Australia v England, 18 June

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

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Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Austra10      Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Englan10
AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
18 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
AAMI Park, Melbourne

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

45 Played 45
25 Won 19
1 Drawn 1
19 Lost 25
968 Points 713

B. Recent Form

11 June 2016 - Suncorp, Brisbane: Australia 28–39 England

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Roos10
Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; James Slipper, Stephen Moore (capt), Sekope Kepu, Rory Arnold, Sam Carter, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, Sean McMahon.

Replacements (three to be omitted): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Leali'ifano, Luke Morahan

ENGLAND
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Lion10


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:EnglandGlory would love Clifford at 12 at least!

Very Happy Yahoo Whistle Very Happy Yahoo clap kiss laughing

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

Rugby Fan wrote:There has been a ton of analysis of last weekend's match, much more than I can recall for any 6N fixture, or even England's World Cup games.

In particular, Green and Gold have had at least a couple of gif-heavy features, and there must be at least a dozen accounts of aspects of the game on The Roar. I also liked that piece on the Irish site linked above.

You don't have to agree with their analysis to recognise that it can all add to appreciation of the sport. It makes some of the guff offered up by the UK papers look weak beer by comparison.


The quality of the analysis of rugby and cricket has dropped off in the Times and Telegraph in recent times - in part driven by what people look at when they go to their online sports news. Even for those papers the clicks on Football are stratospheric while the interest in the more middle class sports of Rugby and Cricket are negligible.

Will try and find the academic paper I saw n this and post the details.


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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

Going forward yes. I think it's fine, defensively it's a bit weak but then again Farrell at 12 isn't exactly a rock either.

Would putting Yarde on the bench as an extra back strengthen our defence? No of course not. Slade or T'eo as an extra back would hold their own risks too.

Always going to be vulnerable to an Aussie backline because they are that bloody good. The trick is to limit their possession and importance by keeping them on the backfoot. It's up to the English forwards to do that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:31 am

Ok, honestly thoguht you would put the boot into that! I've been a big Daly fan for a while but never seen him play 12 before. I hope he doesn't have to play 79 mins there.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok, honestly thoguht you would put the boot into that!

Some may argue that would have required a certain level of consistency in argument.

Run

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:40 am

no 7 & 1/2 I am not saying it's ideal but England don't exactly have many 12 options do they?

Shoehorning in 10s into the 12 shirt, bringing in an Aussie RL player etc.

To be honest the best 12 option we have is probably Mallinder but ironically he's been shoehorned into the 10 shirt for the U20s.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:44 am

So prediction time people.

Aus 28 Eng 13 for me

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:47 am

Would have preferred Slade or T'eo there. Not entirely convinced that Daly has the required game for 12. Leaves us a bit short. Just thought it would have bugged you given you hated having Brown as cover for wing.

Mallinder is a good option going forward but again you surely wouldn't want a debut at 12 vs Aussies away would you? Bad enough having to put daly there for the first time, but I hear he did well in training.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:47 am

Depends a bit on the start LT and a bit of luck with the bench cover. Aus by 5 I think.

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Post by dgttaylor on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:55 am

Obviously want a series win but Australia winning tomorrow will really make my trip to Sydney next weekend interesting...

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:04 am

I have been trying to work out what is going to happen on Saturday. I had toyed with the scenario that we are loosing until Itoje takes off and flies fast enough around the world to reverse time so that we can make the right decisions to win.

But what is only marginally more likely is that the game ceases to be a contest after Lawes is given a YC for a late tackle and Australia run all over us. However such is the injury crisis that they are down to 4th and 5th choices for the last test and we walk it winning the series 2-1

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

Being more serious its really hard to call. On the face of things Cheika knew his forwards got beat last week so has gone with an even lighter 8 this time around. It feels like a massive gamble and must depend hugely on the performance of the tight 5 (and Fardy in particular), and sadly, most importantly, Joubert. If we can (and most importantly are allowed to) slow ball at the rucks we'll probably be OK. If Australia get lots of quick ball it could be painful.

