Australia v England, 18 June

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

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Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 11 Austra10      Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 11 Englan10
AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
18 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
AAMI Park, Melbourne

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

45 Played 45
25 Won 19
1 Drawn 1
19 Lost 25
968 Points 713

B. Recent Form

11 June 2016 - Suncorp, Brisbane: Australia 28–39 England

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 11 Roos10
Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; James Slipper, Stephen Moore (capt), Sekope Kepu, Rory Arnold, Sam Carter, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, Sean McMahon.

Replacements (three to be omitted): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Leali'ifano, Luke Morahan

ENGLAND
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 11 Lion10


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 9:51 am

I would like to see a team like this have a crack -

Mullan, George, P.Hill
Lawes, Itoje,
Robshaw, Clifford, Billy V
Care
Ford
Watson
Farrell
Daly
Yarde
Goode

Mako, LCD, Sinkler, Launchbury, T.Harrison, Teo, Joseph, Youngs

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:28 am

doctor_grey wrote:What does everyone think of our backup front row?  They came on and seemed to provide a little burst of energy without impacting the defensive form of the team.  

The Aussie replacements won a scrum pen and then after sustained pressure with Dan Cole holding up over the line (vintage display from him) the Aussie scrum resumed it's backward motion. If Cole and Mako had got on top of fresh props then ten mins later I'd expect our replacements to be all over their now slightly tired props. Having said that Hill was excellent for so young a tight head. I hope Genge gets a go off the bench in the next test as he is built for this series and loves to have a bit of niggle.

I'd expect the minimal amount of changes necessary as Jones has got his team playing to their strengths and he'll want the whitewash. Haskell will need replacing and he might look at changing the props round a little, Cole looked battered when he came off. Other than Nowell I can't see him tinkering with the starting backs. Jones is canny and so he'll be watching the weather reports before he names his bench

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:33 am

I can see Hill being our starting TH for years to come. His scrummaging isn't at Cole's level currently(which is to be expected at 21) but he seems to be improving all the time. His work around the park is very impressive though, he's going to be a star.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:39 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can see Hill being our starting TH for years to come. His scrummaging isn't at Cole's level currently(which is to be expected at 21) but he seems to be improving all the time. His work around the park is very impressive though, he's going to be a star.

I can see him and Genge forming a formidable partnership internationally whilst knocking lumps out of each other in the Midlands derby domestically. Very good options to have and they combined well against Wales at the start of the summer if I remember rightly.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:50 am

I was surprised when Hill was selected over Brooks, but seeing Hill perform on this stage I can see why.
Brooks just looks like he doesn't want to be involved....perhaps needs the offseason to re-charge.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:50 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can see Hill being our starting TH for years to come. His scrummaging isn't at Cole's level currently(which is to be expected at 21) but he seems to be improving all the time. His work around the park is very impressive though, he's going to be a star.

He has to get past Cole first. Having seemingly finally put the injury problems behind him and with the new management Cole is another player who seems to be reborn. Great options though.

If Genge makes it onto the bench it will cap an astonishing few months.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:51 am

If Hartley is rested, I assume George starts with LCD on the bench

Who do you think will be made captain? Billy V if he starts?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 10:53 am

BamBam wrote:If Hartley is rested, I assume George starts with LCD on the bench

Who do you think will be made captain? Billy V if he starts?

Itoje Yahoo

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Post by boomeranga on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:03 am

yappysnap wrote:

Eddie Jones, the England head coach, is poised to make several changes to his side for the third Test in Sydney on Saturday.

Jones has challenged his squad to respond to their heroic, series-clinching victory in Melbourne like the All Blacks, who he says would “make five changes and beat the opposition 3-0”.

Jones appears to be considering resting several senior players who had only “80 minutes left in them” at the end of a demanding season that began 12 months ago with training camps for the World Cup.

Among those likely be rested, given the demands of one of England’s most outstanding defensive displays, are James Haskell, Mike Brown, Dan Cole, Chris Robshaw and possibly captain Dylan Hartley.


Haskell sustained a minor foot injury during the 23-7 win, while Jack Nowell sustained mild concussion and will have to go through the return-to-play protocol, with Marland Yarde on standby.

Jamie George, Paul Hill, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Jack Clifford and Alex Goode should all be in contention, while Ben Te’o could come on to the bench.

