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EU exit - So folks what are you all thinking?

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Post by Sin é Fri 03 Jun 2016, 3:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just curious to know what you all think and what way you will be voting.

Will it have an affect on rugby (from point of view of bringing in non-British players, coaches for example).
Will sterling devalue so that it will be impossible for English clubs to compete with French Euro clubs
What about Scotland? Will this push them out of the UK?
How about Ulster fans - are you looking forward to the reinstallation of the Border?

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Post by BamBam Tue 05 Nov 2019, 11:17 pm

I'm not sure which bit of that post refers to old people quins? It refers to the thick, not the old. Plenty of older people on the right side of this debate

Beyond blue passports and "sOvErEiGnTy", and a benefit to the monumental fishing industry, no one gives a reason to continue with this nonsense other than "leave won".

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 06 Nov 2019, 7:10 am

BamBam wrote:Deluded people like Dowlais like to pretend it doesn't exist, rather than calling it out for what it is

WOW, you are so arrogant, beyond belief.

Firstly, I am not deluded, I know racism is a cancer in our society, I know it exists, in all forms, not just for the colour of a persons skin.

I am also not of the opinion where all the racists are leave voters, and I am also not arrogant enough to think that I am always right about everything, like you. Also, just because you voted remain, like myself, it does not mean that everyone who voted leave are thick, or wrong.

Each side of the vote has their valid reasons. You need appreciate that there is right and wrong on both sides.

You need to learn some respect, you might then get some back.

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Post by BamBam Wed 06 Nov 2019, 9:23 am

Dowlais, you're never right about anything so I'm glad you don't think that

Respect is earned, not a right. Still waiting for these reasons to vote leave that aren't the fishing industry, immigration or blue passports. You voted to remain but you can apparently appreciate the other sides reasons, so please educate me

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Post by Big Wed 06 Nov 2019, 12:29 pm

BamBam wrote:Dowlais, you're never right about anything so I'm glad you don't think that

Respect is earned, not a right. Still waiting for these reasons to vote leave that aren't the fishing industry, immigration or blue passports. You voted to remain but you can apparently appreciate the other sides reasons, so please educate me

I'm not Dowlais but I'll give you some reasons:

1. The EU is less democratic than our own government, and therefore should not get an increasing say in how we run our lives. The executive powers and legislative direction rest largely with the commission - and the composition of the commission is decided by elected heads of state, rather than as a direct election. The upshot is that European citizens never get to vote on the legislative/executive direction the EU is taking. That for me is a big problem. Our own UK system is massively flawed in that our vote amalgamates the vote for a local representative and the party manifesto on which they stand. But at least with the party system and published manifestos we can call the government out when they don't do what they said they would, and ultimately vote them out at the next election. We also (as demonstrated in recent months) have a powers that allow our elected representatives to hold the executive authorities to account, I'm aware of no such equivalent in the EU. I would note that it is appalling that we don't have a proper constitution (and if this Brexit fiasco demonstrates anything it is how badly we need one), and for those countries that do the democratic shortfall of the EU is even greater.

2. Being in the EU effectively ties us into a centre-right system of capitalism and globalisation. I'm fairly happy with centrist politics, but I'm not happy that we are effectively tied into this by being a member of the EU. As above I quite like democratic accountability, and I think it should be for British voters to decide whether we become more right/left wing than the EU would allow.

3. We are too pernickety for the EU. We follow the rules regardless, others follow them when it suits them. At least that is my impression after living in Italy for a while. Arguably that's our problem rather than an EU problem - but irrespective it makes life in the EU difficult for us.

4. Bit of an overlap with fishing, but the EU rules in some cases actually promote and allows a degree of harm to our environment. CAP basically results in large amounts of land that are very loosely 'farmed' in order to get subsidies (think leaving a few sheep to keep growth down, and an occasional bit of grouse shooting). So people who are already rich get massive subsidies, and land that might otherwise be left to allow nature to regain a bit of a foothold in our little island are kept devoid of any really meaningful biodiversity. Likewise for our waters, because of the way fishing is regulated it is very difficult to have areas properly protected from either overfishing and/or damaging fishing methods.

5. We are bad for the EU. The EU is in a mess, and Brexit isn't even close to being it's biggest problem. By putting a common currency before economic integration they have put the cart before the horse - and it is therefore no surprise that the cart is now veering all over the road. The EU needs to integrate more or dismantle the single currency - with most bets on them ultimately doing the former. This will be nigh on impossible with Britain still in the EU as we (understandably) will veto moves for further integration that are unpopular here, when we aren't ourselves a part of the currency union. Cameron, for all his failings and his ham fisted antagonistic approach, quite reasonably thought there was a good case for a two tier EU - those in the common market signing up to the common market elements but retaining a say in them, and those on the path to a federal Europe sharing other powers. This was ultimately rejected by them - presumably because they realised that given the choice most countries would just want to be in the common market and retain more local power. Which sort of begs the question, why try and force everyone down that road if most/all don't actually want it? And also leads back to point 1 on the lack of democracy. Regardless of that, us leaving means that the EU can get on with economic integration that will help to stabilise their economies and hopefully trigger improvement in places like Greece and Spain. If we left the EU, but stayed in the common market it would be good for us as it would potentially mean significant growth in our main export market.

That's just off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more.

All that said, I also voted remain - mainly because I thought Tories would make a complete mess of leaving, and I wouldn't have trusted them even if they had succeeded. I can very easily imagine them basically trying to turn the UK into a large tax haven on the edge of the EU, in a race to the bottom with regards to employment rights and environmental protection. For me that's worse than remaining. However, I think it's disingenuous to pretend the EU doesn't have massive problems and I can understand why some want to leave. Whether we leave or remain, I am very concerned about what the EU will become in the long term if there isn't some significant change in direction and accountability on the part of those running the show. Indeed it is largely on this basis that some of the most politically astute and well informed folks I know are in favour of leave - it is most definitely not just the racist/stupid that voted that way.


