€1.835m

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€1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 9:13 am

First topic message reminder :

That's the compensation that Mourad is claiming from World Rugby because of the Test Match Calendar and Player Release. From my very limited knowledge on this, I think that French law is on Mourad's side.

Let's hope that he wins, if for no other reason than to force a sensible rugby calendar.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Go on Phil, one business reason that the Welsh are ever going to get into a league with the English, that includes resolutions to the following points:
1 - How does the league work with four extra teams ?
2 - What happens to the Championship clubs who want to be in the Aviva - if we can take four extra Welsh teams why not expand with English clubs?
3 - Will the Welsh clubs be competitive without WRU money behind them - I assume the WRU won't spend money for them to play in an English league ?
4 - Since part of the financial agreement between the RFU and PRL is for the development of academy players and future England players, how will the Welsh fans feel about paying to develop players for England ?
5 - Where will the extra money come from to make up for a 16 way split from a 12 way split ?
6 - How will Welsh sides qualify for Europe ?
7 - Other than a brief comment from Nigel Wray is there any evidence that the PRL want Welsh sides ?

Thanks,
IL

1. Conferences or a two division system with all PRL members.
2. Few do want the expense of pro rugby, few have the facilities. Those who have both are, with the exception of London Welsh, PRL members.
3. A daft assumption. The services provided to the WRU will remain the same. If the WRU pay for services in a cross border league already, why have you made that daft assumption?
4. That's irrelevant. It's just a cross border league as we have already.
5. The broadcasters.
6. The same way they do now.
7. Other than the HoT and the constant support in the professional era when called upon, you mean?

3. Belittling again Phil, the AP doesn't allow players availability outside international windows, has an aim of developing English players and would weaken the WRUs control so seem reasonable to ask the question as there would at least be an unwillingness to fund something that is not to their benefit. Then again if they don't want it to happen they can stop it dead
4. PRW have a cross border league, the AP don't so they have an English centric approach with player development. You think they'll open that up?
5. Where's the benefit to broadcasters of a league with more teams?
6. So the Welsh will get an exception to qualify outside of the top 6? What if they are all in a lower division?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
And I had to point out that the language didn't reflect the structure picard

Just another example of Phil arguing in circles and trying to belittle instead of saying he was wrong. Phil I don't need to appear to be clever or right, I leave that to you

Nice of you to ignore the ret though, another tactic used to avoid saying you were wrong

The language is what the Kiwis use to describe their own structure, Martyn.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:31 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What benefit to the English would saving the Welsh (who are really struggling) over just taking the top Irish (with the big European standing)?

In how many threads do you expect the same question to be answered multiple times?

Once will do as long as its a sensible answer.

You've had plenty. What we've seen is your inability to comprehend them.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:32 am

marty2086 wrote:
I never said it was a set income as you well know, Munsters budget was set based on their ticket revenue to be x but they brought in the lower amount of y though their spending was not adjusted accordingly meaning they were under budget but had spent more than they raised. Funny you didn't apply your mind reading ability there champ Whistle

That doesn't make any sense.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:34 am

marty2086 wrote:

The IRFU provide the funds based on theirs and the provinces needs, as a Ulster fan I may envy Leinster and their squad but don't see it as them being favoured for success even though there are grumbles at times about favouritism the fact that Leinster are capable of having a conveyor belt of talent and  is a big part of their success. Having money and resources is all well and good but contrary to your opinion it does not guarantee success, you call others dumb yet fail to grasp that teams that are privately owned could have as much money pumped in as their owners deem fit meaning that the competition still isn't equal, the only difference is the source of the income. Maybe take a day and consider that one but then again the source is your problem rather than fairness

If you cannot grasp the simple point that equal competition allows each club to generate its OWN income then you are again failing to understand basic English. One entity controlling four teams and setting them up unequally is, by definition, creating imbalanced competition.

Why do you think that proper professional leagues prevent one entity from owning more than one competitor?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:34 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
And I had to point out that the language didn't reflect the structure picard

Just another example of Phil arguing in circles and trying to belittle instead of saying he was wrong. Phil I don't need to appear to be clever or right, I leave that to you

Nice of you to ignore the ret though, another tactic used to avoid saying you were wrong

The language is what the Kiwis use to describe their own structure, Martyn.