“I’ve written down the 23 for next week,” said Jones. “There’ll be a few changes. When I looked at the team, there were some guys there with only 80 minutes in them. They’ve been up since June last year, some are starting to show signs of battle weariness, so we’re going to have to make changes.”


Jones will also take into consideration any signs of complacency in his squad, who arrived at their Coogee training base on Sunday to ensure there is no let up in intensity as they attempt to complete a clean sweep against Michael Cheika’s side.

“Next week is the most important week, so I’m not getting too carried away,” Jones added. “It’s nice to win, to have the series done, but we want to win 3-0, then no one can argue that you’re not the better team. You win a series 3-0, no one can say it’s this referee’s decision, they did this, that, we weren’t happy with this. You win 3-0, then people have got to say this team is conclusively better than the other team. That’s what we want to be.

“Complacency always sits there. We’ll have to work next week because everyone is going to be good game now: they’re going to get slaps on the backs, their phones are buzzing with ‘Well done’, their agents are on the phone saying, ‘Now we can get you this deal’.

“We’ve got to make sure that we find the 23 players who can fix their minds on the job for next week. Whenever you’ve had a run of wins, the things you stop doing are the little things. So instead of doing that extra 30 minutes of analysis, you stop doing it. This week, the assistant coach was saying, the guy in the video room the most was Chris Robshaw. He keeps putting in that time and effort to be a better player. That’s what I’ll be looking for.”

That relentless pursuit of perfection has been key to England’s revival since the World Cup and Jones was encouraged to see his players already setting their target of a ­series whitewash while they were celebrating their victory just moments after the final whistle.[/code]

They had a pretty good rest at the World Cup. Rolling Eyes

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:28 am

lostinwales wrote:
BamBam wrote:If Hartley is rested, I assume George starts with LCD on the bench

Who do you think will be made captain? Billy V if he starts?

Itoje Yahoo
Farrell seemed to be Vice Capt. when Hartley went off.
Billy V is part of the leadership group too as well as Brown (although likely to be rested).


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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:28 am

Youngs or Care could step into that Captains role too.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:30 am

Must depend on if they think they can get 80 mins out of Billy or if they have to play Clifford at 8 instead

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:32 am

Will be very interesting to see who plays and how they go without Haskell's insane work rate and Robshaw's game reading

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:35 am

boomeranga wrote:They had a pretty good rest at the World Cup. Rolling Eyes
They went straight back to their clubs, so, no, they didn't. Many of them were in the starting XV or on the bench for the opening premiership matches, which they couldn't have done if they'd taken a proper break.


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Post by king_carlos on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:41 am

If those listed (Haskell - already out, Brown, Robshaw and Cole) are actually rested then I expect we will see Itoje shift to 6 and Clifford at 7.

I think Hartley will play given how much they want to attack for the whitewash. George is such a good player we'd lose nothing by starting him though IMO.

1.Mako 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Lauchbury 5.Kruis 6.Itoje 7.Clifford 8.Billy
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Yarde 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Goode

16.George 17.Mullan 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Harrison 21.Care 22.Slade 23.Daly

It's sounding as if we'll see something like that which I'd be happy with myself.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:45 am

I would have thought it would be Lawes/Launchbury in the SR. Kruis looks spent, good though he has been. Itoje to 6 does seem very likely

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 11:55 am

Billy has been quieter as well as Kruis and Mako looked spent by the time he was taken off in T2. One of the few downsides of playing almost every minute of knockout rugby for the Prem and European champs!

Given the changes already coming in the back row I think Jones will start all three but be prepared to bring Mullan, Lawes and Harrison on earlier than he'd usually plan. Similar with George and Daly I reckon who should get much more game time in T3.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 12:19 pm

king carlos you mention playing every minute of knockout rugby I find it strange that E.Jones is planning to play most of the Sarries guys in the last test when they've probably had the highest work loads in the last few months.

Don't get me wrong the likes of Cole,Robshaw and Hartley have worked hard too but the Sarries guys have taken part in more consecutive intense games. I worry that this might lead to injuries in the final test to these guys. The series has been won, it seems a unnecessary risk to play them all.

