South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

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Post by George Carlin on Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:49 pm

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South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 15 Sa10        South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 15 Irelan10
SOUTH AFRICA v IRELAND
11 June 2016
17:00 SAST (UTC+02)
DHL Newlands, Cape Town

Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

22 Played 22
16 Won 5
1 Drawn 1
5 Lost 16
422 Points 277

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 29 – 15 to Ireland

10 November 2012 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 12 – 16 to South Africa

6 November 2010 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 21 – 23 to South Africa

28 November 2009 - Croke Park, Dublin: 15 – 10 to Ireland

11 November 2006 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 32 – 15 to Ireland

13 November 2004 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 17 – 12 to Ireland

19 June 2004 - Newlands, Cape Town: 26 – 17 to South Africa

C. Teams

SOUTH AFRICA 
South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 15 Al_cot10
15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi 17 Trevor Nyakane 18 Julian Redelinghuys 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit 20 Warren Whiteley 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies 23 Jesse Kriel

IRELAND
South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 15 Joe-sc10
J Payne; A Trimble, R Henshaw, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, M Ross; I Henderson, D Toner; CJ Stander, J Murphy, J Heaslip

Replacements: S Cronin, F Bealham, T Furlong, U Dillane, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, C Gilroy.


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Post by fa0019 on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:07 pm

Well done to Ireland... don't see results like that often! To be honest I would say this is going down worse than the Japan match.... I mean 13 men to 15 for 10 mins, 14 for 50. Its loco.

SA were dire sure but you still have to say its a remarkable achievement.

What can you say about Stander... well it was a red. Intent, no. However there was too much time, it was too late and he knocked the guy out cold. Probably had more nerves than usual and was a little too pumped up. Bit of a nightmare and I'd be surprised if he plays any further part.

Ireland have to go for the win though now. Their will be a backlash sure but can they comeback? The boks have massive issues.

Jantjies was very poor and with Lambie out he will be running the show. He was so easy to read. Kolisi was so quiet, did little to warrant his place and the faith Coetzee has given him given him. Strauss too was very unimpressive and he's the captain.

When you have a debutant 9 and a 10 that has never started a test its a nightmare situation and proved so.

Can't really fix it by bringing in vets as they are not available /injured. I think as much as the boks have to react you have to question whether they can. Post Japan they went back to basics, picked dour veteran monsters and played the bokke way.... that option is simply not available.

Thought Ireland's halfbacks were top class and Murray is born to play the boks like Mike Phillips was. If they win the series I think it will be the quality of the 2 sides halfbacks which was probably the difference.

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Post by catchweight on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:12 pm

I dont think Ireland have been particularly punching above or below their weight the last 15 years all things considered.

1 Grand Slam, a couple of points diference 6N championship and failure to progress beyond a WC QF given the generation of players they had might actually be considered an underacheivement at international level.

Schmidt certainly didnt take over an impovished set up with a lack of quality and the Irish international job is still up there as arguably one of the top jobs in world rugby. He took over a stagnant team that had gone stale. He runs the risk of that happening to him if continues with a conservative and inflexible selection policy. There were warning signs in the last 6 nations and the world cup was ultimately a disappointment for Ireland.

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Post by Pot Hale on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:31 pm

There is the possibility that Schmidt could eventually have options to select for different games.

Jackson for one game, Sexton for another. Different midfield combos. Etc
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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:47 pm

What generation of players had Ireland?  The term Golden Generation was more often used about Ireland by outside media than it was ever used by the Irish themselves.

Ireland had the makings of a good two thirds of an International team in terms of top level ability at any given time - when lucky!  So that's always been a few players short at any time or forming something grand.  
Plus, they've always struggled to produce a 2nd string side of any note.  Once a few of the stalwarts are injured or going through a bad form period, that has tended to mean a big reduction in power and savvy from an Irish side.

Overall, I'd agree with Sin.  When you're in the moment you always think more could have been done, but as you look back on those times you realise it's all part of a era of growth.  And I think Ireland are growing as a Rugby Nation still.  There is still quite a bit of work to do to make the connection between childhood, schools, colleges, clubs, Provinces and International more smooth and fluid.  We've had a lot of organisational matters to get right and there is still much to do.  Just look at the lack of a Sevens side of note when virtually all our nearest Union rivals in and around the top 10 are well bedded down in that game.