Im getting dizzy going round in circles Erm

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:36 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
I never said it was a set income as you well know, Munsters budget was set based on their ticket revenue to be x but they brought in the lower amount of y though their spending was not adjusted accordingly meaning they were under budget but had spent more than they raised. Funny you didn't apply your mind reading ability there champ Whistle

That doesn't make any sense.

Everyone else grasp this?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:36 am

marty2086 wrote:
Im getting dizzy going round in circles Erm

Me too, mate. I think that we've both made our points.


(Repeatedly....!)

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:38 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The IRFU provide the funds based on theirs and the provinces needs, as a Ulster fan I may envy Leinster and their squad but don't see it as them being favoured for success even though there are grumbles at times about favouritism the fact that Leinster are capable of having a conveyor belt of talent and  is a big part of their success. Having money and resources is all well and good but contrary to your opinion it does not guarantee success, you call others dumb yet fail to grasp that teams that are privately owned could have as much money pumped in as their owners deem fit meaning that the competition still isn't equal, the only difference is the source of the income. Maybe take a day and consider that one but then again the source is your problem rather than fairness

If you cannot grasp the simple point that equal competition allows each club to generate its OWN income then you are again failing to understand basic English. One entity controlling four teams and setting them up unequally is, by definition, creating imbalanced competition.

Why do you think that proper professional leagues prevent one entity from owning more than one competitor?

Proper? 'denoting something that is truly what it is said or regarded to be; genuine'

As has been pointed out, the IRFU don't own the provinces but you ignore that because it doesn't fit your obsessed narrative

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:44 am

marty2086 wrote:
As has been pointed out, the IRFU don't own the provinces but you ignore that because it doesn't fit your obsessed narrative

OK.

So who owns the branches?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:46 am

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
2 - What happens to the Championship clubs who want to be in the Aviva - if we can take four extra Welsh teams why not expand with English clubs?


2. Few do want the expense of pro rugby, few have the facilities. Those who have both are, with the exception of London Welsh, PRL members.

I take it your first sentence there has been duly researched and you have statements from all Championship sides, most of them saying they don't want to go up a grade in earning potential and development?

If, as you state, the inclusion of four more Welsh teams in an enlarged PRL's AP would lead to a sizeable increase in funding for all from broadcasting, why wouldn't the PRL/RFU simply increase the number of Championship sides in the top competition and use some of that extra funding that an enlarged league would attract to encourage development of facilities, etc etc?

Why should they/would they tell their own clubs there is no room for them at the top because the Welsh want to be saved from oblivion instead?

BTW, would the PRW have to merge with PRL?  Or would they argue to remain a distinct entity onto themselves, merely representing the concerns and goals of four privately owned clubs within the AP?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:52 am

SecretFly wrote:

I take it your first sentence there has been duly researched and you have statements from all Championship sides, most of them saying they don't want to go up a grade in earning potential and development?

If, as you state, the inclusion of four more Welsh teams in an enlarged PRL's AP would lead to a sizeable increase in funding for all from broadcasting, why wouldn't the PRL/RFU simply increase the number of Championship sides in the top competition and use some of that extra funding that an enlarged league would attract to encourage development of facilities, etc etc?

Why should they/would they tell their own clubs there is no room for them at the top because the Welsh want to be saved from oblivion instead?

BTW, would the PRW have to merge with PRL?  Or would they argue to remain a distinct entity onto themselves, merely representing the concerns and goals of four privately owned clubs within the AP?

Most don't have the facilities to go up or the income to invest in the necessary facilities, or the income to cover the losses made at the top end.

The uplift from the broadcaster would be for the different market and different product the AW would bring. Adding Ealing Trailfinders and Rotherham won't bring either of those elements.

PRL want to ring fence the top league already.

Under the present set up with World Rugby, it wouldn't be prudent for PRL and PRW to fully merge although the obvious route would be to go to form a management company together.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:54 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
As has been pointed out, the IRFU don't own the provinces but you ignore that because it doesn't fit your obsessed narrative

OK.

So who owns the branches?

I'll give up waiting.

Browne says that the shareholders in the branches are the clubs. This is why he says the branches can't be sold off. That statement, of course, doesn't stand to scrutiny.