I think our defense will be better but at the end of the day its all but impossible to stop Australia scoring tries at some point. If we can keep those tries to 5 points instead of 7 that will be a good thing. If we can control where the game is played and smash up their forwards for 80 minutes we'll probably win.


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:15 am

Do we all agree that this Aussie team is better than the 2013 version?

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:40 am

no 7 & 1/2 as I said the alternatives of Te'eo or Slade would not feel me with confidence either. No we wouldn't want a debutant at 12 vs the Aussies, the cupboard is bare at 12 for England.

I think England will win again. England 27-18 Australia

Australia will score tries but think England will have too much in the forwards for the full 80. Physically it will be a big test for the Aussies forwards. England have reinforcements on the bench too that should hopefully ramp up the pressure too.

The last week will have given England confidence and put elements of doubt into the Aussies. Always easier to come into a game off the back of a win than a loss IMO. England have won all their games under Jones and co.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:There has been a ton of analysis of last weekend's match, much more than I can recall for any 6N fixture, or even England's World Cup games.

In particular, Green and Gold have had at least a couple of gif-heavy features, and there must be at least a dozen accounts of aspects of the game on The Roar. I also liked that piece on the Irish site linked above.

You don't have to agree with their analysis to recognise that it can all add to appreciation of the sport. It makes some of the guff offered up by the UK papers look weak beer by comparison.


The quality of the analysis of rugby and cricket has dropped off in the Times and Telegraph in recent times - in part driven by what people look at when they go to their online sports news. Even for those papers the clicks on Football are stratospheric while the interest in the more middle class sports of Rugby and Cricket are negligible.

Will try and find the academic paper I saw n this and post the details.
The Times and Telegraph have missed a trick by still relying so heavily on former players and leading coaches. Over the last few years, there's been a revolution in video analysis and statistics compilation which all leading teams use. Frequently, it's some of the guys doing this work - mostly out of the public eye - who are coming up with the stuff which appears on blogs and analysis sites.

There's still a place for ex-pros - not least because some are fine readers of the game, or engaging characters - but supporters have a wider appetite than the the old rugby media stalwarts recognise.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:44 am

The same could be said of the BBC.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:54 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The same could be said of the BBC.

Should get Tom Jones to be the new Welsh pundit for the 6 nations.... Run notworthy

Get Prince Harry for England.

Sean Connery for Scotland of course though he'll have to get a private jet over from USA.

Rory Mcilrory for Ireland.


It's pipe dream of course but spicing up the commentary would be interesting.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:57 am

That's Sir Tom Jones to you, boyo.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:59 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Sir Tom Jones to you, boyo.

"It's not unusual to get stuffed by Enger-lund"....

Hoping anyway Run

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:01 pm

Technically, is he not Sir Thomas Woodward?

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:18 pm

Apologies Luckless pedestrian you are right -it's Sir Tom and Sir Sean.

Interesting Londontiger didn't know that. Sir Tom isn't distantly related to that English rugby coach who got knighted is he?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:25 pm

Almost certainly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:43 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 as I said the alternatives of Te'eo or Slade would not feel me with confidence either. No we wouldn't want a debutant at 12 vs the Aussies, the cupboard is bare at 12 for England.

I think England will win again.  England 27-18 Australia

Australia will score tries but think England will have too much in the forwards for the full 80. Physically it will be a big test for the Aussies forwards. England have reinforcements on the bench too that should hopefully ramp up the pressure too.

The last week will have given England confidence and put elements of doubt into the Aussies. Always easier to come into a game off the back of a win than a loss IMO. England have won all their games under Jones and co.

Think there's a few good options there better than Daly though. Midfield looks to be a n increasing area of strength.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:30 pm

Worth remembering that one of the reasons for the incredibly lop sided stats in the 2nd half is that pretty much every time that England got into the Australian half they got points (and scored quickly).

There must be a fair few question marks over the Australian defense.

