UTC+02)
DHL Newlands, Cape Town

Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

22 Played 22
16 Won 5
1 Drawn 1
5 Lost 16
422 Points 277

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 29 – 15 to Ireland

10 November 2012 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 12 – 16 to South Africa

6 November 2010 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 21 – 23 to South Africa

28 November 2009 - Croke Park, Dublin: 15 – 10 to Ireland

11 November 2006 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 32 – 15 to Ireland

13 November 2004 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 17 – 12 to Ireland

19 June 2004 - Newlands, Cape Town: 26 – 17 to South Africa

C. Teams

SOUTH AFRICA 
South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 2 Al_cot10
15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi 17 Trevor Nyakane 18 Julian Redelinghuys 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit 20 Warren Whiteley 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies 23 Jesse Kriel

IRELAND
South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 2 Joe-sc10
J Payne; A Trimble, R Henshaw, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, M Ross; I Henderson, D Toner; CJ Stander, J Murphy, J Heaslip

Replacements: S Cronin, F Bealham, T Furlong, U Dillane, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, C Gilroy.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sun 12 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by SecretFly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 2:09 pm

eirebilly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Nah, billy.  Madigan had his utility hat on.

But Jackson will miss the bus (at least until another International coach comes in) if he doesn't take this tour now by the horns.  He doesn't have to personally take charge of one, two or three wins - I'll be too busy looking at others to do their part in helping the cause there - but he does need to seal the idea that here is a 10 doing his part fully - at highest International level.  I think he has it in him.  Look forward to it.  He might even have more of a youthful mind to kick Murray up the behind to get a faster delivery placed his way.  

I think that is a little much there Fly. Jackson will take some time to get comfortable at International level so too judge him based on 3 matches against a very good team is a bit unfair. I would have higher expectations of Jackson had Schmidt given him game time during the 6N.

Should he not perform too a very high standard then that will look more bad on Schmidt than on himself due to his lack of game time at International level.

It's not a little much, billy.  The here is now.  He's not a kid any more.  He's a grown man with ambition and plans for his future.  He probably feels his future has been stalled by a coach that doesn't fully believe in him yet.

He has now been given an opportunity to prove himself, he hasn't been dropped into something he's not ready for.  He wouldn't see it that way and the coaches can't afford to see it that way - or intimate to him that's the way it is.

Rugby is a tough game for everyone involved.  Coaches get it in the neck from fans and media, players in bad form get it in the neck from fans and media.  Players then in the limelight, representing their country - they will have expectations placed on their shoulders too.  There is no dry-run at International.  The three games are there and Paddy has to take as many of them as he gets.

You're giving him too many 'outs' that he'd frown on himself.

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Post by eirebilly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 2:22 pm

I am not giving him ways out, I am saying that Schmidt has failed in developing him to International level by not giving him his deserved shots earlier than this.

I believe that Jackson (if selected) will play very well but I am not having extremely high expectations of him due to Schmidt's failure.

After all that, I actually expect Schmidt to select Madigan at 10, at least for the first and second games.
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Post by SecretFly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 2:44 pm

You do?

So you're planning on us winning our one and only first game with Madigan at the helm??? Wink

Oh dear.... bye bye Paddy without even getting that run out. Joe was right all along, Madser is the best option so Whistle

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Post by eirebilly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 2:57 pm

I do think that is how things will unfold Fly. Ireland under Schmidt are pretty predictable Very Happy
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Post by SecretFly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 3:16 pm

I'm closing down this now...I'm on my way to a barbeque Yahoo

To hell with rugby for now and hello to some nice cool beers and some burned black steaks (well the cook is usually quite selfish with the fork and never knows when enough is enough)...but still edible for a carnivore like myself.

See you next week lads.

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Post by Notch on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 3:22 pm

I can not ever remember a situation where we have used the Six Nations to develop players for a Summer Tour game. The point of the tours and November internationals is the eyes of the Union is at least partially to develop players for the Six Nations. The IRFUs benchmark for success is the Six Nations, particularly the home games. Thats what keeps the interest up in the general public and thats what keeps the lights on.