The IRFU control the professional teams and the Branch set up completely, from appointing and employing the Chief Execs to controlling and employing the squads etc.

We all know that.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:55 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
As has been pointed out, the IRFU don't own the provinces but you ignore that because it doesn't fit your obsessed narrative

OK.

So who owns the branches?

Philip Browne wrote:The shareholders in each branch are the clubs, that’s the way it is

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:56 am

PhilBB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
As has been pointed out, the IRFU don't own the provinces but you ignore that because it doesn't fit your obsessed narrative

OK.

So who owns the branches?

I'll give up waiting.

Browne says that the shareholders in the branches are the clubs. This is why he says the branches can't be sold off. That statement, of course, doesn't stand to scrutiny.

The IRFU control the professional teams and the Branch set up completely, from appointing and employing the Chief Execs to controlling and employing the squads etc.

We all know that.

Which is how it is in NZ yet you say they are privately owned, all very coherent logic

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:59 am

[/quote]
1. Conferences or a two division system with all PRL members.
2. Few do want the expense of pro rugby, few have the facilities. Those who have both are, with the exception of London Welsh, PRL members.
3. A daft assumption. The services provided to the WRU will remain the same. If the WRU pay for services in a cross border league already, why have you made that daft assumption?
4. That's irrelevant. It's just a cross border league as we have already.
5. The broadcasters.
6. The same way they do now.
7. Other than the HoT and the constant support in the professional era when called upon, you mean? [/quote]

1. England already has a two division system, it's called the Premiership and Championship complete with promotion and relegation - as a matter of interest where would a relegated Welsh region go ? Into the Championship ?
2. I'd suggest that at the very least, Leeds, London Irish, London Welsh, Doncaster,and Nottingham all have the structure and ambition to play professionally and if there was TV money splashing about you could probably add a few others, e.g. Jersey, Bedford and London Scottish.
3. The WRU pay for a league they have a stake in, they would have no say in how any league run by the PRL/RFU would be organised, would the SWALEC clubs and the rest of the pyramid be happy for money to flow out of Wales to teams playing in England ?
4. Why is this irrelevant ? It's the keystone of the agreement between the RFU and PRL.
5. Why would any broadcaster pay extra for Welsh teams - the high quality rugby, the huge crowds ? If you remember back to the whole BT Sport row and the ERC row the argument about the money was based on viewers - are there enough additional viewers in Wales to justify a 20-25% increase in the amount of money paid in TV rights ?
6. Are you sure about this, do you think that the seventh placed English club will be happy to see a Welsh club three places below it go into the Champions Cup when they go into the lower competition ? After all as Mr Wray pointed out during the ERC debacle European places should be based on position not nationality.
7. What constant support from England - all I've ever seen is a few comments from a couple of chairmen looking to tease you during the ERC negotiations?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:00 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Which is how it is in NZ yet you say they are privately owned, all very coherent logic

Mate, have a look at the shareholders for the Super Rugby Franchises. Please, at least do yourself that favour.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:04 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Which is how it is in NZ yet you say they are privately owned, all very coherent logic

Mate, have a look at the shareholders for the Super Rugby Franchises. Please, at least do yourself that favour.

And there you have a statement saying who the shareholders in the provinces are yet argue the opposite Rolling Eyes

'There are plenty of contenders for the Highlanders and Crusaders jobs, and NZ Rugby boss Steve Tew confirmed they would be filled by Kiwis. He all but ruled an overseas heavyweight stepping into one or both of the roles.

"We're not opposed to an overseas coach, but when you look at the depth of coaching around the world represented by Kiwis it would be an unusual call to find someone that's not a New Zealander given the number of New Zealand coaches that coach elsewhere," he said'

The shareholders there really getting their say

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:07 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