Interesting times

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:31 pm

laughing Laugh Good options. An untried Aussie RL player whose been fast tracked into England without having played in the AP, another player whose unproven at 10,12 and 13 and struggled in the AP final after coming back from an injury he doesn't seem to have fully recovered from yet.

These guys have to prove themselves before being proclaimed as good options ahead to Daly.

Smacks of desperation. Hopefully in a year's time either Johnny Williams or H.Mallinder could be a real contender at 12.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:05 pm

Daly isn't as proven at 12 as any of these.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:09 pm

And yes the opions in midfield, Slade, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly. Good options now. As you say the coming of mallinder in particular (even though you think he's the best option) think that would be fast tracking which you hate.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:27 pm

The forward battle should be fascinating again in this game.

Front row

Slipper - Cole
Moore - Hartley
Kepu - Mako Vunipola

The pre-game media furore over the scrum worked for Oz at the RWC, will it again here. Kepu should (if fully fit) be a bigger challenge for Mako. Slipper is an experienced campaigner who should play the situation, hype and ref well. Moore on the other hand I would not expect to be as outplayed by Hartley twice in a row.

Second row

Arnold - Itoje
Carter - Kruis

An area that England are clearly looking to drive home an advantage, especially with Simmons injured. I personally wasn't too impressed with Arnold and thought Horwill was excellent when he came on. As an England fan I'm happy that Horwill isn't starting.

Back row

Fardy - Robshaw
Hooper - Haskell
McMahon - Billy V

Anyone's game. Haskell was fantastic at the weekend but has so often failed to back performances like that up. Fardy on the other hand was poor but I can't remember him being that poor twice in a row. Hooper was excellent at the weekend and I'd back him to raise his game again in the absence of Pocock. Billy Vunipola on the other hand looked a bit tired and this game will be very telling as to whether that was physical Australia defence or genuine fatigue.

Whilst many see Jack Clifford on the bench as a reaction to Billy Vunipola being quieter I actually think it's a decision forced by how good Hooper was in the wide channels. He looked a huge threat all game and I wouldn't be surprised if Clifford spends a lot of time man marking him out wide when he is introduced.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yes the opions in midfield, Slade, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly. Good options now. As you say the coming of mallinder in particular (even though you think he's the best option) think that would be fast tracking which you hate.

Tuilagi - unfit, hasn't been able to string a run of games for England for a long time now. He's pretty much a non factor till that happens. A fit Tuilagi for England is a rare sight indeed. Almost up there with a fit Corbisiero....

Slade - unproven at international level

Daly - unproven at international level

Joseph - the only consistent proven performer out of the 4 players.

H.Mallinder is actually a 12 though. I don't hate fast tracking as long as it's well deserved.

Mallinder hasn't been considered for either the full England squad or the Saxons.

Genge and Teo'o are examples of undeserved fast tracking.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:45 pm

So options aren't good options unless proven? But Daly is a better option at 12 than these options. Throw Burrell in there as well.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:16 pm

No way of telling if Genge fast tracking is deserved or not. Again he probably will not feature this time around but will go back to Leicester with a lot of useful experience.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:19 pm

Still don't know what is meant by fast tracked in this context really.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:28 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So prediction time people.

Aus 28 Eng 13 for me

Close call but I think we'll nick the Series tomorrow, 25-28
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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:31 pm

king_carlos wrote:The forward battle should be fascinating again in this game.

Front row

Slipper - Cole
Moore - Hartley
Kepu - Mako Vunipola

The pre-game media furore over the scrum worked for Oz at the RWC, will it again here. Kepu should (if fully fit) be a bigger challenge for Mako. Slipper is an experienced campaigner who should play the situation, hype and ref well. Moore on the other hand I would not expect to be as outplayed by Hartley twice in a row.

Second row

Arnold - Itoje
Carter - Kruis

An area that England are clearly looking to drive home an advantage, especially with Simmons injured. I personally wasn't too impressed with Arnold and thought Horwill was excellent when he came on. As an England fan I'm happy that Horwill isn't starting.