We're getting there, perhaps slower sometimes than we'd wish - but beggars can't be choosers Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:50 pm

Pot Hale wrote:There is the possibility that Schmidt could eventually have options to select for different games.

Jackson for one game, Sexton for another.  Different midfield combos.  Etc

He's running out of time quick, Pot! Two more games is all he's got to try it according to some reports.

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Post by catchweight on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:04 pm

A generation of players good enough to win 5 Heiniken Cups a put together the most successful international spell in modern Irish rugby but yes that lack of a world class Sevens team proves they were all sh1te

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:15 pm

catchweight wrote:A generation of players good enough to win 5 Heiniken Cups a put together the most successful international spell in modern Irish rugby but yes that lack of a world class Sevens team proves they were all sh1te

Jesus, Catch - I think you're writing a novel. I want to be the first to read it. The synopsis is certainly action packed Wink

A generation of players good enough to win 5 HC Cups has still only been virtually 3 sides worth of players - most of them able to handle domestic league, some more of them able to handle European level, and only a handful really able to handle full-on International against the best. The numbers can't be bluffed. We've struggled with producing the numbers in terms of full-blooded Internationals.

The lack of a Sevens team proves nothing more than illustrating we're not as organisationally fully fledged as our rivals. We don't have the leisure to think about or develop one seriously yet - too busy concentrating on the 15 game. We're doing okay so far overall when looking at it in decade per decade terms.

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Post by Sin é on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:56 pm

Pot Hale wrote:There is the possibility that Schmidt could eventually have options to select for different games.

Jackson for one game, Sexton for another.  Different midfield combos.  Etc

He won't though. That only works at club level when you have about 30 games every season with a few games easier than others. There are about 12 games a season for international rugby, with maybe one or two easier.

What would be good is if there was an 'A' 6Nations every year.
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Post by catchweight on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:06 pm

The term Golden Generation might not sit well with you, but its the best group of Irish players they have had in decades and included a few that wouldnt be out of place in some of the best teams of all time.

I suspect the Irish would be split on the matter, but 1 Grand Slam and a failure to progress beyond a WC QF for the BOD/POC era might be considered an underwhelming return overall. I certainly wouldnt consider it punching above weight. Wales with a team that man for man over the period were not significantly better and had a much weaker regional set up managed 3 Grand Slams and a WC SF.

What does a fully organised seven team matter against 5 Heiniken Cups wins and numerous finals and semi finals. Irish rugby was in good nick. Never better.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:21 pm

"Never better" than what the future might be?

You imply a peak - a wasted opportunity - an Everest never to be reached again.  I prefer to see the supposed highpoint as just a egg incubating.  It ain't a chicken yet.

Wales do things their way, why the need to bring them up? They do things their way and have had a starting point of quality well in advance of ours (their National game - certainly in the 20th century.) They've also gone up and down the ranking graph a lot more violently than Ireland tends to. We do boring consistency mostly - Wales do furious jumps up and rapid falls down.

I don't know what kind of reaction you're looking for, catch.  
Schmidt should apologise for not choosing smartly even though he won back to back 6N championships having taken over a side that had slipped to 9th in the world with no confidence? 2 Championships, three years in charge.  
Ireland should apologise for not winning a WC and more Slams with their 'Golden Generation' of POC and BOD?

I'll apologise for both then, if apologies are required.

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Post by catchweight on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:29 pm

No, you are implying Ireland were overacheiving with the generation of players they had. "What generation of players?" you asked. The best they have had in decades I say.

I said, all things considered, 1 Slam, 2 points win 6 Nations titles and 0 WC SFs was neither particularly punching above or below their weight.

I bring Wales up to add some context, because with a less successful regionalised system and a group of players that were not significantly better overall, they acheived more internationally in broadly the same period.

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Post by quinsforever on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:33 pm

dont beat yourselves up...that was a great result. unreal really given the loss of stander so early.

its pointless comparing across generations, especially in matches against SH sides, because heineken cups and 6Ns counts for nothing against them.

i would just say that beating SA in SA for the first time, and with only 14 players for 60 minutes, is heroic, epic, plucky, determined, and undeniably skillful.

Hug Hug

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:46 pm

catchweight wrote:No, you are implying Ireland were overacheiving with the generation of players they had. "What generation of players?" you asked. The best they have had in decades I say.