1. England already has a two division system, it's called the Premiership and Championship complete with promotion and relegation - as a matter of interest where would a relegated Welsh region go ? Into the Championship ?
2. I'd suggest that at the very least, Leeds, London Irish, London Welsh, Doncaster,and Nottingham all have the structure and ambition to play professionally and if there was TV money splashing about you could probably add a few others, e.g. Jersey, Bedford and London Scottish.
3. The WRU pay for a league they have a stake in, they would have no say in how any league run by the PRL/RFU would be organised, would the SWALEC clubs and the rest of the pyramid be happy for money to flow out of Wales to teams playing in England ?
4. Why is this irrelevant ? It's the keystone of the agreement between the RFU and PRL.
5. Why would any broadcaster pay extra for Welsh teams - the high quality rugby, the huge crowds ? If you remember back to the whole BT Sport row and the ERC row the argument about the money was based on viewers - are there enough additional viewers in Wales to justify a 20-25% increase in the amount of money paid in TV rights ?
6. Are you sure about this, do you think that the seventh placed English club will be happy to see a Welsh club three places below it go into the Champions Cup when they go into the lower competition ? After all as Mr Wray pointed out during the ERC debacle European places should be based on position not nationality.
7. What constant support from England - all I've ever seen is a few comments from a couple of chairmen looking to tease you during the ERC negotiations?

1. No, they presently have a multi divisional set up. This would replace that. If two decisions, there'd be two divisions.
2. Some of those are PRL members, so please keep up. Bedford have previously expressed a desire to not be promoted. You're right to point that it could be a 20 team set up.
3. Why would you assume that the WRU wouldn't have a stake in the league? There's no problem with money 'flowing out of Wales' for teams playing in a cross border league now. Nothing would change in that regard.
4. It's irrelevant as it wouldn't affect Welsh teams.
5. BT Sport are already pumping money into PRW. BBC Wales already pays £4m a year to broadcast the Welsh teams. The money is clearly there.
6. Erm, the present set up is by league, not solely by nationality.
7. Then learn your rugby history.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:07 pm

marty2086 wrote:

And there you have a statement saying who the shareholders in the provinces are yet argue the opposite Rolling Eyes

'There are plenty of contenders for the Highlanders and Crusaders jobs, and NZ Rugby boss Steve Tew confirmed they would be filled by Kiwis. He all but ruled an overseas heavyweight stepping into one or both of the roles.

"We're not opposed to an overseas coach, but when you look at the depth of coaching around the world represented by Kiwis it would be an unusual call to find someone that's not a New Zealander given the number of New Zealand coaches that coach elsewhere," he said'

The shareholders there really getting their say

Did you look to see who the shareholders are in the Super Rugby Franchises, Martyn?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:
3. Belittling again Phil, the AP doesn't allow players availability outside international windows, has an aim of developing English players and would weaken the WRUs control so seem reasonable to ask the question as there would at least be an unwillingness to fund something that is not to their benefit. Then again if they don't want it to happen they can stop it dead
4. PRW have a cross border league, the AP don't so they have an English centric approach with player development. You think they'll open that up?
5. Where's the benefit to broadcasters of a league with more teams?
6. So the Welsh will get an exception to qualify outside of the top 6? What if they are all in a lower division?

3. We have a model for a cross border league. There's no reason to assume a PRW/PRL league wouldn't operate for the benefit of all parties.
4. You seem to have joined the conflation ship, which is odd. Wales teams develop Wales players, England teams develop England players. It's not rocket science.
5. More fixtures, more quality, wider markets, more appeal.
6. They'll get their one spot, or maybe none. Maybe they'll negotiate it away for the greater rewards elsewhere. So much to be decided.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:11 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

And there you have a statement saying who the shareholders in the provinces are yet argue the opposite Rolling Eyes

'There are plenty of contenders for the Highlanders and Crusaders jobs, and NZ Rugby boss Steve Tew confirmed they would be filled by Kiwis. He all but ruled an overseas heavyweight stepping into one or both of the roles.

"We're not opposed to an overseas coach, but when you look at the depth of coaching around the world represented by Kiwis it would be an unusual call to find someone that's not a New Zealander given the number of New Zealand coaches that coach elsewhere," he said'

The shareholders there really getting their say

Did you look to see who the shareholders are in the Super Rugby Franchises, Martyn?

I didn't because...

'The Hurricanes and Crusaders Super Rugby teams will be managed by investor-appointed boards from next year as the New Zealand Rugby Union takes its first steps toward private ownership of the franchises. '

First steps towards? Headscratch

'The NZRU said today a license to manage the Hurricanes from 2013 had been awarded to a consortium led by the Wellington Rugby Union and including a number of high-profile business people. '

Who the shareholders in the companies managing them are is irrelevant, its who owns the teams that matters

I notice you didn't address your inconsistent logic..typical Rolling Eyes

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:

PRL want to ring fence the top league already.