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Post by BamBam Wed 06 Nov 2019, 1:37 pm

A reply of such detail deserves the same in return. I'm currently in Phuket so it may be a delayed response but I'll come back to you on your points

Thanks for doing so, expecting anything beyond slogans from Dowlais was always a little naive. I assume he'll pop up saying he completely agrees, but it'll be nonsense

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 06 Nov 2019, 2:25 pm

I voted remain, and would vote remain again.

However my biggest issue with the EU is it's apparent march towards Federalism. I do believe there is a dream amongst some for a United States of Europe where the individual states are subservient to the centre.

But we are much better trying to influence things from within than without. Financially we will be worse off leaving. We will be an insignificant little blip in global politics and yes the Tories cannot be trusted to even try and do what is best for the majority.

The Leave Campaign was largely built on immigration and the financial lies. There were additional lies about what we are forced to do by EU law (and yes Big we do seem to be too much a stickler for the rules) and it is funny to see the squirming from people when Judges and Parliament seek to implement UK law.

The EU is significantly flawed, but we are much better and stronger in it than outside. This country was bankrupt in the 70s - partly due to de Gaulle refusing to let us join the EEC. With the help of the IMF and membership of EEC/EU we recovered and flourished. My generation (Generation X) have benefited hugely from this. But we (aided by Baby Boomers) have seriously Frak the world up. The planet is dying and as a country we want to cosy up to the US. Frankly we are destroying the futures of our kids and we should be ashamed.

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Post by Sin é Wed 06 Nov 2019, 3:24 pm

Big wrote:
I'm not Dowlais but I'll give you some reasons.

I'm neither Dowlais or BamBam, but I'll respond to this.

1. The EU is less democratic than our own government, and therefore should not get an increasing say in how we run our lives.  The executive powers and legislative direction rest largely with the commission - and the composition of the commission is decided by elected heads of state, rather than as a direct election.  The upshot is that European citizens never get to vote on the legislative/executive direction the EU is taking.  That for me is a big problem.  Our own UK system is massively flawed in that our vote amalgamates the vote for a local representative and the party manifesto on which they stand.  But at least with the party system and published manifestos we can call the government out when they don't do what they said they would, and ultimately vote them out at the next election.   We also (as demonstrated in recent months) have a powers that allow our elected representatives to hold the executive authorities to account, I'm aware of no such equivalent in the EU.  I would note that it is appalling that we don't have a proper constitution (and if this Brexit fiasco demonstrates anything it is how badly we need one), and for those countries that do the democratic shortfall of the EU is even greater.

The executive powers and direction of the EU Commission are derived from the Lisbon Treaty, which is basically the Rules and Regs of the EU which were all agreed (democratically) by each country's parliament if not by referendums in some countries.
The EU Commission cannot pass any law without it being agreed and voted on by (a) Council of Ministers (PMs/head of State of each member country) and (b) the European Parliament / MEPs. Prior to any legislation going through it goes through Committee Stage in the European Parliament where it can be changed and amended. Since you mention fisheries, I've provided a link to that committee. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/pech/home.html That is the Committee that Nigel Farage was on in which he only went to 1 out of 42 meetings!

The EU Commission is effectively the Admin/Civil Service of the EU except that each Dept. Head (Commissioner) is nominated by the Prime Minister/Head of Gov. of each member country. The President of the Commission assigns particular portfolio's to each new Commissioner who then has a 3 hour interrogation by the European Parliament where they have to present their agenda/policy/manifesto for their tenure in their position. This is not just a rubber stamp by the European Parliament - 3 nominees have been rejected by the European Parliament (from Hungary, Bulgaria and France). These countries have now nominated 3 other people who have to be approved by the European Parliament. The new Commission was meant to take up their position on 1 Nov. but that has now been delayed for another month.

By the way - all the hearings/questioning of the Commissioners is available on the European Parliament website. Here is a link to the new trade commissioner's hearing (Phil Hogan). https://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/committees/video?event=20190930-1830-SPECIAL-HEARING-2Q2


2. Being in the EU effectively ties us into a centre-right system of capitalism and globalisation.  I'm fairly happy with centrist politics, but I'm not happy that we are effectively tied into this by being a member of the EU.  As above I quite like democratic accountability, and I think it should be for British voters to decide whether we become more right/left wing than the EU would allow.

I'm not sure what your problem is with the system. The majority of Europeans are obviously centre-right, but there is a fairly big socialist influence. For instance, in the groupings of the European Parliament the EPP (centre-right) have 182 MEPs, The Socialists 154 MEPs, The Liberals 108, The Greens 74 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_groups_of_the_European_Parliament )

3. We are too pernickety for the EU.  We follow the rules regardless, others follow them when it suits them.  At least that is my impression after living in Italy for a while.  Arguably that's our problem rather than an EU problem - but irrespective it makes life in the EU difficult for us.

I'd be pretty sure that with the except of maybe Italy and some of the southern/eastern Europeans, the rest of the countries stick to the rules. By the way, recently the European Parliament had a vote on curbing financial support to countries that don't follow the rules (aimed specifically at countries like Poland and Hungary). The UK MEPs voted against it!