I said, all things considered, 1 Slam, 2 points win 6 Nations titles and 0 WC SFs was neither particularly punching above or below their weight.

I bring Wales up to add some context, because with a less successful regionalised system and a group of players that were not significantly better overall, they acheived more internationally in broadly the same period.

The Generation you were on about was the well published 'Golden' Generation.  I knew that's what you were referring to and therefore alluded to it.  And like most people, you tend to believe the publicity of that period and 'imply' that with such a bunch of players Ireland should have been achieving much more than they did.  

I don't agree because I don't agree that was a Golden Generation.  It was a very good generation, yes - sprinkled with some towering few players of truly world class ability.  A special generation in terms of the emotions they provoked and the new interest they created in a game that was always a sideshow for much of the population of Ireland up to that time.
That they didn't achieve what the World seemed to expect them to achieve, however, makes them a generation less than Golden. Maybe Bronze or Silver.  So we wait - patiently - for Gold to come sometime in the future instead.

Yeah, Ireland were over-achieving with the limited skills they often possessed.  Many times more passion and bloody-mindedness got us across the line than anything technically skilful - and yes, at other times, there was lots of skill involved.  But we didn't have the depth to ever sustain it so doing what we did - in Europe and mildly in International - has been fine - for now.  Much to do.  Job is not done - only starting.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:46 pm

quinsforever wrote:dont beat yourselves up...that was a great result. unreal really given the loss of stander so early.

its pointless comparing across generations, especially in matches against SH sides, because heineken cups and 6Ns counts for nothing against them.

i would just say that beating SA in SA for the first time, and with only 14 players for 60 minutes, is heroic, epic, plucky, determined, and undeniably skillful.

Hug Hug

We won in SA?...... oh yes! so we did! A history making effort that was accomplished with only 14 men for most of the game. How could I forget?

How could we forget! mad




Thanks, Quins Hug

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Post by catchweight on Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:03 am

SecretFly wrote:
catchweight wrote:No, you are implying Ireland were overacheiving with the generation of players they had. "What generation of players?" you asked. The best they have had in decades I say.

I said, all things considered, 1 Slam, 2 points win 6 Nations titles and 0 WC SFs was neither particularly punching above or below their weight.

I bring Wales up to add some context, because with a less successful regionalised system and a group of players that were not significantly better overall, they acheived more internationally in broadly the same period.

The Generation you were on about was the well published 'Golden' Generation.  I knew that's what you were referring to and therefore alluded to it.  And like most people, you tend to believe the publicity of that period and 'imply' that with such a bunch of players Ireland should have been achieving much more than they did.  

I don't agree because I don't agree that was a Golden Generation.  It was a very good generation, yes - sprinkled with some towering few players of truly world class ability.  A special generation in terms of the emotions they provoked and the new interest they created in a game that was always a sideshow for much of the population of Ireland up to that time.
That they didn't achieve what the World seemed to expect them to achieve, however, makes them a generation less than Golden.  Maybe Bronze or Silver.  So we wait - patiently - for Gold to come sometime in the future instead.  

Yeah, Ireland were over-achieving with the limited skills they often possessed.  Many times more passion and bloody-mindedness got us across the line than anything technically skilful - and yes, at other times, there was lots of skill involved.  But we didn't have the depth to ever sustain it so doing what we did - in Europe and mildly in International - has been fine - for now.  Much to do.  Job is not done - only starting.

You are the one bringing this Golden Generation label. I couldnt care less what label it gets. The most successful generation in Irish Rugby history and the best bunch of players they have had in long time. That might not fit the bill of a Golden Generation compared to the All Blacks, but for Irish rugby its without a doubt a peak. Over acheiving or punching above their weight internationally? Not for me.


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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:08 am

..................... right.

We've found a firm footing on which to substantially disagree with each other Wink

Always a nice place to end a pointless exercise.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:06 am

Phenomenal result and performance - just when I thought that u-20s result was the new peak in Irish rugby Smile

To beat the Springboks in SA would have been historic in itself, to do it with 14 men is unbelievable.

It's hard to single anyone out, the work rate across the board was immense. Toner and Henderson really dominated two of the worlds best. Trimble and Earls were superb in defense and chasing kicks and Payne was pure class at 15.