Yes.  So they'd want 16 rather than a much more meaty 12 like they already have or 14 like the French.

So the Welsh would be offered a 2nd tier/League to entertain themselves in....and they'd be happy?   Which sides currently in AP can any of the Regions offer a better deal than as part of a 12 or 14 side ring fenced League?

And just how popular would PRL be (again) with any of the four sides currently in there, or their fans, if they were told they have to drop down to Championship to let the Welsh sides in - PLUS - "you're not getting any quick step chance of getting back in either.  We're closing the gate for a few years."

You think the European Rugby War was bad???

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Who the shareholders in the companies managing them are is irrelevant, its who owns the teams that matters

I notice you didn't address your inconsistent logic..

I'll leave that there, for all to digest.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
3. Belittling again Phil, the AP doesn't allow players availability outside international windows, has an aim of developing English players and would weaken the WRUs control so seem reasonable to ask the question as there would at least be an unwillingness to fund something that is not to their benefit. Then again if they don't want it to happen they can stop it dead
4. PRW have a cross border league, the AP don't so they have an English centric approach with player development. You think they'll open that up?
5. Where's the benefit to broadcasters of a league with more teams?
6. So the Welsh will get an exception to qualify outside of the top 6? What if they are all in a lower division?

3. We have a model for a cross border league. There's no reason to assume a PRW/PRL league wouldn't operate for the benefit of all parties.
4. You seem to have joined the conflation ship, which is odd. Wales teams develop Wales players, England teams develop England players. It's not rocket science.
5. More fixtures, more quality, wider markets, more appeal.
6. They'll get their one spot, or maybe none. Maybe they'll negotiate it away for the greater rewards elsewhere. So much to be decided.

3. You mean other than the English already have a good setup that works for them?
4. But both do it differently, you think PRL will be happy for PRW to operate their own system or WRU conforming to the English way of doing things?
5. Funny the consensus seems to be less fixtures are needed
6. Or maybe PRW will get the door slammed in their face and told to go away

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Who the shareholders in the companies managing them are is irrelevant, its who owns the teams that matters

I notice you didn't address your inconsistent logic..

I'll leave that there, for all to digest.

Why not leave the quote about how the teams are managed on the NZRUs behalf too? That so you can make it seem like you were right rather than wrong? OK

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:24 pm

I wish we could link up all the threads Phil contributes to - 'cause let's face it it's only ever about Pro12 and IRFU.

So it would be handier to link the few threads he's chatting on.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:The uplift from the broadcaster would be for the different market and different product the AW would bring. Adding Ealing Trailfinders and Rotherham won't bring either of those elements.

Hey English Championship clubs don't bother anymore with developing your squads, your community work, your position as the bastions of Rugby Union in the northern League heartlands, and your pointless aspirations to play at the highest level, the Welsh have spoken, you're out we're in !

With this level of arrogance you sure you're not a Kiwi ?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

With this level of arrogance you sure you're not a Kiwi ?

I think he's either Stephen Jones (who doesn't speak to savage Irish sorts unless incognito Whistle)  or he's one of our own - DOD, a man of the past well up to a trick to laugh his heart out at.

Or he's just Phil.  "F**k the Italians", "F**k the Scots", F-U-C-K the Irish, F**k the English (Championship sides)..... please let us in to AP!!!!"

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/nz-franchises-to-be-licensed-from-2013/

'The successful Licensee will have the right to manage, operate, select and promote the team/brand and the matches played by that team. Under the Licensee proposal, the NZRU will continue to own the brands and be responsible for contracting players and coaches.'

Phil, will we finally get an acknowledgement of being wrong or will we get your usual bs?

Im holding my breath here so be quick censored

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Re: €1.835m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What benefit to the English would saving the Welsh (who are really struggling) over just taking the top Irish (with the big European standing)?

In how many threads do you expect the same question to be answered multiple times?

Once will do as long as its a sensible answer.

You've had plenty. What we've seen is your inability to comprehend them.