Also- one of the first things Schmidt did was give Jackson an opportunity to start against Samoa, and he actively suggested he wanted Jackson to put pressure on Sexton for his place (Sexton had just moved overseas). He obviously deemed him to be behind Sexton eventually. He then had another opportunity in the World Cup warm-ups against Wales which he didn't really take in a pretty lukewarm performance. Jackson has grown a lot as a player since then and has especially improved his kicking at goal. I would have preferred him to Madigan any day of the week, but he has been given opportunities in the past under both Kidney and Schmidt to put a marker down in the battle for the 10 shirt. He wasn't ready then but this is another opportunity for him now and I think e might be ready. But he wouldn't want anyone saying its someone else's fault if he doesn't take it. It's up to him to leave Schmidt with no choice but to pick him more.
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Post by eirebilly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 3:38 pm

I did not say that the 6N should be used to develop players for summer tours, maybe taking that a little too literally? I am saying that Jackson was the form 10 in Ireland and that he should have been Sexton's back up instead of Madigan, the fact that he wasn't did nothing to aid his development at 10 for Ireland. That is most definitely Schmidt's fault.
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Post by Guest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 4:21 pm

I agree with billy. Schmidt should have given Jackson a game during the 6N's, rather than hanging unto Madigan for his ability to cover different positions. Not that he offered quality cover in those positions, and not that we didn't have enough cover at 12. Was Madigan actually used in any position other than 10?
Now we have Jackson being dropped cold into games against SA, in SA, without having started a game, or even played from the bench. It's poor player management, and sadly predictable.
Jackson should start the games over Madigan though. Madigan is unlikely to be wearing a green shirt again once these Tests are over, while Jackson is the future.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 8:56 pm

SecretFly wrote:Nah, billy.  Madigan had his utility hat on.

But Jackson will miss the bus (at least until another International coach comes in) if he doesn't take this tour now by the horns.  He doesn't have to personally take charge of one, two or three wins - I'll be too busy looking at others to do their part in helping the cause there - but he does need to seal the idea that here is a 10 doing his part fully - at highest International level.  I think he has it in him.  Look forward to it.  He might even have more of a youthful mind to kick Murray up the behind to get a faster delivery placed his way.  Cool
Sexton does quite a bit more than sexy slinky kicks behind the opposition or those f**king raparounds - he gets stuck in to defence when needed too.  Often that's the part that captures my attention even more.  He doesn't categorise his role - he's there to play the 80...moans, groans, whines and all Wink

I agree that Jackson needs to take this test by the horns, but why doesn't that equally apply to the likes of Madigan who is given chance after chance after chance? The Six Nations was a perfect opportunity to select Jackson. Madigan didn't even play 12 at all as far as I can recall.

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Post by Notch on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 9:49 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Nah, billy.  Madigan had his utility hat on.

But Jackson will miss the bus (at least until another International coach comes in) if he doesn't take this tour now by the horns.  He doesn't have to personally take charge of one, two or three wins - I'll be too busy looking at others to do their part in helping the cause there - but he does need to seal the idea that here is a 10 doing his part fully - at highest International level.  I think he has it in him.  Look forward to it.  He might even have more of a youthful mind to kick Murray up the behind to get a faster delivery placed his way.  Cool
Sexton does quite a bit more than sexy slinky kicks behind the opposition or those f**king raparounds - he gets stuck in to defence when needed too.  Often that's the part that captures my attention even more.  He doesn't categorise his role - he's there to play the 80...moans, groans, whines and all Wink

I agree that Jackson needs to take this test by the horns, but why doesn't that equally apply to the likes of Madigan who is given chance after chance after chance? The Six Nations was a perfect opportunity to select Jackson. Madigan didn't even play 12 at all as far as I can recall.

I think it definitely does apply. Madigan who got chance after chance, past tense- got dropped for this tour. He didn't take those chances in the end. He never was able to be first choice for Leinster and he will never be first choice for Ireland at 10, he may not be involved after this tour is over depending on injuries. He's only there because of an injury in the first place and the sharp eyed amongst you will have spotted Schmidt name checking Olding amongst the options at 10- he looks set to inherit the utility back role on the bench Madigan has occupied... It's the fate of Madigan in the RWC we want Jackson to avoid!

Still, saying the utility argument is bunk because he never came on at centre is a bit like saying your car insurance is useless because you've never been in a crash. I would have taken the risk, went with Jackson. Think the upside was worth it. But understand the call.
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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 10:25 pm

He was dropped because he signed with a foreign team, in accordance with the IRFU policies. Had he still been with Ireland he would still have been involved in the squad.