Jordi Murphy was everywhere too and he and Heaslip did the work of 3 men - McGrath was world class and Best led from the front.

Paddy Jackson was my motm though - even more so because of the intercept and how he responded to close out the game.

Farrell has made and immediate impact and Joe showed his doubters he is still one of the worlds best coaches.Only downside is I wonder would we have won with Schmidt's 1st choice picks?

For the boks, I just can't believe how poor they were - even with missing players like Bismark they were favorites on paper. I am expecting a backlash though in the next two tests but this series is there to be won for Ireland now.
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Post by rapidsnowman on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:20 am

I thought the 3 Conor Murrays that were obviously on the pitch helped nullify the CJ sending off!

Murray was everywhere making tackles he had no right to make.

I though Marshall was fantastic too!

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Post by rapidsnowman on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:24 am

Good to see the old guard have great games as well as the young bucks.

Best and Heaslip were immense. I noticed Heaslip being very vocal in organising. Mike Ross too did a lot of work around the fringes Very Happy

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Post by bluestonevedder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:25 am

Sorry if I am repeating anyting that's already be said, but I finally got round to watching this game yesterday. Amazing performance from the Irish boys- huge congratulations! Can't agree with the ref's decision on Stander's card at all. It would have been a harsh yellow, let alone a red. It felt like the ref was judging it more on the outcome than the actual act.

Really impressed with Jackson at 10 (bar the interception), and Toner was immense. Thought Ruddock off the bench was also decent.

Congrats again to the Irish supporters!

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Post by carpet baboon on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:31 am

I have to say watching Ross fly up in the defensive line was a sight to behold.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:31 am

rapidsnowman wrote:I thought the 3 Conor Murrays that were obviously on the pitch helped nullify the CJ sending off!

Murray was everywhere making tackles he had no right to make.

I though Marshall was fantastic too!

Agree!
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Post by rapidsnowman on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:35 am

The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.


Henry v

CJ was sacrificing himself for his team mates.

Bet he felt crappy in the dressing room - missed out on an historic win, knocked out his mate and made himself even more of a villain in SA - poor guy.

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Post by wolfball on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:43 am

rapidsnowman wrote:Good to see the old guard have great games as well as the young bucks.

Best and Heaslip were immense. I noticed Heaslip being very vocal in organising. Mike Ross too did a lot of work around the fringes Very Happy

This was really the game where Best asserted himself wonderfully as captain. He always felt to me like he was a little too passive with refs in the past, but I thought he had a good balance with asking (the atrocious) ref to explain his decisions and knowing when to back away. I also loved his little cheeky stamp on the ball when defending our line. In another game that might have been a yellow, but he led from the front throughout and took the risk. Best and Heaslip are a good captain/vice captain paring. Add in Sexton or Jackson being the clear leaders of the backline, and I feel alot better about our leadership than post-RWC.

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Post by beshocked on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:48 am

Well done Ireland. Impressive effort. clap

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Post by profitius on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:56 am

Double post.

Only half my post below was showing up. I had to delete a smile for the rest of it to show up.


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Post by profitius on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:56 am

Farrell has made a massive difference already. England fans laughed when they heard Ireland signed him but what a great start for him.


The team had a nice fresh feel about it. Form players were picked and players in their proper positions! At least others can see now why us Irish have always been complaining about some of the selections.


Jackson was very good. The center s were better balanced. Marshall is the classic second five eight and Henshaw got more freedom in wider channels. Theyll get better the more they play together. It's been a great season for Marshall in particular. What a difference Payne made to the back line. Heads up rugby, offloading and defensively solid. Outplayed Let Roux.


Henderson had a great game too. None of his trademark big carries but he was putting in big tackles and winning turnovers. Toner showed why he is there. A big lump but he is skillful.


The scoreline flattered SA. They were trying to play a NZ like wing to wing game but they looked confused doing it. Not scoring against 13 men is criminal. Ireland defended brilliantly but the players should be able to create miss matches and space.
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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:04 am

bluestonevedder wrote:Sorry if I am repeating anyting that's already be said, but I finally got round to watching this game yesterday. Amazing performance from the Irish boys- huge congratulations! Can't agree with the ref's decision on Stander's card at all. It would have been a harsh yellow, let alone a red. It felt like the ref was judging it more on the outcome than the actual act.

