Australia v England, 18 June

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

First topic message reminder :

Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 12 Austra10      Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 12 Englan10
AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
18 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
AAMI Park, Melbourne

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

45 Played 45
25 Won 19
1 Drawn 1
19 Lost 25
968 Points 713

B. Recent Form

11 June 2016 - Suncorp, Brisbane: Australia 28–39 England

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 12 Roos10
Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; James Slipper, Stephen Moore (capt), Sekope Kepu, Rory Arnold, Sam Carter, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, Sean McMahon.

Replacements (three to be omitted): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Leali'ifano, Luke Morahan

ENGLAND
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 12 Lion10


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 5:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 11:59 am

I've just had a look at who the referees were for Dan Cole's five wins over the Wallabies in Australia:

Romain Poite - 3 games (!)
Craig Joubert - 1 game
Chris Pollock - 1 game

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:53 pm

Wow just seen Haskells stats from the 2nd test:

31 Tackles
20 Breakdown clear outs
02 Carries
4 Turnovers

The lad needs to work on his carries or he'll be out!!!! Not good enough Shocked Wink laughing

On that level all the challengers (Kvesic, Clifford, Harrison, Underhill, Evans) have to up their game MASSIVELY!!!!

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:32 pm

It seems odd that Kvesic has been ruled out by Jones due to a lack of carrying when both Haskell and Robshaw don't carry much in the current game plan anyway. Perhaps he wants to set a solid foundation by demanding the defensive work rate we've seen then start bringing through players who he thinks can offer that and more in attack - Clifford, Harrison, possibly Ewers on the blindside.

Underhill fits the bill of a huge defensive presence and lots of clear outs perfectly. Plus he is stronger over the ball than Haskell. Probably why Jones is determined to get him involved during the Autumn Internationals or 6 Nations.

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Post by Hood83 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 7:45 am

king_carlos wrote:It seems odd that Kvesic has been ruled out by Jones due to a lack of carrying when both Haskell and Robshaw don't carry much in the current game plan anyway. Perhaps he wants to set a solid foundation by demanding the defensive work rate we've seen then start bringing through players who he thinks can offer that and more in attack - Clifford, Harrison, possibly Ewers on the blindside.

Underhill fits the bill of a huge defensive presence and lots of clear outs perfectly. Plus he is stronger over the ball than Haskell. Probably why Jones is determined to get him involved during the Autumn Internationals or 6 Nations.

Is he?! Blimey I really need to see this guy play. I would love a backrower who could carry as well, but maybe I'm asking too much.

Haskell has been immense. As a long term advocate I'm delighted. Physically we don't have anyone close really, so I hope alongside Underhill we have another Haskell type in the pipeline. We need a backrower who is very powerful, quick (he's surprisingly so I think) and has a massive engine. I'm not sure there are any out there.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 7:53 am

Underhill isn't as big as Haskell, and probably isn't as fast, so he doesn't have the same brute power, but what he does seem to have is the ability to make very good decisions again and again.

He's not a second Haskell. He might be a second Richard Hill.
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Post by BamBam on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:25 am

That young Evans looks like he has something about him too, still a baby but very promising

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:40 am

Underhill is a different player to Haskell, I'm a little surprised with the stats tbh. Underhill is listed as 103kg and Haskell 118kg, I'm not sure either stat is correct.

Underhill is more compact but at least as powerful as Haskell if not more. His trademark has been driving the player back in the tackle and pretty quick around the park. He's certainly better over the ball than Haskell although the latter is no slouch.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:55 am

BamBam - You are right, he looked impressive for the U20s. Hopefully he will get more prem time next season. But how likely is that with Tigers?
And with a name like 'Evans' what are the chances that he will do a Moriarty and jump over the Severn?

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:58 am

Haskells explosive power has been incredible this series, it seems to have become a trademark for him to smash a player back from a standing start.

Any sub would ideally be able to knock people backwards as this gets us on the front foot, and it's something Robshaw doesn't do.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:59 am

Hughes his Wasps team mate will be a massive boost in the AI's.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:09 am

We're certainly building some strength in the backrow.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:18 am

king_carlos wrote:It seems odd that Kvesic has been ruled out by Jones due to a lack of carrying when both Haskell and Robshaw don't carry much in the current game plan anyway.