Nope, still waiting. Every thread, you can never back it up.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:49 pm

This guy is just rehashing arguments from Chunky, he's not even original.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Munchkin on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

What 'weak structural difficulties'? Sure you're not confusing the Irish model with the Welsh?

No, the reality is that you will fold. End of. Your dream of moving across the bridge is fantasy, Phil. There's pills for this sort of delusion.

What Irish nightmare? Irish rugby is doing just fine, and in the face of present challenges. True that if the PRO12 folded it would present a massive challenge, but just as much, if not more so, to the WRU and the Regions. It isn't going to happen though. The Regions can't survive without it, and neither can the rest of us.

Keep trying in vain to pull the life support plug out, Phil. As fruitless as your agenda is, it does provide amusement Hug

You missed out a comma. His moan that he couldn't sell of the pro teams because of the structural difficulties of ownership was weak.

If PRW fold, the IRFU have no opposition, as you've noted. You need PRW. PRW don't necessarily need the IRFU.

It's not me pulling the plug, champ. Not me.

The Regions are as dependent on the Provinces as the Provinces are dependent on the regions. Your only counter to that is your delusion of joining the English, but that's all it is - imagination not reality. You can desperately cling on to your delusion as long as you like, Phil, but nobody is taking you seriously.

Oh, the Regions will never pull the plug, Phil, as much as you would like them to. Unlike you they see the reality. The Regions have no alternative.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:32 pm

Phil's fantasy's are very entertaining.

Phil just because you think it dosent make it so

The RFU don't want a cross border league. They are happy with the english league they have.

The PRL don't want an AW league.

The broadcasters. Well I doubt they will bankroll one, and they can't go setting one up without RFU or PRL who as discussed don't want one

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:44 pm

Still no reason other than "because" then Phil ?


Last edited by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

How's about thinking of success for a moment.

Irish Provinces were given a challenge - work for it.  Work for rewards - harder.  And so far they've found it a challenge in European terms, especially with some central players leaving almost all at the same time.  But they've also taken up the challenge - top of the Pro12 and four sides straight into Europe.  That Won't happen every season but they've accepted the challenge of working within the Pro12 to achieve the same kind of goals they've set themselves in the past - under a new set of rules.

So Welsh rugby - after a blip and some in-fighting - they too have a chance to emerge from a run of bad times and use the new rules and regulations to push on and meet the challenge set by Leagues outside our own.

Given how well Connacht have played this season, given the need to play well and given the style they've used - given too how Glasgow play and given how Ulster have been playing at the tail end of the season - can we imagine how strong and visually stimulating the Pro12 would be on a passion rating if three or four Welsh Regions came back up quickly and played with the same fire (as I fully believe they will)?

Don't tell me Rugby fans wouldn't be interested in the quality that Connacht, Glasgow now play, that Ulster were approaching, that Leinster proved they've already played at and can again, that Ospreys and Blues or Dragons can certainly reach, that Munster are famous for.  They would.  But all sides must come at it 100%.  No waiting for something better.  Attack the competition we have and the talent is there to make the Pro12 viable on every level.

The WRU must themselves voluntarily Stop putting International before the Regions.  Give the Regions the assistance they need to fire up and as an added bonus the Welsh International side might actually achieve even more than they've already done to date - which is quite a lot for a Nation of its size.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:Don't tell me Rugby fans wouldn't be interested in the quality that Connacht, Glasgow now play, that Ulster were approaching, that Leinster proved they've already played at and can again, that Ospreys and Blues or Dragons can certainly reach, that Munster are famous for.  They would.  But all sides must come at it 100%.  No waiting for something better.  Attack the competition we have and the talent is there to make the Pro12 viable on every level.

I think the problem is more about Welsh fans not wanting to watch the regions, regardless of if they are playing Ulster or Saracens, for all sorts of reasons the regions don't seem to work, hence the clutching at straws such as joining the Aviva as a panacea for their ills, IMHO fans who won't come to watch Leinster are not going to come to watch Sale or Worcester.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Dai Llewod on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:How's about thinking of success for a moment.

Irish Provinces were given a challenge - work for it.  Work for rewards - harder.  And so far they've found it a challenge in European terms, especially with some central players leaving almost all at the same time.  But they've also taken up the challenge - top of the Pro12 and four sides straight into Europe.  That Won't happen every season but they've accepted the challenge of working within the Pro12 to achieve the same kind of goals they've set themselves in the past - under a new set of rules.