Really impressed with Jackson at 10 (bar the interception), and Toner was immense. Thought Ruddock off the bench was also decent.

Congrats again to the Irish supporters!

I think the issue with Stander is that he had time. Had he been maybe a step closer you could say he couldn't pull out but he could have pulled out, he wasn't that close. I'd be surprised if he gets away with it and is allowed to continue to play.

It wasn't intentional but it wasn't that close that he couldn't have pulled out. A bit too much adrenaline.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:09 am

Interesting though. Nick Mallett made a good point on SA's performance.

Scored 2 tries both of which were fortuitous. First one I wouldn't have given and think it was very lucky. The emphasis I think was the high tackle on jantjies on the TMO, had that not been the case I think the block by De Allende would have been more heavily scrutinised.
Second was a lucky interception.

Outside of that they really created nothing. Against 13 for 10 that's criminal, against 14 for 50 that's even worse.

I would say that Newlands does seem to be quite a narrow pitch and not as easy to play wide games and exploit space yet all the same you have to create chances and SA were impotent with the ball in hand once Lambie went off.

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Post by profitius on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:10 am

rapidsnowman wrote:The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.


Henry v

CJ was sacrificing himself for his team mates.

Bet he felt crappy in the dressing room - missed out on an historic win, knocked out his mate and made himself even more of a villain in SA - poor guy.


It was a nightmare unfolding for poor CJ.

At least we can say we didn't need any SA born players to beat them. Wink
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Post by Golden on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:12 am

wolfball wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:Good to see the old guard have great games as well as the young bucks.

Best and Heaslip were immense. I noticed Heaslip being very vocal in organising. Mike Ross too did a lot of work around the fringes Very Happy

This was really the game where Best asserted himself wonderfully as captain. He always felt to me like he was a little too passive with refs in the past, but I thought he had a good balance with asking (the atrocious) ref to explain his decisions and knowing when to back away. I also loved his little cheeky stamp on the ball when defending our line. In another game that might have been a yellow, but he led from the front throughout and took the risk. Best and Heaslip are a good captain/vice captain paring. Add in Sexton or Jackson being the clear leaders of the backline, and I feel alot better about our leadership than post-RWC.


TBF if he was caught and yellow carded it could have been the losing of the game. Hed be getting some stick on here if that happened. Tis a fine line I suppose

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South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 15 Empty Re: South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

Post by Notch on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:18 am

fa0019 wrote:Interesting though. Nick Mallett made a good point on SA's performance.

Scored 2 tries both of which were fortuitous. First one I wouldn't have given and think it was very lucky. The emphasis I think was the high tackle on jantjies on the TMO, had that not been the case I think the block by De Allende would have been more heavily scrutinised.
Second was a lucky interception.

Outside of that they really created nothing. Against 13 for 10 that's criminal, against 14 for 50 that's even worse.

I would say that Newlands does seem to be quite a narrow pitch and not as easy to play wide games and exploit space yet all the same you have to create chances and SA were impotent with the ball in hand once Lambie went off.

Ireland were brave in defence, and worked incredibly hard. But even with that there were several occasions where South Africa had an overlap due to their numerical advantage and, incredibly, chose the long cut-out pass allowing us to drift. I suppose they gambled we wouldn't be able to get across in time. Well, we've been using the drift for years and we were happy to take that bet. Seriously- there were 2 or 3 easy tries out there for the taking if they had just fixed defenders and used simple, short passes through the hands.
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Post by rapidsnowman on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:35 am

In addition to the defensive system working well, I was really impressed by the individual tackling.

The commitment and bravery was immense.

Ireland were very discerning about when they went for the choke tackle. Most of the time they were just choppin' them down or driving them back.

Can't we just end the tour now? Surely it won't get better than this!

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Post by bluestonevedder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:39 am

fa0019 wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:Sorry if I am repeating anyting that's already be said, but I finally got round to watching this game yesterday. Amazing performance from the Irish boys- huge congratulations! Can't agree with the ref's decision on Stander's card at all. It would have been a harsh yellow, let alone a red. It felt like the ref was judging it more on the outcome than the actual act.

Really impressed with Jackson at 10 (bar the interception), and Toner was immense. Thought Ruddock off the bench was also decent.

Congrats again to the Irish supporters!