4. Bit of an overlap with fishing, but the EU rules in some cases actually promote and allows a degree of harm to our environment.  CAP basically results in large amounts of land that are very loosely 'farmed' in order to get subsidies (think leaving a few sheep to keep growth down, and an occasional bit of grouse shooting).  So people who are already rich get massive subsidies, and land that might otherwise be left to allow nature to regain a bit of a foothold in our little island are kept devoid of any really meaningful biodiversity.  Likewise for our waters, because of the way fishing is regulated it is very difficult to have areas properly protected from either overfishing and/or damaging fishing methods.

CAP does no such thing. For the record, England manages its CAP differently to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. The English system rewards large landowners which is not the case in the other countries. Note, that each country manages its own CAP schemes. For instance, in Ireland there is a cap on how much an individual farmer can earn (think its 100,000 which about 3 landowners reach which includes some state owned lands used for Research & Development. Ireland would be a world leader in Dairy Science research). The average CAP payment to farmers in Ireland is about 18K (and the average income is about 26K).

Just on your point about a few sheep grazing blocking biodiversity - the National Parks use this method and it is considered environmentally friendly. I know in the Burren (which is a world heritage landscape) they use cattle to graze to help preserve the unique landscape).



5. We are bad for the EU.  The EU is in a mess, and Brexit isn't even close to being it's biggest problem.  By putting a common currency before economic integration they have put the cart before the horse - and it is therefore no surprise that the cart is now veering all over the road.  The EU needs to integrate more or dismantle the single currency - with most bets on them ultimately doing the former.  This will be nigh on impossible with Britain still in the EU as we (understandably) will veto moves for further integration that are unpopular here, when we aren't ourselves a part of the currency union.  Cameron, for all his failings and his ham fisted antagonistic approach, quite reasonably thought there was a good case for a two tier EU - those in the common market signing up to the common market elements but retaining a say in them, and those on the path to a federal Europe sharing other powers.  This was ultimately rejected by them - presumably because they realised that given the choice most countries would just want to be in the common market and retain more local power.  Which sort of begs the question, why try and force everyone down that road if most/all don't actually want it?  And also leads back to point 1 on the lack of democracy. Regardless of that, us leaving means that the EU can get on with economic integration that will help to stabilise their economies and hopefully trigger improvement in places like Greece and Spain.  If we left the EU, but stayed in the common market it would be good for us as it would potentially mean significant growth in our main export market.

Actually, you are wrong about the two tier Europe. The people who objected to that were the countries not in the EURO because they were afraid they were going to be left behind. The UK made a big mistake not joining the Euro because it lost influence in Europe in the area that it had most to gain.

There isn't a country in Europe in the EURO who wants to leave it. It provides great stability - for example, the fall of sterling has hit many Irish companies and many with small margin (Irish mushroom farmers come to mind) went bust when sterling fell as the UK was their main market. The positive side of the fall in sterling is that Ireland's loans from the British Government are now much cheaper! The Euro's biggest critics come from the US and the UK perhaps because they see it as a rival. Being able to devalue isn't all its cracked up to be. If Greece left the Euro they would be totally sunk in debt that no one would bail them out.


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Post by Sin é Wed 06 Nov 2019, 3:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I voted remain, and would vote remain again.

However my biggest issue with the EU is it's apparent march towards Federalism. I do believe there is a dream amongst some for a United States of Europe where the individual states are subservient to the centre.

But we are much better trying to influence things from within than without. Financially we will be worse off leaving. We will be an insignificant little blip in global politics and yes the Tories cannot be trusted to even try and do what is best for the majority.

The Leave Campaign was largely built on immigration and the financial lies. There were additional lies about what we are forced to do by EU law (and yes Big we do seem to be too much a stickler for the rules) and it is funny to see the squirming from people when Judges and Parliament seek to implement UK law.

The EU is significantly flawed, but we are much better and stronger in it than outside. This country was bankrupt in the 70s - partly due to de Gaulle refusing to let us join the EEC. With the help of the IMF and membership of EEC/EU we recovered and flourished. My generation (Generation X) have benefited hugely from this. But we (aided by Baby Boomers) have seriously Frak the world up. The planet is dying and as a country we want to cosy up to the US. Frankly we are destroying the futures of our kids and we should be ashamed.

There won't be a federal europe unless every member supports it and that is just not going to happen. A recent interview in Der Spiegel with Juncker discusses this:

DER SPIEGEL: The nationalists are trying to create the image of the EU as a bogeyman, as a bureaucratic monster that destroys national identities. Do you think you provided the ammunition for such accusations?

Juncker: I have never spoken of the United States of Europe, at least not since I was 18 years old. But that hasn't stopped many Brexiteers from seeing me as an ideological target. We must not give Europeans the false impression that the European Union is on the way to becoming a single state. Even highly enthusiastic Europeans are against our union becoming a European melting pot.

DER SPIEGEL: Isn't that a little too diffident? Doesn't the EU need more centralism, at least in some areas? We are thinking in particular about European foreign policy. It is unlikely the EU will be able to save the nuclear agreement with Iran and it had to look on helplessly as Turkey marched into Syria. We are far from the "global political capability" that you often exhort.

Juncker: On a few select foreign policy issues, we need to be able to decide by qualified majority in the future -- in terms of condemning the human rights situation in China, for example. It is unacceptable that we say nothing simply because one member state doesn't agree. When it comes to military operations, however, we have to be more cautious. I cannot imagine the German parliament backing a European decision that would send German soldiers into deployment, not even in the future. That is Germany's most sensitive spot. And this sovereign right of the Bundestag will not be encroached upon.

DER SPIEGEL: A joint EU approach to climate policy is also urgently needed. Given the pressure young people have been building up for months now, do you think you should have made fighting climate change a more central focus of your term?

https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eu-commission-president-jean-claude-juncker-a-1294486-amp.html
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Post by Big Wed 06 Nov 2019, 4:43 pm

Thanks Sin e - good to have reasoned debate. I've not copied all to save this getting too long so will just respond point by point.