So Welsh rugby - after a blip and some in-fighting - they too have a chance to emerge from a run of bad times and use the new rules and regulations to push on and meet the challenge set by Leagues outside our own.

Given how well Connacht have played this season, given the need to play well and given the style they've used - given too how Glasgow play and given how Ulster have been playing at the tail end of the season - can we imagine how strong and visually stimulating the Pro12 would be on a passion rating if three or four Welsh Regions came back up quickly and played with the same fire (as I fully believe they will)?

Don't tell me Rugby fans wouldn't be interested in the quality that Connacht, Glasgow now play, that Ulster were approaching, that Leinster proved they've already played at and can again, that Ospreys and Blues or Dragons can certainly reach, that Munster are famous for.  They would.  But all sides must come at it 100%.  No waiting for something better.  Attack the competition we have and the talent is there to make the Pro12 viable on every level.

The WRU must themselves voluntarily Stop putting International before the Regions.  Give the Regions the assistance they need to fire up and as an added bonus the Welsh International side might actually achieve even more than they've already done to date - which is quite a lot for a Nation of its size.

Is that really a correct assessment though? Sure there are good points to the Pro12, and good luck to Connacht they have played well and deserve it, but is "everything in place to make it viable on every level?" There seems an awful lot of difference in the money generated by the Pro12 and the English and the French. Doesn't that then filter both upwards and downwards in terms of rugby structures which will affect both domestic and international rugby? In terms of the difference between France and England, it could be quite large medium to long term.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:34 pm

My point was that if people stop looking over their shoulder, always waiting for a new plan that will always bring more money; if they truly stop all that mental delay tactics and become motivated by the challenges of the competition they're in - give it 100% effort, give it real intensity - castigate any players deemed to be 'lolling' through their season waiting for Boss Gatland's orders on the side - then yes, I believe it would be a potent League that would attract more viewers/better sponsorship etc.
The problem is fans see through bluffs and they know not all sides are giving it the full whack.  If some of the sides are dubious about their intentions within the League then why should fans be expected to turn up and pay money?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:45 pm

The problem with that approach is if phills Cardiff still active nothing he wont have anyone else to blame.
I think this is what it comes down to. Cardiff not being good enough and he needs someone to blame, so it's rogers fault, it's the league, it's definitely the Irish's fault.
The league aint good enough for us but will be b better with the english.

It's a weird logic

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 3:07 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:Is that really a correct assessment though? Sure there are good points to the Pro12, and good luck to Connacht they have played well and deserve it, but is "everything in place to make it viable on every level?" There seems an awful lot of difference in the money generated by the Pro12 and the English and the French. Doesn't that then filter both upwards and downwards in terms of rugby structures which will affect both domestic and international rugby? In terms of the difference between France and England, it could be quite large medium to long term.

Short answer is that it's about numbers - there simply aren't enough people who watch PRO12 rugby on TV to make a better deal worthwhile for SKY/BT Sport. The product doesn't matter its about viewers and subscribers - hence PRO12 is up there with rugby league and WWE as space filler until the football season starts.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 4:10 pm