I think the issue with Stander is that he had time. Had he been maybe a step closer you could say he couldn't pull out but he could have pulled out, he wasn't that close. I'd be surprised if he gets away with it and is allowed to continue to play.

It wasn't intentional but it wasn't that close that he couldn't have pulled out. A bit too much adrenaline.

To me it seemed he didn't have time. He made an early jump to try and block the kick and there was little he could do to avoid the contact once he was in the air. He tried to turn away from it but his shoulder caught Lambie.

Anyway, difference of opinion. Really felt for Stander.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:40 am

rapidsnowman wrote:In addition to the defensive system working well, I was really impressed by the individual tackling.

The commitment and bravery was immense.

I'd add that some of the individual reads and decisions, where excellent too - particularly out wide. It has to be said for the large part we dominated the collisions too.

I mean for 14 men to hold out 15 for an hour is pretty unbelievable at this level.
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Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:42 am

Yeah - it definitely wasn't a good day for CJ. Personally I thought the red card was harsh, but when it's against your team the tint comes on in the glasses. Ref muttered during the replays something akin to 'the ball was gone' and 'no chance of a charge done' (harsh as he was pretty much in mid air when the ball was kick - ie committed). But if that is the view of the ref, then it puts the flying-moon-shot in a different light.

Thought it was a deserved yellow card on Henshaw for the high hit. Marshall could have made more of the blocking by the SA12. Best did the captains job and tried to bring it to the refs attention but was ignored. Captains have to have the refs ear (as they are the only ones that can ask for a word) and we need to do a better job there.

The Irish tight 5 played very well and the intensity/ability didn't drop off with any of the substitutions.

Murray was my man of the match. Though must say Toner was immense for a man that only buried his father recently. Nice dedication of the MOTM award to him during the post match interview (which went over the head of the interviewer completely). But Murray was the scrumhalf, the sweeper, the groundhog, he was everywhere.

Jackson played really well. The intercept pass was telegraphed a long way out but he took it on the chin and kept playing which is the most important thing. I was surprised that they went for posts on the kick he missed. It was almost the half way line and Jackson isn't known for big distance like that. Captain (whether Best or Heaslip) should know their kickers limits and opted for the lineout instead. I like that Jackson said I can kick that (shows good bottle) but a captain should protect kickers from themselves also.

Brilliant to see Marshall playing Test games and not getting concussed! So much talent in that fella and he seemed to link well with Henshaw also. Wings did okay. Payne wasn't really tested at full back but you can only do what is asked by you. It was great to see him joining the line in attack. Hopefully that gives Rob plenty of time off now to sort out his back.

On an aside, it was good to see Trimble in as a flanker for the scrums. Plenty of bulk there. But why for the first couple were they putting the winger on Ross' side! The TH flanker is the one that actually needs to drive, it took them a bit of time to shift Jordi over and have Trimble behind McGrath (who also played well). And I liked that they knew late in the game when SA needed the try to drop Trimble into the backline to defend and hold the scrum a man down - great to see them playing the scoreboard/clock/situation correctly.

- to be 14 men for most the game
- to be 13 men for 10 minutes
- to lose a handful of lineouts in good field position
- to have your outhalf miss a penalty (which was too far out for him) and a drop goal (which was worth the attempt at the time)

yet still win and win comfortably in the end. The players deserve a lot of credit.

There will be backlash next week, but with 15 men and a bit more belief in the players minds about playing SA in SA, it will be a tasty affair.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:43 am

Notch wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Interesting though. Nick Mallett made a good point on SA's performance.

Scored 2 tries both of which were fortuitous. First one I wouldn't have given and think it was very lucky. The emphasis I think was the high tackle on jantjies on the TMO, had that not been the case I think the block by De Allende would have been more heavily scrutinised.
Second was a lucky interception.

Outside of that they really created nothing. Against 13 for 10 that's criminal, against 14 for 50 that's even worse.

I would say that Newlands does seem to be quite a narrow pitch and not as easy to play wide games and exploit space yet all the same you have to create chances and SA were impotent with the ball in hand once Lambie went off.

Ireland were brave in defence, and worked incredibly hard. But even with that there were several occasions where South Africa had an overlap due to their numerical advantage and, incredibly, chose the long cut-out pass allowing us to drift. I suppose they gambled we wouldn't be able to get across in time. Well, we've been using the drift for years and we were happy to take that bet. Seriously- there were 2 or 3 easy tries out there for the taking if they had just fixed defenders and used simple, short passes through the hands.