Are we sure the lack of carrying is why Kvesic has been ruled out? Sure that seems the assumption on here, but I wonder if we should actually be looking at the clearouts stat for guidance. I would lovfe to see Dan Cole's stat for this as at times he seemed fused to Mako, clearing out all his tacklers and preventing the Aussies from jackalling.

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Post by dgttaylor on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:20 am

Hughes and Vunipola both very typical 8's. Will be interesting to see if Jones thinks they can be in the same side. As someone mentioned earlier the Haskell/Robshaw axis has been about engine and basics, not so much carrying. Hughes and Vunipola don't offer the same. Itoje in the side helps with the balance as he can get over the ball but you are still changing the back row dynamic pretty drastically.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:25 am

Hughes had the highest turnovers in the AP the season before last. He doesn't have the work rate of a flanker but seems to be improving all the time.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:It seems odd that Kvesic has been ruled out by Jones due to a lack of carrying when both Haskell and Robshaw don't carry much in the current game plan anyway.

Are we sure the lack of carrying is why Kvesic has been ruled out? Sure that seems the assumption on here, but I wonder if we should actually be looking at the clearouts stat for guidance. I would lovfe to see Dan Cole's stat for this as at times he seemed fused to Mako, clearing out all his tacklers and preventing the Aussies from jackalling.
The main problem with Kvesic is that he is so keen on turnovers he gives away too many penalties.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

Hughes is a straight No8 replacement for Billy.....whats the likelihood of them both being in the same back row?
EJ can stick with the high work rate, defensive 6.5's and then have an all action carrying no.8 - Billy for the gritty gnarly games and Hughes for when it opens up in the last 20mins...rotate the 2 depending on the opposition.

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Post by dgttaylor on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:29 am

As Jones has shown he picks a specific side to try and win each game. Hopefully we reach a stage where the back row depth means we can be pretty adaptable depending on the opposition. That being said most great sides seem to have stuck with the best back row available rather than chopping and changing depending on the situation.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:51 am

Hughes to me is the perfect impact sub, EJ is more then happy to have a 6-2 split on the bench so you could Hughes & Clifford coming on late in the game especially as they're both better lineout options.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:51 am

And to think there was a time when Gaskell was in all the age group backrows...

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:59 am

yappysnap wrote:And to think there was a time when Gaskell was in all the age group backrows...

Scored a try in the 2009 JWC final, though IIRC Homer and Guidford were the players being tipped for a massive career from that game.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:33 am

Underhill isn't as big as Haskell, and probably isn't as fast, so he doesn't have the same brute power, but what he does seem to have is the ability to make very good decisions again and again.

He's not a second Haskell. He might be a second Richard Hill.
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Post by BamBam on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:34 am

Is there an echo in here Poorfour

Wink

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Post by killer938 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:36 am

Evans made a very impressive debut for Tigers last season up against Kvesic actually at the beginning of April. Tigers kept him involved in the squad after that and made 4 appearances in a short amount of time so I would hope that next season he will continue to be involved and develop, especially on the back of what have apparently been impressive performances for the U20s.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:41 am

BamBam wrote:Is there an echo in here Poorfour

Wink

Sorry - late post that my phone decided to hang onto for a while!
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:32 am

killer938 wrote:Evans made a very impressive debut for Tigers last season up against Kvesic actually at the beginning of April. Tigers kept him involved in the squad after that and made 4 appearances in a short amount of time so I would hope that next season he will continue to be involved and develop, especially on the back of what have apparently been impressive performances for the U20s.

He was also selected ahead of two international backrow options for the bench in the playoff semi final. Tigers seem to like an Australia style backrow with two players capable of linking and attacking the breakdown currently we have only two senior backrow options that are adept at playing openside which should mean Evans will get plenty of game time next season. Probably not as first choice but in rotation and covering for injuries, Cockers does bang on about earning the right to wear the shirt and continued to give Evans game time after he impressed on his debut.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:48 am

Standouts from the U20's that I saw were Williams, Evans and Mallinder. Mallinder more because of the kicking and the fact that half the time he's been the biggest guy on the pitch, which is odd for a FH. More so than his general play tbh - but you can see the potential. Williams is both powerful and elusive, and Evans has 'dominated' the breakdown.