I like propdavid london's team because it's resting more players who badly need it.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 12:59 pm

I doubt Cole will be rested whilst Mako starts. More likely to see Mako rested and Cole start because as Beshocked mentions Mako has played in two big finals that Cole hasn't and England have experienced backup for Mako (Mullan) where as only 21 year old Hill is there to replace Cole.

Beshocked the test series is won but Eddie will want a white wash. He won't want Australia to take anything positive from these games.

I expect Robshaw will not be rested unless injured. Unless the weather conditions are perfect there's no benefit to Jones replacing both England flankers and Haskell isn't an option at present.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 1:03 pm

Kruis and Brown looked like they need a rest and to me looked to be struggling during the game.

Would make sense to give both Vunipola's a rest but not sure that Jones would want to make two changes to the back row.

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Post by HammerofThunor on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 1:09 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36575306

BBC wrote:Only flanker James Haskell and winger Jack Nowell were unable to take part as England trained in Sydney.

Haskell has a foot injury and is a major doubt to be fit for Saturday, but Jones says the Wasps forward has an "amazing capacity to absorb pain" and could yet be in contention.

Winger Nowell is going through return-to-play protocols after concussion, with Jones set to name his 23-man squad on Thursday.

"In terms of selection we always pick our best 23, and we will be doing that. It's the third Test of the series so we are going to need energetic, physically aggressive players."

Not sure if it's misdirection or genuine. I certainly don't think that Jones or the players think that the job is done now the series is won.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 1:12 pm

I have just finished watching both test matches on you tube. And i would like to say what a great great defence England put up in both test matches. It is aa great triumph for England. not only for the first time they have won a test series in Australia, but the way they over come the defeat to Australia in the world cup. is just remarkable.

I would like to see the team go on and win 3 0, but some of the players looked like they was out on their feet and could really do with a day off.

Well done England for achieving a series win in Australia. And well done Eddy Jones for the work he has done with the same squad that Lancaster started with and making them a better team over all.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 1:14 pm

I saw the "we always pick our best 23" quote, which Jones has used before - usually just before rotating the team. I am sure he will pick the 23 he views as best suited to win the 3rd test, which could of course mean rotating some players based on remaining enrgy levels.

Much will also depend upon expected conditions. The second test lineup was very much sselected with the expectation that, in racing parlance, the going would be heavy. A quicker surface and dry conditions could see some subtle changes and a shift back to the high tempo game we played for most of T1

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 2:26 pm

Agree with all that LT. The Aussies did not select their bench wisely we did. It showed in the second test that we were able to bring a lot more physical forwards on to the pitch that Australia were and it was telling.

Gustard has proven once again that he is a top defence coach. The lines peed and organisation was incredible. Our back line isn't the biggest and is certainly smaller than Australia's but we dominated that physical exchange and put so much pressure in Foley that he was nowhere near his best. Borthwick will want to spend some time on the lineout this week but Hatley will feel happy with the scrum.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 2:37 pm

Our 10-13 combo is dwarfed by Kerevi and Kuridrani, but you'd never think it.

Everyone knows about Farrell's defence, but Joseph is incredibly solid defensively, and Ford made so many tackles

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 2:48 pm

beshocked wrote:king carlos you mention playing every minute of knockout rugby I find it strange that E.Jones is planning to play most of the Sarries guys in the last test when they've probably had the highest work loads in the last few months.

Don't get me wrong the likes of Cole,Robshaw and Hartley have worked hard too but the Sarries guys have taken part in more consecutive intense games. I worry that this might lead to injuries in the final test to these guys. The series has been won, it seems a unnecessary risk to play them all.

I like propdavid london's team because it's resting more players who badly need it.

With Farrell and Billy I absolutely agree, beshocked. Both have had 12 months non-stop with many massive games in amongst them. I also think that EJ will simply view them as too vital to be left out. Billy has no real replacement in the squad unless Clifford is tried at 8, that would mean another change in a back row which is already going to be new. Farrell could be replaced like for like by Slade but I can't see it happening with a whitewash up for grabs and Faz playing this well.

Mako playing all three will be considered reasonable given that he hasn't started many England game he's been involved in. Plus with Marler not touring he will be desperate to show consistency over a series as repeatedly solid set-piece showings have been rarer for him in internationals.