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Post by Marshes on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:53 am

Long break from the forum while away on holiday, had to watch the Connacht Leinster game four hours after it took place to find a place showing it in New York. Worth it for the result though! NYPD must have had several calls about mad screaming in an Irish Pub on 34th street Yahoo

In regards to this series, I think as people said this should have been an opportunity to test some new faces out, however it is only injuries that have forced the hand to bring in Healy, Gilroy, and O Halloran. I know rankings are at stake and we would be replacing some experienced hands, but their is no better time between now and the net six nations to test some new players. As it happened, injuries forced Joe's hand, so I am delighted Healy and TOH are getting their chance, and also Gilroy, who has been consistently a brilliant finisher for the last three seasons.

In regards to Jackson/Madigan, I'm hopeful that Joe will have the succession plan in mind and reward Jackson's good form. I'm also hopeful one of the flyers of Healy/Gilroy/TOH will get their chance in the first test.

If it is Jackson, I imagine Joe will go with Ulster combinations to help support him, so we could see Marshall and Payne in the centres with Henshaw at full back.

Also, might be Whest tinted glasses, but would love to see Dillane get his start, he has absolutely proven he is up to it.

Also hope Olding is the bench option above Madigan..

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 2:58 am

Marshes wrote:Long break from the forum while away on holiday, had to watch the Connacht Leinster game four hours after it took place to find a place showing it in New York. Worth it for the result though! NYPD must have had several calls about mad screaming in an Irish Pub on 34th street  Yahoo

In regards to this series, I think as people said this should have been an opportunity to test some new faces out, however it is only injuries that have forced the hand to bring in Healy, Gilroy, and O Halloran. I know rankings are at stake and we would be replacing some experienced hands, but their is no better time between now and the net six nations to test some new players. As it happened, injuries forced Joe's hand, so I am delighted Healy and TOH are getting their chance, and also Gilroy, who has been consistently a brilliant finisher for the last three seasons.  

In regards to Jackson/Madigan, I'm hopeful that Joe will have the succession plan in mind and reward Jackson's good form. I'm also hopeful one of the flyers of Healy/Gilroy/TOH will get their chance in the first test.

If it is Jackson, I imagine Joe will go with Ulster combinations to help support him, so we could see Marshall and Payne in the centres with Henshaw at full back.

Also, might be Whest tinted glasses, but would love to see Dillane get his start, he has absolutely proven he is up to it.

Also hope Olding is the bench option above Madigan..

And Healy and O'Halloran start as well.
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Post by wolfball on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:35 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Marshes wrote:Long break from the forum while away on holiday, had to watch the Connacht Leinster game four hours after it took place to find a place showing it in New York. Worth it for the result though! NYPD must have had several calls about mad screaming in an Irish Pub on 34th street  Yahoo

In regards to this series, I think as people said this should have been an opportunity to test some new faces out, however it is only injuries that have forced the hand to bring in Healy, Gilroy, and O Halloran. I know rankings are at stake and we would be replacing some experienced hands, but their is no better time between now and the net six nations to test some new players. As it happened, injuries forced Joe's hand, so I am delighted Healy and TOH are getting their chance, and also Gilroy, who has been consistently a brilliant finisher for the last three seasons.  

In regards to Jackson/Madigan, I'm hopeful that Joe will have the succession plan in mind and reward Jackson's good form. I'm also hopeful one of the flyers of Healy/Gilroy/TOH will get their chance in the first test.

If it is Jackson, I imagine Joe will go with Ulster combinations to help support him, so we could see Marshall and Payne in the centres with Henshaw at full back.

Also, might be Whest tinted glasses, but would love to see Dillane get his start, he has absolutely proven he is up to it.

Also hope Olding is the bench option above Madigan..

And Healy and O'Halloran start as well.

I really hope Healy and O'Halloran do not both start (and I am a connacht fan). Earls and Henshaw (FB) should start, with Healy on the wing and O'H on the bench. Starting two uncapped players in similar positions away to the Boks is simply to be avoided. A backline of

15 Henshaw
14 Earls
13 Payne
12 Marshall/Olding
11 Healy

Is a great mix of experience and speed (our two best finishers on the wings, Henshaw in his (in my view) best position, and a balanced centre partnership).

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:43 am

wolfball wrote:

I really hope Healy and O'Halloran do not both start (and I am a connacht fan). Earls and Henshaw (FB) should start, with Healy on the wing and O'H on the bench. Starting two uncapped players in similar positions away to the Boks is simply to be avoided. A backline of

15 Henshaw
14 Earls
13 Payne
12 Marshall/Olding
11 Healy

Is a great mix of experience and speed (our two best finishers on the wings, Henshaw in his (in my view) best position, and a balanced centre partnership).