But the front row has looked powerful and the pack as a whole dominated a weak Scottish 8.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:58 am

Evans was very impressive on Monday and it was notable that the South African resurgence largely coincided with his yellow. That said, I would say that I haven't really seen Evans against senior opposition, whereas I've seen Underhill play several times with and against the Welsh international back rows and he has consistently been a huge influence on the game.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 1:00 pm

Talk linking Evans to England is far too soon, but he is very promising. He impressed enough in his debut for us against Glaws (most notable moment tracking back to tackle a rampaging Ben Morgan, bouncing straight back to his feet to secure the turnover) that in the run in to the season he made 3 further appearances looking good in each.

Unfortunately he will be reporting back late for pre-season training following the mandatory break after the JWC final, and will have some ground to make up. Hopefully we will see him quite often for Leicester next season.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:01 pm

Another GIF-heavy piece looking at our defence last weekend.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/analysis-snapshot-englands-epic-defensive-display-59076

Interesting stat that Dan Cole held up an Australian ruck ball for 6 seconds on one occasion against four Wallaby attackers. In the World Cup pool loss, Australia were clearing rucks in under three seconds.

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Post by Alex_Germany on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:08 pm

Just in:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jun/22/dylan-hartley-lions-tour-new-zealand-eddie-jones-rugby-union

England’s Teimana Harrison to replace James Haskell for final Test. I'd have gone for Clifford, but I guess Harrison is more of a 7 and Clifford a 6. Whatever that means.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:40 pm

Harrison has a heck of a lot more power so is more like for like.

Clifford a good bench option but not a starter yet IMO

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Post by Hood83 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:45 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Underhill is a different player to Haskell, I'm a little surprised with the stats tbh. Underhill is listed as 103kg and Haskell 118kg, I'm not sure either stat is correct.

Underhill is more compact but at least as powerful as Haskell if not more. His trademark has been driving the player back in the tackle and pretty quick around the park. He's certainly better over the ball than Haskell although the latter is no slouch.

Shame Haskell isn't 10 years younger, I always felt he was criminally under appreciated and underused. If Underhill is as good as people say it would have been a great 6 and 7 combo. I think when Haskell goes we'll need to rethink our backrow, bit of a worry as it can't be long.

Not sure about Harrison, seems more aggressive than powerful and not as athletic as Clifford. Is he a 6 or a 7? What does he actually do superbly?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 7:55 pm

Hood83 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Underhill is a different player to Haskell, I'm a little surprised with the stats tbh. Underhill is listed as 103kg and Haskell 118kg, I'm not sure either stat is correct.

Underhill is more compact but at least as powerful as Haskell if not more. His trademark has been driving the player back in the tackle and pretty quick around the park. He's certainly better over the ball than Haskell although the latter is no slouch.

Shame Haskell isn't 10 years younger, I always felt he was criminally under appreciated and underused. If Underhill is as good as people say it would have been a great 6 and 7 combo. I think when Haskell goes we'll need to rethink our backrow, bit of a worry as it can't be long.

Not sure about Harrison, seems more aggressive than powerful and not as athletic as Clifford. Is he a 6 or a 7? What does he actually do superbly?

Run into space rather than people and make serious yards, slow down opposition ball to the point of being an absolute pest and act as a link in the same manner as Robshaw. Probably quicker than any of the current back three and anybody else barring Clifford ( is there anyone quicker in a back three position?).

Oh, and tackle anything that moves in a different colour shirt.

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Post by Hood83 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 7:56 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Underhill is a different player to Haskell, I'm a little surprised with the stats tbh. Underhill is listed as 103kg and Haskell 118kg, I'm not sure either stat is correct.

Underhill is more compact but at least as powerful as Haskell if not more. His trademark has been driving the player back in the tackle and pretty quick around the park. He's certainly better over the ball than Haskell although the latter is no slouch.

Shame Haskell isn't 10 years younger, I always felt he was criminally under appreciated and underused. If Underhill is as good as people say it would have been a great 6 and 7 combo. I think when Haskell goes we'll need to rethink our backrow, bit of a worry as it can't be long.

Not sure about Harrison, seems more aggressive than powerful and not as athletic as Clifford. Is he a 6 or a 7? What does he actually do superbly?