Defence was strong but I think Farrell is getting a lot of credit which I think is slightly unfair... its not like its a shockingly new strategy being employed. SA fell for the choke tackle a lot, I don't know why but I think typical bokke arrogance is one of them... you don't run chests out to an IRE midfield, ever. De Jager & Etzebeth were heavily used as strike runners and whilst strong, their centre of gravity is something most forwards can deal with.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:47 am

Well played Ireland, cracking result (particularly taking into account the red card and the period of the game with 13 men).

I thought Henderson put in a cracking shift, and hats off to Paddy Jackson. I always had him down as too flaky for international rugby but there's no arguing with that performance.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:47 am

Notch wrote:

Ireland were brave in defence, and worked incredibly hard. But even with that there were several occasions where South Africa had an overlap due to their numerical advantage and, incredibly, chose the long cut-out pass allowing us to drift. I suppose they gambled we wouldn't be able to get across in time. Well, we've been using the drift for years and we were happy to take that bet. Seriously- there were 2 or 3 easy tries out there for the taking if they had just fixed defenders and used simple, short passes through the hands.

Too right.  

It was a strange game.  Ireland had no options - they were forced to defend like their lives depended on it for most of the game.  They had little leisure time to develop anything serious aggressive in attack and yet tried to at times, more so simply to keep possession and keep the play up the other end of the field.  They did what they had to do and did it very well.

The game was South Africa's to own and there's the surprise.  You could say they were bad not to exploit the glaring Irish disadvantage through the game but they did look so often like they had the makings of three or four tries throughout the game.  They were loose enough, they had pace enough, the had force enough and yet somehow none of it clicked.  But it was always dangerous.  

Some posters or media people I've read post game claimed it was quite easy for Ireland really and that they never looked panicked.  If so it was simply because they had no time to panic, they were concentrating so intensely that they couldn't fit panic in.  But it was nervy... and the mental drain will have proved as exhausting as the physical energy required to sustain the defence. 

So it'll be interesting next game.  South Africa still have a lot of pace, movement and brute force to push us off the field if they get their heads up and things stick.  Things just got tougher, one mile up.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:54 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
On an aside, it was good to see Trimble in as a flanker for the scrums. Plenty of bulk there.  But why for the first couple were they putting the winger on Ross' side!  The TH flanker is the one that actually needs to drive, it took them a bit of time to shift Jordi over and have Trimble behind McGrath (who also played well).  And I liked that they knew late in the game when SA needed the try to drop Trimble into the backline to defend and hold the scrum a man down - great to see them playing the scoreboard/clock/situation correctly.

The scrumming aspect would be negligible between the two.

The key thing is that the winger binds on the blindside so he can get back in position as quicky as possible, except on perhaps an opposition attack close to your own line, where you couldn't want to expose an out of position back acting as a flanker to the opposition 8 attacking down the blindside of the scrum.
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Post by rapidsnowman on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:56 am

Don't know if you remember but I thought SA were lucky to avoid a yellow for taking Toner out in the air from the first kick off.

He landed horizontally rather than head first but it still looked pretty bad.

As an aside, whilst he was lying there his feet were in our 22 and his head just over the half way line! It's true! I seen it!

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:57 am

Just looked at the video of Stander again and at the moment Lambie kicks the ball Stander is about 3-4 metres away with his feet on the ground. He probably had enough time to pull out. Not saying it was intentional, it was clear he was going for the ball but at the same time he wasn't close to getting there. I think red is pretty much a standard call and can't see how he will get off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVLH-od1pV8

Pause the play on the above on 2 secs with the match at 21.19 mins played when the ball leaves Lambies foot. Stander is no where near and not close to committing. Have taken a snapshot of the play but can't seem to upload it here.

For me that's a red.

Nevertheless... what a performance... Murray was everywhere, Jackson too. The diff between the halfback pairings was pretty stark.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:01 am

rapidsnowman wrote:Don't know if you remember but I thought SA were lucky to avoid a yellow for taking Toner out in the air from the first kick off.

He landed horizontally rather than head first but it still looked pretty bad.

As an aside, whilst he was lying there his feet were in our 22 and his head just over the half way line! It's true! I seen it!