Back row

Fardy - Robshaw
Hooper - Haskell
McMahon - Billy V

Anyone's game. Haskell was fantastic at the weekend but has so often failed to back performances like that up. Fardy on the other hand was poor but I can't remember him being that poor twice in a row. Hooper was excellent at the weekend and I'd back him to raise his game again in the absence of Pocock. Billy Vunipola on the other hand looked a bit tired and this game will be very telling as to whether that was physical Australia defence or genuine fatigue.

Whilst many see Jack Clifford on the bench as a reaction to Billy Vunipola being quieter I actually think it's a decision forced by how good Hooper was in the wide channels. He looked a huge threat all game and I wouldn't be surprised if Clifford spends a lot of time man marking him out wide when he is introduced.

The thing that strikes me about Australia is that they were able to play such an unusual back row combo because they had an exceptional talent available that covered lots of bases. Pocock isn't there so they have thrown in a Hooper mk II. Hooper was terrific at doing the things he does but there is a heap of stuff he doesn't do, and McMahon isn't going to do either.

So in the back row you are left with Fardy having to do a lot of work on the ground as well as everything else he does (including being an option in the lineout).

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Post by rozakthegoon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:32 pm

Totally pooping my pant.

Scared we will get run off the pitch. Hoping we will smash them!

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

beshocked wrote:

Genge and Teo'o are examples of undeserved fast tracking.

To be fair to Te'o, and I hate being fair to him, I believe he made the Pro12 AllStars team.

As to Genge, it is not as if :

a) He was ever planned to play on tour

b) Options were plentiful - Jones et al do not rate Waller, Auterac was unfit and the guys on the Saxons - Hepburn and Waller have not set the world alight so far.



Jones was quite specific that there would be some guys on the tours who were not ready yet but whom they wanted to look at much more closely, in training (I know you do not rate that) amongst their peers.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:47 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:So prediction time people.

Aus 28 Eng 13 for me

Close call but I think we'll nick the Series tomorrow, 25-28

I think we will clinch the series in Sydney - with four second half tries.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 4:06 pm

All this stuff about Te'o being an untried RL convert is in my view incorrect. This is not a bloke who has had a year and has struggled to nail down a place. He has arguably been Leinster's best back for 2 years and would have been competing for the Irish 12 jersey if he had stayed another year.

Funnily enough the Irish have a few top club 12's available to choose from at the moment (McCloskey, Marshall, Henshaw, Olding) and that is not including Aki who will qualify next year as well. England have Burrell, an unfit Tuilagi, a recently rapidly recovered Slade who may have come back too soon, an injury struck Eastmond and a 10 who covers 12 in Farell.

Te'o would struggle to start for Ireland based on players who should be available the next WC cycle based on how good they are now. Williams and Mallinder may get there, but Te'o is better than any of the present options England have. Whether Jones uses him is another argument depending on the playing style and how badly Jones wants Ford to be his starting 10.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 4:20 pm

beshocked wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The same could be said of the BBC.

Should get Tom Jones to be the new Welsh pundit for the 6 nations.... Run notworthy

Get Prince Harry for England.

Sean Connery for Scotland of course though he'll have to get a private jet over from USA.

Rory Mcilrory for Ireland.


It's pipe dream of course but spicing up the commentary would be interesting.

He is too busy playing in the JWC, got his own fan club at the games I have seen. Mind you most are still in school from the look of them

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 5:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Do we all agree that this Aussie team is better than the 2013 version?

Huge favourites again for sure. Probably 15-20 point win for them.

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 5:25 pm

trebellbobaggins wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Do we all agree that this Aussie team is better than the 2013 version?

Huge favourites again for sure.  Probably 15-20 point win for them.
Like last week?

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 5:28 pm

Yup but even more so.  The fierce second best team in the world looking to take revenge on the minnows.  Actually probably a 40,point margin.