Kruis I would rest given how worn down he's looked and Lawes performing well from the bench. With changes already coming in the pack it may not happen though.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 2:56 pm

BamBam wrote:Our 10-13 combo is dwarfed by Kerevi and Kuridrani, but you'd never think it.

Everyone knows about Farrell's defence, but Joseph is incredibly solid defensively, and Ford made so many tackles

Joseph sums up how vital pace is to be a good defender at 13. It not only allows him to rush up quicker when leading a blitz but also hold his width much better on the drift. Given he has the pace to cut down an outside break he can hold further from his winger for longer to allow his inside man to drift and cut the space on his inside. Then once the inside threat is closed off he can use his pace to drift quickly if the attacker goes for his outside shoulder or rush onto a carrier quickly if they look for contact.

He also reads the game very well and is good at hitting hard and low due to his surprising upper body strength and leg drive.

He's become just as vital to our defence as Farrell now IMO.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 3:15 pm

Joseph is a very intelligent defender and surprisingly powerful, he did however, fall off some tackles in the second half. I think it was a mixture of fatigue and Australia having some good players running down his channel often (law of averages mean you won't make them all). He'll be desperate to keep hold of his shirt for the final test and get his hands on the ball though, the shadow of Manu is still waiting in the wings and Jones will recall him when (if) he's fit again.

Kruis could be dropped for the final test given how Fardy got to him in the lineout and how he ran himself into the floor. Be interesting to see which way Jones goes as I think he likes Launchbury but doesn't wholly trust him at the lineout.

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Post by hugehandoff on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 4:54 pm

I think our best chance of winning the 3rd test is to bring in some fresh players. So many of our players have performed heroics and they are battered and knackered - time to give some very good backups their chance to impress.

Mullan
George
Hill
Launchbury
Lawes
Robshaw
Billy
Clifford
Youngs
Ford
Watson
Farrell
JJ
Yarde
Goode

Bench; Mako, Hartley, Cole, Kruis, Harrison, Care, Slade, Daly

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 4:57 pm

I think the work rate that Launchbury brings will be vital in the 3rd test given that we will almost certainly be without Haskell and possibly without Robshaw. Still if Itoje is at 6 that should help balance out the lineout issues. Crazy that we used to question Itoje's lineout ability really

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 5:00 pm

It was a valid question last year, he's improved leaps and bounds this year. Hope he improves as much next.

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Post by spaynter on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 5:44 pm

I think there are a few reasons why a refresh of personnel would be good:

1 - They went to win the series - Psychologically, it's very difficult to change the goalposts at this stage given the monumental effort the starting teams have made
2 - EJ will rarely, if ever, get a chance to see these players in a 'no lose' test match environment
3 - The Australians won't get a crack at the top team until the autumn. Got to annoy them and add something to the mind games

Imagine what a win would do........

With that in mind, my team would be:

1 - Mullen
2 - George
3 - Hill
4 - Lawes
5 - Launchbury
6 - Billy V (c)
7 - Harrison
8 - Clifford

9 - Care
10 - Slade
11 - Watson
12 - Te'o
13 - Daly
14 - Yarde
15 - Goode

16 - LCD
17 - Genge
18 - Sinkler
19 - Kruis
20 - Robshaw
21 - Youngs
22 - Ford
23 - Burrell

Only Watson and Billy V would start. Would have been Nowell (if fit) as he'd still have had something to prove from the first test. Billy V would get a run at 6 and be captain to give him a refresh and get ready for Nathan Hughes.

Haskell injured too means Robshaw on the bench. Fully rest Mako, Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Farell, Joseph & Brown.

Not a bad mix of experience, youth and debuts, and they'd be told only a win would do. Given the fatigue both mentally and physically of the starting team, I honestly think this team would have the best chance of winning. I just can't see how the starting XV would want it enough.

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Post by offload on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 5:54 pm

If I were Jones I would only make changes due to injury. Stick with the team and try and put Australia to the sword 3 nil. Maybe give a few chances to players and change the bench a bit. Now is the time to twist the knife, plenty of time to rest after Saturday. I think Daly should get at least a half - England need to create a few more midfield options that are are confident with.
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 6:14 pm

What's not to want? Go out there and cement your names in history by white washing the Wallabies in Australia. Become the most famous England side since the 2003 RWC edition. Motivation should not be difficult to find.