I agree but I think Best could have been binned too. SA were on the line at the beginning of the 2nd half and best came into a ruck from the side and then kicked the ball off the back out of De Klerk's hands. It was very close to a try but the fumble caused a turnover. Next play could easily have been a crossover which could have turned the match.

In the end, SA and IRE both had there grey area moments outside of the red card where they were fortuitous but IRE deserved the win hands down.

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Post by Notch on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:01 am

rapidsnowman wrote:Can't we just end the tour now? Surely it won't get better than this!

Aw come on. We Irish posters still have some ding-dong debates lined up, especially if we lose the second test. In the event of a defeat I plan to start a thread to ask "If Schmidt is such a tactical genius, why did he pick 15 players when 14 worked so well? Obviously that wasn't his original plan to go with 14 players, he's just lucky circumstances turned out that way!"

Wink
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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:05 am

fa0019 wrote:Just looked at the video of Stander again and at the moment Lambie kicks the ball Stander is about 3-4 metres away with his feet on the ground. He probably had enough time to pull out. Not saying it was intentional, it was clear he was going for the ball but at the same time he wasn't close to getting there. I think red is pretty much a standard call and can't see how he will get off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVLH-od1pV8

Pause the play on the above on 2 secs with the match at 21.19 mins played when the ball leaves Lambies foot. Stander is no where near and not close to committing. Have taken a snapshot of the play but can't seem to upload it here.

For me that's a red.


The way the game is controlled today, the rules being the rules, yes, it was a red.

But at normal speed, neither player was thinking about 2 secs with the match at 21.19 .... Wink.

At normal speed that was one fast incident.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:08 am

Notch wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:Can't we just end the tour now? Surely it won't get better than this!

Aw come on. We Irish posters still have some ding-dong debates lined up, especially if we lose the second test. In the event of a defeat I plan to start a thread to ask "If Schmidt is such a tactical genius, why did he pick 15 players when 14 worked so well?"

Wink

laughing Actually, Joe should think seriously about it.

Meanwhile, the non-coaching coach - seldom have I seen a more animated coach organising the final end game in his little microphone as he yells commands at the water boys.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:25 am

Next test then, what should Joe do?

i think we need to rotate certain players.

I would consider bringing in Donnacha Ryan. In the back row Ruddock will come in for CJ I'm sure.

I'd like to see Olding and Healy get a shot but hard to make any changes to the backline
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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:27 am

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Just looked at the video of Stander again and at the moment Lambie kicks the ball Stander is about 3-4 metres away with his feet on the ground. He probably had enough time to pull out. Not saying it was intentional, it was clear he was going for the ball but at the same time he wasn't close to getting there. I think red is pretty much a standard call and can't see how he will get off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVLH-od1pV8

Pause the play on the above on 2 secs with the match at 21.19 mins played when the ball leaves Lambies foot. Stander is no where near and not close to committing. Have taken a snapshot of the play but can't seem to upload it here.

For me that's a red.


The way the game is controlled today, the rules being the rules, yes, it was a red.

But at normal speed, neither player was thinking about 2 secs with the match at 21.19 .... Wink.

At normal speed that was one fast incident.

I mean sure... at full pelt he's running 8 metres a second right so agree but it was too far away to suggest he was fully committed and was unable to pull out. I do feel sorry for him, he was obviously affected by the build up but was playing ok beforehand. Will go down as a Jonathan Woodgate type debut mind (although not his debut but you get what I mean).

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:28 am

rodders wrote:Next test then, what should Joe do?

i think we need to rotate certain players.

I would consider bringing in Donnacha Ryan. In the back row Ruddock will come in for CJ I'm sure.

I'd like to see Olding and Healy get a shot but hard to make any changes to the backline

The locks had Etzebeth and De Jager in their pocket all game... stealing lineouts, making turnovers... They'd be ironclad for me.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:29 am

fa0019 wrote:
rodders wrote:Next test then, what should Joe do?

i think we need to rotate certain players.

I would consider bringing in Donnacha Ryan. In the back row Ruddock will come in for CJ I'm sure.

I'd like to see Olding and Healy get a shot but hard to make any changes to the backline

The locks had Etzebeth and De Jager in their pocket all game... stealing lineouts, making turnovers... They'd be ironclad for me.

For sure but guys will need a rest I think, we have 2 tests to go.
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