1. I am aware of the process for appointing commissioners and am aware that the commission has to have legislation approved. However, when I refer to the 'legislative direction' it is the ability to plan for where (broadly speaking) you want to go, and to initiate the legislation required to get you there. The civil service cannot do this. When the government decide or are advised that legislation will be required to achieve a political objective they may get the civil service to then draft up the detailed legislation and do the necessary research. The civil service have no mechanism I am aware of to initiate legislation on their own. The commission once appointed can do that. Crucially, that government has put forward in a manifesto what (roughly speaking) we can expect to see from them by way of legislation. The commission are appointed by democratically elected heads of state, and approved or rejected by MEPs, but that is a pretty lose definition of democracy in my opinion. At no point do we get potential manifestos put to us as Europeans to vote on and get our say in the future plans of the EU.

2. My problem is that we are collectively tied into it.

3. Point noted on the rest of Europe - my time living abroad/travelling has mostly been Mediterranean Europe so that will influence my perception. When you say UK MEPs do you mean Brexit Party MEPs? Worth clarifying as they will vote against everything on principle as I understand it (hence also Farage not attending fisheries thing) - if say Lib Dem MEPs were voting against that would be pretty scandalous.

4. Interesting points on CAP - I will take a look into that, and see what the differences are between England and others. With regards to sheep and biodiversity - they are destroyers. The national parks effectively preserve land in it's totally trashed state, and the grazing prevents the growth of shrubs and trees prevents them being able to support and significant wildlife. The fact that they aren't covered in buildings, and are pretty, and are easy to walk around doesn't make them good ecologically speaking.

5. Interesting on the EU resistance to the two tier option being from those - I'll take your word for it. Not sure I can agree on the other points though about the Euro. I'm blinking grateful we have nothing to do with the Euro thanks very much. We've lost some investment but would have been in massive trouble in the financial crash had we not had the mechanisms that come with owning your own currency to help balance things out. And no one wants to leave? I'd agree in that I don't think anyone wants the pain and disruption of leaving, but would caveat that with the fact that most of my Italian and Greek friends wish they'd never joined and would leave if they thought they could do it smoothly - it's not like they are happy with it. I was living in Italy just after the Euro came in and at least where I was it was already very unpopular.

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Post by Sin é Wed 06 Nov 2019, 6:02 pm

Hi Big, some answers.

1. The Lisbon Treaty has decided where the EU wants to go. For example, according to the Lisbon Treaty, tax is a competence of each member state. If the Commission wanted to change that (it would suit them), it would require the approval of all 27/28 EU member states (everyone has a veto) and the European Parliament. Thats not going to change.

The Budget is also controlled by the European Parliament. For instance, The Commission wants to tie financial supports to the rule of law and have more control as to how the money is spent (there is a lot of corruption in some of those Easter European countries). So far, those countries have been able to block that legislation going through. In short, the Commission can propose all the legislation it wants, but its going nowhere if not approved by the Council and the elected European Parliament.
With MEPs like Forage and Marine Le Pen, you can see why it is better to have some sort of control over the proposed legislation - otherwise Eurosceptics would grind the EU to a halt. Perhaps if the people who voted for these MEPs were a bit more responsible with their vote, it might be possible to let MEPs propose legislation.

By the way, there is a mechanism for Joe Soap to request legislation - all they have to do is get 1 million signatures from at least 2 or 3 different countries. Shouldn't be hard.

Just for the record, the Commission do make great efforts to communicate with member countries. For instance, Barnier (already very familiar with Northern Ireland because he was a Commissioner that was involved in providing aid to Northern Ireland), was over meeting people on the Border in NI a few times. Even Angela Merkel met people from the NI border in Dublin for a round table discussion. May and Boris didn't do any of that. Barnier was always meeting delegations from NI as well (politics, economic, farming etc), so its not like they are hiding from the public.

2. There are good and bad things about the EU. You can't have your cake and eat it though.

3. I have a feeling that the Tories voted against it. The vote was just before Boris's WA was agreed with the EU. There was talk of Boris getting Orban to not agree to the extension I think. It wouldn't surprise me if Orban said he would reject it to get the UK MEPs to vote against the anti-corruption measures and then broke his word to Boris!

4. The Commission tried to introduce legislation to cap the amount of CAP payments to an individual, but it was blocked in the European Parliament. The British Government could cap it though (like the way the Irish Government has). The system of landownership is quite different though in Ireland to England as most farms are smallish family farm units (certainly in comparison to England).

The problem with a lot of sheep and the uplands is overgrazing. Once the soil becomes bare in the uplands, it very hard to get anything to grow again. Thats why you see sitka spruce which grows in poor soil (with the help of loads of fertilizer which runs into rivers and streams and destroys the quality of water). Grouse nest in heather, so not so bad.

5. I think a lot of people's thinking in Europe has changed since Brexit. Non of the Eurosceptics support leaving either EU or Euro now.

From an article about a conference in Eastern Europe in 2017.

Poland and other eastern EU members like the Czech Republic that have not yet joined the eurozone are concerned that the 19-member single currency grouping could integrate deeply and quickly, leaving them far behind.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/poland-warns-multi-speed-europe-could-spawn-more-brexits/

The idea of a multi-speed Europe has been shelved, though I think Macron might like to revive the idea.
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Post by Big Thu 07 Nov 2019, 3:05 pm

1. All true, but for all that I think it's fair to say that it is still the case that there is no opportunity for people to vote on what they want to see as a proposed program of change. That to me isn't as good as the national level democracies, that to me is less democratic than most countries national politics. And the sad thing is that it really doesn't need to be this way. While it would require a new EU constitution, it would be perfectly possible to have the EU president elected, and for the president to appoint the commission and initiate legislation based on their manifesto - thus allowing voters to have some affirmative influence on direction. I honestly can't understand why it wasn't like this in the Lisbon Treaty (except for the cynic in me thinking that heads of state would rather keep power to themselves/the council, than run the risk of people voting in someone they disagree with).

