New Zealand v Wales, 18 June

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Post by George Carlin on Wed 15 Jun - 0:16

First topic message reminder :

New Zealand v Wales, 18 June - Page 3 All_bl10        New Zealand v Wales, 18 June - Page 3 Wales_10 
NEW ZEALAND v WALES
18 June 2016
19:35 NZST (UTC+12)
Westpac Stadium, Wellington

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

31 Played 31
28 Won 3
0 Drawn 0
3 Lost 28
955 Points 328

B. Recent Form

11 June 2016 - Eden Park, Auckland: 39-21 to New Zealand

22 November 2014 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 16 – 34 to New Zealand

24 November 2012 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 10 – 33 to New Zealand

27 November 2010 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 25 – 37 to New Zealand

26 June 2010 - Waikato Stadium, Hamilton: 29 – 10 to New Zealand

19 June 2010 - Carisbrook, Dunedin: 42 – 9 to New Zealand

7 November 2009 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 12 – 19 to New Zealand

C. Teams

NEW ZEALAND 
New Zealand v Wales, 18 June - Page 3 Kiwi-b10
Israel Dagg; Ben Smith, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Waisake Naholo; Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Dane Coles, Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Jerome Kaino, Sam Cane, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Nathan Harris; Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Patrick Tuipulotu, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, Seta Tamanivalu.

WALES
New Zealand v Wales, 18 June - Page 3 Dragon10
Rhys Patchell, Liam Williams, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Hallam Amos, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb, Gethin Jenkins, Ken Owens, Samson Lee, Luke Charteris, Alun Wyn Jones, Ross Moriarty, Sam Warburton (capt), Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Scott Baldwin, Rob Evans, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Ellis Jenkins, Gareth Davies, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 18 Jun - 19:51

It was another good test match from a spectator perspective. There was a period where we missed too many tackles, Roberts being the first culprit, they killed us off in that period. I was pleased to see us finish more strongly than last week and if we take this forward into next season then we should do well.

I'm happy for Patchell and Williams to continue in the back 3 on a full time basis. I'm usually critical of JD2, especially his passing and kicking. He's still average at the passing and kicking but he is playing very well so kudos JD2.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 18 Jun - 19:54

eirebilly wrote:
brennomac wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Last week, CJ Stander deemed not in a position to contest the ball and red carded for reckless play.
This week an All Black deemed not in a position to contest the ball and penalised for reckless play.

Great consistency that.
+1 just because Williams didn't  land on his head doesn't mean it wasn't a dangerous tackle in the air, Definite sinbin at minimum.  Homer reffing from Peyper

For the record, I believe both were genuine attempts to contest the ball but could be seen as reckless. Yellow cards at best for both but it simply cannot be a red card one week and only a penalty the next, the gulf in punishment is awful.

The AB's really going for it now.

The TMO said it was reckless, and by definition that's a yellow. Naholo also put in a late shoulder charge on Williams later in the game - if it was Liam Williams doing it then he'd be hung out to dry. Luckily he's a solid guy as well as a good player, I'm really impressed with him in recent games.

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Post by eirebilly on Sat 18 Jun - 19:54

mikey_dragon wrote:It was another good test match from a spectator perspective. There was a period where we missed too many tackles, Roberts being the first culprit, they killed us off in that period. I was pleased to see us finish more strongly than last week and if we take this forward into next season then we should do well.

I'm happy for Patchell and Williams to continue in the back 3 on a full time basis. I'm usually critical of JD2, especially his passing and kicking. He's still average at the passing and kicking but he is playing very well so kudos JD2.

Still think that the game changed after Faletau dropped Warburtons pass and the non card for the reckless challenge in the air on Williams. That seemed to be the catalyst that sparked the AB's. Before then, Wales were competing very well so I feel it was more mental than fitness that cost Wales in that mad 20mins.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 18 Jun - 19:56

BamBam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:In the lead up to the try, Liam Williams made and absolute cracking try saving tackle on the big AB wing.

I always judge players against the best and right now in Falatau, Wales have probably the best 8 in world rugby.

Kieran Read is by far the best 8 in the world


Yeah it's definitely Read, and not forgetting Vermeulen. Faletau is rated up there with both of those though. World class Wink.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 18 Jun - 20:01

eirebilly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It was another good test match from a spectator perspective. There was a period where we missed too many tackles, Roberts being the first culprit, they killed us off in that period. I was pleased to see us finish more strongly than last week and if we take this forward into next season then we should do well.

I'm happy for Patchell and Williams to continue in the back 3 on a full time basis. I'm usually critical of JD2, especially his passing and kicking. He's still average at the passing and kicking but he is playing very well so kudos JD2.

Still think that the game changed after Faletau dropped Warburtons pass and the non card for the reckless challenge in the air on Williams. That seemed to be the catalyst that sparked the AB's. Before then, Wales were competing very well so I feel it was more mental than fitness that cost Wales in that mad 20mins.