I would actually go for this myself.

15 Payne
14 Earls
13 Henshaw
12 Marshall
11 Healy

I feel that Payne is far better a 15 than a 13 and Henshaw is a better 13 than Payne.
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Post by wolfball on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:45 am

Happy with either to be fair thumbsup


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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:50 am

Just feel that Marshall and Henshaw are more interchangeable during the match. The coupled with Jackson's ability to step and bring his 12 and 13 into the game, it could cause the SA centres some nightmares. Depending on how the match situation is, I would also give TOH 20mins as well against a possibly tired SA defence.
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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:18 am

Payne will 100% start at 13. Schmidt seems fixated on playing him there.

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Post by rodders on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:22 am

I'd go with something like this:-

15 Payne
14 Trimble
13 Marshall
12 Olding
11 Gilroy
10 Jackson
9 Pienaa.. sorry Murray
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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:25 am

Its a shame Rory as I honestly believe that Payne is better used at 15. He is just so comfortable there and brings other players into the game so well.

If Jackson is to start then I feel that Marshall is better used at 12 for his familiarity with Jackson and Henshaw is, as I said earlier, a far superior 13 to Payne.
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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

rodders wrote:I'd go with something like this:-

15 Payne
14 Trimble
13 Marshall
12 Olding
11 Gilroy
10 Jackson
9 Pienaa.. sorry Murray

Shame Ulster don't have a home grown 9 eh rodders thumbsup
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Post by rodders on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:40 am

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:I'd go with something like this:-

15 Payne
14 Trimble
13 Marshall
12 Olding
11 Gilroy
10 Jackson
9 Pienaa.. sorry Murray

Shame Ulster don't have a home grown 9 eh rodders thumbsup

Well I'd have selected Paul Marshall but obviously Joe is bias towards the Munster and Leinster guys.
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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:46 am

Heaslip or CJ Stander at 8 is another interesting one. Both would be a bit wasted at 6 in my opinion. Heaslip is coming into some fine form again so may get the nod (that and SA will try and take CJ's head off).

Really interested to see how Henderson plays as well, he is looking back to his best as well. He could prove a real handful for the SA defence.
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:49 am

rodders wrote:I'd go with something like this:-

15 Payne
14 Trimble
13 Marshall
12 Olding
11 Gilroy
10 Jackson
9 Pienaa.. sorry Murray

That was tried a few weeks ago against Joe's Ireland. Grinded to a halt Wink

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Post by rodders on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:I'd go with something like this:-

15 Payne
14 Trimble
13 Marshall
12 Olding
11 Gilroy
10 Jackson
9 Pienaa.. sorry Murray

That was tried a few weeks ago against Joe's Ireland.  Grinded to a halt Wink

Ouch.
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Post by carpet baboon on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:28 pm

Bod has Olding down as 15 for sat.

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Post by Notch on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:36 pm

That'd be interesting, we don't really have a defensive rock at 15 left but there's no doubt in my mind Olding be less adept at covering the back field and generally get himself into good defensive positions than Payne or Henshaw. In attack he'd probably be the most exciting option entering the line from fullback because he has pace which Payne now lacks, but it's not his position. His kicking game may be on a par with Henshaw- its hard to say given how little he plays there.

So that would be a very surprising choice, and one that flies in the face of the perception of how Schmidt picks his teams.
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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:40 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Bod has Olding down as 15 for sat.

Interesting, that means that Henshaw will be 12 and Payne 13 which can only mean that Madigan will be starting at 10 in my opinion.

I believe that Marshall has to start at 12 for Jackson to start at 10...
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Post by carpet baboon on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

Bods reasoning is he dosent see anyone not in the original squad starting the first test

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Post by Notch on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

It's just his opinion, he doesn't have any inside info that I know of.
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Post by Notch on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:42 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Bods reasoning is he dosent see anyone not in the original squad starting the first test

Of course, it could be the same players he's picked but with Olding at centre and Payne or Henshaw at fullback! Or Marshall at 12 or 13.
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Post by carpet baboon on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:43 pm

eirebilly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Bod has Olding down as 15 for sat.

Interesting, that means that Henshaw will be 12 and Payne 13 which can only mean that Madigan will be starting at 10 in my opinion.

I believe that Marshall has to start at 12 for Jackson to start at 10...

His full back line is
Murray
Jackson
Earls
He Shaw
Payne
Angry Andy
Olding

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:44 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Bod has Olding down as 15 for sat.