But seriously it all depends.  If they are allowed to play at the pace they started last week they could easily win by a big margin.  If England can front up and slow them down it could be much closer.

A wounded Aussie at home have to be favourites by some margin.

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Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Empty Re: Australia v England, 18 June

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 5:41 pm

I am the only one is particularly worried about Hooper? The lad is super quick and a real threat out wide, but is that what you really need in a dog fight?

Pocock is an unbelievable player and gets through a ton of work. I think this allows Hooper to roam somewhat and cause damage with his pace, more an extra back than a loosie. Can he have a similar effect without Pocock? He's had a pretty poor season. I think he's a cracking player, but not really an amazing 7.

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Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Empty Re: Australia v England, 18 June

Post by Poorfour on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:00 pm

Hooper was certainly far less of a threat in the 2012—2015 games when Pocock was injured.
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Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Empty Re: Australia v England, 18 June

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:19 pm

Poorfour wrote:Hooper was certainly far less of a threat in the 2012—2015 games when Pocock was injured.
Yes. A lot of the difference between Australia then and now is a fit Pocock. So it's lucky he now isn't.

Last weekend was the first time we've beaten Australia with Pocock in the side.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:48 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:All this stuff about Te'o being an untried RL convert is in my view incorrect. This is not a bloke who has had a year and has struggled to nail down a place. He has arguably been Leinster's best back for 2 years and would have been competing for the Irish 12 jersey if he had stayed another year.

Funnily enough the Irish have a few top club 12's available to choose from at the moment (McCloskey, Marshall, Henshaw, Olding) and that is not including Aki who will qualify next year as well. England have Burrell, an unfit Tuilagi, a recently rapidly recovered Slade who may have come back too soon, an injury struck Eastmond and a 10 who covers 12 in Farell.

Te'o would struggle to start for Ireland based on players who should be available the next WC cycle based on how good they are now. Williams and Mallinder may get there, but Te'o is better than any of the present options England have. Whether Jones uses him is another argument depending on the playing style and how badly Jones wants Ford to be his starting 10.  

Actually, Te'o has flattered to deceive playing at 12 for Leinster this season. His best games, by far, were in the 13 shirt outside Noel Reid where he was easily one of the best backs in the Pro 12.

I wouldn't expect him to suddenly raise his game at 12 playing for England.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:57 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Hooper was certainly far less of a threat in the 2012—2015 games when Pocock was injured.
Yes. A lot of the difference between Australia then and now is a fit Pocock. So it's lucky he now isn't.

Last weekend was the first time we've beaten Australia with Pocock in the side.

Had to check that. He played in the 2010 Autumn international-  England won 35-18. It must have been the one with that Ashton try

And the June 2010 test which England won 21-20

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Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 5 Empty Re: Australia v England, 18 June

Post by kingelderfield on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:49 pm

The England 12 shirt (only fits the young malleable green wood) - Incumbent; Farrell.

Pretenders in no particular order;Slade, Tuilagi(he's 13 who probably could play outside Cipriani, Ford or Burns, but not outside Farrell - see Burrell), Mallinder, Twelvetrees, Devoto, Hill & ickle Eastmond.

Ofcourse the odds on 36 making a come back seem very long especially while he's stuck in a shed up a blind ally captain. Stranger things have happened and careers can be rectified. The odds are not good though.

As for tomorrow, I guess his scary pace is what has ultimately given Daly his place on the bench, providing cover 13, wing and full back.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:35 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Farrell is sent of for a high tackle, Ford carried off with concussion after tackling the Aussie centres for 40 minutes- leaving us with a backline of:

Care, Youngs; Nowell, Clifford, Daly, Joseph, Brown (with one short in the pack)

Well LT he was second highest tackler last week with 9 after Haskell (18). And he didn't seem concussed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:37 pm

Twelvetrees seems gone and Devoto has been 1 of the poorer tourists for me. I'd agree with beshocked (gulp) to a point Mallinder or Slade depending on team makeup.

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