Did you mean after Warburtons intercept and pass to him? Yes perhaps. The turning point for me was Roberts missing a tackle on Barrett, very uncharacteristic for him but then again he did take a big blow to the head and not go off to rest.

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Post by eirebilly on Sat 18 Jun - 20:03

Yeah mikey I do. Wales were competing well up until then but in the space of 3mins both those incidents happened and it seemed to rock Wales and the AB's jumped into gear.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Sat 18 Jun - 20:06

The All Blacks are still the best advert for the game of rugby union. It's the simple things done well. Watching them is a lesson as well as a pleasure.

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Post by offload on Sat 18 Jun - 20:10

mikey_dragon wrote:
offload wrote:Is Roberts the slowest centre in world rugby?  Nice follow up though.  Hansen will rip the AB's a new one for letting Wales score twice.  

No. That was a sitter for your boy Priestland as well, trust him to balls it up.

My boy?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 18 Jun - 20:29

offload wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
offload wrote:Is Roberts the slowest centre in world rugby?  Nice follow up though.  Hansen will rip the AB's a new one for letting Wales score twice.  

No. That was a sitter for your boy Priestland as well, trust him to balls it up.

My boy?

Is he? I hope not.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sat 18 Jun - 20:47

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The All Blacks are still the best advert for the game of rugby union. It's the simple things done well. Watching them is a lesson as well as a pleasure.

That 15 minute period was just sublime and no one could live with that.
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Post by Shifty on Sat 18 Jun - 21:31

kingjohn7 wrote:Shifty I agree we are looking poor but how do you mean like Hansen did?

Well like this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/1795423.stm
That was the 2002 Wales team in the 6 nations under Graham Henry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/2757909.stm
The above is the 2003 squad under Hansen, he basically kicked out all the under performing players and squad players and replaced them with kids, then built the team that went onto win the 2005 Grand slam, and the squad Gatland inherited.

Personally I'd make Alun Wyn-Jones captain. Keep the likes of North, Faletau, Jonathan Davies, Sampson Lee and Rhys Webb as our senior players. While tying to push through the likes of Moriarty, Beard, Dan Baker, Amos, Morgan, Nicky Smith, and Owen Watkin.

I soubt there would be a lot between the teams anyway at the moment.
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sat 18 Jun - 21:52

JD been very poor overall, Baker nowhere near good enough and Smith has struggled as well.

Did Gatland really inherit Hansen squad or the 2005 squad?
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Post by Knowsit17 on Sat 18 Jun - 21:54

So how was the latest episode of the brave brave show?

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sat 18 Jun - 22:00

?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 18 Jun - 22:01

bedfordwelsh wrote:?

Sums it up. It's best to put him on ignore so you don't have to read the stupid and ill-informed commentary.

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Post by eirebilly on Sat 18 Jun - 22:18

If I was a Welsh fan, I would be looking to refresh the coaching setup. Would still keep Gatland but get some other coaches in there with new idea's. Wales are looking very stagnant right now.

Its hard to see positives after a loss but there are some. Wales were equal with the AB's for large periods of both games and in fairness only one or two sides in the world can contain the AB's to a certain extent when they fire.

Wales are still very much a quality side but they look bereft of ideas at times so a coaching change would help in my opinion.
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Post by Shifty on Sat 18 Jun - 23:43

bedfordwelsh wrote:JD been very poor overall, Baker nowhere near good enough and Smith has struggled as well.

Did Gatland really inherit Hansen squad or the 2005 squad?

I think Dan Baker IS good enough, I think he had a bad start to this season though and it set him back.
He is still only 23 so long way to go yet.

I think if some of those young lads have a chance to develop properly under Gatland and "decent" coaches then they might progress.
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Post by Shifty on Sat 18 Jun - 23:45

Knowsit17 wrote:So how was the latest episode of the brave brave show?

Wrong thread, the BRAVE hearts (Scotland) beat the BRAVE blossoms (Japan) 26-13!

You got served son! tomato
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 19 Jun - 0:38

Shifty wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:JD been very poor overall, Baker nowhere near good enough and Smith has struggled as well.

Did Gatland really inherit Hansen squad or the 2005 squad?

I think Dan Baker IS good enough, I think he had a bad start to this season though and it set him back.
He is still only 23 so long way to go yet.  

I think if some of those young lads have a chance to develop properly under Gatland and "decent" coaches then they might progress.  

Well Faletau is one of the best 8s in the world and our back-row for this NZ tour has been very good. Jenkins is a better 7 than Tips. Where does Baker come into this exactly? Smith is rubbish. Why would you want to fast-track Beard or any other lock when there's already 4 good locks ahead of him? I think your idea is a bit wrong. Agree on changing the coaching staff though, even Edwards.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 19 Jun - 0:40

eirebilly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It was another good test match from a spectator perspective. There was a period where we missed too many tackles, Roberts being the first culprit, they killed us off in that period. I was pleased to see us finish more strongly than last week and if we take this forward into next season then we should do well.

I'm happy for Patchell and Williams to continue in the back 3 on a full time basis. I'm usually critical of JD2, especially his passing and kicking. He's still average at the passing and kicking but he is playing very well so kudos JD2.