Interesting, that means that Henshaw will be 12 and Payne 13 which can only mean that Madigan will be starting at 10 in my opinion.

I believe that Marshall has to start at 12 for Jackson to start at 10...

His full back line is
Murray
Jackson
Earls
He Shaw
Payne
Angry Andy
Olding

Actually not a bad selection. Glad he also wants to see Jackson at 10 thumbsup
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Post by carpet baboon on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:45 pm

Although I think his opinion ion has as much weight as any of ours, but the intresting to see non the less

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

I am not as big a fan of BOD as a pundit as I was when he was a player but I do have a lot of respect for what his opinions are. Just hope the he is wrong and Payne goes to 15 thumbsup
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:54 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am not as big a fan of BOD as a pundit as I was when he was a player but I do have a lot of respect for what his opinions are. Just hope the he is wrong and Payne goes to 15 thumbsup

Oh how I agree with that one Wink

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:14 pm

Anyways Fly. What do you think about my question above as to who should lay 8, CJ Stander or Heaslip?

I feel the 6-8 combo with them both a bit of a waste, prefer 1 to start at 8 and one on the bench.
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

Maybe CJ to start - younger guy with things to prove/emotion/anthems/etc. Heaslip (old dog that needs more rest than SA hassle to be honest) to be used in second halves.

I'm a firm believer in ending this idea that 'Best side' always has to show itself as starters. We might be better keep a few of the considered 'better' (more savvy International-wise anyway) for the second half.


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Post by rodders on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:40 pm

Well Heaslip definitely starts as he is vice captain.

I can see Schmidt going with Stander at 6 and Jordi Murphy at 7,  with Ruddock on the bench.

Lock will be interesting because Toner will start with A.N other. Given that Schmidt has said Roux is the only TH lock then he will be in the 23, leaving Henderson and Dillane competing for one spot.
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:46 pm

If South Africa play like they'll intend to play (ie, legally putting some of our guys on an early plane home) then there'll be no such thing as 'one spot' on this tour. I don't think we've tuned into the idea yet that this will be South Africa wanting to give us a big message. We were falling like green bottles at the world cup and we weren't even meeting the best of the best.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:If South Africa play like they'll intend to play (ie, legally putting some of our guys on an early plane home) then there'll be no such thing as 'one spot' on this tour.  I don't think we've tuned into the idea yet that this will be South Africa wanting to give us a big message.  We were falling like green bottles at the world cup and we weren't even meeting the best of the best.

Coetzee loves big packs. However I don't think the mobility of them will be great. It will weigh in probably about 930-940kgs. I'd try and move them around as much as possible. They will tire. Play a slow stodgy game and you'll play into their hands.

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Post by rodders on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:15 pm

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:If South Africa play like they'll intend to play (ie, legally putting some of our guys on an early plane home) then there'll be no such thing as 'one spot' on this tour.  I don't think we've tuned into the idea yet that this will be South Africa wanting to give us a big message.  We were falling like green bottles at the world cup and we weren't even meeting the best of the best.

Coetzee loves big packs. However I don't think the mobility of them will be great. It will weigh in probably about 930-940kgs. I'd try and move them around as much as possible. They will tire. Play a slow stodgy game and you'll play into their hands.

We're Irish, slow and stodgy is what we do.
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Post by Notch on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

Question is whether our own pack can play that kind of mobile game. I suppose we could go with Bealham or Furlong at tight head and Henderson and Dillane at lock together, but then there is a possible trade off at the set piece with Ross having to come back in the Six Nations to solve our scrum issues and Toner calling the lineout. I hope one of Furlong or Bealham is able to make the step up on this tour but thats a really experienced South African front row with two heavy locks behind it.

Stander mainly plays the South African way, and I wonder if his carrying game around the fringes might be deemed counter-productive? Thats where they want us to attack them. As great as he was in the Six Nations at punching holes around the ruck, I can't see us winning the collisions. I would prefer us to get the ball wide with two really good passers in the midfield, Jackson and Olding/Marshall.

I feel like Schmidt will have a good game plan for them and I think we will try and move them around, but I don't think it will be enough when you look at the team sheets.
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Post by fa0019 on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:30 pm

Notch wrote:Question is whether our own pack can play that kind of mobile game. I suppose we could go with Bealham or Furlong at tight head and Henderson and Dillane at lock together, but then there is a possible trade off at the set piece with Ross having to come back in the Six Nations to solve our scrum issues and Toner calling the lineout. I hope one of Furlong or Bealham is able to make the step up on this tour but thats a really experienced South African front row with two heavy locks behind it.