It's not often I agree with Varoufakis - but I think his campaigning under the DiEM banner is spot on in my view.

Sin é wrote:
With MEPs like Forage and Marine Le Pen, you can see why it is better to have some sort of control over the proposed legislation - otherwise Eurosceptics would grind the EU to a halt. Perhaps if the people who voted for these MEPs were a bit more responsible with their vote, it might be possible to  let MEPs propose legislation.

While I sympathise with your disdain for Farage and Le Pen - I don't see this as 'better'. More convenient perhaps but not better. I take the view that when we start trying to dictate who can/can't have a say we are starting down a very slippery slope. If things grind to a halt because people have voted a certain way, then so be it. I think our fundamental values are just different here perhaps.

2. Agree - but the original comments were in response to what's wrong with the EU... my comments are not intended to say that on balance it is right to leave, merely that the EU is not a bed or roses and does have issues.

3. Interesting and one their opposition should be raising in the forthcoming general election if so. I did try and look this vote up but couldn't find it...

4. Interesting again how much is dictated at a local level. Possibly one to push for nationally if it can be capped, and I'm curious as to why say Labour and/or Lib Dems aren't already doing this if so.

With regards to sheep and overgrazed uplands it's especially hard to recover if you don't stop grazing... rather than bang on though I'd point to work by the likes of Monbiot (e.g. this link). Like Varoufakis not someone I'd typically agree with, but he really knows his stuff around the environment - zoology is after all his original specialist area.

5. Thank you for the link. It's a tricky one because I struggle to see the Euro as anything other than an economic hazard for it's more fiscally precarious members. I can understand concerns by some at being outside the inner circle of the EU, but I would have thought that to some extent they'd look at Greece and think "do we risk it?".

Anyway - thanks again for reasoned exchanges.



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Post by Geen sport voor watjes Fri 08 Nov 2019, 12:06 am

The eu can be what ever you want it to be. It’s either the big bad bogeyman or a community of nations. I am a 50+ year old Irish man who lived for about 8 years on the mainland (Europe that is) and I cannot honestly think of anything negative about the whole thing. The most important thing being peace on Ireland. The whole eu thingy facilitated peace. After 800 years how bad

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Post by lostinwales Sun 10 Nov 2019, 8:06 pm

It feels as if there are two separate issues here which are treated as the same.

The first is the question of what direction EU and Europe as a whole is going in, and the second is are we in the UK better in or out.

The second question is a good deal easier to answer than the first.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Nov 2019, 7:13 am

Conservatives are saying they'll cut business rates. Bizarre they cant have realised that's the EU s fault. We're also getting promises for more foreigners in sports teams.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 15 Nov 2019, 9:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Conservatives are saying they'll cut business rates. Bizarre they cant have realised that's the EU s fault.

Business rates are the reasons why I wanted out of the EU initially, and before anybody tries to tell me otherwise, I have been all over this for years, only to be told that the EU puts everything in zones, I pay the same rates as businesses in Cardiff, which is ridiculous. The UK pay more business rates than both France and Germany combined.

But after reflection I then came to the conclusion, although it is a personal gripe of mine, it is a small part of a bigger jigsaw that shows we are better off in.

I know that we can control our business rates whilst within the EU, but we are very restricted by the rules the EU impose on us whilst doing so.

I am not going to get into the crux of it on here, it's all over the internet if you are interested, but I know the likes of Risca or BamBam will try and score cheap points off me over saying this. But I have been to meetings with my local MP and I have been to meetings with Gerlad Jones a few years back in the Senedd and I have spoken to Dawn Bowden.

They all tell me there is nothing they can do about the business rates due to the rules imposed on them by the EU.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Nov 2019, 9:40 am

Clearly they're lying/lied to you. Hood news that rugby clubs can start to employ people outside the eu though.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 15 Nov 2019, 9:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Clearly they're lying/lied to you.

They are not though, if you go and research it, there are rules imposed by the EU, that we have to stand by, although, the amount you pay can be dictated by us, but due to the rules set upon us by the EU, I am in the same zone as Cardiff, a city with 7 times more potential for business than the town I live in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Nov 2019, 9:56 am

Riiiiiiiight. So in terms of rugby are you pleased we can finally sign non eu players?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 15 Nov 2019, 10:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Riiiiiiiight. So in terms of rugby are you pleased we can finally sign non eu players?

I;ve not thought about it to be honest, I am talking about business rates. Headscratch

We should be able to sign non EU players anyway. Shouldn't we ?

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 15 Nov 2019, 10:01 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Conservatives are saying they'll cut business rates. Bizarre they cant have realised that's the EU s fault.

Business rates are the reasons why I wanted out of the EU initially, and before anybody tries to tell me otherwise, I have been all over this for years, only to be told that the EU puts everything in zones, I pay the same rates as businesses in Cardiff, which is ridiculous. The UK pay more business rates than both France and Germany combined.

But after reflection I then came to the conclusion, although it is a personal gripe of mine, it is a small part of a bigger jigsaw that shows we are better off in.

I know that we can control our business rates whilst within the EU, but we are very restricted by the rules the EU impose on us whilst doing so.