Run into space rather than people and make serious yards, slow down opposition ball to the point of being an absolute pest and act as a link in the same manner as Robshaw. Probably quicker than any of the current back three and anybody else barring Clifford ( is there anyone quicker in a back three position?).

Oh, and tackle anything that moves in a different colour shirt.

Ah OK, is he really that quick?

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:38 pm

Haskell is 31 so yes I'd agree, criminally underused before Eddie. But again that's the coaches. Lancaster couldn't work him out and MJ favoured Moody, Worselly and some random SA player over him (when he wasn't in NZ).

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 6:02 am

I've been hugely impressed with Harrison in the AP but I was a little disappointed in his England showing.

He looked a little unfit which I've never seen in the AP. He was slow to get off the floor and seemed late to get to the breakdown area. It's obviously early days for him though, he is aggressive and makes yards pretty much every time he carries.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 8:47 am

Seems like theres a lot of selective memory re: Haskell off the back of a few cracking performances.

Aside form that he was in France for a while and therefor effectively unavailable every England manager/coach has given him runs in the side at a variety of positions and he has never been able to hold down a shirt.
And for the most part when he has been given starts hes been the target of endless internet abuse.
Brainless. The Brand. Gym Monkey.
And lets not forget the amount of stick he got for having a shower at the world cup.

I guess you really are only as good as your last game.

I'd find it hard to suatsin an argument that he hasnt been given chances in the past or has been "criminaly ignored".
Possibly misused, espeiclaly under Lancaster, but then many internet experts had him tagged as a long term 8 at various points in his career. So y'know, hindsight and that.

Hes still got 70+ caps, and jsut starting to look like a consitently good player. How much is his fault vs coaches/systems .. *shrug*
Its perhaps notable that Robshaws also having an apparent resurgence in this agressive high tempo set up (ie England laying the way they trained to do at the world cup).
Wouldve been nice to see Burgess at 6 on this tour mind. Oppourtunities missed maybe.

Id concentrate on celebrating Haskell now rather than bemoaning what he has or hasnt done in the past 10 years. Except the work rate has broken him, so maybe its not so smart in the long run.


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Post by lostinwales on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:10 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've been hugely impressed with Harrison in the AP but I was a little disappointed in his England showing.

He looked a little unfit which I've never seen in the AP. He was slow to get off the floor and seemed late to get to the breakdown area. It's obviously early days for him though, he is aggressive and makes yards pretty much every time he carries.

1st cap with the pace of international rugby it's maybe not that much of a surprise. Hopefully having got past that and having spent a decent period in camp with England he'll be more up to speed. He will need to be though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

Completely agree Gooseberry. I'm still not convinced Jones has waved a magic want and we won't see the brainless performances of the past ever again. When he's been on form he's always looked top class, it has always been punctured by stupidness.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely agree Gooseberry. I'm still not convinced Jones has waved a magic want and we won't see the brainless performances of the past ever again. When he's been on form he's always looked top class, it has always been punctured by stupidness.

When he first appeared for England I thought he could turn into an England great. He didn't. But he has had a very interesting career, including spells in France and NZ. The list of NH players who have had a spell playing in NZ post 21 is tiny.

Maybe its all finally paying off

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:43 am

Perhaps too much has been asked of him in the past. He's doing now what he's always been good at, destroying anything that moves.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:57 am

Hmm. He's on good form. I'm not holding my breath it'll continue!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:08 am

Well it's been 7 games of strong showings so far.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:08 am

Fluke given his career.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:11 am

Haskell's performances recently have been a fluke?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:16 am

The consistency based on his career you'd have to say yes.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

I can't agree with that at all.

You can't fluke 7 games in a row. I don't think you can fluke 1 game against top opposition tbh.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:22 am

He's always had great games in the past under all the managers; his top form isn't a fluke. the fact we haven't seen the characteristic awful game is the fluke. If he keeps it going well done to him he's finally grown a brain.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:29 am

Very harsh for me. I think he's been inconsistent in the past for sure but is playing very well.

To describe a players form as a fluke is a bit off imo.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:31 am

The consistency is a fluke. Like you said he's been inconsistant in the past. This is the first time he's kept it going, hence i consider it a bit of fluke so far. If he keeps it going great, don't think he will.

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