Stander mainly plays the South African way, and I wonder if his carrying game around the fringes might be deemed counter-productive? Thats where they want us to attack them. He was great in the Six Nations at punching holes around the ruck- I would prefer us to get the ball wide with two really good passers in the midfield, Jackson and Olding/Marshall.

I would say try not to play a mobile tight 5, playing a weak tight 5 will destroy the strategy... but definitely play a loose backrow.... and perhaps even have 2 kickers on the field to try and dictate territory. Make the boks run from deep, make chase everything.

Do you have the options at 10 and 12?  So say Jackson at 10 and Madigan at 12?

Its only a theory about how to play the boks but one I think the SH teams have done for a few years now.

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Post by Sin é on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:30 pm

You won't see Henderson & Dillane as the locks as neither of them are able to call the lineout.

Which reminds me, Paddy Butler seemingly has had a great season with Pau (starting all but 2 games I think), mostly at 7 (but also across the backrow) and made Top 14 team of the week on at least one occasion. It seems Butler was calling the lineout for Pau - maybe Schmidt missed a trick here.


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Post by SecretFly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:38 pm

Jesus Christ....................... Joe missed Paddy Mark Two too?

This is getting scandalous. I must write a stinking letter to the IRFU this instant.

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Post by mrsuperclear on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 6:24 pm

Sin é wrote:You won't see Henderson & Dillane as the locks as neither of them are able to call the lineout.

Which reminds me, Paddy Butler seemingly has had a great season with Pau (starting all but 2 games I think), mostly at 7 (but also across the backrow) and made Top 14 team of the week on at least one occasion. It seems Butler was calling the lineout for Pau - maybe Schmidt missed a trick here.



You can't be serious?

Get Nucifora to bring him back to Ireland first man, then talk about Schmidt leaving him out....

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 6:45 pm

mrsuperclear wrote:
Sin é wrote:You won't see Henderson & Dillane as the locks as neither of them are able to call the lineout.

Which reminds me, Paddy Butler seemingly has had a great season with Pau (starting all but 2 games I think), mostly at 7 (but also across the backrow) and made Top 14 team of the week on at least one occasion. It seems Butler was calling the lineout for Pau - maybe Schmidt missed a trick here.



You can't be serious?

Get Nucifora to bring him back to Ireland first man, then talk about Schmidt leaving him out....

I think that Sin é has a point, just because players play outside of Ireland should not mean that the International coach should not monitor the progress and advise if they should be approached for a return to the provinces.

As for Henderson and Dilliane not being able to call the lineout, time should be spent with them to learn that.
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Post by mrsuperclear on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 7:44 pm

eirebilly wrote:
mrsuperclear wrote:
Sin é wrote:You won't see Henderson & Dillane as the locks as neither of them are able to call the lineout.

Which reminds me, Paddy Butler seemingly has had a great season with Pau (starting all but 2 games I think), mostly at 7 (but also across the backrow) and made Top 14 team of the week on at least one occasion. It seems Butler was calling the lineout for Pau - maybe Schmidt missed a trick here.



You can't be serious?

Get Nucifora to bring him back to Ireland first man, then talk about Schmidt leaving him out....

I think that Sin é has a point, just because players play outside of Ireland should not mean that the International coach should not monitor the progress and advise if they should be approached for a return to the provinces.

As for Henderson and Dilliane not being able to call the lineout, time should be spent with them to learn that.

Agree that players should be monitored, but that's Nucifora's remit to monitor and look to bring them back. Am not happy with Schmidt for selecting a great number of players and his selections, but can't put the blame on him for Paddy fecking Butler

Henderson and Dillane are still very young, I know Paulie was superman and he possibly was calling lineouts at their age for Munster, but most locks aren't that young calling lineouts for their clubs. Hopefully at least one of them grows to that role in time, but depends where Henderson plays for Ulster really for him...

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Post by rodders on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 9:06 am

I think calling the lineout is something players either have an aptitude for or they don't.

I don't see Henderson and Dillane starting in the same team, unless Henderson is at 6. They are too similar and most effective carrying ball in the wide channels, someone needs to be doing the donkey work.

Henderson is definitely not 100% fit imo, so can see him being used as an impact player on this tour - don't see him starting at lock anyway.

Forgot totally about Donnacha Ryan - he could play a big part as well but the logic for taking Roux only stands up if he is involved in the 23.
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