I am not going to get into the crux of it on here, it's all over the internet if you are interested, but I know the likes of Risca or BamBam will try and score cheap points off me over  saying this. But I have been to meetings with my local MP and I have been to meetings with Gerlad Jones a few years back in the Senedd and I have spoken to Dawn Bowden.

They all tell me there is nothing they can do about the business rates due to the rules imposed on them by the EU.

Interestingly we have reductions on our Business Rates in Scotland gifted by the Scottish Parliament, and an exemption down in Cambridgeshire gifted by the local council under a UK Parliamentary Scheme.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Nov 2019, 10:04 am

Steve Barclay has just said that being able to sign non eu players is a plus point for brexit though. It's almost as of these brexit bonuses are all lies.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 15 Nov 2019, 10:18 am

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Conservatives are saying they'll cut business rates. Bizarre they cant have realised that's the EU s fault.

Business rates are the reasons why I wanted out of the EU initially, and before anybody tries to tell me otherwise, I have been all over this for years, only to be told that the EU puts everything in zones, I pay the same rates as businesses in Cardiff, which is ridiculous. The UK pay more business rates than both France and Germany combined.

But after reflection I then came to the conclusion, although it is a personal gripe of mine, it is a small part of a bigger jigsaw that shows we are better off in.

I know that we can control our business rates whilst within the EU, but we are very restricted by the rules the EU impose on us whilst doing so.

I am not going to get into the crux of it on here, it's all over the internet if you are interested, but I know the likes of Risca or BamBam will try and score cheap points off me over  saying this. But I have been to meetings with my local MP and I have been to meetings with Gerlad Jones a few years back in the Senedd and I have spoken to Dawn Bowden.

They all tell me there is nothing they can do about the business rates due to the rules imposed on them by the EU.

Interestingly we have reductions on our Business Rates in Scotland gifted by the Scottish Parliament, and an exemption down in Cambridgeshire gifted by the local council under a UK Parliamentary Scheme.

Yes, local governments can adjust how much is payed, but it has to be across the zone. If they reduced my business rates, in Merthyr, then they would have to reduce the rates in Cardiff as well.

Cardiff has over 300K people living there, Merthyr has 60K people living there. You can see why they will not drop the rates in Cardiff.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 15 Nov 2019, 10:31 am

LD, our reductions were specific to our business and not applied elsewhere.

As I am sure you are aware the Business Rates you pay are a factor of the Rateable Value of the business and the "Multiplier". There are also various deductions and exemptions that can be applied to individual businesses. England, Wales, Scotland and NI each approach things differently.

In England there is a National Multiplier (with a different one for City of London). From what you say Wales have decided to go with a smaller group and apply zonal multipliers. However this is the only part that applies to all businesses in an area. If you are being charged the same as Cardiff it means the two businesses have been given the same rateable value.

The multiplier is the only thing they would have to change everywhere - but this is down to their rules it is not an EU requirement. Local decisions can be taken on a business by business level on the rateable value and any exemptions or deductions. Sadly you have to fight for this as basically the admin are too lazy to address matters unless pushed, preferring to blame those higher up. Before business rates were devolved from Westminster to the Assembly they would have blamed the UK Govt instead.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 15 Nov 2019, 10:52 am

Yes LT you are right, most of it is down to lazy barstewards.

TBH, most of what you have written above drives the evil into me, I am so fed up of discussing it, I really am. But hey ho, all I can do, is keep making money, keep my workforce happy, and try and make the best of it.

Onwards and upwards. Tally ho. Laugh

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Post by SecretFly Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:07 am

Globalism ain't responsible.
Europe ain't responsible.
National Parliaments ain't responsible.
The UN ain't responsible.
Banks ain't responsible.

.... little local mafiosi admin people is responsible for all of it!  Climate Change, Melting Ice Caps, Amazonian Rainforest Destruction, Banking Corruption, Transport Delays, Surveillance Culture, Online Bullying, Bad TV, Terrible Haircuts and bloody Dog Fashion!

Lazy little bug eyed, local, pimple-specked eejits are responsible for all of it!

Soooooooo....... the EU has no real purpose?   Great.  No guilt in Leaving so. Cool

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:20 am

SF,

We all know who is responsible.


YOU

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes Sun 17 Nov 2019, 12:01 am

SecretFly wrote:Globalism ain't responsible.
Europe ain't responsible.
National Parliaments ain't responsible.
The UN ain't responsible.
Banks ain't responsible.

.... little local mafiosi admin people is responsible for all of it!  Climate Change, Melting Ice Caps, Amazonian Rainforest Destruction, Banking Corruption, Transport Delays, Surveillance Culture, Online Bullying, Bad TV, Terrible Haircuts and bloody Dog Fashion!

Lazy little bug eyed, local, pimple-specked eejits are responsible for all of it!

Soooooooo....... the EU has no real purpose?   Great.  No guilt in Leaving so. Cool

Great. When are you leaving

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Post by SecretFly Sun 17 Nov 2019, 9:36 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Globalism ain't responsible.
Europe ain't responsible.
National Parliaments ain't responsible.
The UN ain't responsible.
Banks ain't responsible.

.... little local mafiosi admin people is responsible for all of it!  Climate Change, Melting Ice Caps, Amazonian Rainforest Destruction, Banking Corruption, Transport Delays, Surveillance Culture, Online Bullying, Bad TV, Terrible Haircuts and bloody Dog Fashion!

Lazy little bug eyed, local, pimple-specked eejits are responsible for all of it!

Soooooooo....... the EU has no real purpose?   Great.  No guilt in Leaving so. Cool

Great. When are you leaving

I never joined. Capisce?