1. No, they presently have a multi divisional set up. This would replace that. If two decisions, there'd be two divisions.
So you'd want PRL to kill the whole English league set up (the largest sporting pyramid scheme anywhere - from Yorkshire Five to the Avivia) to suit four Welsh teams ?
2. Some of those are PRL members, so please keep up. Bedford have previously expressed a desire to not be promoted. You're right to point that it could be a 20 team set up.
The only Championship side currently with PRL voting rights are London Irish, Leeds have sold theirs to Worcester. Bedford expressed a that this season, if all the money you talk about is available that may make them change their minds ? Also you think that the other Championship sides will just let this happen ? Even with two divisions then - Welsh teams going into the bottom (Championship) level I presume ?
3. Why would you assume that the WRU wouldn't have a stake in the league? There's no problem with money 'flowing out of Wales' for teams playing in a cross border league now. Nothing would change in that regard.
Because it's an English owned and controlled league, rather like the FA have no say over what happens to Berwick Rangers who play in the Scottish League. On the other hand the WRU and RRW are stakeholders in the PRO12.
4. It's irrelevant as it wouldn't affect Welsh teams.
Actually it would, the RFU give the AP clubs a lot of funding in return for the player development, the Welsh clubs won't get any of that unless they agree to develop players for England, therefore the Welsh sides are already financially behind the English ones in the same league - if they ever were allowed in.
5. BT Sport are already pumping money into PRW. BBC Wales already pays £4m a year to broadcast the Welsh teams. The money is clearly there.
The BT Sport deal is dependent on exclusivity - the BBC £4 million would not be there for them. Secondly you're assuming that more teams means a bigger pie rather than the same pie sliced into more pieces.
6. Erm, the present set up is by league, not solely by nationality.
Yes as a combined league all the PRO12 nations get a European Cup place, if Wales pools its places with the Aviva it's teams would have to get there through league position (much beloved of Mr Wray) so there would be no Welsh sides in Europe for at least one season maybe more.
7. Then learn your rugby history.
My rugby history is more about the great games and players than the supposed details of financial agreements that neither you nor I have ever seen, off the record conversations which may never have taken place and no sign of any firm proposal from anyone in the English side to bring the Welsh in.
Final comment, just give me on actual reason, based on stated facts (not your usual response of go and look it up - if the evidence is there can you please post it) that suggests there is any appetite for the Welsh to join the Avivia from the RFU, the PRL as a body or the majority of English clubs or any desire from the WRU to let them ?

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Re: €1.835m

Post by wolfball on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:This guy is just rehashing arguments from Chunky, he's not even original.

They are the same people, no? Their posting styles are identical.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by marty2086 on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:34 am

wolfball wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:This guy is just rehashing arguments from Chunky, he's not even original.

They are the same people, no? Their posting styles are identical.

No, Phil has a unique arrogance about him

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Re: €1.835m

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 12:03 pm

Has anyone read Phil's blog?  He put up an article recently and there was a link to his place.  So, since I'd never been, I took a trip to see the territory Wink.  I read a few articles.

Just goes to show you how different we all are in different forums - how different our style is dependent on the situation.  We can have our style of writing away from the crowd, we can then have our conversational style, when retorts and different arguments compete against us in real-time - and then we can have our real-life personalities away from the often loud and proud internet identities - which can often be so different to those online monsters too.

When Phil is talking to himself, as it were (an article - no constant feedback) he seems reasoned and composed, and expresses his points lucidly, and goes through them methodically, and comes to his conclusions temperately.

It must be only in conversation that his patience evaporates and he melts into put-downs and stroppiness.

A passionate man no doubt - with obvious passionate views on the nature and future of rugby in his Nation.

So I guess he takes more new respect from me than I might have been ready to offer him anytime in the past.

But he must realise that we all have a horse in the race as regards passionate allegiance to the survival of viable rugby in our own Nations, and we're a passionate bunch too - thus why we don't take it lightly when the blame for all things 'bad' is dropped onto the word 'Irish' when talking about most things in Pro12, from organisation to refs.

Don't blame us, Phil, for being more like you than you're maybe prepared to admit.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 1:08 pm

Just been on there - rather good and very realistic about the state of Welsh rugby, good piece about the idea of a "fifth region" and why it would never work.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:31 am

Cheers for the thoughts and insults, bois. I've made my point clearly on way too many threads for it to be interesting any longer.

I have my belief about what is best for Welsh rugby and I've yet to read a reasoned counter argument that challenges that belief. I've argued with a few of you on here and, in differing measures, been met with inaccuracies, the arrogance of stupidity, mocking, loathing, fear and general silliness. That's fair enough, I give (sometimes more) as good as I get.

Let's see what the future brings for our game.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:This guy is just rehashing arguments from Chunky, he's not even original.

Finally, on this point, the viewpoint is not original. It is not meant to be original. It's common sense and a commonly held view.

'Chunky' is a poster from Gwlad. I am not Chunky.

I hope that clears up the final confusion.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:19 am

Didn't say you were, just rehasing stuff from Chunky.

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Re: €1.835m

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:21 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't say you were, just rehasing stuff  from Chunky.

Because he was probably right and was only expressing a commonly held, well researched, view point.

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Re: €1.835m

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