Wholesale changes is a big risk and could well see us lose and lose badly. We saw who the midfield defence went to pieces with Burrell at 12 and Farrell at 10. Asking Slade to play at 10 and kick with a rookie international Centre partnership is just stupid. Those three players have no real experience of having played together.

Sticking Billy at 6 is a waste of his abilities and it's also unlikely to be a spot he'll occupy even with Hughes because under the influence of Jones and Gustard our flankers are all about tackle count and work rate. Our Clifford at 6 which is where his international future will most likely be and see if he can impersonate Haskell but with better hands and less penalties.

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Post by spaynter on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 6:41 pm

Probability is that we're going to lose anyway. With the game plan we had in the second test, a slight drop off in intensity and we'd have been well beaten. There's only so many times your objectives can be changed when you've killed yourself getting there.

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Post by offload on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 6:48 pm

spaynter wrote:Probability is that we're going to lose anyway. With the game plan we had in the second test, a slight drop off in intensity and we'd have been well beaten. There's only so many times your objectives can be changed when you've killed yourself getting there.

Sorry but I don't understand this viewpoint at all. I did not see any prospect last Saturday of England being well beaten. England's first choice test XV is more than capable of playing another test and winning it.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 7:10 pm

offload wrote:
spaynter wrote:Probability is that we're going to lose anyway. With the game plan we had in the second test, a slight drop off in intensity and we'd have been well beaten. There's only so many times your objectives can be changed when you've killed yourself getting there.

Sorry but I don't understand this viewpoint at all.  I did not see any prospect last Saturday of England being well beaten.  England's first choice test XV is more than capable of playing another test and winning it.

Probability suggests we'll win considering we've won both games with entirely different gameplans.

The players will be determined to win the series 3-0 and really put Australia to the sword, the odd change here or there is fine but we need Ford/Farrell for instance playing alongside each other as much as possible.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 7:58 pm

There will not be 13 changes, I think we can pretty much all agree on that.

Minimal changes for me. Possible at hooker, LH, 7 and Fullback.

Let's beat this lot 3-0.

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Post by thomh on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 8:33 pm


Spaynter

I see the point about the change in objectives given how knackered some of the players presumably are, but you've massively overdone it there. That side would probably get very badly beaten.

There's also no way that any degree of exhaustion will be evenly spread across the team. Robshaw and Haskell may be beaten up but not all 13 of the ones you've left out.

On a more granular level - if you're going to pick those three back row players then why would you do it in that order?

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Mon 20 Jun 2016, 8:40 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
boomeranga wrote:They had a pretty good rest at the World Cup. Rolling Eyes
They went straight back to their clubs, so, no, they didn't. Many of them were in the starting XV or on the bench for the opening premiership matches, which they couldn't have done if they'd taken a proper break.

I was about to say that.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 5:22 am

Assuming 5 changes maximum then the team for this test is more likely:

Mako
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Itoje
Robshaw
Clifford
Vunipola
Care
Farrell
Watson
Ford
Joseph
Yarde
Brown

That's 4 changes, 3 because of injuries/fatigue, 1 because I'm biased.

Then we have the standard bench:
George, Mullan, Hill, Lawes, Harrison, Youngs, Daly, Goode

Question marks over Harrison and Goode tbh, but otherwise I think that's pretty close.

Bring the subs on much earlier if needed, especially guys like the front 5 replacements.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:13 am

I was just thinking of some trivia.

In 2013, a total of 13 English players (including replacements) toured with the Lions during their 2-1 victory over Australia. Only four of this current squad were there: Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Owen Farrell and Ben Youngs.

More of the players were in the 44 man tour party back in 2010, when we drew 1-1 with Australia: Cole, Hartley, Robshaw, Ben Youngs, Haskell, Lawes and Care.

Care, Cole, Youngs and Lawes all featured in the 2010 win in Sydney (Haskell was on the bench but unused) So, including recent results, all four players have now won three matches against the Wallabies in Australia. That's the most any England players have so far achieved, and they are consecutive wins, since we haven't been down since 2010.

Wilkinson, Tindall And Steve Thompson also have three, since they featured in that 2010 victory, and had the two from 2003.

If you add Lions results, then Ben Youngs, Farrell, Mako Vunipola and Wilkinson (from 2001) have all been involved with four wins over the Wallabies in Australia.