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Post by quinsforever Thu 21 Nov 2019, 9:53 pm

BamBam wrote:I'm not sure which bit of that post refers to old people quins? It refers to the thick, not the old. Plenty of older people on the right side of this debate

Beyond blue passports and "sOvErEiGnTy", and a benefit to the monumental fishing industry, no one gives a reason to continue with this nonsense other than "leave won".
with age comes wisdom my angry young friend. thick people get wiser. smart people get wiser.

think about it.

it might take you 10-20 years to understand it. but thats ok. wisdom is earned not handed out in diplomas

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Nov 2019, 7:40 am

Thick people tend to stay thick a helluva lot of the time. People believing the lies and scaremongering from guys like johnson farage et al though are not necessarily thick.
And as I write listening to radio 4 talking to people at corby (spelling?) and people are finally expressing it's down to racism and xenophobia in a lot of cases. Too many foreigners. Quite depressing in 2019.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 22 Nov 2019, 9:28 am

Sadly Boris still does not get pulled up over his "lies". When talking about controlling our borders he is still stating that immigration into the UK has been 50/50 EU/Non EU. It has been pointed out to him that the Govt's own figures show it is 20/80.

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Post by rodders Fri 22 Nov 2019, 10:03 am

The attitude of many leave voters is all very understandable. It basically comes down to cognitive dissonance.

Despite overwhelming evidence suggesting brexit will have a very negative impact for the majority and the benefits or remain far outweigh any form of leaving, the majority of people will disregard this, as it contradicts their starting  position and to acknowledge it is to accept they were wrong in the first instance.

It's the exact same as presenting a smoker with two opposing theories - one that says smoking increases the risk of cancer and health issues and one that says it doesn't. However the overwhelming evidence is for the first theory, they are much more likely to believe the second one given the option as it fits better with their own.

It's unfair to assume working class leave voters are stupid, they just naturally gravitate to the position that based suits their own bias.

To distrust a foreigner versus someone of your own nationality and ethnicity, to blame someone else for your own lack of prosperity and to believe that there can be quick and easy solutions to complex problems, are all natural views to have and therefore it's not hard to be swayed by many of the promises presented by the leave campaigners (or trump), however ridiculous they appear to someone with a less predisposed position to believe them, and despite their being little or no evidence to support them.
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Post by LordDowlais Fri 22 Nov 2019, 10:47 am

rodders wrote:Despite overwhelming evidence suggesting brexit will have a very negative impact for the majority and the benefits or remain far outweigh any form of leaving, the majority of people will disregard this, as it contradicts their starting position and to acknowledge it is to accept they were wrong in the first instance.

Why are they wrong ?

rodders wrote:It's the exact same as presenting a smoker with two opposing theories - one that says smoking increases the risk of cancer and health issues and one that says it doesn't. However the overwhelming evidence is for the first theory, they are much more likely to believe the second one given the option as it fits better with their own.

Again, you are being very disingenuous to everyone who voted to leave. What you have just said is so wrong. There is just as much evidence to support people choice of leaving as there is to support peoples choice of remaining.

I suggest you at least try and consider both sides.

rodders wrote:It's unfair to assume working class leave voters are stupid, they just naturally gravitate to the position that based suits their own bias.

Again you are being very disingenuous, not all leave voter are working class. There is also bias on both sides.

rodders wrote:To distrust a foreigner versus someone of your own nationality and ethnicity, to blame someone else for your own lack of prosperity and to believe that there can be quick and easy solutions to complex problems, are all natural views to have and therefore it's not hard to be swayed by many of the promises presented by the leave campaigners (or trump), however ridiculous they appear to someone with a less predisposed position to believe them, and despite their being little or no evidence to support them.

So now you are accusing all the leave voters of parochialism and being bigoted ?

This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.


Your post is arrogant beyond belief, I really do not think you realise what you have written, please be a little more informed in future before you go making up all these conclusions by yourself.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:03 am

The reasons for leaving which are put forward fo tend to be varied. The majority of people I know simply want fewer immigrants. The most stupid reason I've heard is from my dad who said hed read that a small business in Cornwall hadn't been allowed to sell canoes to a Brazilian company. He thinks this is now sorted. Complete idiot.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:05 am

The lies do continue. Johnson is now talking about his even ready Brexit deal and saying vote conservative and it's all over in 6 months. Some people who dont look at detail or don't want to know will believe this: just as they believed the lies in 2016.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:07 am

Not all leavers. But enough to make a large difference.

The whole reality vs possibility (Those experts are never right so I am free to put more weight on whatever fantasy I choose to believe in) and blame culture (My life is cr@p and those guys don't look like they come around here so it must be their fault) is all too prevalent in any conversation about the subject.

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Post by rodders Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Your post is arrogant beyond belief, I really do not think you realise what you have written, please be a little more informed in future before you go making up all these conclusions by yourself.

I do understand entirely what I have written, cognitive dissonance is not my conclusion, it is well understood in psychology and neurology, and very openly manipulated by Cambridge Analytica as part of the leave campaign.

I did not say all leave voters were working class. In fact if you are James Dyson, Liam Fox or the the bloke who runs weatherspoons, you very well have a lot to gain by a more deregulated economy post brexit.

But unless there 17 odd multi millionaires with offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands living in northern post industrial towns, it's safe to assume a big percentage of the people who dragged it over the line were working class and therefore stand to be a lot worse off in pretty much every conceivable form of Brexit.
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Post by rodders Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:39 am

LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.
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Post by LordDowlais Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:47 am

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.

They have been explained quite intelligently, and very well written on this very thread by a member by the name of Big.

Go and read them, and educate yourself.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:48 am

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Your post is arrogant beyond belief, I really do not think you realise what you have written, please be a little more informed in future before you go making up all these conclusions by yourself.