Still think that the game changed after Faletau dropped Warburtons pass and the non card for the reckless challenge in the air on Williams. That seemed to be the catalyst that sparked the AB's. Before then, Wales were competing very well so I feel it was more mental than fitness that cost Wales in that mad 20mins.
Think their 2nd try was suspect too ... when Smith kicked ahead to set up the position that lead to the try one of the forwards (Whitelock I think) was in front and then took part in the play to turn the ball over.    Still wouldn't be an AB match if they didn't get at least one try off a forward pass or offside Run

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Post by GavinDragon on Sun 19 Jun - 0:49

ABs are by far the most ruthless, clinical team in World Rugby. They way theey switch on as a team when things are on is impressive. Went after our lineout in a big way and denied us quick ball at every opportunity. All that being said, I am encouraged by how we are becoming more comfortable in the wider channels, and the possession and territory stats back this up. Just need to cut out errors and find try and develop a clinical edge and it will be a closer game next week.

What is frustrating is we will probably go backwards by the time the AI come around.

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Post by Seagultaf on Sun 19 Jun - 3:26

bedfordwelsh wrote:JD been very poor overall, Baker nowhere near good enough and Smith has struggled as well.

Did Gatland really inherit Hansen squad or the 2005 squad?

I thought JD looked pretty good today, getting back to his pre injury form. Fully fit he has quick feet and is seriously quick which makes him really difficult to defend against.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sun 19 Jun - 4:17


Aaron Cruden was taken from the field to hospital for precautionary scans, and there appears to be no serious damage, would love to see Sapoanga get some game time against Wales.

Next stop Dunedin, with the roof closed.

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Sun 19 Jun - 9:04

Took the family to the game. First test for a while. A good day for south Wellington with Barrett, Coles and Savea all playing well. Enjoyed the evening, nopt least because their was an Asian food festival on on the 30 minute walk to the Stadium from Te Papa.

A few thoughts on the game from an Ab's fans perspective. It was a slow game. By that I mean the game took a long time due to injury breaks. The AB's improved their work at the set piece and breakdown. They still have an issue with ball security at times and running the ball with width is relatively high risk in todays game. I expect they'll look to improve for next week.

I think Wales were much improved on last week. I think tactically they were closer to be where they want to be. It'll be interesting next week.

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Post by englandglory4ever on Sun 19 Jun - 16:48

Gutted Wales didn't win. We gotta stop the SH winning. Wales haven't got a pack to compete for 80 mins. Yes, they got some players but need more. That's their problem. The depth just isn't there yet. NZ can sense when the other side is blown and then turn on the afterburners.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 19 Jun - 21:29

Seagultaf wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:JD been very poor overall, Baker nowhere near good enough and Smith has struggled as well.

Did Gatland really inherit Hansen squad or the 2005 squad?

I thought JD looked pretty good today, getting back to his pre injury form. Fully fit he has quick feet and is seriously quick which makes him really difficult to defend against.

He's kicking way to much at the moment and unfortunately they are poor kicks as well, he's also very blinkered in the main at the moment, seems to just look for contact rather than passing the ball.

A lot of our problems at the moment is players like Davies, Williams x 2, AWJ, Warburton and Webb are all coming back after long lay offs, though Webb and Liam Williams seem to be over them.
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Post by Seagultaf on Sun 19 Jun - 22:09

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:JD been very poor overall, Baker nowhere near good enough and Smith has struggled as well.

Did Gatland really inherit Hansen squad or the 2005 squad?

I thought JD looked pretty good today, getting back to his pre injury form. Fully fit he has quick feet and is seriously quick which makes him really difficult to defend against.

He's kicking way to much at the moment and unfortunately they are poor kicks as well, he's also very blinkered in the main at the moment, seems to just look for contact rather than passing the ball.

A lot of our problems at the moment is players like Davies, Williams x 2, AWJ, Warburton and Webb are all coming back after long lay offs, though Webb and Liam Williams seem to be over them.

Kicking deep and taking contact......isn't that Gatland's game plan? JD made the first try with a great break and cut out pass. Took his own try well at the death with a ferocious hand off. Missed a few tackles which could be down to the defensive system which looked rather chaotic at times, is Edwards trying something different? He certainly looked one of Wales better players.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 20 Jun - 10:04

JD2 did a lot wrong despite playing quite well in the overall scheme of things. His passing is terrible, and his left foot is very unpredictable. I know he made the pass for AWJ try, but even a guy who is 6'5/6 had to jump up in the air to catch it! This erratic play is why I've been questioning him constantly keeping his place in the team in spite of his form and lack of playing time. I would keep him in the team for next week, he's a solid option, he makes a lot of ground and his fitness looks very good. In the future I'd like to see Tyler Morgan afforded more opportunities outside of Roberts as opposed to a 13 playing at 12.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Tue 21 Jun - 3:35

Mikey,

Us agreeing on things is becoming a bit regular now Wink
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