Meanwhile, Dan Cole is the outright leader with five, having played in the second Test in 2010, both Lions wins in 2013, and now two wins in 2016.

I think that must make him the most successful Northern Hemisphere player in terms of results against the Wallabies in Australia.




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Post by englandglory4ever on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:24 am

I think our players looked particularly tired when subbed only 10 mins from the end. Bringing on the bench with 20 to go would be a bit more comfortable for me.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:28 am

englandglory4ever wrote:I think our players looked particularly tired when subbed only 10 mins from the end. Bringing on the bench with 20 to go would be a bit more comfortable for me.

I think it was a tactic by Jones to increase the impact of the subs when they did come on, and they certainly did have an impact. As said before if Haskell was a normal human being he should have been carted off the pitch long before the 70th minute because he looked in pieces

BTW interesting stats Rugby Fan

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:42 am

Jones has been incredibly lucky with injuries so far, especially when you look at what hes asking from his players.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:10 am

After the game I was all up for making some changes.

Now however I think keep it minimal.
Clifford -->Haskell
Yarde -->Nowell

Any other changes should only be made due to absolute fatigue.

I agree with some saying Kruis looked pretty shattered. But its up to him.

Maybe not leave the subs till 70 minutes this time....give them all 40 mins!

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 11:20 am

I'd probably look to freshen up the pack, as they've been heroes all series. You make 5/6 forward subs in a game anyway, so my starters will have all played and be battle ready. The backs I'd then leave by and large as they are, with the potential exception of Nowell and Brown.

With my bench, as much as I'd want to look at Genge and Sinkler, I don't think this is the time and would go with the three starters from the previous two tests to either come on and close the game off in the last 20, or to come on earlier and try to save the game if it goes wrong. My other forward subs would be Harrison and Clifford to bring fresh energy to the back row and hopefully win turnovers and make breaks in the last 30 minutes or so.

Again, in the backs I'd try to go as is and leave Care and Daly on the bench. I'm torn for the last spot between Brown and Slade, it would depend how Slade is training. If it looks like he could come on and slot straight in, I'd go for him. Otherwise, I'd go for Brown as an experienced back-up for the back-three.

My main worry is that we have some squad players who haven't played for a few weeks, and if they come in cold they could cost us. That's not fair on them as it doesn't give them a proper chance to give a good account of themselves, and it's not fair on the team either.

Mullan, George, Hill, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, Yarde, Farrell (C), Joseph, Watson, Goode.
Hartley, Mako Vunipola, Cole, Harrison, Clifford, Care, Daly, Brown/Slade.


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 11:25 am

Rugby Fan wrote:I was just thinking of some trivia.

In 2013, a total of 13 English players (including replacements) toured with the Lions during their 2-1 victory over Australia. Only four of this current squad were there: Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Owen Farrell and Ben Youngs.

More of the players were in the 44 man tour party back in 2010, when we drew 1-1 with Australia: Cole, Hartley, Robshaw, Ben Youngs, Haskell, Lawes and Care.

Care, Cole, Youngs and Lawes all featured in the 2010 win in Sydney (Haskell was on the bench but unused) So, including recent results, all four players have now won three matches against the Wallabies in Australia. That's the most any England players have so far achieved, and they are consecutive wins, since we haven't been down since 2010.

Wilkinson, Tindall And Steve Thompson also have three, since they featured in that 2010 victory, and had the two from 2003.

If you add Lions results, then Ben Youngs, Farrell, Mako Vunipola and Wilkinson (from 2001) have all been involved with four wins over the Wallabies in Australia.

Meanwhile, Dan Cole is the outright leader with five, having played in the second Test in 2010, both Lions wins in 2013, and now two wins in 2016.

I think that must make him the most successful Northern Hemisphere player in terms of results against the Wallabies in Australia.




Cheers for this. Makes very interesting reading.

I think with his injuries and loss of form it's easy to forget just how crucial Cole is. He isn't the all action run a try in from the half way line kind of prop, and he looks like he could be some of the other players dad. But he is a quality technical prop, with a few useful skills out side of the scrum and he grafts.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 11:39 am

I think what Cole does in the breakdown and close in tackle area is huge!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 11:45 am

Cole is arguably the best TH around at the minute, certainly a world class player.

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