I do understand entirely what I have written, cognitive dissonance is not my conclusion, it is well understood in psychology and neurology, and very openly manipulated by Cambridge Analytica as part of the leave campaign.

I did not say all leave voters were working class. In fact if you are James Dyson, Liam Fox or the the bloke who runs weatherspoons, you very well have a lot to gain by a more deregulated economy post brexit.

But unless there 17 odd multi millionaires with offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands living in northern post industrial towns, it's safe to assume a big percentage of the people who dragged it over the line were working class and therefore stand to be a lot worse off in pretty much every conceivable form of Brexit.

Well, if that is the case then, I must take it, that you are very ignorant to the cause of the people who have voted leave, and you have already made your own mind up on the situation.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:57 am

Theres not going to be fewer foreigners unless the economy goes south. Oh. There may be fewer foreigners!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:58 am

Do you think it's right though LD for the Prime Minister to be openly lying saying vote us to solve brexit in 6 months?

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Post by SecretFly Fri 22 Nov 2019, 12:04 pm

rodders wrote:it's safe to assume a big percentage of the people who dragged it over the line were working class and therefore stand to be a lot worse off in pretty much every conceivable form of Brexit.

If they are worse off, then the boys in Westminster won't be able to blame it all on EU directives, laws and overbearing bureaucracy, will they?  

Isn't that the central issue of Brexit? - forcing politicians you actually vote for on a local National level to be more accountable for the decisions they make that involves your wellbeing?  

Suggests to me Stronger democracy at work as politicians will be forced to be active in improving the lot of the people on a practical level rather than jumping on TV to endlessly talk gender identity and climate change psychobabble.  Real practical work.  Getting beneficial trade agreements, protecting workers rights, ensuring a fair spread of labour, industry and commerce through the Nation rather than concentrating it in EU loving LondonLand, cutting the spend burden on working people and communities etc etc.  Practical work.... for MPs.... or get voted out.  Real politics.

And if the politicians who are elected by the working class (as it seems there are always more of them) to accomplish things on the voter's behalf then turn around and snarl that the working class have shot themselves in the foot by voting for Brexit, the working class will cry loud and strong that if they were content with their lot in the EU they wouldn't have voted Brexit.  QED.

And if the politicians sneer and smirk that the working class didn't know how good they had it.... then they'll get voted out.  Because when you genuinely have to govern, when you haven't divested much of your governing power to a collective in Brussels, then words truly do mean something, and politicians would be more careful than now about how they use them.

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Post by rodders Fri 22 Nov 2019, 12:05 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.

They have been explained quite intelligently, and very well written on this very thread by a member by the name of Big.

Go and read them, and educate yourself.

Is that the Big above who stated he actually voted remain and had every point debunked in the following post?
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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Nov 2019, 12:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.

They have been explained quite intelligently, and very well written on this very thread by a member by the name of Big.

Go and read them, and educate yourself.

I have read them. Its a good list of concerns, but none that would require us to leave. Leaving also takes us out of having any say over these issues if we don't agree with the direction the EU is taking over them.

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Post by rodders Fri 22 Nov 2019, 12:12 pm

SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:it's safe to assume a big percentage of the people who dragged it over the line were working class and therefore stand to be a lot worse off in pretty much every conceivable form of Brexit.

Isn't that the central issue of Brexit? - forcing politicians you actually vote for on a local National level to be more accountable for the decisions they make that involves your wellbeing?  

And how exactly do you do that in a country with a FTTP electoral system and no written constitution?

The answer is via the EU.
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Post by Geen sport voor watjes Thu 05 Dec 2019, 11:21 pm

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.

They voted leave because they are xenophobic middle aged people who think that having polish plumbers who do high quality work is a threat to Blighty and it’s tradition of shoddy labour and quality (british cars anyone). It’s to put the great back in Britain. It’s the empire the raj and showing Johnny Foreigner what for.

As an Irish person and a European I sincerely hope that in a weeks time you just all feic off and have a very happy brexit so that you can live in some utopian brexitland while the rest of us live in this dystopian regime of equal rights, relatively high standard of living nightmare. Oh the tragedy of it

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:50 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.

They voted leave because they are xenophobic middle aged people who think that having polish plumbers who do high quality work is a threat to Blighty and it’s tradition of shoddy labour and quality (british cars anyone).  It’s to put the great back in Britain. It’s the empire the raj and showing Johnny Foreigner what for.  

As an Irish person and a European I sincerely hope that in a weeks time you just all feic off and have a very happy brexit so that you can live in some utopian brexitland while the rest of us live in this dystopian regime of equal rights, relatively high standard of living nightmare. Oh the tragedy of it

WOW. Shocked

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 11 Dec 2019, 11:24 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
This might surprise you, but a lot of leave voters did not vote leave because of what you think. There is a lot more to it than that.

Please enlighten me the reasons.

They voted leave because they are xenophobic middle aged people who think that having polish plumbers who do high quality work is a threat to Blighty and it’s tradition of shoddy labour and quality (british cars anyone).  It’s to put the great back in Britain. It’s the empire the raj and showing Johnny Foreigner what for.  

As an Irish person and a European I sincerely hope that in a weeks time you just all feic off and have a very happy brexit so that you can live in some utopian brexitland while the rest of us live in this dystopian regime of equal rights, relatively high standard of living nightmare. Oh the tragedy of it

Vomit inducing.

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Post by Exiledinborders Sat 14 Dec 2019, 8:23 pm

What do we think of Brexit?

After the election I think we are leaving the EU which we should have left more than a year ago. I say this as someone who voted to remain who respects other people’s votes.

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